Skip to comments.The Mormon Advantage
Posted on 04/05/2007 5:42:47 PM PDT by Utah Girl
Mitt Romney is riding high this week after his victory in "the first primary," which consists of raising cold, hard cash to compete: more than $20 million in the first quarter, $5 million more than his closest contender, Rudy "Lay off my wife!" Giuliani. John McCain came in a lackluster third with $12.5 million.
Romney's campaign benefited from two distinct donor networks, according to media accounts: Wall Street and Mormons. GOP front-runner Rudy, struggling with one of those weird media freak shows erupting around his wife, Judith (her alleged participation in future Cabinet meetings and former puppy killings), must be a little envious on both counts.
Why is it that all the Dem candidates are still married to their first spouse, while among the current crop of leading GOP contenders, the only guy with just one wife is the Mormon?
Truth is, I don't think this is just an accident. There's something about Mormons the rest of us ought to pay attention to: Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do much better than almost any other faith group at sustaining a marriage culture -- and they do this while participating fully and successfully in modern life. Utah is above the national average in both household income and the proportion of adults who are college graduates.
(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...
You are a bigot. Do they teach you that at your church? If so, how can your Church of “we are the only way” be any better than the LDS church?
You’re right. I apologize. Reading such willfully ignorant, hateful rants tends to set me off. I try not to let it, but at times, it’s difficult not to.
I know atheists who are more conservative than you. So...no, it’s not relevant.
>> “Morally, Mitt Romney appears way ahead of his competition”
Appearances can be deceiving. None of us know whether Mitt is a moral person. Just because he’s packaged as such doesn’t make it so.
That’s not the post I was referring to. I am as suspicious of you claiming to know Mormons who say that Mormonism is a cult as I am when Democrats tell me they know Republicans who believe [insert pet liberal project of your choice...impeaching President Bush, the illegality of the Iraq war, whatever]. It’s just ridiculous.
If a man thinks like that, stays married to a wife throughout this life, then is doing to ditch her in the next world, that man isn't worthy to be in the Celestial Kingdom.
when you pose researched facts to a Mormon, the first thing they will do is label you anti-mormon. They will never admit something that their leaders did was wrong, or admit that any doctrinal teaching is wrong. They are trained to not question anything, or they may be called Apostate.
That’s the cult mind; the elimination of critical thinking.
I think the Pope said something like this too.......except he said it about the Catholic church...
Martin Luther declared something very similar.....but you probably know that story.
My observations are....being close to Mormon culture --- but not being a LDS (I belong to my local Methodist Church) is that Mormon Families are at least as functional, happy and healthy as the Evangelical family.....
I have SEEN more than one wife of an Evangelical household breakdown as the facade of a Christian marriage dissolved under scrutiny and charges of hypocrisy, and just plain deceitfulness.
I don't expect ant category of Christian to be perfect .... but I get pretty damn tired of seeing fingers pointing to the "Biggest Sinners"....when the logs stickin' out of everybodies eyes look pretty big to me.
Finally someone says what I have been thinking through many such discussions. I want people to say why their church is so wonderful without tearing others beliefs down and making a judgment call on what is and is not a cult.
Mitt has the values that we should want in our president!
Catholics practice excommunication, I’ve known other “Christians who would either not do business with you or not hire you, or fire you, if you did not agree with their religious views.
Many were killed in the Inquisitions.
So, what is the difference between a cult and a religion?
I figured I just let this reel itself out!:)
People are going to say what they desire to believe, truth need not apply!
This is so bizarre. I grew up in the RLDS, now called the Community of Christ, or something like that.
THEY EXCOMMUNICATED ME because once I moved out of my parents, married then divorced my husband, who’s father was some sort of priest, I told them to buzz off. I think I have the papers somewhere.
But they were the liberal branch that stayed in Independence, MO after the Mormons went to Utah. And I can tell you that while it was a bit goofy at times, it was pretty innocuous. It was nothing compared to what’s being posted here about the Mormons.
And those socalled “fundamentalist” Mormons really creep me out. They’re all on welfare and I think the Mormon church should use some of its Vaticanesque fortune to help clean up the mess of polygamy.
Still. I think Romney is the best candidate so far period. I really don’t think Hilary or Barak can beat him.
The Mormonism bothers me. But, there it is.
The LDS Church has existed for over 150+ years. In that time there have likely been thousands of comments or talks written about the subjects that we are discussing. You are pulling out a handful of quotes and expecting them to fully explain modern Mormon doctrine without considering the likely hundreds of similar quotes and scriptures that also have to be taken into account to see the complete picture.
On the other hand I provided a link to an official website that describes Mormon doctrine in clear easy to understand terms, based for a modern audience. To put it another way, what I stated is what is being taught by Mormon missionaries to Mormon converts, it is what is being taught in Mormon Sunday School. In other words, this is what Mormons really believe about the resurrection and the nature of the husband/wife relationship in heaven.
Look at it this way, consider your faith of choice, if one were to cherry pick quotes from past church leaders it would be possible to present a false notion of what that church believes today on quite a few subjects (Consider Catholics and Galileo for instance).
Oh please, spare us . He walks the walk, he's the real deal . He is a true role model on many fronts , there is no disputing that . I'm a pro-life agnostic, and have no problems with Mitt . He is the last person you have to worry about pushing his beliefs on anyone . In fact , I don't know of any president that has, as of yet . Name one ... I will vigorously defend Mitt against attacks on his faith . It's pure B.S., and a tactic that people use when they are out of psuedo-coherent arguments ....
1. LDS doctrine teaches ALL will be resurrected.
2. LDS doctrine teaches that the level of exaltation one achieves depends on their own personal worthiness, not because of the actions or choices of someone else, including their spouse.
He claims that God appeared to him and handed him the Mormon scriptures on Golden Tablets which suddenly disappeared when he was done translating the Ancient Greek (a language with which he was not acquainted).
The finished book, called The Book of Mormon, is very much like another book published at that time.
God used to be like us but He was really good so He got his own planet and faithful Mormons will be Gods on their own planets too. Polytheistic, not in Christian scripture.
Satan and Jesus are brothers. (Not in Christian scripture). Jesus will come back physically and reign over America.
The other Mormon books , 'The Pearl of Great Price' and 'Doctrine and Covenants' contain archaeological claims which are easily refuted. The Christian Bible is supported by modern archeology.
Mormonism has a process theology, that is, it's scripture may be changed at any time by the current "Prophet" (head of the church). Christianity may not be changed by any man.
God 'revealed' to Joseph Smith that he should take many wives, typical of cult leaders - David Koresh and Jim Jones, etc). You must learn the secret handshake and signs to be admitted to Heaven (stolen from Freemasonry, Joseph Smith was a Mason).
The list goes on and on, I could send you to a website if you really want to know more.
Well, The GOP leaderhsip has turned their backs on conservatives, so why not?
If someone wanted to know who all the Mormons were of FR it wouldn't take them too long on threads like this to figure it out, which does lead me to a political question:
I can understand the Mormons coming to the defense of their doctrine when it is under attack on these threads. You saw the same thing with Catholics at times, as well as proponents of other doctrines being attacked.
But why does there seem to be almost monolithic support of Romney among the Mormon community on FR?
I can understand wanting one of your own in the White House (I'm very glad Carter finally left the Southern Baptist Convention - it was embarrassing). But Romney does seem to have an iffy track record on being a conservative. Being a popular Massachusetts governor is not a badge of honor here.
If Romney claimed to be a Methodist I think he would be hard pressed to find nearly as vigorous a defense on the web.
I will automatically cede the point that there is very little debate on his actual record, and it takes some sifting.
I, for one, am not a Romney supporter. It was funny to say the other day. A friend and I were IMing when I mentioned that I don't care much for Romney. He is not LDS. He had to ask why I did not like Romney, as he didn't think he seemed like a decent candidate.
The snazzy underwear?
You know very little about his personal life. Is he an honest person? Not politically, we know that he does what is politically expedient. Has he been faithful to his wife? I don’t know that and you don’t either.
We know very little about the man, so don’t be so quick to say that he is morally superior to anyone.
“As you can see, Ive been called ignorant, a liar, and a bigot, when all Ive done is point out (with quotes from LDS church teachings) some higher-degree Mormon theology.”
I don’t believe I’ve been party to such insults, I do however stand by my statement that you are incorrect in your understanding of Mormon doctrine.
If you want to know what the LDS Church believes then the best thing to do is to ask them. Here are some good official sources:
Scripture! If something is not scriptural, e.g. believing that Jesus and Satan are brothers, then it is another gospel. Do you remember what Paul said about preachers of another gospel? Read Gal. 1:8-9.
I can understand why when someone's religion and politics are being attacked simultaneously that it's hard to defend one and not the other. That's most likely the reason that his support among Mormons here seems so unified.
Tommy Thompson is also running for President but has almost no support here on FR. Yet from what I've read his record as a governor is much more conservative than Romney's. I know there are many other factors - charisma, name recognition, and money, money, money. The Olympics story is great. I remember seeing Romney on the news personally directing traffic to events.
But if there is any place where true core conservative, constructionist principles were to be the deciding factor among candidates I would think this is it.
For the record, I haven't even come close to picking a candidate to back, and Thompson was only an example.
I am an exmormon.
Not only that but I am from a family of of Mormons that goes back to 1840. Some of my family came to Salt Lake with the first wagon train.
I do not believe in their mythology.
That being said, pbear, if you think you can “prove” another Christian belief system, any better than the Mormons, you should take them on.
So far as I can see there’s not a lot of “proof” to be had.
I don’t have time here to address all aspects of theology. It’s a study that many have spent lives trying to define, and disagreements go on.
All that being said, I won’t vote for Romney in the primaries, but I’d be surprised if almost all Mormons did not.
Also folks ought to look into Mormon history and they would see the link between the early Mormons persecution and how that related to their antislavery leanings which led to their expulsion form Missouri and their continued Republican loyalty to this day. Oh, and even though I'll not vote for Romney in the primaries, I would surely vote for him in the general election, rather than let the 'Rats win. And when all was said and done we could do worse than a Mormon President.
“But why does there seem to be almost monolithic support of Romney among the Mormon community on FR?”
I can’t speak for all those Mormons who post on FR and support Romney but I can provide my guess. If you believe Romney about his conversion from moderate to conservative then he becomes the most electable conservative candidate. I suspect that our shared faith makes us more likely to believe that his conservative views are genuine. In other words, Mormons are more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Er, you might be a little late on that one. Just take the Outer Loop from Georgia Ave to Connecticut Ave, then head on over to Marriott HQ in Bethesda.
Thirty plus years of dehumanizing the alive unborn following the Roe ruling and we have a nation which is not well versed in pro-life issues. Add to that the pernicious media effort to liberalized America and it isn't difficult see why too many Christians do not come out full square in favor of preserving the alive unborn children slaughtered in abortions. We've been programmed to believe the alive unborn are not yet humans!
Mitt Romney has 'evolved' in his understanding of the life of the unborn. A short few years ago, he opposed the Mass. efforts to taxpayer fund embryonic stem cell research and cloning of humans for exploitation. He has given his reason as connected with an awakening regarding how terrible has been the effect of the Roe ruling and subsequent dehumanization of the alive unborn.
I spend no small effort trying to awaken folks' consience to the reality of the alive unborn. That Romney appears to have undergone just such an awakening is most encouraging to me.
One unmeasureable quality in a leader is the application of his moral principles (if we didn't learn that with the degenerate clintons, we need re-edumacation). I can honestly assert that I don't see but two men in the entire two-party field who appear to have fundamental values which would affect their decision making: Hunter and Romney. A Romney/Hunter ticket would win hands down if the American people are awakened to the necessity of moral men to run this nation. Unfortunately, I am not hopeful that Americans will awaken in time to avoid the demise of the Republic when we can't even see clearly the treachery of democrats and the Pelosi in her usurpation of the executive branch.
Newbie, you need to be around a bit longer before trying to throw your dissonance weight around.
“You can bet the Rodham-rodent goon squad will smear the Mormon beliefs to keep Mitt from winning. Will we conservatives allow that to happen?”
Not with the Hildebeast running. She scares conservarives.
"Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163)
I did a search of that phrase. It was quoted many times. While I didn't see it from any official Mormon site I did see it from;
christian apologetics & research ministry (whatever the hell that is)
RUSSPICKET.COM (if Russ Picket says it, it MUST be true!)
members.tripod.com/ApocryphalText/Mormonism.htm (your own website for $1 a month)
I did find this from Yahoo Answers from a Mormon however, "God had a plan already. Satan proposed an alternate plan in which their would be no free will (agency) and Satan wanted all of the Glory, but Jesus said he would do what the Father wanted, giving the Glory to the Father.
The argument that Jesus' brother is Satan is used a lot by people trying to defame Mormons. We believe all people are God's children, including you. This also makes you Jesus' brother, as well as Satan's brother."
This sounds like what almost every faith believes(including yours I would bet), that God created everything. However in context of your charges it basically it sounds to me like you are regurgitating anti-Mormon bias as "facts".
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see."
"God the Father had a Father..."
Yup...Joseph Smith said that in 1844. Again my only source though was anti-Mormon sites. Keep in mind that Martin Luther had a lot of funny ideas too. However unless you are Roman Catholic then it is fair to paint you totally with the brush of Martin Luther if you are going to paint the Mormons with the brush of Joseph Smith.
"God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)"
"The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129)"
"We [the First Presidency of the Church] decided that Bruce R. McConkies book, Mormon Doctrine recently published by Bookcraft Company, must not be re-published, as it is full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has received such wide circulation.--LDS President David O McKay January 8, 1960
"No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant (Journal of Discourses 5:291)"
Well...this was said by the world famous Erastus Snow in 1857.
However you said earlier regarding this, "I have had more than one Mormon wife cry on my shoulder because they lived with the fear that on that day when their Mormon husband is made God over his own planet - that he might not ask him to join her". Now frankly I'm having a hard time buying that. The BS meter went off in my head when I read it and I'm still not buying it. (don't send me a "are you calling me a liar" reply because you already know the answer.)
Thanks for your time. I cannot believe I just spent this much of what could have been quality time answering your bigoted charges.
I'll concede that Joseph Smith was a nut job who likely had a strong personality in that he influenced so many.
I'll concede that Mormonism is a ridiculous religion that no serious thinking person should ever espouse.
I'll concede that catholicism is a ridiculous religion that no serious thinking person should ever espouse.
I'll concede that baseball is a ridiculous sport, and that anyone who would actually pay money to watch it played is an imbecile.
I'll concede that golf is a ridiculous sport,a complete waste of time, and very expensive.
I'll concede a whole lot of things if you'll concede that you really do not know very much about what you are posting about.
I quoted one of your leaders directly - not myself. Apparently they obviously know little... :-)
“when you pose researched facts to a Mormon, the first thing they will do is label you anti-mormon. They will never admit something that their leaders did was wrong, or admit that any doctrinal teaching is wrong. They are trained to not question anything, or they may be called Apostate.”
I’m a Catholic.
That's where the vetting process among hard core voters like those here becomes so important.
Does he have a track record as Governor that supports this conversion to conservatism? That should matter more than anything else in a place like this. I don't know the answer.
Even if he does have a conservative record to back his conversion, does that put him ahead of candidates who have a much longer record of sticking to their principles?
Then the argument that has produced some of the best political debates on FR begins. Do you vote based on electability, an almost impossible to judge yet highly coveted trait, or vote based on conservative principles alone? We'd all like to find Ronaldus Reaganus reincarnated, but it doesn't happen ever election cycle.
I think we'd all love to hash out our doubts here and vote with confidence in November of 2008. Unfortunately, I feel that very few true conservatives have been able to do that in 23 years. In my opinion, the less Freepers that give the benefit of the doubt to any candidate the better at this stage. No one is voting tomorrow.
I will give Duncan Hunter credit for having his son answer questions directly on FR. It's a gutsy move for a smaller campaign walking a tightrope. I'll bet if he shows up in more polls the other campaign from both sides (and their media partners) will kill FR's bandwidth researching and scrutinizing his every response.
And what I said still is true.
Congrats to you for making the break.
If you ever want to know just what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society really believes that is considered to be outrageous, then please hail me for info.
I'll get around to responding eventually.
That goes for pretty much any other "cult" as well.
I did a lot of homework on these things, a good while ago.
I know a lot, but I never get much of an audience anywhere, and so that works out just fine for me.
I'll never be able to say "I told you so" and you'll never have to claim the 5TH!
Of course it is a Christian cult. We "Mormons" are Christians, and we adhere to a "system of religious beliefs and rituals" (which of course is the primary definition of cult.) Thus Mormonism is a "cult" in the same sense that Catholicism is a "cult," the many flavors of Protestantism are "cults," and so on.
The happy family unit is often a facade. . . .
Often? How often? Are apparently happy Mormon families more likely to be putting up a facade to conceal unhappy marriages than are other Christians?
I have had more than one Mormon wife cry on my shoulder because they lived with the fear that on that day when their Mormon husband is made God over his own planet - that he might not ask him to join her. So, she does his every bidding in order to keep Mr. Future-God pacified.
You being more than just a little melodramatic. What you have described is not Mormonism. I have never heard such a doctrine expressed in the LDS Church. Indeed, "neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:11).
Nor do I know any Mormon wife who does her husband's every bidding. (The idea is absurd.) Most of the Mormon women I know are strong and independent, who view themselves as equal partners with their husbands.
In addition, the happy image is necessary in order to progress within the church structure. Its not unlike running for president.
What do you mean "progress within the church structure"? The Church of Jesus Christ is not Amway. We serve in the Church how and where we are called; we do not aspire to careers in the Church structure.
Dont like what Ive laid out here? Well, guess what. Joseph Smith said every other church, except the LDS, is an abomination before God. . . .
Actually, Joseph Smith did not say that exactly. God told him that the man-made creeds were an abomination.
Mormons are a very close knit bunch. For example, when I have moved into a new ward (congregation), it's like I already have friends and/or family there. Most Mormons feel that way about each other and this breeds a strong loyalty to our own. So, for many, Mitt's like family.
Personally speaking, I am loyal to Mitt because I am LDS and I grew up in MA. So, I have known him and his family for most of my life. I worked on his campaign in '94 as a volunteer and briefly as a staffer. He is someone I have looked up to for a very long time both personally and in my business conduct. He is one of the most intelligent, honest, decent and compassionate people I have ever known. I truly believe he would make an excellent President of the United States.
The pro-gay Mitt thing is not a value I’d want.
Remember, there is a man in the White House now who is pro-life, and whom I believe to be a moral man guided by Christian principles. I don't think W. is a phony.
Yet his veto pen is still unwrapped, congressional spending is out of control, and our path towards socialism remains unchecked.
Hopefully, we can find a candidate whose conservatism extends to all areas, not just one. Single issue voters are the mainstay of the Democratic party. I would hate to see both parties fall into that trap.
Well, thanks for at least acknowledging that Mormons are Christians. Mighty big of ya. And "cult," well, I'd agree with that if we're strictly using the dictionary definition:
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
Just as the Baptists are a Christian cult, the Methodists are a Christian cult, etc. Heck, in Latin America, the Catholic Church is known as the Culto Católico.
I've spent much more time talking with Mormon families than you have, and I've never seen anything like what you're describing.
Uh, what exactly have you been reading? The people of the Book of Mormon knew Hebrew and Egyptian, not Greek.
1 Ne. 1: 2
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
The rest of your post is just as inacurate.