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How to Shut Down the IRS(With The Fair Tax)
newsblaze.com ^ | By Congressman Jeff Miller

Posted on 04/19/2007 1:55:56 AM PDT by Man50D

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1 posted on 04/19/2007 1:55:58 AM PDT by Man50D
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To: ancient_geezer; Taxman; pigdog; Principled; EternalVigilance; PhilWill; kevkrom; n-tres-ted; ...

Fair Tax ping!


2 posted on 04/19/2007 2:10:11 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: Man50D
A 23% percent sales tax rate? On every purchase? Oh, that’ll happen.

This is over and above the small detail that the Demonrats are in charge of Congress, so any reform that doesn't make government bigger and more glorious will never see the light of day.

Fair tax = DOA.

3 posted on 04/19/2007 2:12:13 AM PDT by Cheburashka ( World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Man50D

Sounds like a massive tax increase to me.


4 posted on 04/19/2007 2:16:23 AM PDT by Racer1
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To: Cheburashka
This is over and above the small detail that the Demonrats are in charge of Congress, so any reform that doesn't make government bigger and more glorious will never see the light of day.

People had the same skepticism concerning a woman's right to vote but a strong grassroots effort,similar to The Fair Tax, resulted in the 19th amendment.
5 posted on 04/19/2007 2:19:27 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: Man50D

The only way this could work is if there was a constitutional amendment banning payroll taxes, income based taxes, toll roads, excise taxes, fees for service, and all of the other countless gimmes the federal and state governments have imposed over the years. Otherwise, they’ll just want more and they’ll take it. The lawsuit over the phone tax is a classic example. Some people paid that tax for sixty years. They got a $30.00 credit, if they knew enough to take it on this year’s 1040.


6 posted on 04/19/2007 2:23:23 AM PDT by sig226 (Where did my tag line go?)
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To: Cheburashka
A 23% percent sales tax rate? On every purchase? Oh, that’ll happen.

Actually, it's 29.87% when stated as a normal sales tax rate.

If you are comparing it with an inclusive tax rate such as an income tax then it's reasonable to call it 23%, but most people think of sales taxes as exclusive, i.e., calculated on top of the sale, not as part of the sale price.

For instance, if you buy a $100 coat under the FairTax regime, you will pay a total of $129.87 with FairTax included, not $123.

The 23% inclusive rate comes from you paid $29.87 in tax on the whole $129.87 paid out ($29.87 / $129.87 = 23%).

I myself find it very misleading for fellow FairTax advocates to state a sales tax as an inclusive tax rate since virtually no other sales tax is stated as such. I am in favor of a national retail sales tax, but I am not in favor of trying to mislead anyone as to the actual tax rates involved.

7 posted on 04/19/2007 2:28:13 AM PDT by snowsislander
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To: Racer1
Sounds like a massive tax increase to me.

You obviously haven't read the H.R.25,S.1025 or visited Americans For Fair Taxation. I suggest you look at both before making anymore incorrect assumptions.
8 posted on 04/19/2007 2:28:17 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: Man50D
I hope your comments made you feel good, because they do nothing to convince me that this will ever be anything more than a pipe dream.

Dream on, buddy.

9 posted on 04/19/2007 2:35:47 AM PDT by Cheburashka ( World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Man50D

Ping


10 posted on 04/19/2007 3:18:06 AM PDT by PubliusMM (Just doin' my best to stay free and secure. God Bless our military personnel.)
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To: Man50D
A pipe dream it is. Unless, the present tax code, sunsets, 24 hours before any Fair or Flat tax is enacted, we just end up with the present tax and a new tax.

The Fair Tax advocates don’t understand among themselves what their tax will lead to, VAT.

11 posted on 04/19/2007 3:31:28 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: Man50D

This will never happen. Any tax system the feds use is for the manipulation and control of the people first then for revenue collection.


12 posted on 04/19/2007 4:06:54 AM PDT by mosaicwolf
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To: Cheburashka; Man50D
You should read up on the fair tax before slamming it. Currently, massive taxes are built up in the chain of production by the time a product reaches store shelves. The fair tax would eliminate those taxes.

Is it perfect? No system is, but it is a heck of a lot better than the current system which the pols use to reward favored constituencies and punish others. No worry about the Gestapo, er IRS taking your assets without court order.

Investments would be made on the simple desire to make a profit rather than be distorted by the need to avoid taxes.

IMO, the fair tax would unleash a productive era the likes of which have not been seen since before the 16th amendment.

13 posted on 04/19/2007 4:08:29 AM PDT by Jacquerie (Scotus - Buggering the Constitution since 1937.)
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To: Man50D

I’m willing to try anything that will replace this current tribute to Marxism tax we have now. I’m sure the various collectivists who live off the gestapo thievery will squeal, but I don’t care about them.


14 posted on 04/19/2007 4:35:29 AM PDT by sergeantdave (Ice-cubes melting in the sun is an act of God. Get over it, Gore.)
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To: Jacquerie

the fair tax would unleash a productive era the likes of which have not been seen since before the 16th amendment.

Until some politician figures out a way around the "Fair Tax" to promote his own agenda. We see end runs around the amendments to the Constitution alll the time.

15 posted on 04/19/2007 4:40:02 AM PDT by Sarajevo
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To: snowsislander

WRONG! Read the book. The $100 coat has an inbedded tax when you buy it. 23%. If That is removed the coat is actually 77 dollars. Now when you buy the coat add on the 23% and the coat is still a hundred dollars.Not 123.00 Want to get around that? Buy it used and no tax.Same with cars and the like.This is really a great idea because you can decide how much tax you pay not the other way around. Like I suggested. Read the fair tax book.Or you can go to FAIR TAX .ORG.


16 posted on 04/19/2007 4:48:25 AM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Defeat liberalism, its the right thing to do for America.)
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To: Jacquerie
At least with the income tax it has an upper limit. They can only confiscate 100% of your income.

What is there magic about a 23% tax rate? Why not 24%? Why not 50%? Why not 100%? How about 200%?

Answer: there is no magic, there is no limit. They can raise taxes incrementally until you wind up paying $20.00 in taxes to buy $10.00 worth of groceries. And they don’t have to stop there. The sky is the limit.

And the selling point will always be, “Oh, it’s only one more percentage point. How much can that hurt?”

I live in Illinois, and I already pay 8.75% in sales tax. So you’re talking 31.75%. Plus with the abolition of the Federal Income tax they will either abolish the Illinois income tax, or I will still have to go through all the April 15th gyrations in order to calculate my Illinois tax. No saving of my time then, is there? More likely they they would abolish the Illinois income tax and raise Illinois sales tax rates. What do you think the additional rate will be, 8%, 9%, 10%? Now we’re talking a 40% tax rate, and this is just at the introduction of our brave new tax world.

If you want there to be less of anything, tax it. And it will work with this as well. If you tax spending, people will try to avoid spending. Which will kill retailers, anybody who sells.

And the end of IRS audits? Forget it. Once over a third of their receipts are money that the retailer is collecting for the government, the tax audits will become worse, not better. Any mistake anybody selling anything makes on their sales tax returns will put them out of business. There's too much money involved.

I would suggest taking up the repeal of the 17th Amendment. That might actually improve things.

17 posted on 04/19/2007 5:24:09 AM PDT by Cheburashka ( World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Cheburashka

The 23% sales tax would replace the embedded taxes you already pay. The price of most retail items wouldn’t change (or change very little).

And while you’re right about the mentality of a Democratic congress, we can get the FT passed if we apply constant, relentless pressure to congress. The fact that the FT is now being discussed on the House Floor is proof of that.


18 posted on 04/19/2007 5:34:08 AM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: snowsislander

“For instance, if you buy a $100 coat under the FairTax regime, you will pay a total of $129.87 with FairTax included, not $123.”

That is completely wrong. You either haven’t read the Fair Tax plan (or the book that explains it) or you are deliberately misrepresenting it.


19 posted on 04/19/2007 5:40:41 AM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: navyguy
As a retailer I find that the worst taxing authority there is is the state sales tax folks. I hope we're not saying that they get the power to audit, audit, audit the fair tax, because they are truly just like the gestapo.

Also, I'm slightly confused. Lets say I sell a collectors piece of fine art for 10,000. If the tax is inside that number, who eats the 23%?

20 posted on 04/19/2007 5:55:16 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Superiority Compex Folks are Usually Inferior)
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To: Utah Binger

Hi UB,

The Fair Tax only applies to Fed taxes, not state taxes. The state would have no jurisdiction over it so its hard to see how they might use it against you.

Regarding your question... If you have a retail item that costs 100 dollars, about 23% of the cost of that item is embedded fed taxes. The FT eliminates those taxes and replaces them with a retail sales tax. But in the case you mention, where you are dealing with a work of art, I don’t THINK it would be taxed simply because there is no wholesale -> retail markup on it and there are no real embedded taxes. Its an interesting question though. Maybe Man50D or one of the other folks can jump in on this.


21 posted on 04/19/2007 6:01:09 AM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: navyguy
Thanks, I thought someone said the state would be administering the Fair Tax.

Lets say the painting is consigned by the artist. Normal relationships of this type are 60/40. 60% goes to the artist. So, I guess that is the wholesale price. Does the artist have to pay the 23%?

22 posted on 04/19/2007 6:22:24 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Superiority Compex Folks are Usually Inferior)
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To: navyguy
I’m tempted to ask about your bridge investment portfolio in New York City, and whether you want to invest in another.

Instead I will play it straight and simply say I suspect you will be very disappointed in how this taxing scheme works out if you get your wish.

But I have no doubt you will never get your wish as long as the Demonrats are in control, and really doubt this will ever come to pass at all.

23 posted on 04/19/2007 6:26:49 AM PDT by Cheburashka ( World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Cheburashka

“I’m tempted to ask about your bridge investment portfolio in New York City, and whether you want to invest in another.
Instead I will play it straight and simply say I suspect you will be very disappointed in how this taxing scheme works out if you get your wish.”

In other words, you aren’t able to offer any actual evidence that I’m wrong and you’re right, so instead you’ll just make a snarky remark.

Have you actually read the Fair Tax book or the legislation? Yes or no?


24 posted on 04/19/2007 6:31:28 AM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: Man50D

Most Americans have no interest in changing the current income tax system. Which fact grieves me very much...


25 posted on 04/19/2007 7:27:47 AM PDT by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: Utah Binger

Hi UB,

Don’t know the answer to this question but its a good one and I’m going to try and find the answer. I’ll ping you once I know more.

Are you in the art business?


26 posted on 04/19/2007 9:31:58 AM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: Cheburashka
Answer: there is no magic, there is no limit. They can raise taxes incrementally until you wind up paying $20.00 in taxes to buy $10.00 worth of groceries. And they don’t have to stop there. The sky is the limit.

Actually that doesn't make a lot of sense..why? b/c a sales tax is visible and b/c everyone will be paying it. Right now we pay stealth taxes (most people don't even realize how much money they really make..they only know their "take home pay") and 4 out of 10 people pay no taxes....make taxes visible and felt by ALL and there is no way the congresscritters would raise the rate b/c everyone would complain if they did. Everyone would have a vested interest in keeping the rate low b/c everyone's pockets will be hit. Part of the problem with the income tax is the built in class envy, not everyone is responsible to pay it so too many don't give a crap what the rates are. It's not effecting them so why care? Have taxes felt by all and then people will pay attention to what the taxes are rather than the 'who cares as long as it isn't me' attitude we have now.
27 posted on 04/19/2007 9:41:24 AM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: Racer1
Certainly will be for me. If you look on the tax table for single, no dependents and making $99,999 will pay 21,000 (21%)income tax. Seems like even this person will pay a tax greater under the so called “fair tax. Seems a little unfair to me.
I know I wont be able to stand the price of cars or houses or food. I have made over 125,000 and have never paid over 18% income tax. Talk about the Clinton Tax cut killing the economy, a 23% sales tax will bury it
barbra ann.
28 posted on 04/19/2007 10:50:20 AM PDT by barb-tex (Why replace the IRS with anything?)
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To: navyguy
Yes the fed sales tax auditors will be kind and gentle unlike the sales tax people. When pigs fly!. Most will be IRS transfers.
barbra ann
29 posted on 04/19/2007 10:57:54 AM PDT by barb-tex (Why replace the IRS with anything?)
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To: barb-tex

The Fair Tax is about far more than auditors or auditing. I hope you recognize that.


30 posted on 04/19/2007 11:18:32 AM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: barb-tex
What you are not taking into consideration is the corporate taxes that you are already paying, but which you can not see. The costs of good and services would drop under the fair tax b/c employers will no longer be paying payroll taxes...no longer paying their half of Medicare, SS, Unemployment taxes etc..those costs are passed on to consumers now (corporations don’t pay taxes, people do)...so either the costs of goods would go down or salaries would increase....that is what free market competition does. They would no longer have that tax burden and they want to sell their cars so they pass that 'windfall' onto you, the consumer. Under the fair tax the cost of that car you want is no more than it is now.
31 posted on 04/19/2007 11:34:24 AM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: barb-tex
Your comparison of tax rates is flawed. Take the $100k earner paying $21k in taxes (21%) under today's system. Since $21k of their money is gone, it's not available for spending (100k-21k=79k). If their wages and spending habits remain the same with the NRST implemented, they would pay 23% on 79k or 18.2k which is 18.2% of their income.

Additionally, you're assuming that the earner is spending everything they make on new items. Yes, lots of people live that, but many of us also save and buy used items (not subject to the proposed NRST).

With all that being said, I'm not a proponent of the NRST, but I am interested in alternatives to the current system.

32 posted on 04/19/2007 12:07:29 PM PDT by whd23
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To: navyguy

http://www.maynarddixon.com Also art dealers.


33 posted on 04/19/2007 12:14:10 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Superiority Compex Folks are Usually Inferior)
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To: navyguy
I apologize for the first sentence of my post. That was uncalled for.

I used to to believe a national sales tax was the way to go, that it would be an improvement. I changed my mind (although not right away) when the proponents said, “Oops, we made a mistake, the rate can’t be as low as 16-17%, it has to be about 23%.”

The change in rate wasn’t the issue, but it pointed out to me how easy it would be to change the rate. And having experience in the real world, I know the rate will only trend up, not down. Oh, maybe they’ll raise it, say, ten percentage points and give back, say, seven points for a few years, but that’s about it. It’s easy to raise, it’s easy to collect, there's no upper limit, what’s to stop them?

I’ve posted my opinion upthread, I stand by it.

There is no chance that this will pass a Demonrat Congress. That’s a fact of life. There’s too much political hay to be made in, “we’re going to soak the Evil Rich!!!” Ironic, isn’t it? The Demonrats are too obsessed with their hatreds to realize the amount of money they could collect with a national sales tax. Perhaps that is proof that there is a God, and He is good, He made our enemies stupid.

There’s very little chance it will pass in any Congress.

I read national sales tax stuff years ago, the concept hasn’t changed, why should I read it again? So the answer to your question is no, I haven’t read it. I won’t read again it until there’s at least a 20% chance it might actually get passed, and it’s nowhere near that now. What does that prove? It proves I have better things to do with my time.

And to repeat, I apologize for the first sentence of my post. That was uncalled for.

34 posted on 04/19/2007 12:23:44 PM PDT by Cheburashka ( World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: socialismisinsidious
It doesn’t matter whether the tax is visible or not, you have to pay it, or you can’t buy whatever you are trying to buy. When you get down to it, it’s just as insidious as payroll withholding. Unless you plan to stop buying things.

The various “protected classes” will get assurances that their government payments will be adjusted. And hey, the “protected classes” already vote for whomever promises to to put more money in their pockets. They aren’t going to care how the government gets the money.

35 posted on 04/19/2007 12:43:26 PM PDT by Cheburashka ( World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: whd23
Thats all well and good, but what worries me is goods in the pipeline. The Ten Jillion new cars setting on lots will all have the embedded tax.What happens to them. Also we exempt used goods and something else and somthing else and we end up worse than today.
barbra ann
36 posted on 04/19/2007 2:10:40 PM PDT by barb-tex (Why replace the IRS with anything?)
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To: Utah Binger
I hope we're not saying that they get the power to audit, audit, audit the fair tax, because they are truly just like the gestapo.

States could only collect the tax Fair Tax FAQ #25. The federal government would enforce the regulations.

Also, I'm slightly confused. Lets say I sell a collectors piece of fine art for 10,000. If the tax is inside that number, who eats the 23%?

If the piece is used(previous owner)There will be no tax. I'm not sure what you mean by eat but for a new piece the retailer will collect the tax and receive a fee of .25% of federal sales tax collected and remitted Fair Tax FAQ #24. Keep in mind retailers in 45 states already collect a state sales tax so collecting a federal sales tax won't be an additional burden.
37 posted on 04/19/2007 2:35:02 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: barb-tex
Thats all well and good, but what worries me is goods in the pipeline. The Ten Jillion new cars setting on lots will all have the embedded tax.What happens to them. Also we exempt used goods and something else and somthing else and we end up worse than today. barbra ann

The pipeline scenario will be a short situation compared against a long term solution.

Also we exempt used goods and something else and somthing else and we end up worse than today.

Items will not be exempt with the Fair Tax Fair Tax FAQ #4. People will receive a rebate on taxes for necessities, including transportation, up to the cost of living Fair Tax FAQ #3

I suggest you read The Fair Tax(H.R.25,S.1025) first and then ask questions.
38 posted on 04/19/2007 2:58:52 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: Man50D

No, I read what you posted. It seems to me that one giant mess would be replaced by another giant mess. If you want fair tax, just set the rates on an income scale of course and just let it be. No loop holes. No deductions or rebates. Then everyone would know what the rules were and there would be no advantage to paying a high priced accountant to find tax havens and loop holes.


39 posted on 04/19/2007 3:15:47 PM PDT by Racer1
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To: Cheburashka
When you get down to it, it’s just as insidious as payroll withholding.

Uh, no.

The rest of what you wrote is not HR25/S1025. I could sit around and make up stuff of what I think the income tax is going to become, but what good would it do? Best to look at what is has become: it ain't pretty.
40 posted on 04/19/2007 4:30:59 PM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: Racer1
So basically a flat tax? (which our mess of an income tax started as)...I do question why you write: on an income scale of course

It is the 'of course' part that bothers me. Why do we need an income scale? Why can't everyone bear an equal (in %) responsibility in this society? Atlas is gonna shrug.
41 posted on 04/19/2007 4:38:21 PM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: socialismisinsidious

The reason is obvious. A person making 10 grand a year can’t afford to pay as much as a person making 20 million. Its easy for those of us that make more than those making less to say “hey I should only have to pay the same as that person”. The problem is with that we all know that the person making more is just looking for a way to pay less. If we voted all the clowns out of office and get our government back to what it should and was intended to be we could go with a flat tax, but thats never going to happen. Since both parties are corrupt. Personally, I have no pity on the CEO,s making 200 million a year. We all know how the system works that got it for them.


42 posted on 04/19/2007 6:08:52 PM PDT by Racer1
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To: navyguy
"For instance, if you buy a $100 coat under the FairTax regime, you will pay a total of $129.87 with FairTax included, not $123."

That is completely wrong. You either haven't read the Fair Tax plan (or the book that explains it) or you are deliberately misrepresenting it.

My computations are correct. You can also reference the FairTax FAQ #47 on this very subject:

47. I know the FairTax rate is 23 percent when compared to current income and Social Security rate quotes. What is the rate of the sales tax at the retail counter?

30 percent. This issue is often confusing, so we explain more here.

When income tax rates are quoted, economists call that a tax-inclusive quote: "I paid 23 percent last year."; For every $100 earned, $23 went to Uncle Sam. Or, "I had to make $130 to have $100 to spend."; That's a 23-percent tax-inclusive rate.

We choose to compare the FairTax to income taxes, quoting the rate the same way, because the FairTax replaces such taxes. That rate is 23 percent.

Sales taxes, on the other hand, are generally quoted tax-exclusive: "I bought a $77 shirt and had to pay that same $23 in sales tax." This is a 30-percent sales tax. Or, "I spent a dollar, 77 cents for the product and 23 cents in tax." This rate, when programmed into a point-of-purchase terminal, is 30 percent.

Note that no matter which way it is quoted, the amount of tax is the same. Under an income tax rate of 23 percent, you have to earn $130 to spend $100.

Spend that same $100 under a sales tax, you pay that same tax of $30, and the rate is quoted as 30 percent.

Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is under the income tax, controlling the amount of tax you pay is a complex nightmare. Under the FairTax, you may simply choose not to spend, or to spend less.

(I had to reformat the cents character to the word 'cents' since Free Republic's software was rewriting this to a series of nonsense characters.)

You can also reference the tax computation made in the document FairTax Fundamentals and Facts on page #10:

Actual cost of purchasing a $230,000 new home
(wages that must be earned to buy the home)
Component of housing cost Current law FairTax
Home purchase price $230,000 $230,000
Mortgage interest rate 6.6% 4.95%
Interest at rate above for 30 years $298,806 $211,962
Federal taxes $104,854 $69,000
    Income taxes on principal $64,400 $0
    Payroll taxes on principal $17,595 $0
    Income taxes on interest $0 $0
    Payroll taxes on interest $22,859 $0
    FairTax on home purchase price $0 $69,000
Total housing cost including taxes $633,660 $510,962
Difference in total housing costs -19.4%

(Reformatted since the original formatting didn't preserve well with < pre > tags.)

Note that the FairTax is $69,000, which 30% of the $230,000 purchase price, not 23%.

Finally, you can read the actual legislation at the Library of Congress (the least clear of all of the methods, although the origin of my own initial discovery of the 23% being an inclusive rate, not an exclusive one):

SEC. 101. IMPOSITION OF SALES TAX.
 (a) In General- There is hereby imposed a tax on the use or consumption in the United States of taxable property or services.
 (b) Rate-
  (1) FOR 2009- In the calendar year 2009, the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments for the taxable property or service.

"Gross payments" are the complete payment with tax included.

43 posted on 04/19/2007 6:12:13 PM PDT by snowsislander
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To: snowsislander

Your numbers only make sense if the Fair Tax is viewed as an exclusive tax. But he FT is calculated, like the current income tax, inclusively. More to the point, you tried to suggest that if we switched to the Fair Tax things that used to cost 100 dollars would now cost nearly 130 dollars. That is an inaccurate characterization of what would actually happen under the Fair Tax and it maliciously assumes that your readers do not understand the difference between inclusive and exclusive taxes and just what the Fair Tax actually does.


44 posted on 04/19/2007 6:22:15 PM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: snowsislander

Tomorrow, when I have a bit more trime, I’ll try toi get to your information above. My previous post above refers to your original post.


45 posted on 04/19/2007 6:30:25 PM PDT by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)
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To: navyguy; Cheburashka
Your numbers only make sense if the Fair Tax is viewed as an exclusive tax. But he FT is calculated, like the current income tax, inclusively. More to the point, you tried to suggest that if we switched to the Fair Tax things that used to cost 100 dollars would now cost nearly 130 dollars. That is an inaccurate characterization of what would actually happen under the Fair Tax and it maliciously assumes that your readers do not understand the difference between inclusive and exclusive taxes and just what the Fair Tax actually does.

You are somehow misreading my posting in #7. I didn't post any type of comparison of current prices with prices under a FairTax regime. I instead simply posted what tax was due on a $100 retail purchase once the FairTax was enacted. It's $29.87, not $23.

Please go back and re-read my posting at #7 again if you think that I am somehow trying to somehow relate prices today and prices under the FairTax regime.

In fact, let me quote myself from posting #7 (and a small bit from Cheburashka):

A 23% percent sales tax rate? On every purchase? Oh, that'll happen.

Actually, it's 29.87% when stated as a normal sales tax rate.

If you are comparing it with an inclusive tax rate such as an income tax then it's reasonable to call it 23%, but most people think of sales taxes as exclusive, i.e., calculated on top of the sale, not as part of the sale price.

For instance, if you buy a $100 coat under the FairTax regime, you will pay a total of $129.87 with FairTax included, not $123.

The 23% inclusive rate comes from you paid $29.87 in tax on the whole $129.87 paid out ($29.87 / $129.87 = 23%).

I myself find it very misleading for fellow FairTax advocates to state a sales tax as an inclusive tax rate since virtually no other sales tax is stated as such. I am in favor of a national retail sales tax, but I am not in favor of trying to mislead anyone as to the actual tax rates involved.

There is no reference in that to any comparison between today's prices and any possible change in that pricing due to the imposition of the FairTax. Instead, I am just commenting on the actual amount of FairTax exacted on a $100 retail transaction once the FairTax regime is in effect.

I support the FairTax, and I hope to see it enacted. (Had I my druthers, my version of a national retail sales tax wouldn't include the prebate and it would have a lower tax exclusive rate, but even in the current FairTax proposal, I support it since it seems to be the most politically viable version.) But I like to see its 29.87% sales tax rate clearly laid out, and not misunderstood to be a 23% exclusive rate.

46 posted on 04/19/2007 6:54:36 PM PDT by snowsislander
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To: socialismisinsidious
In 1937 Social Security started out as 1% of the first $3,000.00 of pay from the employee, plus 1% of the first $3,000.00 of pay from the employer. Remind me again, what are the current rates in 2007?

Of course the real fun with Social Security will start when the trust monthly payouts exceed monthly payins. Bad news: according to the actuaries that isn’t that far away.

Trying to figure out how the story will end helps you avoid unpleasant ends. But you can always wait until you actually hit the iceberg to start figuring out your options. That worked out well for most everyone on the Titanic, didn’t it?

Moral of the story: learn from the mistakes your country has already made.

Or you can call Cheburashka a party pooper. No skin off my nose. I've given my opinion, I've given my reasons. You go ahead and believe what you want.

47 posted on 04/19/2007 8:20:05 PM PDT by Cheburashka ( World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Racer1
No one said we should "pay the same as that person"...10% of 20 mil is a LOT more than 10% of 10K. Worrying about what other people make and "having no pity" (who the hell said you should) on the so called rich guy is nothing but class envy...this nonsense of they need to pay more b/c "they got the system to work for them" (yeah no sacrifice or work involved....hey has a poor guy ever given you a job? just curious) is pathetic and does nothing but give power to the those that want to tax all of us more. Read the history of taxes and see how your line of thinking has played right into the legislators' hands (hey we sure showed those 'rich people' though).

Thanks to our tax system the guy making 200 mil (those that we all rub our hands in glee over b/c he pays sooooo much in taxes) is probably paying a lower rate than you are b/c he has the the ability to buy advantages and loopholes in our system...so much for class envy. (Kerry paid 12% in Federal taxes in 2003)

It is time to stop boohooing for the poor and make everyone bear some taxes b/c that is the only way they will pay attention to the responsibility required of a Representative Republic..or just continue with the socialist slide this country is on (for the children..sniff, sniff)
48 posted on 04/20/2007 6:09:02 AM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: Cheburashka
Thanks for making my point. The 60K page tax code is a mess of loopholes, class envy and stealth taxes but hey why don't we just keep tinkering with it and maybe we can make it work.

Trying to figure out how a story will end does not tell you how the story will end....the problem is: sit around make up things that might happen AND come up with no other options.

Don't go with the fair tax (or any other reform?) b/c it may become what we already have?...learning from your mistakes does nothing if you don't change anything! Dang that 60K page tax code was a bad socialist idea but we better not change anything or we might end up with a socialist 60K page tax code. sheesh.
49 posted on 04/20/2007 6:19:05 AM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: barb-tex
Sorry barb, you’re asking the wrong person! I’m not a Fair Tax booster or detractor. I just noticed that your comparison of the income tax and sales tax rates was inconsistent.
50 posted on 04/20/2007 6:36:42 AM PDT by whd23
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