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Fair tax proposal could unite country
Atlanta Journal Constitution ^ | April 25, 2007 | KEN HOAGLAND

Posted on 04/26/2007 3:30:39 PM PDT by Wuli

Our income tax system gives foreign manufacturers tax advantages over the "Made in America" label, makes debt more favorable than wealth, and — against all reason — costs taxpayers $265 billion a year in hours and money just to obey the law.

That average citizens are tirelessly inspired to organize and rally for an alternative that is simple, transparent and fair apparently makes Atlanta Journal-Constitution writer Jay Bookman so uncomfortable he resorts to comparisons with cults and misstates the actual tax-inclusive FairTax rate of 23 percent ("Fervent faith in Fair Tax defies reason," @issue, April 23).

In his cranky, contrarian quest to prove to the masses just how wrong they are, he asks how the Fair Tax can be revenue neutral if everyone pays less. First, some will pay more depending on how much they spend — this is a tax on consumption, after all. Secondly, he misses the larger point. Consumption is a far broader base for taxation than earnings and, therefore, generally requires less of each.

Dr. Laurence Kotlikoff, Boston University economist, finds that married couples earning from $30,000 to $50,000 with two children would have a lifetime average tax rate of from 3.4 to 11.1 percent compared to the current tax system's rate of 15.3 to 19.6 percent. This is such a fundamental concept; it is difficult to understand how Bookman missed this bedrock truth about the FairTax.

Under the FairTax, 10 million to...........

(Excerpt) Read more at ajc.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: fairtax
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1 posted on 04/26/2007 3:30:41 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Wuli

Anyone who believes that money is the main motivator in my life, guess again!


2 posted on 04/26/2007 3:37:53 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (THE SECOND AMENDMENT, A MATTER OF FACT, NOT A MATTER OF OPINION)
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To: Wuli
Fairtax.

Live it. Learn it.

3 posted on 04/26/2007 3:40:00 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (Warning. If your tagline is funny... I may steal it.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
Anyone who believes that money is the main motivator in my life, guess again!

Agreed. The old saying is that "money can not buy you happiness"....to which I add "but it can put you in a better bargaining position".

4 posted on 04/26/2007 3:45:59 PM PDT by capt. norm (Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.)
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To: Man50D

Ping


5 posted on 04/26/2007 3:53:34 PM PDT by Normal4me
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To: Wuli
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Folks, we CAN beat the entrenched mess in Malfunction Junction.

But it will take MASSIVE CITIZEN PRESSURE to fill this swamp.

The FairTax ain’t perfect – no tax IS – but it COULD serve as a vital waypoint back to a tax system the Founders MIGHT recognize were they to visit today.

Join the fight!

Every concerned citizen should go to as many Congressional Town Hall Meetings as possible if only because they are great theater. If you can go and PUBLICLY ask your congresscritter something like the following, so much the better:

"Except for several lapses in our national character and a brief period surrounding the War Between the States, for America's first 126 years – statistically, perhaps the most prosperous and free period in our history -- we funded the legitimate and Constitutional functions of government with INDIRECT taxes on consumption. For our first 126 years we held to the tax system the Founders intended here.

“Explain to these good folks why you (do/do not -- as the case warrants) support the Fair Tax (HR 25/S25) which seeks to REPLACE the UNFAIR and INCOMPREHENSIBLE income tax with a FLAT, FAIR national retail sales tax which would eliminate the IRS, one of the most dangerous agencies in government and, not incidentally, require that 12 million illegals pay for some of the welfare and other services they’re currently sucking from the rest of us?"

Remain at the mike and DON'T LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THE OLD POLITICAL TRICK OF ANSWERING SOME OTHER QUESTION.

A few thousand of us doing this on a regular basis will send 'em the message.

6 posted on 04/26/2007 4:01:45 PM PDT by Dick Bachert
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To: Wuli
The only fair tax is to charge everyone the same amount.

One man, one vote, one tax bill.

Once you pay your tax you are free to keep what you earn.

With one tax bill, the politicians can not divide and conquer the people, with schemes to tax the other guy.

7 posted on 04/26/2007 4:12:24 PM PDT by Mark was here (Hard work never killed anyone, but why take the chance?)
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To: capt. norm

Been broke, many times, damn near am now, ain’t a big deal!
If I get hungry I can always go trap a mess of crawdads or shoot a fat squirrel.
Thing is, if I’m not free, I can’t do anything but beg, and starve!
Hell, folks, Rudy couldn’t likely open a can of corned beef hash, without a Redneck to show him how.
If I’m going to call someone a “leader” they should know everything I do, and more!
Hell, if Rudy’s foot caught fire, and 911 didn’t respond, he would burn slap up, when all he had to do was pick which leg to piss down!


8 posted on 04/26/2007 4:18:21 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (THE SECOND AMENDMENT, A MATTER OF FACT, NOT A MATTER OF OPINION)
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To: Dick Bachert
The FairTax is S 1025 this session. I guess the Dems didn't like it getting a small easily knowable number.
9 posted on 04/26/2007 4:19:17 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Parker v. DC: the best court decision of the year.)
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To: Wuli

Politicians use tax money to get themselves elected and re-elected. They’re not about to change anything.


10 posted on 04/26/2007 4:19:43 PM PDT by Savage Beast (Marxism works only in the minds of sociopaths and morons. The Democrat Party is the Party of S&M.)
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To: Wuli

Durn near anything would be better than the current cluster——. I could live with the fair tax quite easily although I prefer the simplicity of a flat tax.


11 posted on 04/26/2007 4:21:08 PM PDT by LibKill ("RUDY GIULIANI" is just "HILLARY CLINTON" misspelled and wearing a dress.)
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To: KarlInOhio

Thanks for the correction.


12 posted on 04/26/2007 4:29:14 PM PDT by Dick Bachert
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

“Anyone who believes that money is the main motivator in my life, guess again!”

Who pays your bills?


13 posted on 04/26/2007 4:32:10 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Normal4me; ancient_geezer; Taxman; pigdog; Principled; EternalVigilance; PhilWill; kevkrom; ...

Thanks for the ping. It’s amazing how many times I read someone attempting to rip apart The Fair Tax with misinformation and no alternatives.


14 posted on 04/26/2007 4:51:58 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
You nailed him.

His view of the world has to go through the MSM, to whom he is heavily dependent at this stage of the game.

I think the liberal media has already selected him as th GOP candidate, mainly because they have a whole arsenal of crap they can rain down on him when the time comes.

Only if it has boiled down to between Rudy and Hillary would I vote for him.

15 posted on 04/26/2007 4:59:09 PM PDT by capt. norm (Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.)
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To: Dick Bachert
The FairTax ain’t perfect – no tax IS – but it COULD serve as a vital waypoint back to a tax system the Founders MIGHT recognize were they to visit today.

Right on the money DB! One founding father was Alexander Hamilton, first Secretary of The Treasury. he stated the following about consumption taxes:

It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed-that is, an extension of the revenue. When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four." If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.
16 posted on 04/26/2007 5:01:12 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: Wuli

“Who pays your bills?”


Don’t have a mess of them to pay! I worked my ass off for close to 50 years, managed to hide a few bucks here and there.
I run around on a $1500.00 Chinese motorscooter, and take pictures with a couple of refurb cameras from Ebay. Not a month goes by when I don’t get word of another government handout I qualify for, if I am willing to stand in a line with a bunch of big fat HO’s! I’m not!
Hell, I could haul my old ass to the “clinic”, and a whole bunch of “doctors” who look amazingly similar to the bastards who flew into New Yorks towers, could just glance at me, and claim compensation!
Wuli, there have been a couple of times in my life when I may have been “scared”, but I had to get over it, or die!
Hell, I started dieing the minute the Doctor slapped my ass! So did you!


17 posted on 04/26/2007 5:02:37 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (THE SECOND AMENDMENT, A MATTER OF FACT, NOT A MATTER OF OPINION)
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To: Man50D

FairTax BUMP!


18 posted on 04/26/2007 5:03:01 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (The decks are cleared for battle - damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!)
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To: Dick Bachert
The FairTax ain’t perfect – no tax IS – but it COULD serve as a vital waypoint back to a tax system the Founders MIGHT recognize were they to visit today.

AMEN Dick Bachert! AMEN!

One thing is for sure! The founders would certianly shake their head in bewilderment at the current mess we call a tax system in this country!

We will never again be a truly free people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS!

19 posted on 04/26/2007 5:11:02 PM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: LibKill
Durn near anything would be better than the current cluster——. I could live with the fair tax quite easily although I prefer the simplicity of a flat tax.

The flat tax is an improvement over the graduated income tax, but it would not produce the windfall in tax revenue that the Fair Tax would (Without any additional burden to the American Taxpayer I might add.) Most people who discuss taxes generally get it wrong because they confuse taxes with tax collection. Under any system, no matter how you structure it, the end consumer pays the tax. It is built into the cost off the goods or service. If there were no taxes, the end price would be lower. When you buy a car, the taxes burden of everyone involved in its finance and production are built into the final price, all of the taxable elements along the way from the shareholders dividend, to the component suppliers to the people who build and sell it. The taxes they pay, all come from the final price paid for the car. Changing the system doesn't change that.

The tax rate in the United States is roughly 20% of GDP. So when you spend money on something, you are paying 20% in taxes. Set up any tax system you want and it will end up working the same. The only way you lower or raise taxes is when the government changes the percentage of GDP they take in. To demonstrate with a simple model, consider if you were to hire a piano teacher for your child. The piano teacher charges a competitive amount for their services plus what is necessary to cover the tax bill. You can have a system where you pay the total amount to the teacher and the teacher sends the tax portion to the government or you can pay the teacher their part and send the government theirs directly. It's the same either way. the consumer is paying the tax. There are only two types of taxes; consumption taxes and wealth taxes. The estate tax and property taxes are examples of wealth taxes. Almost all other taxes are consumption taxes, irregardless of how they are collected. Go ahead and try to define a system where it isn't the end consumer that pays the tax. You'll fail. Under close examination, the real tax payment will always trace back to the consumer.

There is, however, a compelling reason for the fair tax. In the US, roughly 20% of the price of everything is built in tax burden. However when an imported product is sold, that 20% or a large portion of it goes out of the country. The current tax system allows foreign imports to compete against US products which have a 20% tax burden built into them. The fair tax would lower the sticker price of the US product and tax revenue to the government would be the same whether a domestic or import product was sold. It would go a long way in correcting our trade imbalance. Right now foreign companies get nearly 20% bonus revenue vs their domestic competitors. If union members understood how taxes really work, they would take to the streets demanding the fair tax.

The current trade deficit is over $700 billion a year. The Fair tax would trap 20% of that in the country as tax revenue. It would be well over $100 billion a year in additional tax revenue to the government without the American Taxpayer paying one cent more than they do now.

The Fair tax proponents say a rate of 20 - 23% would be necessary to produce the same revenue as the current tax system. They forget the lost revenue leaving the country. By trapping that revenue in the country, a tax rate of more like 17% - 18% would produce the same revenue as the current system.

20 posted on 04/26/2007 5:12:56 PM PDT by CMAC51
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To: capt. norm

“You nailed him.”


Some folks dream of life with more government, I just want to give life a try, with as little crap as possible!
One thing I’m sure of is that you put a Rudy on a flat rock, and put my hillbilly redneck butt on another flat rock, I will likely gain weight!
Hell, I don’t really “hate” Rudy, but the little big city asshole is at least pitiful, and I do pity Rudy!
Rudy is no doubt prepared to prevail in NYC, but NYC ain’t the real reality!
NYC is the boil on my ass that Neosporin may not cure!


21 posted on 04/26/2007 5:19:47 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (THE SECOND AMENDMENT, A MATTER OF FACT, NOT A MATTER OF OPINION)
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To: KarlInOhio

Democrats are hostile to tax payers.


22 posted on 04/26/2007 5:24:07 PM PDT by Son House ( The Presidents enemies, are my enemies.)
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To: Man50D

Thanks for the ping Man50D. Interesting seeing new posters discuss the nrst... well, not new posters... posters new to the nrst...

:)


23 posted on 04/26/2007 5:59:08 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled

I read them all but I learn from the experts on here. ;-)


24 posted on 04/26/2007 6:39:31 PM PDT by Normal4me
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To: Son House

New tag line!


25 posted on 04/26/2007 6:42:45 PM PDT by Son House ( Democrats are Hostile to Tax Payers.)
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To: Normal4me

Good on you normal4me.


26 posted on 04/26/2007 6:46:19 PM PDT by Principled
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

“Hell, if Rudy’s foot caught fire, and 911 didn’t respond, he would burn slap up, when all he had to do was pick which leg to piss down!”

Aren’t you assuming Julie-Annie is still normal? He did attend some public functions in full drag. Wurprise, surprise, surprise! He was no better looking as a female.

But he was just as much a Liberal & gun grabber in drag.


27 posted on 04/26/2007 7:26:31 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principle)
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fairtax site:freerepublic.com
Google

28 posted on 04/26/2007 8:44:52 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Tuesday, April 24, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Wuli

Its easy to understand how bookman misses the issue pertaining to the FAIR TAX, he does’nt! Liberals are scared to death that this will catch on and will remove the bedrock of liberalism.Taking away from those that earn it and giving it to dirtbags that dont(their voters).Socialism and marxism would be damn near impossible to implement with the Fair tax.


29 posted on 04/26/2007 9:19:33 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Defeat liberalism, its the right thing to do for America.)
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To: imahawk

Just shedding the progressive tax would help so
when the tax payers votes for the big spenders they also
are aware they are actually going to have to pay from
their own earnings.


30 posted on 04/27/2007 2:11:02 AM PDT by Son House ( Democrats are Hostile to Tax Payers.)
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To: CMAC51
The current trade deficit is over $700 billion a year. The Fair tax would trap 20% of that in the country as tax revenue. It would be well over $100 billion a year in additional tax revenue to the government without the American Taxpayer paying one cent more than they do now.

Very astute, and I think valid, observation. Add that to the 200 billion or so currently being wasted annually in compliance costs associated with the current system and we begin to see some REAL savings!

And, I might add, our manufacturing base would return virtually overnight as the U.S. would now be the only developed country on earth where business decisions could be made without considering the tax consequences.

31 posted on 04/27/2007 6:51:07 AM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: Mark was here
With one tax bill, the politicians can not divide and conquer the people, with schemes to tax the other guy.

This is the reason they will NEVER pass a "fair" tax. They want control and will not give it up willingly.

32 posted on 04/27/2007 6:55:13 AM PDT by unixfox (The 13th Amendment Abolished Slavery, The 16th Amendment Reinstated It !)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
Been broke, many times, damn near am now, ain’t a big deal! If I get hungry I can always go trap a mess of crawdads or shoot a fat squirrel. Thing is, if I’m not free, I can’t do anything but beg, and starve! Hell, folks, Rudy couldn’t likely open a can of corned beef hash, without a Redneck to show him how. If I’m going to call someone a “leader” they should know everything I do, and more! Hell, if Rudy’s foot caught fire, and 911 didn’t respond, he would burn slap up, when all he had to do was pick which leg to piss down!

LMBO! Thanks. Country boy will survive, BTTT! Blackbird.

33 posted on 04/27/2007 7:23:41 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST ("The best counter to terrorism is shear terror." Blackbird.)
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To: unixfox
This is the reason they will NEVER pass a "fair" tax. They want control and will not give it up willingly.

Exactly, this is what troubles me about all these new tax schemes, it is merely at the end of the day another attempt to "control" the cookie jar.

With one tax bill for all, the control is more on the side of an undivided people.

34 posted on 04/27/2007 7:25:44 AM PDT by Mark was here (Hard work never killed anyone, but why take the chance?)
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To: KarlInOhio
I guess the Dems didn't like it getting a small easily knowable number.

As far as I know, the only presidential candidate openly supporting the FairTax is a Democrat.

35 posted on 05/16/2007 7:36:45 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

The FairTax would give you a monthly check from the government.


36 posted on 05/16/2007 7:41:44 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom

Why the bias Lucy?

THe check is a rebate (in advance) of the taxes that will be paid on necessity level spending - not a gift.


37 posted on 05/16/2007 7:44:04 AM PDT by Principled
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To: imahawk
Socialism and marxism would be damn near impossible to implement with the Fair tax.

Really? What about that monthly prebate check every duly registered household in the US would receive? A little tinkering here, and a little tinkering there, and... But no, politicians wouldn't do that, would they?

38 posted on 05/16/2007 7:48:42 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: Bigun
And, I might add, our manufacturing base would return virtually overnight as the U.S. would now be the only developed country on earth where business decisions could be made without considering the tax consequences.

Cause nobody would be able to figure out our secret weapon. How long do you think that advantage would last?

39 posted on 05/16/2007 7:51:27 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: LibKill
I could live with the fair tax quite easily although I prefer the simplicity of a flat tax.

I think the flat tax keeps the IRS in place and is still easy for the politicians to manipulate.There is still no true accounting of how much comes in and where it all goes as far as the "income" tax is concerned.

There is also no reason for the 16th amendment under the Fair Tax.

The "consumption" tax, the Fair Tax requires far less paper work on your part and the total elimination of the IRS. There is also no reason for the government to have any idea of your income if you are willing to give up the "Prebate".
40 posted on 05/16/2007 7:51:33 AM PDT by BabsC
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To: Principled
THe check is a rebate (in advance) of the taxes that will be paid on necessity level spending - not a gift.

And you don't see anything wrong with the government deciding what my necessity level spending is, or giving me a monthly check to cover the tax on that spending?

The government giveth and the government taketh away; blessed be the government.

The FairTax puts us all on the dole.

41 posted on 05/16/2007 8:02:51 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: BabsC
There is also no reason for the 16th amendment under the Fair Tax.

The Constitution gives the Federal government the right to collect tax on income from work, not the 16th amendment.

42 posted on 05/16/2007 8:07:21 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom
And you don't see anything wrong with the government deciding what my necessity level spending is, ...

I don't think it's great that they decide necessity level spending. I don't think anyone likes that. However, that is not a reason to dislike the nrst - the government currently decides how much they'll exempt from taxation by adjusting marginal rates, exemptions, deductions, and credits. The only difference is the mechanism by which the necessity level spending is exempted from tax. If you oppose the untaxing of some income or some spending, you'll oppose the rebate and you'll oppose today's different marginal rates, exemptions, deductions and credits.

No, I do not oppose being rebated taxes.

43 posted on 05/16/2007 8:33:52 AM PDT by Principled
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To: lucysmom

I thought the 16th allowed tax on income to be unapportioned.


44 posted on 05/16/2007 8:35:13 AM PDT by Principled
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To: imahawk

About the only way they could redistribute under the Fair Tax system would be to increase the “poverty” level to increase the amount of the prebate.

It really irks them, however, that Bill Gates, you, me, and the homeless guy down the street gets the same “prebate”.


45 posted on 05/16/2007 8:39:01 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: lucysmom

They could manipulate the prebate check, but the rules are that every household gets the same amount,

and they’d be pulling their hair out knowing that households that don’t vote for them would be getting the same as those that do.


46 posted on 05/16/2007 8:40:25 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: lucysmom
The Constitution gives the Federal government the right to collect tax on income from work, not the 16th amendment.

Chapter and verse, please.

47 posted on 05/16/2007 8:41:26 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: Principled
A reading of the Pollock v Farmer's Loan and Trust decision should clear that up for you.
48 posted on 05/16/2007 9:01:56 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: MrB
...but the rules are...

And we know the rules never change.

49 posted on 05/16/2007 9:03:28 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom

Sorry Lucy. THe income tax existed before the 16th. Do your own research.


50 posted on 05/16/2007 10:43:44 AM PDT by Principled
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