Posted on 04/28/2007 9:57:35 AM PDT by kellynla
Yeah, turkey's ready for the eu. They may well deserve each other.
That is clearly closer to the spirit of the Lord than the shriveled, dessicated, sick and twisted professions of hatred for those who killed him. Can’t you agree to that?
While I'll agree that hatred is usually extremely destructive, I can't in good conscience agree with this concept of blanket forgiveness for people who haven't asked for it, don't seem to want it, and haven't said they won't do it again. Where's the Godliness in that?
These thugs murdered a man because he was a Christian. Then they seem to be extrememly prideful about doing it. You want me to forgive that? Sorry, not gonna happen.
you seem to be implying that forgiveness implies that I affirm some kind of repentance/faith on the persons part
That's not my position, that's the position espoused in Luke. Don't argue with me, take it up with Luke.
I can understand this poor woman not wanting to be consumed by hatred. But to say that she 'forgives' them isn't based on Scripture. It would have been better for her to say that she loved them anyway and that she would pray for them to see the light, repent, and ask for forgiveness from her and from God.
That would be Scripturally based.
And just for the record I don't hate the thugs who murdered this poor man. I just want them dead.
L
The Christian Bible states that forgiveness is acting as though the sin or transgression never happened. That's stated quite clearly in Matthew I believe.
I thunked it, but wasn't sure of it. Lurker, you have a problem with your definition of forgiveness. This is not a biblical definition of forgiveness. However, If you use that definition, yes, it would be raw stupidity to extend that to wicked men. Jesus said not to throw pearls in front of pigs, implying that we show discretion. I would need VERY specific guidance from God (knowing that my life was soon to end and that I was called to lay it down in this way) to stand at the Dome of the Rock or the gateway to Mecca and proclaim the gospel. My life would be short, and my "forgiveness" would be stupid, if I thought the muslim history of attacking Christians was magically erased. Again, if I used your definition, I could see why you would hesitate to say we should "forgive" the unrepentant, and I would agree with you.
That said, I don't think your definition is biblical, and I don't find it in Matthew, or anywhere else. I do agree that forgiveness means that we no longer HOLD THE PARTY GUILTY as having a debt to us, and in that sense (alone), we treat it as though it never happened. However, forgiveness is not some spritual shock therapy that expunges events from memory and allows us to enter every situation as a virgin. That would be silly.
I believe that Christ died for our sins, so that we are forgiven. By accepting Christ as our Savior, we become a party to this forgiveness. It is Christ who met the conditions of our forgiveness and gives us everlasting life through him. It is not through the power of our actions that we are forgiven, but through the love and grace of God, in spite of our actions.
Your faith requires some kind of qualification process for forgiveness. To me this seems to put the process of forgiveness in control of the sinner and not of God. If God only grants forgiveness to those who ask, isn’t it the sinner that makes the determination of salvation instead of God?
Sure it is:
"I will remember their sins and their iniquities no more." Heb 10:17
It's been really nice chatting with you, but I've got some work to finish. Thanks for the very civil conversation.
Best to you and yours,
L
I understand the revulsion for evil. But I am reminded of yet another story. This one is from John Perkins, who is one of the coolest guys I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. John is a conservative, grass roots libertarian kind of black Christian. He saw years ago that the roots of black poverty and despair come from years of gov't dependency, and that self-reliance was an integral part of the gospel. He became a pastor in Mendenhall MS, and formed a black grocery store, a black dry cleaners, a black service station, sent some nurses and doctors thru school and started a clinic...., all infused with the redemptive message of the Gospel. Mendenhall was 96% black, and this was a REAL threat to the white business community, and John was targeted by the sherriff. Long story short, they brought him in on nothing charges and just beat the living shit out of him. The interesting thing was John's rxn. He said "as I looked up into the face of that man who was raging and hitting me so that I thought I was going to die, I thought 'You are doing this because you are a slave to Satan. You hate me because you don't know the love of God.' And, I felt SORRY for him, and began to pray for him, that God would deliver him from the kingdom of darkness."
That is what I am talking about. It is a supernatural response that is only possible when the Holy Spirit emulates Christ within us, and we cease thinking about the wickedness of men, and start to pray for the One who delivers from wickedness to deliver this man or woman. This is the history of the church when it is persecuted. It is lovely, and it is powerful beyond words.
No idiot prays for persecution, but Christ makes his people absolutely beautiful when it happens. Join me in praying for this woman, and for the conversion of the men who killed her husband, no? If ANYONE has cause to call down the justice of God on them it is her, and yet she prays for mercy for them. Can you or I do less?
almost used the word "dithyramb" but I restrained myself. Good luck with your work. I guess it is obvious to the world that I can't bring myself to get mine started!
Thank you for the story and the comments. You have been an inspiration. I think it is a good thing for me that you haven’t been able to get started on your work.
forgive well, sorta - the idea isn’t to do nothing and let the nutcases kill off all the Christians.
>> The ability to forgive our enemies .....
Screw that. Don’t forgive them. Find them, and kill them.
But also, do not send your missionaries there to teach the nations that they are not Turks. That’s indeed what many of them are doing. Fomenting seperatism.
This is VERY twisted.
Christ is God. He forgave those that crucified Him. We are NOT Christ.
When a mortal commits a crime they need to be PUNISHED if caught. I’m all for forgiveness however that is most likely to happen when the criminal is PUNISHED. It is NOT a sin to punish a criminal when caught. To NOT punish a criminal when caught is WRONG and stands Christianity on its head.
“She didn’t say that. She said she forgave them. Big difference.”
Maybe she meant by forgiving was to not hold anger, rage, or hatred in her heart towards those thugs.
Without repentance, what purpose is served by forgiving? Enabling Moslem murderers to kill again and again doesn't show weakness, it shows stupidity.
Exactly. Further, forgiveness doesn’t relive them of paying a penalty to society. That is part of repentance.
“This is VERY twisted.”
Not really, we Christians are taught to hate the sin and love the sinner.
If the muzzies spent more time “taking out their own trash” instead of making life hell for the rest of us;
we wouldn’t have to “take out their trash” for them.
`
Your answer is both unbiblical and unchristian. sorry. just the way it is.
It has nothing to do with “repentance.” Possibly these men will face justice in this life. If not here, then definitely in the next life, where they will either suffer for this murder or forever extol the praises of Christ who suffered for them. All the folks who object to this woman are VERY confused over the duty of the state, which is to execute justice, and the duty of individual Christians, which is to emulate Christ by forgiving those who trespass against us, praying for their forgiveness, and extending love for hatred. Unless you understand that, you are not a Christian, and I don’t care how orthodox your profession is on other areas.
ping
You are (again) confusing the job of the individual (which is to return good for evil, forgiveness for hate, and blessing for curses) with the state, which is to use the sword to punish evildoers.
Furthermore, the unmitigated GALL of freepers here is astounding. It is unbelievable arrogance for a bunch of biblically and theological semiliterates to come charging in on their white horses critiquing this woman, who has suffered more than you can dream of at the hands of wicked men. To wag your fingers at her from across an ocean, citing some half baked theology that is not scriptural in the first place, correcting a person who is in fact exhibiting the fruits of the Holy Spirit in a supernatural, only shows me how dry, dessicated, and devoid of understanding the "Christian" community is in the USA.
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