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Did the U.S. Contribute in ANY Possible Way to Islamists' Attitudes Prior to 9/11?
Self | 5/16/2007 | DC Wright

Posted on 05/16/2007 1:25:01 PM PDT by dcwusmc

This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection. I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk, but try. Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11? Were our policies in the mid-east in any possible way factors which allowed a nutjob like Osama Bin Awful to recruit moonbats who were and are willing to die to kill "infidels," whether in the U.S. or overseas? If you say "no,' I ask for clear evidence to back you up. If you say "yes," then to what DEGREE did our policies contribute to 9/11 and subsequent attacks and attempted attacks? Which policies and why?

This is in no way to excuse what happened, of course. But to many of you here, it seems we were pure as the driven snow and 9/11 happened out of thin air and is totally inexplicable in terms of our own government's past actions and policies. Since the roots of it go back to Clinton and beyond (I would say at least to Jimmy the Peanut, myself, perhaps sooner), this does NOT constitute Bush-bashing, as some others are wont to claim (again, a kneejerk reaction).

It is my considered opinion that MANY of our presidents have thought so highly of themselves that they could consider that THEY, alone, held all the answers to all the factionalism and all the troubles in the Middle East. That they could, by virtue of their own personalities and whatever, overcome CENTURIES of fighting, infighting, atrocities and counter-atrocities by all these Arabs and Persians and even the Jews. (It seems that throughout history, MOST societies have scapegoated the Jews for all their ills.) Add the witches' brew of Mohammedanism to an already-backwards culture and we have semi-literate people with hair-triggers who WANT to believe the worst about outsiders, Jew OR Gentile. Then give them even the least bit of fact to bite on and a nutcase like Osama can wind up with scores of thousands of wanna-bee martyrs. And WE fell into that trap. When we took sides in their fratricidal civil wars. Even when we abandoned an "ally" and then allowed him into our country for medical treatment... one group took things one way, another took things THEIR way and now it seems we have the three main sects of that false religion after us.

Let me clarify now that I am a fervent supporter of Israel and the Jewish People, God's Chosen. However, I am NOT a supporter of GOVERNMENT AID to Israel. Besides the very questionable constitutionality of it, the aid comes with, in my opinion, way too many strings which inhibit Israel from mounting a proper defense of herself when needed. Also it gives American presidents, who are already too full of themselves, an arrogance that THEY ALONE can surmount the hatreds and ill wills that drive the Muslim countries to want to see Israel eradicated and all the Jews of the world exterminated.

The main problem as I see it is that if we refuse to look beyond our own prejudices and biases to the FACTS, we will LOSE our country and our culture. If we choose to blindly follow dangerous or misguided or even evil policies and policy makers, we will wind up with NOTHING of the once-free nation handed off to us by the Founders. I even sometimes do it, then I have to actually THINK for myself. Mostly I come down on the side that says that the people who attacked us and who continue to act like a plague upon the land should be wiped slick from the earth. However, I often strongly question the MEANS for doing that... and I question the WILL of the Bushites to WIN the war on terrorists and their sponsoring countries. I also have trouble with the name of this: The Global War on Terror. Terrorism is a TACTIC used by those who are too cowardly to come up against an opposing force on an even footing. It is also SPONSORED by certain nations who would see us done ill, but who want to keep their own hands "clean." Thus, there can be NO "war on terror," and it is the semantics which get in the way of WINNING, because there is no way to determine when or if you HAVE won. This is why I, along with others (including a presidential candidate who shall remain nameless), am convinced that we should have had a declaration by the Congress that specifically stated that a state of war exists between the United States and al-Qaeda, the Taliban and any nation which supports or harbors them. That way we would have mobilized our national resources, went on an actual WAR-footing and committed our country and our people and our resources to WINNING this thing instead of having it now to be used as a political football by the Left and the chickenhawks on the right.

So, in hindsight, COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11? Or are we as pure as the driven snow and those nutballs just up and decided to attack us because they could get away with it?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; War on Terror; Your Opinion/Questions
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This is my opinion, natch, but it is also a serious question. If we refuse to actually look into ourselves and only lash out at those who might, we become no better than the hard Left... and some here, IMO, belong there for all their knee-jerkism.
1 posted on 05/16/2007 1:25:09 PM PDT by dcwusmc
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To: dcwusmc; OrthodoxPresbyterian

Ping...


2 posted on 05/16/2007 1:26:18 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: dcwusmc

We existed. We continued to insist that Israel exist as well. Sometimes that’s all it takes.


3 posted on 05/16/2007 1:26:20 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: dcwusmc

They’re still pissed over the USS Constitution beating the Barbary Pirates.


4 posted on 05/16/2007 1:26:52 PM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: dcwusmc

They’re still pissed over the USS Constitution beating the Barbary Pirates.


5 posted on 05/16/2007 1:27:10 PM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: dcwusmc
those nutballs just up and decided to attack us because they thought they could get away with it?

Bingo!

6 posted on 05/16/2007 1:27:49 PM PDT by rocksblues (Do unto others as they do unto you!)
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To: dcwusmc
The main problem as I see it is that if we refuse to look beyond our own prejudices and biases to the FACTS, we will LOSE our country and our culture.

When we blame America for being America, we've already lost.

7 posted on 05/16/2007 1:28:03 PM PDT by jess35
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To: dcwusmc

At the time of the 9/11 attack, we were spending something like $100 million in Afghanistan trying to improve the life of the people there.


8 posted on 05/16/2007 1:28:16 PM PDT by Godzilla (Give me ambiguity or give me something else.)
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To: dcwusmc

The Dems made Bush jump through hoops to start the war in Iraq. What make this guy think they would authorize full mobilization? Just hindsight at its worst.


9 posted on 05/16/2007 1:28:39 PM PDT by golfisnr1 (Democrats are like roaches - hard to get rid of.)
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To: dcwusmc

What is Islam based on?

Mohammed went into “trances” and fits (like epileptic fits) when he was given the “word of God” and would shout out what he was told. These would be written down by his followers. This is the makeup of the Koran.

When Mohammed was just walking and talking and acting like “normal”, his words and deeds were written down by his followers and this went into the Hadith. Now, acting “normal” for Mohammed was taking 12+ wives (including a 6 year old), taking slaves (including sex slaves), executing infidels, conducting raids for treasure, etc.

Now, this is where it gets complicated.

A large part of the words he spoke in trances were “taken back” by Mohammed. He determined them to be the work of the devil (thus they are called the “Satanic Verses” and these are the same verses that Mr. Salman Rushdie got in trouble for writing about).

Now, how Mohammed determined which verses were from God and which were from Satan I do not know.

Also, there were literally dozens of widely different versions of the Koran and Hadith floating around for several hundred years after Mohammed death until a Fatwah was decreed to destroy all but one version. Now, even Mohammed could not remember what he was told by God and forgot it (those are his words as written in the Hadith) so I do not know how the powers in charge decided which was the correct version.

Also according to the Hadith, Mohammed turned people into monkeys, you can determine a child’s sex depending on whether the male or female has an orgasm first (that advice came directly from the Angel Gabriel), dogs and cats are evil and should be killed, that the devil lives in your nose at night (and how to get rid of him in the morning), chess is forbidden, muslims have one intestine while infidels have seven, don’t pray looking up or your eyes will be snatched away, that one wing of a fly is poison but the other is the cure, that drinking camel urine is good for you and I could go on.

And that Mohammed himself didn’t even know if he was going to heaven. If even Mohammed doesn’t know, what chance does the average muslim have?

And for some non-PC info, Mohammed was described as a white man.

Now, if you can bear it, to compare to the Gospels of New Testament.

Jesus was someone who lived a very humble life and was killed for basically saying he was a King and Son of God (blasphemy) by the powers in charge (Roman and Jewish). The government wanted Jesus destroyed and wanted his growing movement destroyed (as it threatened their power). If, after 3 days, the followers of Jesus proclaimed he has risen from the dead, (just as he predicted), and is truly our Savior, the High Officials would have wanted to destroy such a “myth.” They could have easily done this by producing the dead body of Jesus and saying “Your Messiah is still dead and so is your movement” or producing many eye witnesses of the dead Jesus. But they couldn’t.

The letters that make up the New Testament were written by the eye witnesses of the events of Jesus. They were written in just one generation when many other eye witnesses were still alive. They were written without collusion from other Apostles. Even if any of the Apostles wanted to “add” to the “myth” of Jesus, they would have done so in a very disjointed and easily detectable fashion. Yet, the main Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) that describe the life of Jesus are amazingly in harmony with one another and the small differences are consistent with what we would see today if four people witnessed a major event and wrote about the event apart from each other. The Gospels can be traced back to their sources and are basically unchanged from their originals.

The Bible is the most investigated historical document in the history of the world. It has been investigated by scientists, philosophers and archeologists using technology undreamed of when the Bible was written. It is been desperately tried to be “disproved” for over 2000 years, yet, the Bible still stands as the truth.

The stories of Jesus still make sense to us today. It may be because they are true, it may be because they are based in love or it may be because they were written to tell the people of the Word of God.

Regards,

2banana

PS - To sum it up. OBL is being a good muslim. He sleeps like a baby every night knowing deep inside he is doing allah’s work - just as all good muslims before him have done.


10 posted on 05/16/2007 1:28:59 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: dcwusmc

If Ron Paul says it it must be true, right?


11 posted on 05/16/2007 1:29:48 PM PDT by Russ
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To: dcwusmc

Sounds like a Ward Churchill question.


12 posted on 05/16/2007 1:30:04 PM PDT by holfen123
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To: dcwusmc

I say yes but I don’t have the time for a detailed response at this moment.


13 posted on 05/16/2007 1:30:32 PM PDT by The Blitherer ("What the devil is keeping the Yanks?")
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To: dcwusmc

>>>Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11?

Yes and no.

Not officially.

Look to rogues with financial agendas.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1489385/posts
My Enemy’s Enemy by George Crile


14 posted on 05/16/2007 1:31:08 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: dcwusmc
COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11?

Our approach to the Middle East was flawed, and had been flawed for decades. We took a wrong turn and had we behaved differently, I suspect that 9/11 could have been avoided.

Where we went wrong: Jimmy Carter failed to support the Shah of Iran, we allowed Khomenini to come to power in the Iranian Revolution, and we showed enormous weakness during the ensuing hostage crisis.

We lost our best friend in the region
We gained an implacable enemy
We showed that we were push-overs.

A similar mistake was made in Mogadishu under Clinton.

Had the US responded forcefully and refused to backdown, our enemies would not have gathered the strength to attack us on 9/11. Of course, if Reid and the Democrats can get us to surrender in Iraq, we can expect more of the same in the not so distant future.

15 posted on 05/16/2007 1:31:33 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Enoch Powell was right.)
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To: dcwusmc

Read “Krakatoa” and check out the small section of how in 1883, passive muslums were traveling to Meca and coming back militants.


16 posted on 05/16/2007 1:31:47 PM PDT by Zathras
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To: Non-Sequitur

That’s a possibility... I can’t totally discount it. But I have a strong hunch that there’s more to it. Perhaps it’s that there’s a perception of weakness on our part. I know the planning for this started in the ‘90s, during the clown’s watch. But it COULD have been called off had that perception changed after 2000. Why wasn’t it?

Someone once said that muslims are found only in two places: at your throat or under your heel. There may be more than a germ of truth in that.


17 posted on 05/16/2007 1:32:17 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: Godzilla

At least that’s what Charlie Wilson wanted us to think.


18 posted on 05/16/2007 1:32:43 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: dcwusmc

They call us Zionist Crusaders..............must still be pissed about those.


19 posted on 05/16/2007 1:32:49 PM PDT by wolfcreek (DON'T MESS WITH A NATION IN NEED OF MEDICATION !)
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To: dcwusmc

Ron?.. Ron Paul?,,,Is that you?


20 posted on 05/16/2007 1:33:05 PM PDT by lucky american (We cannot direct the wind but we can adjust the sails)
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To: dcwusmc
Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11? Were our policies in the mid-east in any possible way factors which allowed a nutjob like Osama Bin Awful to recruit moonbats who were and are willing to die to kill "infidels," whether in the U.S. or overseas? If you say "no,' I ask for clear evidence to back you up.

One cannot prove a negative. The burden of proof rests with those who make an affirmative claim, that our policy did contribute to 9/11.

21 posted on 05/16/2007 1:33:08 PM PDT by highball ("I never should have switched from scotch to martinis." -- the last words of Humphrey Bogart)
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To: Godzilla

Where in the Constitution does it say we should make it policy to send our tax money to ANY other country other than via private enterprise?


22 posted on 05/16/2007 1:33:47 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: dcwusmc

Sure “we” did. Our government and many of our people refuse to call pure evil what it is, and instead spout endless garbage about how we respect their culture and religion, love how having lots of them come here enriches our nation by making it more diverse, and on and on and on. Instead of treating these people like mortal enemies, we treated them like buddies.


23 posted on 05/16/2007 1:33:57 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Non-Sequitur
Absolutely. The West has acted as a patsy instead of ending these atrocities.
24 posted on 05/16/2007 1:34:11 PM PDT by Diogenesis (Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: dcwusmc

Policies have nothing to do with 911. It is and was and is to be, the religion of Islam and the radical muslims that practice it. They were just being ‘good muslims’ and following what their leader told them to do... which is to murder all infidels. They did it because they were promised an orgy in heaven by a lying, thieving, murdering, raping, pedophile. And if they aren’t murdering the infidels, they are most happy to murder their own kind. Women, children... doesn’t matter. It’s Islam and only Islam. The problem is, is that we are funding them to commit murder by buying their oil to the tune of a billion dollars a day.


25 posted on 05/16/2007 1:34:29 PM PDT by BigFinn
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To: dcwusmc

Sir, I’ve posed this question many times here, inviting critical thinking.

I’ve received only private replies (Freep mail). People seem afraid to discuss it openly here.

It’s an important question for our National Security, and you’ve framed it well. But it’s unlikely you’ll receive a worthy response or serious dialogue.

Thank you for your service to our country.


26 posted on 05/16/2007 1:34:36 PM PDT by Sleeping Beauty
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To: dcwusmc
I’ve read portions on the “koran” and in having done so I realize that our crime....our *only* crime is that we’re “infidels” who refuse to recognize as anything but a worthless bum that clown who befouled a 9 year old girl and called it “holy”.
27 posted on 05/16/2007 1:35:03 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative ("The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism."-Karl Marx)
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To: dcwusmc
"and I question the WILL of the Bushites to WIN the war on terrorists and their sponsoring countries."

When I see the word "Bushites" - it sends up a red flag to me.

28 posted on 05/16/2007 1:35:19 PM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: dcwusmc
All I know is the world has had biases against the USA for years. We have had biases against others for years. For every action there is a reaction. You can analyze this until your nut are blue and come up with many conclusions.
The big question is this. How do you do ANYTHING in your own interest and not negatively affect SOMEONE? Try it at work and in normal life. ANYTHING you do will affect different people in different ways. And there is not a DAMN thing you can do about it.
29 posted on 05/16/2007 1:36:05 PM PDT by hophead
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To: dcwusmc; OrthodoxPresbyterian

One of my professors in law school made a very convincing argument that Islamic terrorism is a response to globalization, an attempt to reject the perceived excesses of Westernization by being other-worldly.


30 posted on 05/16/2007 1:36:44 PM PDT by jude24 (Seen in Beijing: "Shangri-La is in you mind, but your Buffalo is not.")
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To: 2banana

Thanks. Well thought-out reply!


31 posted on 05/16/2007 1:36:49 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: dcwusmc

No. Islam has been that way for 1400 years. When it’s weak, which it often is because it creates only dysfunctional cultures, it’s quiet. When it gets strong (as it has because of oil money), it attacks. Even our breathing would be enough for them to attack us.


32 posted on 05/16/2007 1:36:54 PM PDT by livius
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To: highball

Exactly what I was thinking. Pretty absurd post acually.


33 posted on 05/16/2007 1:36:58 PM PDT by sonic109
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To: dcwusmc
Well, Osama gives his reasons for calling for the killing of all Americans in two of his now infamous fatwas of 1996 and 1998. In both he calls for the killing of all Americans in part because of the first Iraq War and the subsequent sanctions that he incorrectly blames on the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children.

Other reasons are that we plunder their treasure (oil), although we actually buy it. And he states additional reasons of having US Army bases on Saudi Arabia soil. And throw in the Palestine issue and you pretty much got all his reasons.

Do a search on:
"Osama fatwa 1996"
"Osama fatwa 1998"

34 posted on 05/16/2007 1:37:05 PM PDT by avacado
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To: dcwusmc
That is like asking a battered wife, if she contributed in any way to her condition, or the mother of a suicide the same. One can argue, that we had some input, but it is mostly merely existing, as a Christian nation.
35 posted on 05/16/2007 1:37:28 PM PDT by NathanR (Apr?s moi, le deluge.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

You are correct and thanks.


36 posted on 05/16/2007 1:38:01 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: jude24

Sounds like something a college professor would come up with .


37 posted on 05/16/2007 1:38:38 PM PDT by sonic109
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To: dcwusmc

Yes, we DID contribute to the Islamists’ hatred for us. See, we aren’t Muslims, so they hate us for that.


38 posted on 05/16/2007 1:38:57 PM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Duncan Hunter wears Fred Thompson pajamas!)
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To: dcwusmc

bombs just looking for a reason to explode.


39 posted on 05/16/2007 1:39:25 PM PDT by showme_the_Glory (No more rhymes, and I mean it! ..Anybody want a peanut.....)
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To: dcwusmc

thanks for asking.

Yes, you are anti semitic.

No, we are not responsible for the vile act of hatred perpetrated on 9-11.

It really is astounding to me how many liberals and conservatives are willing to indulge the “maybe we should let Israel go.”

Huge swaths of the Middle East openly kill and require the mass exodus of all non muslim minorities and their is nary a blink of the political eye. Please see todays announcment that a small minority of Christians must convert or die within 10 days in Pakistan.

There is not one thing wrong with the state of Israel— save that Jews live there. That is absolutely the facts. If all the Jews converted to Islam tomorrow and then they chose to kill all of the Palestinians, nothing would be said in criticism.

this is the re-institutition of the Holocaust. Iran has explicitly spelled it out dozens of times but we just look away.

Dozens if not hundreds of ethnic minorities have land claims superior to those of the so called Palestinians but they are absolutely ignored.

The Islamic Fasicsts can change— and they can change right now. No one has any moral obligation to say, ‘well I guess I antagonized you because you define yourself in terms of my non-existence.” Islamic fascism is wrong. It has always been wrong. It will always be wrong. No electoral outcome will ever change this fact. At some point, humanity will band together to defeat this vile idea.

I hope this answers your question.


40 posted on 05/16/2007 1:39:48 PM PDT by lonestar67 (Its time to withdraw from the War on Bush-- your side is hopelessly lost in a quagmire.)
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To: dcwusmc

“COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11?”

Yes we could have converted to Islam, given up our freedom and installed a Sharia Law Government. They will attack no matter what until we convert.


41 posted on 05/16/2007 1:40:31 PM PDT by YOUGOTIT (The Greatest Threat to our Security is the US Senate)
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To: dcwusmc

We’re not a pure as the driven snow, not that I care - My Country, Right or Wrong!

But the nutballs are driven more by ambition, than by revenge. Remember some of their “grievances” date back to the loss of Spain... They would have attacked us sooner or later.


42 posted on 05/16/2007 1:40:38 PM PDT by Little Ray (Rudy Guiliani: if his wives can't trust him, why should we?)
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To: dcwusmc
The concept of historical appreciation has been documented by many of our Presidents going all the way back to the Founding Fathers.

The Caliphate and Jihadist Philospohy was founded approximately ONE THOUSAND YEARS!

before our founding. The strategies required to deal with this Historic Movement are NOT facile, (or easy)!

We brought down the Soviet Union by economic means which pointed to "The Shining City on a Hill", (So oft repeated by Reagan!). Modern Socialism had a 200 year history and while the Soviet Union succumbed their counterparts right here in the USofA still espouse this form of government, (Pelosi, Hillary et al!).

As for the Jihadists and present day Dictators in Venezuela and North Korea alittle force is required.

43 posted on 05/16/2007 1:40:38 PM PDT by Young Werther ( and Julius Ceasar said, "quae cum ita sunt." (or since these things are so!))
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To: Tokra

Me too///hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


44 posted on 05/16/2007 1:40:55 PM PDT by sonic109
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To: dcwusmc

Bin Laden stated that his angst toward us was over the break up of the Caliphate after WWI. Their goal is to restore the Caliphate and America is in their way.


45 posted on 05/16/2007 1:41:19 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: dcwusmc

If you are asking if our foreign policy decisions have been crafted based on short term goals without a fleeting thought as to: what the long term unintended consequences might be, what risks the policies pose to our future, what lessons we might learn from history, what the relative weight of reward/risk is in the long term, and what plans we might make to track and mitigate these risks, then the answer is YES YES YES YES YES!! Americans live for the five minute sound byte, thinking is not required.


46 posted on 05/16/2007 1:41:21 PM PDT by LambSlave (If you have to ask permission, it's not a right.)
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To: dcwusmc

What did India do to earn their islamderthal attacks? How about Bangladesh or Nepal. Did Indonesia or the Philippines occupy muslim lands? Several hundred years ago, did north Africa and southern Europe occupy muslim lands?

They’re bent on global domination and they constantly tell us that. Sure we can do the Ron Paul thing and curl up in a fetal ball hoping they don’t kick us too hard but we better be willing to die in mass numbers for the blinders we’re supposed to wear. After all, they won’t be kicking us with boots, they’ll be using nukes.


47 posted on 05/16/2007 1:41:51 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Greed is NOT a conservative ideal.)
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To: dcwusmc

Osama said the reason for the attacks were the proximity of our troops to Mecca.

It’s kinda like asking if you are to blame when someone rear-ends your car. If you had stayed home, the wreck could have been avoided. If you did not own a car, the wreck could have been avoided. Etc


48 posted on 05/16/2007 1:41:56 PM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: livius

“Islam has been that way for 1400 years”

Islam needs to advance at least to the 18th Century.


49 posted on 05/16/2007 1:41:57 PM PDT by hophead
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To: dcwusmc
I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk

Hey. I resemble that remark.

I think radical Islam has been trying to convert the whole world for some time and want run the place as one big Islamic State.

Radical and mainstream muslims hate Westerners, their culture and their Christian/Jewish religions.

50 posted on 05/16/2007 1:42:58 PM PDT by TexasCajun
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