Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Did the U.S. Contribute in ANY Possible Way to Islamists' Attitudes Prior to 9/11?
Self | 5/16/2007 | DC Wright

Posted on 05/16/2007 1:25:01 PM PDT by dcwusmc

This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection. I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk, but try. Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11? Were our policies in the mid-east in any possible way factors which allowed a nutjob like Osama Bin Awful to recruit moonbats who were and are willing to die to kill "infidels," whether in the U.S. or overseas? If you say "no,' I ask for clear evidence to back you up. If you say "yes," then to what DEGREE did our policies contribute to 9/11 and subsequent attacks and attempted attacks? Which policies and why?

This is in no way to excuse what happened, of course. But to many of you here, it seems we were pure as the driven snow and 9/11 happened out of thin air and is totally inexplicable in terms of our own government's past actions and policies. Since the roots of it go back to Clinton and beyond (I would say at least to Jimmy the Peanut, myself, perhaps sooner), this does NOT constitute Bush-bashing, as some others are wont to claim (again, a kneejerk reaction).

It is my considered opinion that MANY of our presidents have thought so highly of themselves that they could consider that THEY, alone, held all the answers to all the factionalism and all the troubles in the Middle East. That they could, by virtue of their own personalities and whatever, overcome CENTURIES of fighting, infighting, atrocities and counter-atrocities by all these Arabs and Persians and even the Jews. (It seems that throughout history, MOST societies have scapegoated the Jews for all their ills.) Add the witches' brew of Mohammedanism to an already-backwards culture and we have semi-literate people with hair-triggers who WANT to believe the worst about outsiders, Jew OR Gentile. Then give them even the least bit of fact to bite on and a nutcase like Osama can wind up with scores of thousands of wanna-bee martyrs. And WE fell into that trap. When we took sides in their fratricidal civil wars. Even when we abandoned an "ally" and then allowed him into our country for medical treatment... one group took things one way, another took things THEIR way and now it seems we have the three main sects of that false religion after us.

Let me clarify now that I am a fervent supporter of Israel and the Jewish People, God's Chosen. However, I am NOT a supporter of GOVERNMENT AID to Israel. Besides the very questionable constitutionality of it, the aid comes with, in my opinion, way too many strings which inhibit Israel from mounting a proper defense of herself when needed. Also it gives American presidents, who are already too full of themselves, an arrogance that THEY ALONE can surmount the hatreds and ill wills that drive the Muslim countries to want to see Israel eradicated and all the Jews of the world exterminated.

The main problem as I see it is that if we refuse to look beyond our own prejudices and biases to the FACTS, we will LOSE our country and our culture. If we choose to blindly follow dangerous or misguided or even evil policies and policy makers, we will wind up with NOTHING of the once-free nation handed off to us by the Founders. I even sometimes do it, then I have to actually THINK for myself. Mostly I come down on the side that says that the people who attacked us and who continue to act like a plague upon the land should be wiped slick from the earth. However, I often strongly question the MEANS for doing that... and I question the WILL of the Bushites to WIN the war on terrorists and their sponsoring countries. I also have trouble with the name of this: The Global War on Terror. Terrorism is a TACTIC used by those who are too cowardly to come up against an opposing force on an even footing. It is also SPONSORED by certain nations who would see us done ill, but who want to keep their own hands "clean." Thus, there can be NO "war on terror," and it is the semantics which get in the way of WINNING, because there is no way to determine when or if you HAVE won. This is why I, along with others (including a presidential candidate who shall remain nameless), am convinced that we should have had a declaration by the Congress that specifically stated that a state of war exists between the United States and al-Qaeda, the Taliban and any nation which supports or harbors them. That way we would have mobilized our national resources, went on an actual WAR-footing and committed our country and our people and our resources to WINNING this thing instead of having it now to be used as a political football by the Left and the chickenhawks on the right.

So, in hindsight, COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11? Or are we as pure as the driven snow and those nutballs just up and decided to attack us because they could get away with it?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; War on Terror; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-176 next last
To: dcwusmc
“Were our policies in the mid-east in any possible way factors which allowed a nutjob like Osama Bin Awful to recruit moonbats who were and are willing to die to kill “infidels,” whether in the U.S. or overseas?”

US gov’t policies were used as excuses. The real reason behind terrorist activity is western culture. Freedom represents a threat to traditional Islamic values. As such, Islamic leaders must promote a jihad against the west in order to convince young Muslims that western culture and freedom is evil. Otherwise the younger generation growing up now will absorb western culture through the Internet and satalite TV’s and western fashions and music.

Western culture is global thanks to new technologies and teenagers can grow up with many of the same likes and dislikes in all corners of the world. Islamic terrorism is a last ditch effort to fight off modernism and the 21st century.

US gov’t policies in the middle east are brain dead stupid, but they aren’t the real reason for 9-11. Western culture and it’s influence over young Muslims is the real reason for 9-11 and all Islamic terrorism.

101 posted on 05/16/2007 2:28:11 PM PDT by monday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: colorado tanker
...pray that they will be the first new power in history to be content with their initial gains

Wouldn't the first new power in history satisfied with it's gains be the USA? However, given that an Islamic empire would rise out of a philosophy which is completely opposite to that of the founding philosophy of the USA, I understand your point, and would not bet on OBL's minions ever being satisfied.
102 posted on 05/16/2007 2:29:16 PM PDT by lump in the melting pot ("Wonderful theory. Wrong species." - Edward O. Wilson, an expert on ants, describing Marxism)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
So, in hindsight, COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11?

In hindsight...we could have developed the modern western culture without including the acceptance of abortions, drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, excellence, material wealth, and diverse religions.

However, after modifying our culture to meet their demands what other demands would we be obliged to grant or modify to ensure our safety? Better to nip it now before the terrorist tactics prove successful.

Terrorist attacks are not caused by the use of strength but rather by the perception of weakness.

103 posted on 05/16/2007 2:35:29 PM PDT by MosesKnows
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2banana

Excellent summation, thank you.


104 posted on 05/16/2007 2:35:59 PM PDT by the anti-mahdi
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

> This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection. I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk, but try.

This is not a good way of encouraging people to read your words. For a start, please read Bernard Lewis’s brilliant op ed in today’s WSJ.


105 posted on 05/16/2007 2:38:30 PM PDT by cloud8
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Image hosted by Photobucket.com the Blame America FIRST crowd says "And the Mail was LATE TOO!!!"
106 posted on 05/16/2007 2:58:31 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
The terrorists war on America began almost 50 years ago with the formation of Israel. IMO it has nothing to do with freedom or and all that. The simple fact is that we are not Muslims and they have stated they will conquer the world. We should have went after the bastards back in the 60s when they committed terrorists acts against American. Hunt them down and kill them. But no we just blew off the terrorists attacks that killed our military and civilians in out embassies and other places like Lebanon and Saudi Arabs. They had no respect for us and knew they would get away with it. Only W has had the balls to go get them.
107 posted on 05/16/2007 2:59:46 PM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

Well, I have to say....
I dont think that I’m knee jerk but I do resent too much soul searching asking if we deserved to be attacked.
But really I’m writing to tell you that I have thoroughly enjoyed this post and the responses.


108 posted on 05/16/2007 3:03:52 PM PDT by mpackard (Proud mama of a Sailor.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

The terrorists war on America began almost 50 years ago with the formation of Isreal. IMO it has nothing to do with freedom or and all that. The simple fact is that we are not Muslims and they have stated they will conquer the world. We should have went after the bastards back in the 60s when they committed terroists acts agains American. Hunt them down and kill them. But no we just blew off the terrorists attacks that killed our military and civilians in out embassies and other places like lebonon and Saudi Arabis. They had no respect for us and knew they would get away with it. Only W has had the balls to go get them.


109 posted on 05/16/2007 3:03:59 PM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

Other than refusing to being as anti Semitic as all the sh$# holes out there in the rest of the world, and other than doing the right thing by supporting Israel against anti Western thugs, when the rest of the world has been too cowardly to do so, no.


110 posted on 05/16/2007 3:14:50 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: monday
US gov’t policies in the middle east are brain dead stupid, but they aren’t the real reason for 9-11. Western culture and it’s influence over young Muslims is the real reason for 9-11 and all Islamic terrorism.

Sort of. So many keep posting that they attack us becuase they want to expand, and that is not wholly right. Listen to what the Islamists talk about, and you will hear that they are MUCH more angered by the fact that Muslim countries are not under Islamic law than the fact that the United States is not under Islamic law. What's the biggest crime in Islam? Apostasy - leaving the Muslim faith.

You're right that it is Western culture that is destroying Islamic rule. But attacking Western culture doesn't get any traction in the Middle East, because it's acceptance is a voluntary act of the people. Our military presence, however, is not a voluntary act of their people, and gets a lot of traction on the Arab street, which allows bin Laden to recruit terrorists, raise funds, etc.

That's not to say that our military doesn't have a role. We need to protect secular governments in Muslim countries from Islamist coups. We need to support secular overthrow of Islamist governments. But that should be the extent of our military involvement.

We have a lot of advantages to win with - our culture is eating away at Islam, the Muzzies have the great tendency to slaughter each other as much as us, and they are complete idiots when it comes to traditional military strategy.

As far as Iraq goes, it is time for the Iraqis to fight their own war against the Islamists, both the Al Qaeda Sunnis and The Iran-backed Shia. We can offer support, but our men need to be off of the front lines.

111 posted on 05/16/2007 3:27:39 PM PDT by Toskrin (It's not what you do at your best, but what you do at your worst)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

“This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection.”

Well, no, it doesn’t. The use in your title of ‘any possible way’ means even the most unlikely things count. Given the war against Iraq under GHWB, a major cause of Islamic nettlement pops up. Didn’t take much thought and very little introspection.


112 posted on 05/16/2007 3:27:44 PM PDT by gcruse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

We did in the same way those students caused Cho to kill them. ie, we exist.


113 posted on 05/16/2007 3:31:44 PM PDT by Tolsti
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Only if you consider going our own way "contributing".

You are talking about people who thought that a 1930s small town Colorado church social was decadent.

President Bush had it right. They hate our freedoms.

Today I held the hand of and kissed a man I was not related to, drove myself to the store, did not cover my hair and actually told men what to do at work.

These are all things that drive these terrorists nuts.

That I have the gall to do all those things and I am not hauled out and stoned to death just makes them quiver with rage. How dare I not conform to what they think is proper?

114 posted on 05/16/2007 3:39:42 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Mobile phones kill more people than exploding cupboards, ironing boards and Godzilla)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

The terrorist were encouraged by the spineless and weak actions of our government in the years before 9/11. They were licking their chops while looking at an America they thought was afraid to fight.


115 posted on 05/16/2007 3:49:08 PM PDT by peeps36 (OUTLAWED WORDS--INSURGENT,GLOBAL WARMING,UNDOCUMENTED WORKER,PALESTINIAN,TERMINATED PREGNANCY)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: hophead
“I understand your answer, but they ARE blowing up thousands of their own ALL AROUND THE WORLD aren’t they? Somalia, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Thialand,........”

They are at war. Civilians are killed in war! Last big war WW II some 30 to 50 million civilians were killed. As long as they feel that they can influence the way the American People think they will continue to kill so the headlines in the US will read 40 more killed today. The press does not report that today an average of 117 Americans died today in traffic accidents (or close to that number) and that 45 Americans were murdered today (on average). Their position as I see it is that they will kill anyone to meet their goal of world domination. Their desire is for the world to be under the yoke of Islam and they will keep killing until either they reach their goal or they are destroyed as happened when they invaded Europe and were repulsed and pushed back to North Africa and Turkey. The left in the United States and in Europe supports Islam because they do not know what lies in bed for them when they lay down with the terrorist. It is called being without ones head.

116 posted on 05/16/2007 3:55:02 PM PDT by YOUGOTIT (The Greatest Threat to our Security is the US Senate)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

The big answer is Freedom and we don’t stone our women to death after they are raped


117 posted on 05/16/2007 4:17:52 PM PDT by grb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Were our policies in the mid-east in any possible way factors which allowed a nutjob like Osama Bin Awful to recruit moonbats who were and are willing to die to kill "infidels," whether in the U.S. or overseas?

The recruitment is based on jealousy, envy, and a serious inferiority complex among much of the Muslim world. This is ultimately what leads them to "hate us" (tm/2001). I understand that you are saying we could have not done XYZ and XYZ was used to recruit, therefore, by doing XYZ we contributed to their attitudes.

This is wrong.

If we hadn't done XYZ, we would have done ABC. If we hadn't done ABC, it would have been DEF. We do these things because we are free, prosperous, and powerful. The only way to "not do" ANYTHING which "contributes" to their attitudes towards us would be to drastically, radically reduce our power, prosperity, and (therefore) freedom.

That's why I don't think "they hate us because we are free" to be such an inaccurate sentiment. Granted, when a guy like Giuliani says it, he probably is just reciting a nice sound-bite. However, I think that it's ultimately more accurate, and gets more to the heart of the matter, than to say "they hate us because we bombed Iraq in Operation Desert Fox in 1998" or whatever.

So that's my answer to your question: no.

If you say "no,' I ask for clear evidence to back you up.

You're asking for "clear evidence" to prove a negative answer to a question that is, by nature, philosophical and subjective ("did the U.S. contribute to Islamists' attitudes")? Ohhh-kay. Sorry no can do.

But to many of you here, it seems we were pure as the driven snow and 9/11 happened out of thin air and is totally inexplicable in terms of our own government's past actions and policies.

-we weren't "pure as the drive snow" (no nation, nor group of people, is, nor ever has been, so this is a silly standard)

-9/11 didn't happen out of thin air. it was planned and plotted for years, and yes, the psychos who did it did give us warning.

-9/11 is not "explicable" in terms of our government's past actions because that implies that by solely analyzing our government's past actions, you can make a good explanation (the root word of "explicable") as to why 9/11 occurred. But that is not correct! No true explanation of why 9/11 occurred would be a good explanation if it did not focus on the attackers themselves, in particular their psychologies and cultures.

So yes, 9/11 may be "explicable" in terms of our government's actions, but it would be a bad explanation. My beef with sentiments like that expressed by e.g. Ron Paul is not so much that Paul is "wrong" as that he is peddling a lousy explanation.

Add the witches' brew of Mohammedanism to an already-backwards culture and we have semi-literate people with hair-triggers who WANT to believe the worst about outsiders, Jew OR Gentile.

There, that wasn't so hard, was it? You see what the broad outlines of a good explanation look like?

Then give them even the least bit of fact to bite on and a nutcase like Osama can wind up with scores of thousands of wanna-bee martyrs. And WE fell into that trap.

I say it was not humanly possible for the U.S., at this point in time, given its position in the world, "not to fall into that trap". Because any sort of foreign policy we could have engaged in would contain grievance-fodder for people who are xenophobic and resentful enough. How the hell do you calibrate a foreign policy which pisses off ZERO crazy people?

If you disagree, please show me your "clear evidence" to the contrary! ;-)

When we took sides in their fratricidal civil wars.

Example..?

Even when we abandoned an "ally" and then allowed him into our country for medical treatment... one group took things one way, another took things THEIR way and now it seems we have the three main sects of that false religion after us.

Your point being... what? We shouldn't have "allowed" someone to come here to obtain medical treatment?

However, I am NOT a supporter of GOVERNMENT AID to Israel. Besides the very questionable constitutionality of it, the aid comes with, in my opinion, way too many strings which inhibit Israel from mounting a proper defense of herself when needed.

Why single out Israel? What about our GOVERNMENT AID to Egypt, which gets roughly the same amount? Is that ok?

If we choose to blindly follow dangerous or misguided or even evil policies and policy makers, we will wind up with NOTHING of the once-free nation handed off to us by the Founders.

Wow. I like how you started out this vanity trying to seem all even-handed and genuinely inquisitive, and I'm 3/4 through it and all of a sudden we're engaging in "evil policies".

Which policies might those be, may I ask? Lay your cards on the table.

I also have trouble with the name of this: The Global War on Terror. [terror being a tactic, blah blah blah]

Sigh. I'm so sick of this boring complaint. Call it whatever the hell you want for pete's sake. Can't you just do a mental find/replace whenever you hear/read "war on terror" and replace it by a terminology you like better? Wars don't really have "names", you know. There's no Official U.S. Commission On How To Name Wars. And it doesn't matter anyway what the "name" is. You're talking about semantics. It is what it is.

the semantics which get in the way of WINNING

No it doesn't. Semantics cannot do that. People who needlessly obsess on semantics might, however.

This is why I, along with others (including a presidential candidate who shall remain nameless), am convinced that we should have had a declaration by the Congress that specifically stated that a state of war exists between the United States and al-Qaeda, the Taliban and any nation which supports or harbors them.

We did, it was the War Powers Resolution which preceded the invasion of Afghanistan.

That way we would have mobilized our national resources, went on an actual WAR-footing and committed our country and our people and our resources to WINNING this thing

First of all it doesn't follow that, had war been declared in the semantical manner you wish, we would have "gone on WAR-footing" whatever that means exactly.

Second of all, it's not obvious why that would be necessary. We already invaded Afghanistan and displaced the Taliban. We didn't need to ration our nylon stockings (or whatever) to do it. So why would you want us to?

instead of having it now to be used as a political football by the Left and the chickenhawks on the right.

Wow! All the way from "thought and introspection" to "you're chickenhawks if you disagree with me"! Bravo, sir! well played!

So, in hindsight, COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11?

We can always take different paths in our foreign policy. And no such path "necessarily" leads to 9/11 or anything else.

However, I claim that, no matter what "path" we had taken, there would be jihadis out there now jealous of our prosperity and eager to murder Americans for honor and glory, and they would have perpetrated 9/11 or something like it sooner or later. If you disagree, please give your clear evidence to the contrary!!

Or are we as pure as the driven snow

Nice roomy, spacious excluded middle there. We are not "pure as the driven snow" (and it is a straw-man) but that does not prove your silly post to be correct.

118 posted on 05/16/2007 4:24:46 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Toskrin
We didn’t “ask for it”, but I also don’t think that they attack us just because we are for freedom.

No, they attack us because they are jealous, impotent, and xenophobic, and we are big, powerful, and prosperous. That prosperity has a lot to do with our freedoms. In addition, those same freedoms are portrayed via mass-market entertainment which they see - rubbing their faces in our "big"ness, so to speak.

So, while I agree they do not attack us "just because" we are free, I would say they attack us for reasons that are intimately connected with and inseparable from how free we are.

119 posted on 05/16/2007 4:33:16 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: hinckley buzzard
#96 - excellent response

Backward-looking in this way is highly overrated as a guide to future actions.

120 posted on 05/16/2007 4:38:10 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: Toskrin
Listen to what the Islamists talk about, and you will hear that they are MUCH more angered by the fact that Muslim countries are not under Islamic law than the fact that the United States is not under Islamic law.

Well, of course. One thing at a time. This is not a disproof of their expansionist tendencies, just evidence that they have a simple and obvious "from the center -> outward" strategy in mind.

121 posted on 05/16/2007 4:41:39 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: lonestar67

You’ve got several pieces of an answer, for which I thank you. However, you’ve gotta back up your claim that I’m an anti-semite. If you base that on my lack of desire for GOVERNMENTAL aid to Israel versus PRIVATE aid which has no strings attached, I suppose I could plead guilty. However, if you are asserting that I would oppose the existence of the State of Israe, then I would tell you to go pound sand. I rightly resent government, especially fedgov, making decisions for me as to where my “charitable” contributions should go. So should you. I do NOT think that this means I oppose the existence of the Jewish state, as they are God’s Chosen people and it is NOT for me to make His choices for Him.


122 posted on 05/16/2007 4:51:10 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: holfen123

I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. /s


123 posted on 05/16/2007 4:53:32 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: ExTexasRedhead

Most people, I among them, have a rather lengthy “better dead” list. However, there are several reasons why those on MY list still breathe my air... I am civilized; I have a clear recognition of right and wrong; and I could never be sure ahead of time that the target did not have armed bodyguards that might be able to defeat my purpose. Except for the last consideration, the muzzies do not share these characteristics. When they perceive weakness, they will attack. So what weakness in US did they perceive that made this the time to attack us? No, this is a legitimate thread with a proper question, but thanks for participating.


124 posted on 05/16/2007 5:04:06 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: massgopguy
They’re still pissed over the USS Constitution beating the Barbary Pirates.

I knew I shouldn't have napped. That was my first answer.

125 posted on 05/16/2007 5:07:10 PM PDT by HungarianGypsy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Non-Sequitur

Nothing that I can point to, sadly!


126 posted on 05/16/2007 5:07:15 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

American Liberals are our weakness.


127 posted on 05/16/2007 5:07:23 PM PDT by ExTexasRedhead
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

Did the U.S. Contribute in ANY Possible Way to Islamists’ Attitudes Prior to 9/11?


Mr Jimmuh Cahter sure did!


128 posted on 05/16/2007 5:08:49 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

High Volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel. or WOT [War on Terror]

----------------------------

This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection. I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk, but try. Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11?

As a knee-jerk freeper I'm disqualified, but someone may wish to weigh in on our culpability.

129 posted on 05/16/2007 5:21:03 PM PDT by SJackson (Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die, R. Garroway, UNWRA director, 8/58)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mpackard

Well, thanks. Actually, to this point a few have come close to my answer... that is, the perception of weakness on our part, which may well have been a major factor in them thinking they could get away with it. Sadly, they may not have been that far off the mark, considering all that’s going on right now... and I have no idea how to change that. But maybe I’ll come up with something... :^)


130 posted on 05/16/2007 5:23:38 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: mpackard

Well, thanks. Actually, to this point a few have come close to my answer... that is, the perception of weakness on our part, which may well have been a major factor in them thinking they could get away with it. Sadly, they may not have been that far off the mark, considering all that’s going on right now... and I have no idea how to change that. But maybe I’ll come up with something... :^)


131 posted on 05/16/2007 5:23:48 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: SJackson
"This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection. I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk, but try. Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11?"

Yes--by appeasing and/or taking the side of Islamo-fascists so many times before then, with Pakistan, Lebanon, Iran and all of them in the case of the so-called "Palestinians" (generic Arabs rejected and sent from various other Islamo-fascist countries to fight against Israel). We've bent over to many times to the demands of western Europeans who are too emotionally oriented to Lawrence of Arabia and other fairy tales.

If we'd have been tougher with Islamo-fascists before then and refused to take the terrorist attacks from them, they would not have been so bold as to attack our World Trade Center. If we were not so determined to be dependent on them for oil now, we would be taking care of current business (Iran, its nuke program and its coalition-building with the Saudis and others).


132 posted on 05/16/2007 5:33:24 PM PDT by familyop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 129 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

If your point is that no foreign government should receive aid, then fair enough. That point alone is not anti semitic.

The effort to construe US Israeli relations in a unique way which does not apply equally to other nations is in my view anti semitic. Your post is oriented against Israel in an effort to understand how the US provokes the Islamic fascists.

The Islamic fascists hold an anti semitic view of Israel. It is a matter of utmost rhetorical urgency that this view be confronted and denied. Obviously as they chant death to Israel and death to America— they believe that the Jews of Israel shall be the first victim. We will certainly be the next according ot their design.

Anyone who wants to engage the question of Israel ought to be more careful in my view. The blatant, shrill, and obvious anti semitic hatred radiating out of the middle east should not be casually re figured as some bland political tension. It is a carefully cultivated and propagandized hate instituted by Mickey Mouse and every rhetorical tool of deception that can be had.

I obviously lack patience for a world that indicates confusion about the complaints of Bin Laden.

5 minutes on MEMRI.ORG ought to clarify matters for anyone who is confused about what is going on.


133 posted on 05/16/2007 5:41:30 PM PDT by lonestar67 (Its time to withdraw from the War on Bush-- your side is hopelessly lost in a quagmire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Oh please.

What do:

Somalia
The former Yugoslavia
Darfur
Kashmir
Ethiopia
Chechnya
Sudan
Indonesia

have in common?
Muslims with a gripe. Does the whole world need to look inward or should we just look to the Muslim world to see where the problem originates

And don’t forget their own infighting.

134 posted on 05/16/2007 5:47:22 PM PDT by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Frank fan

I like your (mostly) thoughtful reply. And, as far as I am concerned ANY foreign aid is wrong. Period. But my particular problem with governmental aid to Israel is that the strings attached to it HURT Israel’s ability to protect herself when needed. PRIVATE aid would not be given with those strings.

WRT the Shah and his downfall, I am saying that Jimmy the Peanut either created or contributed in a MAJOR way to the perception of our indecisiveness, and thus our weakness. You do recall, perhaps, that our embassy people were released on inauguration day, 1981, right?

As far as the “evil and misguided” policies, I am not trying to lay all or even most of that at Bush’s feet. It goes back a ways. Again, to Jimmy C. and prior.

But putting the country on a “war-footing,” similar to that during WWII, but with less rationing, would have been the simplest and quickest way I can think of to do several things, including getting the whole country involved in the situation, where EVERYBODY knows what is happening and is convinced that he or she is part of the solution; taking away the DemoRat ability to undermine the effort because the sedition and treason statutes could be invoked; commit the nation, in so many words, to WIN the war instead of just slapping our enemy in the face a bit and pissing him off.Over the years I have learned a lot of Marine Corps history after WWI. Throughout the “Banana Wars” in Central America and then the Pacific in WWII, Korea and Vietnam, a few things stand out. Namely, if you want to WIN against barbarians, you have to get down in the gutter with them, stomp them until they CAN’T get up any more, then keep stomping them until they lose the will to TRY to get up. Only after that can you treat with them. The Islamists are barbarians. Any treatment short of what I described will only be perceived by them as weakness. And weakness begets more war, sure as the sun rises in the east. NOW am I clear enough?

As far as the “pure as the driven snow,” there are way too many who seem to think (if they think at all) or “feel” that there needs to be NO discussion of how we might have done things differently in order to achieve a different outcome. When this is all over (maybe in my great-grandkids’ time), I want to see this country restored to its original state vis-a-vis the Constitutional limits on FedGov and I want to be sure that we do nothing to create conditions which cause this cancer on mankind to recur. Sort of like, my smoking helped cause my lung cancer. Now that it’s gone, should I continue to smoke?


135 posted on 05/16/2007 5:54:34 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]

To: CaptainK

A LOT of the problem lies with the muzzies, there’s no getting around it. But not the whole of it. IMHO, part of it lies with the arrogance of our “leadership” back numerous years that said that they were somehow qualified to do what no one else could do before them: Impose a “peace” in the area which ignored the thousand plus years of hatreds. So my question is more akin to this: You smoked. You got lung cancer. Now the cancer is cured. Should you take up smoking again? Or should you look into the possibilities and maybe do something different from now on and eliminate that threat to your health? That “self-created” threat. The muzzies are a cancer on mankind. Which perception of US did they have which led them to believe that 9/11 was a good time to attack us? How do we clear up that misperception so that they never want to try it again? Or do we just continue smoking?


136 posted on 05/16/2007 6:07:15 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Trying to rationalize with the irrational is a fruitless pursuit.
137 posted on 05/16/2007 6:11:02 PM PDT by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies]

To: lonestar67

If I didn’t make it clear enough, I am opposed to ALL foreign aid.

My post is not intended at all to oppose Israel. If you got that impression then I wasn’t clear enough. And I am not at all opposed to PRIVATE aid to Israel; the contrary is true. Would that ALL the aid to Israel were private, that there could be no strings to it and that it would show the true spirit of kinship we REALLY feel toward Israel. Government to government is what I do now and will always oppose. It does NOT show the genuine feelings of Americans to our brothers and sisters in Israel. Whether we be Jew or Gentile, they are kin, in a manner of speaking, and well need and deserve our voluntary, PRIVATE, individual support.


138 posted on 05/16/2007 6:16:07 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
And, as far as I am concerned ANY foreign aid is wrong. Period.

Ok, fair enough. But surely you realize that getting from the current state A=we engage in tons of "foreign aid" to Z=no foreign aid whatsoever would represent such a quantum leap that it is not realistic to suggest as a feasible alternative path we "could have" taken.

But my particular problem with governmental aid to Israel is that the strings attached to it HURT Israel’s ability to protect herself when needed.

This is a fair point and I actually agree with it as stated. (Doesn't mean I seek to discontinue our aid to Israel, but I do understand the point)

Let me ask you this however. In your ideal world, would we allow Israel to purchase arms and/or materiel from us (i.e. U.S.-based suppliers)? If so, we'd still get basically all the blame we currently get for "helping Israel". If not, on what grounds?

WRT the Shah and his downfall, I am saying that Jimmy the Peanut either created or contributed in a MAJOR way to the perception of our indecisiveness, and thus our weakness.

Clearly. My point is, however, if it hadn't been that, it'd have been something else. Whether we supported the Shah, didn't support the Shah, too weak & allowed the revolution, or had actually stood up & intervened to suppress the revolution, the Muslim-imperialists would have found some grievance to put in their crazy writings.

That is why it's not worth wringing our hands over.

But putting the country on a “war-footing,” similar to that during WWII, but with less rationing, would have been the simplest and quickest way I can think of to do several things, including getting the whole country involved in the situation, where EVERYBODY knows what is happening and is convinced that he or she is part of the solution;

I confess to being puzzled by people who suggest that "getting the whole country involved in the situation" (with some rationing, I gather?) would have somehow led to a better situation than the one we have at present, where 99% of the country is NOT AFFECTED IN THE SLIGHTEST by our current military operations and yet half of whom have spent the past four years doing practically nothing but shrieking nonstop about how horrible and terrible it has been that we invaded Iraq and how immediate the need is for the occupation to cease.

I just can't help wondering how shrill that whining would become if all those people were actually "involved in the situation". I admit, I am loathe to find out, and so I just do not consider it a state of affairs to be sought after. Usually this is the stage in the argument where the person putting forth your view says something like, "but if everyone was involved, then um we'd all see the importance of the struggle and uh we'd all be united and, like, it would be better".

I don't buy it for one single second.

The Islamists are barbarians. Any treatment short of what I described will only be perceived by them as weakness. And weakness begets more war, sure as the sun rises in the east. NOW am I clear enough?

Fair enough but this seems part of a different argument; what does it have to do with the supposed need to examine our nation's past foreign policy behavior for "contributions" we've made to Islamists' attitudes?

As far as the “pure as the driven snow,” there are way too many who seem to think (if they think at all) or “feel” that there needs to be NO discussion of how we might have done things differently in order to achieve a different outcome.

Saying there need be no such discussion (for example, because it's unhelpful, a point others in this thread made before I) is not the same thing as asserting that our nation is "pure as the driven snow". Again: it's a straw man.

and I want to be sure that we do nothing to create conditions which cause this cancer on mankind to recur. Sort of like, my smoking helped cause my lung cancer. Now that it’s gone, should I continue to smoke?

No, but even granting that smoking caused your lung cancer - something we can infer with FAR MORE certainty than we could ever infer a construction like "9/11 happened because Jimmy was weak on Iran" - examining that behavior and thereby "abstaining from smoking in the future" is NOT the best way forward for you. One needs to go in for (depending on type..) surgery/ chemo/ radiation, and then continue with all the followup appointments, etc. As I'm sure you realize, "let's figure out what I did to make this happen" is NOT a good way to cure/treat/manage lung cancer! :-)

Anyway, at some point I do have to point out the analogy breaks down. Cancer is a battle with an adversary that is not conscious, does not have motives, does not have thoughts, feelings, a culture or a psychology. That is why one can at least hope to make good explanations for the onset of cancers that involve only the cancer patient - namely his behavior, environment, and/or genes.

But when discussing a struggle against human adversaries, fascist Muslim imperialists in this case, any attempt to seek "explanations" that refer only to us and our behavior is bound to lead to a lousy and unhelpful explanation. These are people, and cannot be treated as some passively-responding chemical or virus or bacteria or electric field, about whom we can somehow calculate, as if according to some physical law, that we "contributed" to their behavior by doing X and thus whose behavior we can "alter" simply by not doing X. I would say at best this line of thinking appeals because it is emotionally satisfying: after all, offers the promise that we can have some control over a situation that so many of us feel so helpless over.

I don't think the possibility of such control exists however. Emotionally satisfying or not, the explanation is still wrong. This is a struggle against other humans - in most cases crazy, pathetic humans, yes, but humans. They have their own motives and feelings and responses, and chances are, if we hadn't done X to piss them off, we'd have done Y. Trying to track down all the "X"'s we did is a fool's errand because you'll never in a million years predict, and prevent us from doing, all possible Y's. Unless of course you radically alter the fabric of our country. By - among other things - making it less free.

p.s. Best of luck w/the cancer.

139 posted on 05/16/2007 7:27:55 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 135 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Frank fan

I know analogies are of only limited usefulness, but that was the best I could think of... Indeed, one would have to go through the whole treatment regime, but I HAVE known those who would continue smoking afterwards...

And, no, thankfully I don’t have such a cancer; though a smoker for many years, my wife motivated me to finally have my last one over four years ago... after a relapse just after the start of this Iraq fracas, which brought back some unpleasant memories from the sixties (RVN related). I had promised her I’d quit in 2000, just before we got married. She was actually OK with me smoking, even though she didn’t like it much at all. But when she confronted me in ‘03, she told me that it had been MY choice to quit, so now if I didn’t quit she was gonna kill me. So I’m four years and counting.


140 posted on 05/16/2007 7:39:13 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Now let's hear your comment on the billions the US gives Egypt every year.

Not a peep out of you about that, huh?

141 posted on 05/16/2007 8:43:27 PM PDT by holfen123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: holfen123

Already commented, there, studly. I think ANY foreign aid is unconstitutional and wrong. Read the whole thread and you’ll find it numerous times.


142 posted on 05/16/2007 8:59:42 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

You NEVER mentioned Egypt until you were called on that, studly.


143 posted on 05/16/2007 9:10:24 PM PDT by holfen123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: holfen123

Maybe not at first on THIS thread, but time after time I have stated that I do not believe that ANY foreign aid is Constitutional. And I also stated, in THIS thread, why I specifically disapprove of governmental foreign aid to Israel. Did you read that part? If not, get back to me when you have.


144 posted on 05/16/2007 9:18:23 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: gcruse

I was actually trying to limit it to REASONABLE ways, not anything conceivable...


145 posted on 05/16/2007 9:21:28 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
No...

1) We defended the old Iran by not acknowledging the radical take over in 1979.
2) We defended Afghanistan by supporting the resistance
3) We defended Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (two Islamic States) from Iraq
4) We defended Kosovo and Croatia (two Islamic states) from Serbia. (Granted I never liked this one)

Here are a few examples of the United States protecting Islamic States. The argument is completely bogus.

146 posted on 05/16/2007 9:25:26 PM PDT by Sprite518
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: holfen123

That’s what I thought. You’re the goron with the Ward Churchill fixation.


147 posted on 05/16/2007 9:25:47 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Sprite518

Wasn’t arguing. Was asking... My answer was that we allowed ourselves to appear weak... which is VERY true.


148 posted on 05/16/2007 9:28:12 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc

IMHO there are a myriad of reasons why these Islamo-facists hate our country. Our decedent secular society is one reason. Our lack of moral control (as a nation - not as individuals), are obsession with everything “sex”, Hollywierd and the trash they spew forth, and many other examples all serve to threaten their very controlled distilled way of life and ideology. These “men” fear that our way of life will infect their culture and destroy their religious beliefs. That, IMHO, is a large part of why they hate Americans. There are other reasons, of course (Israel for one). But to me, this is a biggie. We do not practice what we constantly preach.


149 posted on 05/16/2007 9:31:53 PM PDT by SoldierDad (Proud Father of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Soldier fighting the terrorists in the Triangle of Death)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Did the U.S. Contribute in ANY Possible Way to Islamists' Attitudes Prior to 9/11?

Of course not, our actions don't have consequences. /rudy

150 posted on 05/16/2007 9:36:54 PM PDT by niki
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-176 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson