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Penalty Mitigation in the Immigration Reform Bill [White House Spokesman Responds: Post #53]
Free Republic ^ | 6-13-2007 | philman_36

Posted on 06/13/2007 6:57:12 AM PDT by philman_36

This morning on Fox and Friends there was made mention that much stricter fines are in the immigration reform bill. While this is true many folks may not know about a few words that follow the language about the tougher fines. Those words make a travesty of any "fines" as they can be waved and the employer could walk away owing nothing in penalties.

Here are the words I've got a problem with...

(D) The Secretary is authorized to reduce or mitigate penalties imposed upon employers, based upon factors including, but not limited to, the employer's hiring volume, compliance history, good-faith implementation of a compliance program, participation in temporary worker program, and voluntary disclosure of violations of this subsection to the Secretary.

So while we're being told that "the penalties are tougher" we aren't being told that under some circumstances employers can face reduced or even no fine whatsoever.
At this point of time in our history America can't afford our officials not being completely truthful to us and not stating that the possibility exists for employers to potentially be let off the hook completely is simply unacceptable.


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; amnestytroll; beggingforamnesty; blowbackfordubya; deafrino; duncanhunter; illegalimmigration; immigrantlist; immigration; judicialbypass; nicholasthompson; noamnestyforillegals; nthompsonwhitehouse; sellouts; vampirebill; wontgetfooledagain
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

“Amnesty Will Cost U.S. Taxpayers at Least $2.6 Trillion”

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1490.cfm


101 posted on 06/14/2007 11:54:49 AM PDT by ScottfromNJ
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Sir:
With all the respect due his office and accomplishments, President Bush is wrong on this issue. Enforce ALL the current immigration laws and build a viable border fence, and then we’ll see about “immigration reform” and all of that. The individuals who post here and millions like them are the GOP base (not Senator Edward Kennedy), and should not be accused of xenophobia or racism. We merely want everyone to play by the same rules and have our nations laws enforced equally for everybody. Thank you for being a stand-up guy and posting here at the #1 conservative site.

Fred

102 posted on 06/14/2007 11:56:35 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Fred Thompson/John Bolton 2008)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Mr. Thompson,

I'm not buying what the president is selling. I was a "bush-bot" for years! But no more! I was part of his core supporters but you lost me some time ago on this illegals issue.

As a native Texan I've seen up close and personal what the illegals have done to this state. Our schools are being dumbed down, our prisons and jails are full of illegals, emergency rooms are being taxed, etc.

I'll agree that many illegals are not bad folks. Many are hard working people. But many are not and are the unproductive dregs and cast-offs of Mexico and South America. How many? I don't know and neither do you. You don't have a clue if it's 12 or 30 million people. Our government can't even count! Nor has it been able to enforce existing laws. So to me your entire post here has no value because you have already proved you can't perform. I have no confidence you can or will do anything you descibe in your post. Frankly, I don't believe you intend to anyway.

The general public is way ahead of you on this issue. All you have done with the post is insulted many of us that know that the administration is not serious about border security. Which makes me wonder about other things like the WOT. How can there be a war on terror is anyone can cross our borders?

I'm ashamed to say I supported George W. Bush.

103 posted on 06/14/2007 11:58:47 AM PDT by isthisnickcool (I believe that's my stapler....)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
In case you missed it, I'll repeat one of my important questions:

Since your bill makes it easy for people to sneak into the country, break or laws, and then stay, while at the same time forces law-abiding immigrant-applicants who have been waiting for 2 years to start the process over again, what does the President suggest families like mine tell our relatives who have been obeying our laws and waiting patiently for our broken process?

Never mind, it doesn't matter what any words say, because his actions say "screw the paperwork, just find a way to sneak in & you'll get everything you want once you're here"

104 posted on 06/14/2007 11:58:58 AM PDT by sanchmo
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

In other words...GIVE IT UP!


105 posted on 06/14/2007 11:59:07 AM PDT by xcamel ("It's Thompson Time!")
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse; kristinn
President Reagan said it best, "Trust but verify." President Bush and Secretary Chertoff have not been enforcing vigorously existing penalties against employers as stipulated in Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986". "8 USC 1101 note." How can we believe that you will enforce these proposed penalities?
106 posted on 06/14/2007 12:00:44 PM PDT by kabar
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Oh yeah.....

Welcome to FR...

Now......enforce the borders.

Enforce the current laws.

And eliminate anchor babies.

Propose/do those three things...and I will have a large donation to the campaign of your choice.

107 posted on 06/14/2007 12:02:11 PM PDT by Osage Orange (Ignore the Propaganda.....Focus on what you see...........)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

“For those employers who do knowingly hire illegal immigrants, please know that we intend to penalize these employers strongly,”

Double secret probation! “Del Monte, go and sin no more!”
(wink wink, eh, is she a goer, know what I mean? Eh? Eh?)


108 posted on 06/14/2007 12:02:40 PM PDT by tumblindice (Hey Nick, my cow died so I don't need your bull)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

Here is what I’ve been pushing for...

RICO lawyers could turn it around in a few years and MAKE MONEY at the same time. I’m surprised they haven’t done it already.

In the absence of enforcement,we can get the word out in the meantime that there is money to be made in filing RICO lawsuits against employers who hire illegal aliens.

Employers would have no trouble shutting down the border if they could get sued by someone under the RICO statutes for hiring these people in the first place. The next time an illegal alien kills someone in a drunk driving accident or somesuch thing, I’m going to point out that the victim’s family might be able to seek compensation from the employer under these statutes in the hopes that it would catch on. If this did catch on, would see such a swift backlash against illegal immigration that no employer would go near these people and they’ll all simply want to go back home.


109 posted on 06/14/2007 12:07:29 PM PDT by Kevmo (We need to get away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party ~Duncan Hunter)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Welcome to Free Republic, sir. You’ll get a good idea where your base stands on the issues here. FWIW, securing the border and stopping the flow of illegals is non negotiable. Even most of the moonbat lefties out there are with us on this issues.
110 posted on 06/14/2007 12:07:36 PM PDT by DogBarkTree (The correct word isn't "immigrant" when what they are doing is "invading".)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

Dear Sir,
Enforce the laws we have now please.
What is happening to the fence that was supposed to be built by 2008? I heard nothing has been built yet.

Do not attempt to pass this bill, you are going to lose all financing of the Republican party and most power for probably 20 years.

Have a nice day. :-)


111 posted on 06/14/2007 12:09:13 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse; Duncan Hunter Ambassador

Sam:

Did you know that N Thompson posts here on Free Republic from the WHITE HOUSE?

For Nick’s benefit, y’all should know that Sam Hunter, Duncan Hunter’s son, signed up here on Free Republic as “Duncan Hunter Ambassador” a few months ago as our liasion to DH’s campaign.


112 posted on 06/14/2007 12:09:43 PM PDT by Kevmo (We need to get away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party ~Duncan Hunter)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
With all due respect to you and to President Bush, I am 100% against the proposed bill, or any modification to it that does not first require that the border be secured before any of the other provisions can come into force. I say this as someone who has voted for President Bush twice before, and who still believes him to be a good leader.

I am in no way against immigration - legal immigration, that is. In the early 20th century 3 of my 4 grandparents and 6 of my 8 great grandparents (and numerous other relatives) came to this country. Most of them and their children would, but for being able to come here, have been murdered in Hitler's gas chambers or just shot in the back of the head. My mother would have never made it to her 8th birthday, so I would not be alive but for the generosity of this country in admitting my relatives. Further, my wife is a Mexican citizen, and but for the generosity of this country in admitting her, I would not only not be married (at least to her), but my kids would never have been born. It is, therefore, utterly clear and without doubt that I favor immigration.

However, ALL of these people - repeat ALL - came here legally, gladly learned English, obeyed our laws, paid their taxes and raised their kids to be good Americans and to contribute to this nation. NONE of them marched in the streets with the flag of their birth nation, protesting this country, and none of them demanded any aid or preferences of any kind. NONE of them committed any crimes, or placed any kind of burden on our judicial system or health care system.

Simply put, this bill spits in the face of every person who ever came here legally, who did things the right way. It gives preference and AMNESTY to people who have violated our laws, it puts them ahead of others who have waited patiently to come here legally, and it assaults our taxpaying citizens with the certainty of massive increases in the cost of welfare, healthcare, Social Security and policing costs. It is a giant insult to all of us who pay taxes and who obey court orders, because these illegals don't have to pay back taxes under the bill in question and it doesn't make those who have ignored deportation orders ineligible for the Z visas.

I don't believe that it is impossible to control our border.

I don't believe that "regularizing" (i.e. granting AMNESTY) to 12-20 million lawbreakers is wise or just in ANY sense of those words.

I DO believe that this bill will only encourage massive additional disrespect and contempt for the rule of law, and discourage millions of additional people from participating in the political process - because it will be viewed as corrupt and completely unresponsive. It will be a signal to EVERYONE that obeying the law is strictly optional.

I am astounded beyond my capacity for belief that anyone who cares about the future of the Republican Party could even consider the "regularization" of 12-20 million under-educated and under-paid people who grew up (for the most part) in Socialist economic systems. For crying out loud, TED KENNEDY is a sponsor of this bill - President Bush should run the other way as fast as he can!

If this bill is passed and signed into law, it will be like a giant bell being rung to announce the death of the Republican Party. Our country will also cease to be what it is today or what it was when I grew up in the '60s and '70's.

I implore President Bush to stop pushing this bill, and to enforce the sanctity of our borders (which is necessary to succeed in the War on Terror) and existing laws.

113 posted on 06/14/2007 12:12:49 PM PDT by Ancesthntr
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Mr. Thompson,

Thank you for visiting here. I think more White House staffers should visit and read what's being said here.

That said, I won't support any dealing with illegals already here until the entire fence is built and a mechanism is in place to facilitate legal immigrantion. Those that have tried to follow the laws of our country should come before those that have not.

Second, why does this bill give a person who has broken the laws of our country a Z visa after a 24 hour check? It is taking 10-12 WEEKS for me to get a passport and I am a Citizen!

Third, this bill is amnesty. Please ask that our intelligence not be further insulted by pretending it's not.

Please enforce the laws already on the books and maybe we can deal with those here illegally sometime in the future (but starting to deport them now would be a good start).

Thank you.

114 posted on 06/14/2007 12:15:26 PM PDT by TopDog2 (Onward Christian soldiers...)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

I like my amnesty plan!
Please call them INVADERS and don’t compare them to people who are legal aliens!
IF you aid and abet CRIMINALS, you are a criminal!

President Bush has been great on most things except for our border.
He has been great on the war on terrorists.
But on the border he is a gross failure.
He acted fast and correct on the 3,000+ people murdered at the world trade center.
He ignores the many rapes, murders and robberies which might be larger than the murders and money loss at the world trade center.
More Americans are abducted on the border of Mexico than in Iraq!

Start building the fence.
It should be made a felony for Criminals who overstay their visas and Invaders.

I believe we should give amnesty to these poor CRIMINALS or INVADERS.
This should be a 2 week amnesty to get the heck out of our Country.
The ones who ignore this amnesty should be buried in a tent city jail and fined $10,000 or buried elsewhere.
All aiders and abettors of these CRIMINALS or INVADERS should get 1 year in a tent city jail and a $10,000 fine for each CRIMINAL aided.
Those in government should be the first ones charged.


115 posted on 06/14/2007 12:15:40 PM PDT by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (Remember the Alamo, Goliad and WACO, It is Time for a new San Jacinto)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
6 months?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaaha!

You get that for too many parking tickets in some states, and Indiana will stick you away for more than that if you toss a bag of trash out your car window inside the limits of an incorporated city or town.

The penalty for employing illegal aliens has go to include serious jail time, e.g. 10 to 20 years, with corporate presidents and board members subject to penalty as well, and possibly even stockholders with 1% or more of outstanding stocks or options.

Otherwise, it's not a penalty for your resolute criminally inclined employer.

You are going to have to get such legislation in place and prosecute several dozen employers before anyone here is going to agree that unlawful border crossers and visa jumpers should have first place in the "lawful resident" line ahead of honest applications for legal immigration.

116 posted on 06/14/2007 12:19:00 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse; joanie-f; B4Ranch; Travis McGee; Spiff; calcowgirl; nicmarlo; Borax Queen; ...
First, let me tell you that any spokesman for the federal government, especially the White House, has zero credibility with me (and most of Free Republic) when talking about illegal aliens (for your future reference, we don't like the politically correct but factually ridiculous term "undocumented immigrants").

I recognize that living and working among Washington's political elite has probably left you with the touching but thoroughly mistaken notion that there are some Republicans left who actually trust the federal government when it comes to illegal alien issues. Let me disabuse you of that notion. Your boss has now managed to completely lose his conservative base, and now seems determined to destroy the Republican party or what's left of it (RINOs excepted). Every true conservative I know, and most Republicans, now have a very high level of distrust when it comes to the federal government--this includes the administration and Congress, as well as the embarrassing herd of federal bureaucrats working hard to accomplish absolutely nothing the people want.

When it comes to illegal alien issues, general statements of intent by the federal government are worthless based on the record. You have told us how essential it is that we support the War on Terror while completely ignoring border security here and intentionally failing to enforce the immigration laws of the United States. In this respect, you have been contemptuously blatant in your disregard both for the national sovereignty of the United States and for the clearly expressed wishes of the American people.

Now, please explain to us why we should accord any level of credibility to anything coming out of the mouths of federal government representatives on illegal alien issues? After that, feel free to attempt to persuade us that it really is beneficial to reward 20 - 30 million illegal alien lawbreakers with amnesty and citizenship as well as permit--if not encourage--another 50 - 75 million or so citizens of Mexico to flood into the United States to dilute our culture, ignore our language, and to further clog our infrastructure, increase our taxes, clutter up our streets and freeways, and our medical and school facilities.

Come right ahead, Mr. Thompson. We'll be waiting to hear what you have to say. Please try to remember, though, that you're no longer talking to the uninformed. We understand the issues. All of them.

117 posted on 06/14/2007 12:19:36 PM PDT by Czar ( StillFedUptotheTeeth@Washington)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

Millions for de Fence. Not one cent for amnesty!


118 posted on 06/14/2007 12:20:02 PM PDT by MARTIAL MONK
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To: philman_36

Sorry I’m not buying it.

First, why is it the US should be the ONLY country that MUST accept illegal aliens as full citizens when Mexico, Spain, France etc does not. A quick read of the Mexican Government laws on immigration, both legal and illegal, is a good starting point.

Secondly, since when have we become a nation of ILLEGAL immigration. For the millions of us who came from legal immigrants, this amnesty (let’s not mince words this is amnesty) is a slap in the fact to their plight to come to this country, assimilate and help make the US what it is today.

Third, don’t give me this garbage that border laws will be enforced, the immigrants must pay a fine, the employeers will be fined or worse for violations. We’ve been hearing that for years and nothing has been done. There are only so many times you can lie to the American people and expect them to believe it.

Remember, you’re now talking to a group of conservatives, ones that used to be the primary and respected base of the GOP. The ones that handed you all the White House, Senate and House on a silver platter, just to have it thrown away like a piece of garbage. We’re not a bunch of liberals who believe the government is the cure for all ills. No cradle to grave mentality here.

You fooled us once in the 80’s, we’re not stupid enough to be fooled again.


119 posted on 06/14/2007 12:22:04 PM PDT by Brytani (Keeper of the FR Loofah, Bath-cap and Rubber Duckie)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
fines for hiring an illegal worker are $5,000 maximum per illegal worker

It's been awhile since the Mrs. worked in HR, but I was always led to believe that a (single/one/per illegal) fraudulent I-9 carried a $10,000 penalty as far back as 10 years ago.

Does the new legislation reduce the penalty?

120 posted on 06/14/2007 12:22:36 PM PDT by HiJinx (Ask me about Troop Support...)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Why should anyone care what kind of employer fines this bill would impose? No one has shown the will to do actual, consistent enforcement. That's what matters - not what's in the law - cause what's already law is just fine.

These enforcement provisions are merely intended to reduce our opposition to the legalization/amnesty/path-to-citizenship/regularization. The White House, Ted Kennedy, et al. are holding enforcement, and the fence, hostage. You know this. The problem with their strategy is that we know very well that these hostage-takers have betrayed us many times in the past.
121 posted on 06/14/2007 12:22:47 PM PDT by ruination
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Why should anyone care what kind of employer fines this bill would impose? No one has shown the will to do actual, consistent enforcement. That's what matters - not what's in the law - cause what's already law is just fine.

These enforcement provisions are merely intended to reduce our opposition to the legalization/amnesty/path-to-citizenship/regularization. The White House, Ted Kennedy, et al. are holding enforcement, and the fence, hostage. You know this. The problem with their strategy is that we know very well that these hostage-takers have betrayed us many times in the past.
122 posted on 06/14/2007 12:22:48 PM PDT by ruination
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse; devolve; wardaddy
Thanks for the ping, and the graphic, devolve. It is absolutely perfect!

Thank you, too, Mr. Thompson for engaging those of us who are in the process of being sold down the river by your boss, whom I voted for twice, and who is the beneficiary of many of my $$$. You are a brave man. ;o)

I take issue with this.


"I would like to point out that the Secretary is authorized to reduce or mitigate penalities against employers who in good faith are trying to comply with the law. "


I don't know where you all got the idea that it's hard to verify a person's standing in this country. My husband hires people every day, and he has no problems weeding out the illegals.

And, he does NOT hire illegals...period. It's against the law. Unlike many employers, he loves and respects this country, and it's laws.

I've pinged one of those folks who conducts business as my husband does...wardaddy. Those who comply with the law in their business practices pay dearly to do so, but wouldn't do business in any other manner.

This bill is a slap in the face to those employers who do everything they can to comply with the laws on the books.

Speaking of which, why don't you folks in the DC bubble enforce the laws we have now? Should you do so, there would be no need to spend this time debating one of the most perverse, and treasonous, bills I've ever seen in my life.

And, tell those amnesty supporters in the Senate that we don't appreciate backroom deals, and their attempts to thwart the committee process, to ram this down our throats.

Remind them that THEY work for US. And, they can be fired by the same people who sent them to DC.

One more thing...please tell Trent Lott, Lindsey Graham and those who believe this amnesty bill (Z visas ARE amnesty) will somehow help John McCain win the Republican nomination, that they are smoking dope. There is absolutely NO way John McCain will win the nomination, especially now, not that I ever thought he had a chance.

123 posted on 06/14/2007 12:23:16 PM PDT by dixiechick2000 (There ought to be one day-- just one-- when there is open season on senators. ~~ Will Rogers)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
You'd better hurry. We've got a good opponent to defeat Hagel and soon we'll have one to run against Lindsey Grahamnesty.

They're toast. They'll be leaving D.C. in disgrace along with the rest of you.
124 posted on 06/14/2007 12:24:45 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudi & McVain: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: theDentist; nthompsonwhitehouse
"And one more thing: How dare members of the GOP in the highest offices refer to us as ‘bigots’ simply because we want immigrants to follow the rules as many of our parent did?"


Thank you...I meant to mention that.

We don't have "trouble with brown people", either, especially if they are here legally.

125 posted on 06/14/2007 12:25:49 PM PDT by dixiechick2000 (There ought to be one day-- just one-- when there is open season on senators. ~~ Will Rogers)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

Sorry, no sale. I do not trust Jorge to do anything to secure the borders. Show me the fence stretching from the Gulf to the Pacific and the flow of illegals has stopped first then after the border is secured then we can talk about guest workers and what to do with those here.


126 posted on 06/14/2007 12:28:07 PM PDT by Hydroshock (Duncan Hunter For President, checkout gohunter08.com.)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

There are GOOD young American boys and women fighting halfway around the world, shedding their blood and dying to protect the American way of life.

Yet our laws, language, and culture is being overwhelmed by people who have broken the law, and the White House somehow thinks that that’s just OK, I guess.

You have an OBLIGATION, a SWORN OATH, to protect our heritage and laws.

But you would rather look the other way, basically telling Mr. and Mrs. Born-In-Peoria to go to hell.

Thanks alot.
Not.


127 posted on 06/14/2007 12:29:39 PM PDT by djf (Bush's legacy: Way more worried about Iraqs borders than our own!!! A once great nation... sad...)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
How many construction contractors have been fined for violations? How many landscape firms? How many hotels? How many farmers? How many are operating in the underground cash market? How many thousands of small firms have been cited or fined for repeated violations?

You continue over and over again to repeat the mantra that these so called 'guest workers' or currently illegal aliens will do the jobs Americans won't do. With all due respect most Americans do those jobs themselves. We mow our own lawns, do our own laundry, clean our own houses, wash our own cars, etc., etc., and we make our kids do the same. If we need low cost labor to perform jobs that do not go filled at the low end of the wage scale, give them to some of the groups that have a relatively high unemployment rate according to the latest Household Survey; like teeagers, 16-19, at 17.3%; blacks at 8.5%; latinos or hispanics at 5.8%. Remove both the instant amnesty (or legalization if you prefer) and guest worker portions of the program, and pass an enforcement only program. If that works over an extended period of time most of us will consider measured steps to handle those folks still remaining in an illegal alien status. From a political standpoint you are certainly aware that the AFL-CIO and other unions are strongly opposed to the guest worker portions of the bill. Most of us on the right side of the political divide and a number of conservatives in the Congress are opposed to the amnesty portions of the Senate bill, which is couched in the VISA catagories defined as Z1, Z2 and Z3. Many blue and white collar workers, on both left and right, are opposed to those portions of the bill as well. Now don't tell me that there is no amnesty granted in any part of the bill. You may as well be explicit about that term, as it was used to describe the 1986 bill, and get pass that controversy.

Even if offered what percentage of the illegal alien population who resided in country before January 1, 2007, will actually come forward and apply for the Z visas, given the fines and process involved. Many may just stay in the shadows as they do now and ignore any effort at enforcement. The Senate bill also does nothing to mitigate the effect of local jurisdictions who do not report violations to ICE, particularly in cities designated as sanctuaries. How would you propose that problem to be corrected? Regards, gpapa
128 posted on 06/14/2007 12:30:06 PM PDT by gpapa
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

We do not trust you government and its minions.

I believe there are in place already verification procedures for employers. It is voluntary, but failure to take advantage of it renders them guilty of any illegal hiring and subject to fines and jail.

You have lost the Republican Party and are on the verge of losing the country for lack of principle and for pandering to the business interests in this country at the expense not only of Americans who have lost their jobs, but the illegal slave class who cry to Heaven itself for vengeance.

Shame on you, Congress and the President.


129 posted on 06/14/2007 12:30:38 PM PDT by amihow
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To: philman_36

We conservatives feel abandoned and betrayed by BUSH and Co.....there is no way you can paint this pig and take away its OINK.


130 posted on 06/14/2007 12:32:50 PM PDT by Halgr (Once a Marine, always a Marine - Semper Fi)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Nicholas, You're a brave man. Bush has angered many of his base supporters, myself among them.

Bush says that current immigration situation is "unacceptable". It's only unacceptable because Bush refuses to do his constitutional duty and secure our borders and enforce our current immigration laws. If Bush would do so, most all of our immigration problems would vanish.

Bush's lack of a winning plan on illegal immigration has already led to the loss of the Republican Congress.

Years ago even Senate Leader Frist was saying secure the borders first. If, at that time Bush had deigned to work with fellow Republicans and truly secured the border, he could have come back to a Republican congress a year or two later and asked for a guest worker plan, they would have gladly passed that.

Then Bush could have sailed into the past elections with his fellow Republicans happy with a secure border and Hispanics happy with a guest worker plan, a win-win strategy.

But no, Bush went with the lose-lose strategy, where he alienated his base Republican voters and angered the Hispanics who then voted 70%~76% for Democrats.

Fellow Republicans paid the price for Bush's stubborn short sightedness.

If Bush really gets behind it and pulls every lever of power available to him, he still has time to prove himself by securing the borders for the entire world to see for a year, and then coming back to Congress for a guest worker plan and maybe amnesty and citizenship. But if he continues to ride this horrific immigration legislation over the cliff, he will only continue to rip apart the Republican Party, and that will be his legacy.

131 posted on 06/14/2007 12:33:03 PM PDT by RJL (Mexico must have incriminating photos of Bush from his drinking days.)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Firstly, let me thank you for taking the time to post.

IMHO if this bill passes, it will be hung around the President's neck and become his sad legacy. It is simply WRONG to reward illegal behavior. To do so, only invites MORE illegal behavior. I would really like to know why MY President thinks this is a good idea. Doesn't he realize that this will hammer the Republican Party for decades? This will all but assure we have President Hillary in 2008!

I love and respect President Bush as a man of faith BUT this is just simply WRONG!

132 posted on 06/14/2007 12:33:33 PM PDT by teletech (Friends don't let friends vote DemocRAT)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

Tell the President that even though I disagree with his stance on the immigration bill, that my support of him remains strong. He is still the right man at the right time. I am praying for him. God Bless W!


133 posted on 06/14/2007 12:35:12 PM PDT by carton253 (And if that time does come, then draw your swords and throw away the scabbards.)
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To: MinorityRepublican
I believe that it is important for us to reach out to the Hispanics while at the same time checking out the background of each illegal immigrant in the United States to make sure that they are not potential terrorists. It is also important to secure our borders by building a fence to control the flow of undocumented immigrants.

Explain how you check the background of someone from South America that has done all sorts of crimes down there and then entered the US illegally? You can't! That's one of the silliest things about this whole charade!

You can't even do a comprehensive electronic criminal history on LEGAL AMERICANS! Before Mr. Thompson got to the point in government that he could work in the White House do you think they punched a few keys on a computer and said "he's clean"? Nope, they had people go out and investigate him by talking to friends, neighbors, employers, etc. Why did they do that? Because there is no such thing as a comprehensive criminal history background check!

134 posted on 06/14/2007 12:36:37 PM PDT by isthisnickcool (I believe that's my stapler....)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

If you haven’t gotten the message yet after all these posts, here it is again: Enforce current laws - Build the fence - Stop the current torrent of illegals pouring in - Tell us the truth!


135 posted on 06/14/2007 12:37:15 PM PDT by Socratic (Never be afraid to try something new. An amatuer built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic.)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Border security is imperative in fighting terrorism. How about securing our nation's borders before the border of Iraq?

The Executive branch's job is to ENFORCE our nation's laws. The American people do NOT need another immigration law when the track record on enforcement is abysmal at best regarding immigration law under USC title 8.

Immigration law is NOT broken. Enforcement is broken.

Lastly, as an American who fought for this country and opposes the current Kennedy - Kyl bill, I am quite angry at being called a vigilante, bigot and unpatriotic by the current resident of the Oval office.

136 posted on 06/14/2007 12:39:02 PM PDT by afnamvet (The Constitution of The United States of America, Read it, Live it.)
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To: philman_36

Bush is Persona non grata here these days.


137 posted on 06/14/2007 12:39:23 PM PDT by Halgr (Once a Marine, always a Marine - Semper Fi)
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To: philman_36

They can make the penalties as severe or lenient as they like. Doesn’t really matter when they have no intention of applying them.


138 posted on 06/14/2007 12:41:44 PM PDT by Wolfie
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
You get the short straw?

The man and the plan you represent have fast become symbols of what it means to be anti-American.

Since it apparent you and yours believe us to be stupid and thus feel free to lie to us without even the pretense of telling the truth, there is no point in drawing you into honest discussion.

Nor is there much point in educating you and the thieves and liars you stand for. You can't hear and you don't care.

Just what was the reason for your pathetic post? Did you come up with this or was it a committee decision?

As if you didn't know the impact this bill would have on this country.

Maybe you don't. Maybe you were selected because you are the most clueless. If so, take a couple days and cruse the threads on the amnesty bill. You will learn a great deal.

Please feel free to come back and post again. Encourage some of your buddies to do the same. But hey, get up to speed. Until then you're just target practice.

Isn't there one flunky with enough wit to stand toe to toe, point by point on the merits of anmesty? If any of you believe even just a little bit in this crap you ought to be able to defend and present it.

Yeah, I know I gave you credit there for a second of being in at least a tiny position of integrity. That's just one of the many things you guys have set about destroying.

And by the way, you aren't just the messenger. Those who are anti-American and those who support them are equally accountable.

139 posted on 06/14/2007 12:42:11 PM PDT by Do Be (The heart is smarter than the head.)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
As a reminder of what’s in the bill, fines for hiring an illegal worker are $5,000 maximum per illegal worker for the first offense, $10,000 maximum per illegal worker for the second, $25,000 maximum per illegal worker for the third , and $75,000 maximum per illegal worker for the fourth.

In addition, the bill increases the maximum criminal penalty for a pattern or practice of unlawful hiring twenty-five-fold, from $3,000 to $75,000, and would impose a prison term of up to six months. This represents a significant increase in fines for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.

You tell us the maximum fines, what are the minimums, which are far more likely to be meted out by the Bush administration?

140 posted on 06/14/2007 12:42:17 PM PDT by RJL (Mexico must have incriminating photos of Bush from his drinking days.)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

For some reason, somewhere along the last five years the WH and the RNC has gotten the idea that conservatives can be treated the same as Democrats treat their Blacks. You can’t. Get over it. If you want the support of your base, start supporting your base. It’s as simple as that. Learn it; believe it; live it.


141 posted on 06/14/2007 12:42:26 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse
Oh, puhleeze. The entire problem has been employers are presented with documentation they know is fraudulent, but wink wink nudge nudge they take it at face value -- you CANNOT prove they "knowingly" hired an illegal! (and in the employers defense if they challenge it the EEOC kicks them for being racist.) The stupid employment verification system in the bill says you CANNOT fire the illegal until ALL his appeals are exhausted -- kinda like being on death row.

But you aren't fooling anyone, you know all that and you've read Senator Session's take down of your bill. Here's what I want to know: Why are you fools supporting a bill that will make us a permanent minority party?

I come from California. I was a pollwatcher as a kid in the Carter - Ford race, was involved with a lot of assembly and state senate races. Typical volunteer. I watched illegal immigration change California from a swing state to a blue state, both due to stuffing illegals into Dem districts in reapportionment to increase Dem strength and because naturalized hispanics voted Democrat about 2 - 1. (We won't go into the illegal aliens who openly voted and bragged about it on TV, in the mid 90s, after the reporter demonstrated how easy voter fraud was the LA County Registrar tried to prosecute the reporter -- hilarity ensued.)

This margin was due both to overwhelming anti-American propaganda in the Spanish press and because they were poor and wanted taxpayers services. As one told me when I knocked on his door during a precinct walk in 1988 for a Riverside assembly candidate: "No Republicans, Democrats give you more stuff." Lots of middle class flight out of the state further drove our numbers down as folks got fed up and left the state (and, in fairness, suburban white women got very turned off by the GOP for reasons not relevant to this discussion which hurt us further.) And before you bring it up, anybody who tells you 187 is what turned the poor hispanics "against" us is crazy, they never were for us. The court overturning 187 did accelerate the middle class flight that began with the riots in 92.

I left California for Virginia, and I see here in Virginia the same situation developing. The democrats have ALWAYS been the party of the very poor and the very rich, and the GOP has ALWAYS represented the middle class. What, in God's name, makes you think if we import millions of poor people they will vote Republican????? It's a two fold political hit: If you think the Spanish language press or the MSM will give the GOP **ANY** credit for passing this "pander-sty" you are crazy -- AND why would these people vote against their financial interests?

This bill is wrong on policy and wrong politically. Please understand: if this bill passes I personally will never vote or volunteer again. It will be pointless, we will be a tiny minority and we won't matter. I have better things to do with my time then help a party bent on suicide.

142 posted on 06/14/2007 12:44:46 PM PDT by justanotherfreeper
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To: Czar; Borax Queen
please explain to us why we should accord any level of credibility to anything coming out of the mouths of federal government representatives on illegal alien issues? After that, feel free to attempt to persuade us that it really is beneficial to reward 20 - 30 million illegal alien lawbreakers with amnesty and citizenship as well as permit--if not encourage--another 50 - 75 million or so citizens of Mexico to flood into the United States to dilute our culture, ignore our language, and to further clog our infrastructure, increase our taxes, clutter up our streets and freeways, and our medical and school facilities.

Come right ahead, Mr. Thompson. We'll be waiting to hear what you have to say. Please try to remember, though, that you're no longer talking to the uninformed. We understand the issues. All of them.

Excellent, as always, Czar!

143 posted on 06/14/2007 12:44:50 PM PDT by nicmarlo
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To: All

FYI

The Office of Strategic Initiatives, part of the Executive Office of the White House, is “responsible for coordinating the planning and development of a long-range strategy for achieving Presidential priorities.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Office_of_Strategic_Initiatives


144 posted on 06/14/2007 12:44:50 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philman_36

Well, if you are still listening, I would like to know why children born in the USA automatically become citizens. We do not need this and it should be removed from out immigration policy.

Make it part of the bill and you will win a few more friends.


145 posted on 06/14/2007 12:45:44 PM PDT by Right Wing Assault ("..this administration is planning a 'Right Wing Assault' on values and ideals.." - John Kerry)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse

What is the point in having penalties for knowingly hiring people who do not exist? You’re going to make the illegal aliens legal, so how will it be possible to find anyone illegal to hire?


146 posted on 06/14/2007 12:50:01 PM PDT by LilAngel (No blood for quislings)
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To: nthompsonwhitehouse; kristinn

Mr Thompson,

Welcome to FR, newbie! I appreciate the effort of the White House to communicate with the blogger base on this issue.

I hope this is not just an attempt to snow us; if so, it won’t work. If you hope to have a dialog though, you might learn something from the base about why the White House is off-course on this issue ... We are aware of what promises (many) were made then broken (all of them). We know numbers like arrests and fines pale in comparison to #s of actual crossings, numbers of currently employed illegals. Consider:

“An additional 630,000 are at large, ignoring deportation orders, and 300,000 more who entered state and local prisons for committing crimes are to be deported but will probably slip through the cracks after completing their sentences.”
http://www.parapundit.com/archives/cat_immigration_law_enforcement.html

This is a travesty. We know about it. A few factoids about the number of fish we are catching won’t distract us from the knowledge of the large numbers of criminal aliens we are letting get away from deportation.

Also - WE ARE READING ACTUAL LEGISLATIVE TEXT.We are tracking exact votes on amendments. We are aware of the holes in the bill, such as the 20 loopholes Sen Sessions identified. We know of the $2.5 trillion cost estimate from Heritage. We know further that 600,000 illegal aliens with court ordered deportations are eligible for amnesty. We apparently are more informed than the President himself, who peddles non-credible pap about it.

I would like to direct you to this blog:
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/
And its numerous posts on immigration. In particular:
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/05/this-immigration-bill-is-built-to-fail.html

There is no way the ‘comprehensive’ approach is the right way to go. It is doomed, destined, and designed to fail to do the things law-and-order anti-illegal-immigration people want it to do: Can we as Americans determine who comes here and who does not?

In addition, see also:
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/06/12-million-z-visas-5-million-more.html
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/06/illegal-aliens-cast-ballots-in-bexar.html
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/06/mr-president-build-up-that-wall.html
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/06/austin-sanctuary-city.html
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/06/gop-base-revolts-on-immigration.html
http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/06/hutchison-and-cornyn-on-record-on.html

As for your claims on enforcement: Bush touts the ‘enforcement first’ approach that real conservatives advocate. There is no reason for the President to insist on amnesty/legalization as a predicate for secure borders and immigration law enforcement. The President should publicly, and soon, throw in the towel on the ‘comprehensive’ approach and instead come out with this plan. A plan in 12 months to:
1. Build the wall, all 800 miles - now - and secure the border.
2. Enforce the immigration law we have vigorously.
Deport the hundreds of thousands of criminal aliens and aliens with deportation orders. *Really* end catch and release, *really* end the many hidden amnesties, *really* end the illegal sanctuary behavior of some state and local authorities, and get the immigraton status of all criminals in custody. And deport them.
3. Delay any change to immigration law until #1 and #2 are done.

This approach is supported by the majority of voters in a recent Rasmussen poll. 51% say to do a step at a time, as above, while only 16% support renewing effort to pass ‘comprehensive’ bill now.

The Bush administration has had 6 years to secure the border and enforce immigration law. It hasn’t done so. The Bush administration has been peddling the sham-nesty proposal since at least January 2004, calling it by another name but always willing to give amnesty (ie legalization and citizenship for a small fine, just as in 1986 bill) to illegal immigrants.

“As a reminder of what’s in the bill, fines for hiring an illegal worker are $5,000 maximum per illegal worker for the first offense, $10,000 maximum per illegal worker for the second, $25,000 maximum per illegal worker for the third , and $75,000 maximum per illegal worker for the fourth.”

What were the fines in the 1986 bill? I bet they were pretty stiff too ... theoretically.

BUT WHAT ARE WE TO THINK OF THIS? ...
“Proving Gingrich’s point, Michael Chertoff, secretary of Homeland Insecurity and Amnesty (OK, that’s not what it says on his business card, but it should), announced, per The Washington Post, that enforcement is a “hostage” of those who oppose the Bush amnesty bill. That is, either opponents give in, or Chertoff won’t enforce the existing law. Correction: Chertoff won’t pretend to enforce the law.”
http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-oppin145254586jun14,0,6136199.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines

APPARENTLY, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS SO FORGOTTEN IT’S CONSTITUTIONAL DUTIES IT IS DECIDING TO ONLY ENFORCE THE LAW IF IT CAN GET A PROGRAM IT LIKES ADOPTED!

We do not believe President Bush should advocate a bill that was written by Senator Kennedy to have holes that undercut the very principles we believe and that the President claims are in this bill. We cannot trust a President who advocates a repeat of the mistakes of 1986, yet fails to even acknowledge these legitimate concerns of the bill. He fails even to stand up and demand the reasonable improvements (like Cornyn’s, Coleman’s and Coburn’s) be done in the bill. Apparently he is President Doormat for any liberal bill that Congress sends his way.

We cannot trust a President who uses the National Guard as a PR prop to get a bill passed, then forgets about them once the bill push has ended. If the President can assign 6,000 to the border, why not 12,000, and why not do it now irrespective of status of any bill?

If you want to shaft us, continue to ignore us and advocate sham-nesty. If you want to build the trust back up, stopping pushing for this awful Senate bill and start doing the things administratively that we all know can be done.

Mr President, Build That Wall!


147 posted on 06/14/2007 12:50:12 PM PDT by WOSG (Stop Z-visa amnesty! Call your Senator today! 202-224-3121.)
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To: philman_36

It makes no difference how stiff the penalties are if the laws aren’t being enforced anyway.


148 posted on 06/14/2007 12:50:31 PM PDT by BeckB
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To: philman_36

It makes no difference how stiff the penalties are if the laws aren’t being enforced anyway.


149 posted on 06/14/2007 12:50:37 PM PDT by BeckB
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To: philman_36

Just another loophole. Why should we be surprised? On the GOP side, it’s the businesses that profit from illegal labor that are pushing this bill. Why should we be shocked that they’re going to get an out on penalties?


150 posted on 06/14/2007 12:50:47 PM PDT by DesScorp
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