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Nazis Rock on in Croatia
Republican Riot ^ | June 19, 2006 | Julia Gorin

Posted on 06/23/2007 11:07:39 AM PDT by Bokababe

Received this morning from Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Israel Director Efraim Zuroff (bold emphasis added): “Wiesenthal Center Expresses Outrage At Massive Outburst of Nostalgia for Croatian Fascism at Zagreb Rock Concert”:

Jerusalem – The Simon Wiesenthal Center today expressed its sense of outrage and disgust in the wake of a massive show of fascist salutes, symbols and uniforms at a rock concert by popular ultra-nationalist Croatian singer “Thompson” attended by 60,000 people in Zagreb last night. In a letter sent today to Croatian President Stjepan Mesic, the Center’s chief Nazi-hunter Israel director Dr. Efraim Zuroff noted the presence of Croatian dignities, including the Minister of Science, Education and Sports, at the event and called for the banning of concerts by singers like Thompson who glorify fascism and racism. According to Zuroff:

“According to the Croatian media, the concert turned into a massive fascist demonstration with tens of thousands of people shouting the infamous Ustasha salute of “Za dom spremni.” In addition,… numerous participants came wearing Ustasha uniforms and symbols. To make matters worse, in attendance last night were officials and members of Parliament, as well as the Minister of Science, Education [!!] and Sports.

“Under the current circumstances, I believe that the time has come to prohibit public concerts by those who write songs of nostalgia for Jasenovac and inspire the show of Ustasha symbols, which constitute open and blatant incitement against all the minorities in Croatia.”

(Excerpt) Read more at juliagorin.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Israel
KEYWORDS: balkans; clintonlegacy; croatia; genocide; holocaust; holocaustdenier; islam; nazi; ustashe; ustasheapologist
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To: Banat

You wrote:

“Yeah, VLADIMIR, you’re an American... WTF?”

Exactly. I am an American. I am not a Croat. I am not a Serb. I see things as they really are and do not make rash, or irrational judgments. I actually take the time to look at the historical evidence. This is why I don’t put forward a known forgery as someone else here did. Instead, I posted the reputed author’s own strenuous denial as to ever having produced that document. The others here are reduced to merely insulting me. They can’t do much else.

Exactly because I am an American, I refuse to be fooled by Communist propaganda, Nazi propaganda, or weak minded people looking for scapegoats. Try it. You might like being independent minded.


101 posted on 06/25/2007 4:39:53 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998; Banat; kronos77; montyspython; Andy from Beaverton
Exactly because I am an American, I refuse to be fooled by Communist propaganda, Nazi propaganda, or weak minded people looking for scapegoats.

Yet you seem bent on minimizing the Nazi resurgence in Croatia. Why might that be?

102 posted on 06/25/2007 5:08:00 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: FormerLib

You wrote:

“Yet you seem bent on minimizing the Nazi resurgence in Croatia. Why might that be?”

I’m not bent on minimizing anything. We are talking about a Ustashe resurgence and not a Nazi resurgence. The Croatians are not Germans, nor were more than a few ever Nazis. The Ustashe had some similar views, and some horribly similar practices such as genocide, but also some very different views and practices. To call a Ustashe a Nazi is no more correct than to call a German Nazi a Croatian. I don’t assume the two groups were the same because they weren’t. Just because they were allies and shared some similar beliefs and practices makes them no more interchangeable 60 years later than saying the Soviets and Nazis were exactly interchangeable. Apparently this fact - irrefutable fact - has never occurred to you.

Thus, there is a Ustashe resurgence, in Croatia, and not a Nazi resurgence in Croatia. I do not confuse the two no matter how similar in some ways they appear. You make that mistake. I choose not to.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you are using a term for members of the National Socialist GERMAN Workers Party for a group of Croatians. Why aren’t you using the correct term?

Now, having said all of that, I should point out that your question is bogus to begin with. I have done exactly nothing to minimize any “Nazi resurgence” or Ustashe resurgence. One is happening. The other is not. I have correctly noted which one is NOT happening, and have correctly discussed the other - including its past sixty years ago as well as more recently.


103 posted on 06/25/2007 5:43:33 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: All

I believe it is a crime to make Fascist Salutes in Germany;

Yet, that whole crowd was making them in that one photograph.

So many of the old Axis powers was also the old Austro-Hungarian empire with countries like Slovakia and Hungary. As much as I think the Soviet Union repressed democracy in Hungary in the 1950s and I don’t mean to cast stones at anyone, that country was still a part of that empire.

Germany is watched too closely to give an easy resurrection to the old Nazism, though surely, it is there to an extent with your Skinheads and such.

Croatia seems very far away from the main of Europe and somewhat remote as does a lot of the former Yugoslavia; so it is something to be weary of especially, when that prominent family showed up for the concert.

But as for those deriding the church, I categorically do not do that; so much has been written both for and against such involvement. That would take much research.


104 posted on 06/25/2007 5:57:50 AM PDT by RGPII
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To: RGPII

You wrote:

“I believe it is a crime to make Fascist Salutes in Germany;”

I think you’re right, and yet it happens all the time in Germany too.

“Yet, that whole crowd was making them in that one photograph.”

I don’t think there is any law against it in Croatia. At least not yet. And the law would probably be ignored.

“Germany is watched too closely to give an easy resurrection to the old Nazism, though surely, it is there to an extent with your Skinheads and such.”

Yes, indeed. It is a festering problem.

“Croatia seems very far away from the main of Europe and somewhat remote as does a lot of the former Yugoslavia; so it is something to be weary of especially, when that prominent family showed up for the concert.”

Croatia is actually much more plugged into Europe than, say, Serbia. This certainly seems to be the case historically. Croatia has always had a lot of historical contacts with Italy, Germany, Austria, and so on.

“But as for those deriding the church, I categorically do not do that; so much has been written both for and against such involvement. That would take much research.”

It is a fascinating topic.


105 posted on 06/25/2007 6:09:41 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

So your entire argument is based upon not permitting Nazi to be used as a generic term for fascists who support a racial agenda?

Now that is much ado about nothing.


106 posted on 06/25/2007 6:13:20 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: FormerLib

You wrote:

“So your entire argument is based upon not permitting Nazi to be used as a generic term for fascists who support a racial agenda?”

No. And if you want a description of an argument than you might want to define the issue first. We discussed several things here.

“Now that is much ado about nothing.”

No, but your posts are clearly less than nothing.


107 posted on 06/25/2007 6:18:21 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
No, but your posts are clearly less than nothing.

Standin' on your shoulders, chumley

108 posted on 06/25/2007 6:49:47 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: FormerLib

You wrote:

“Standin’ on your shoulders, chumley”

No, you can’t even reach them.

Again, I posted the facts about Stepinac. No one has been able to contest them. You guys posted a forgery and didn’t even know it was a forgery.


109 posted on 06/25/2007 6:53:40 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998; FormerLib; Banat
vladimir998: "I am not Roman Catholic.

vladimir998 (your tagline): "Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome" (St Jerome -- a Roman Catholic Saint from Dalmatia, Croatia)

Add to that Vlad,virtually all your supposed "evidence" supporting Stepinac comes from Roman Catholic sources.

Personally, I don't care what your religion is. You could have argued honestly as a Roman Catholic, but instead you chose to lie about who and what you were -- unless you want to argue that the choice of your tagline from a Roman Catholic Saint from Dalmatia,was "pure coincidence" -- which is just too ridiculous for words.

You've lied about something as obvious as this, then the rest of what you say has zero credibility to anyone other than your fellow propagandists and the "truly stupid"!

110 posted on 06/25/2007 10:31:41 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: vladimir998

Your “facts” were repudiated, get over it.


111 posted on 06/25/2007 10:35:20 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Bokababe

You wrote:

“vladimir998: “I am not Roman Catholic.””

True. I am a Catholic. I am not a Roman Catholic. I have never been a Roman Catholic. I never will be a Roman Catholic. I am a Catholic.

“vladimir998 (your tagline): “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome” (St Jerome — a Roman Catholic Saint from Dalmatia, Croatia)”

Incorrect. Jerome was Catholic. He was not a Roman Catholic nor did he ever refer to himself as one.

“Add to that Vlad,virtually all your supposed “evidence” supporting Stepinac comes from Roman Catholic sources.”

Actually those sources I used refer to themselves as Catholic, or Orthodox or secular. I don’t think i used a single source that refered to itself as “Roman Catholic” if any religion was identified.

“Personally, I don’t care what your religion is. You could have argued honestly as a Roman Catholic, but instead you chose to lie about who and what you were — unless you want to argue that the choice of your tagline from a Roman Catholic Saint from Dalmatia,was “pure coincidence” — which is just too ridiculous for words.”

No, I am a Catholic and have never been a Roman Catholic. I see no reason to identify myself as something I am not.

“You’ve lied about something as obvious as this, then the rest of what you say has zero credibility to anyone other than your fellow propagandists and the “truly stupid”!”

I lied about nothing. I am a Catholic. My parish is called a Catholic parish. My diocese is called a Catholic diocese. My Church is called the ‘Catholic Church’. My catechism is called the “Catechism of the Catholic Church.”

Note that CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

I have never lied about my faith. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a “Roman Catholic”. I am Catholic. I am just as Catholic when I attend a Divine Liturgy in the Russian Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome (yes, there is such a church!) and in the Byzantine Catholic Church, as when I go to my usual Latin Mass.

Maybe you should learn to pay more attention.


112 posted on 06/25/2007 11:21:29 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: FormerLib

You wrote:

“Your “facts” were repudiated, get over it.”

They weren’t refuted. That’s all that counts.


113 posted on 06/25/2007 11:23:54 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Bokababe

By the way, Rocket Scientist, look at post #44 and you see this:

I am not “Roman Catholic.”

Notice how I put the phrase “Roman Catholic” in quotes?

I am not “Roman Catholic” or Roman Catholic, or a papist, or a member of popery, or a Romanist, or Romish. None of those terms is accurate, many of them are outright pejoratives.

I am Catholic.


114 posted on 06/25/2007 11:29:53 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
"I am not now, nor have I ever been, a “Roman Catholic”. I am Catholic. I am just as Catholic when I attend a Divine Liturgy in the Russian Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome .... and in the Byzantine Catholic Church, as when I go to my usual Latin Mass."

The first thing that your statement brings to mind is Bill Clinton saying, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." -- true in the narrowest legal sense of the word, but a bald-face lie by any reasonable standard of common understanding. I am sure that you think that this makes you "smart", but in fact, it just shows your utter disregard for honesty.

The word "Catholic" katholikos from katholou in Greek-- translates to "throughout the whole". It occurs in the Greek classics, e.g., in Aristotle and Polybius, and was freely used by the earlier Christian writers in what we may call its primitive and non-ecclesiastical sense. It's most common translation into English is "universal".

As such, it is simply an adjective that anyone can apply to anything. The Roman Catholic Church sees itself as "The Catholic Church" -- "the universal church", hence it often simply calls itself "Catholic" as a way of pretending it is "the only church that matters". However, if you are under the authority of the Pope of Rome, you are a Roman Catholic" whether you wish to call yourself that or not. I have friends who are Marionite Catholic, but they have never denied that they are Roman Catholic, so I have no idea what your problem is. However, it was and is dishonest to pretend that you "have no horse in this race" when it comes to defending Stepinac.

(St Jerome — a Roman Catholic Saint from Dalmatia, Croatia)”Incorrect. Jerome was Catholic. He was not a Roman Catholic nor did he ever refer to himself as one."

You are not St. Jerome, Vlad. Of course St. Jerome never called himself "a Roman Catholic", there was only one Christian church when he was alive prior to any split with Constantinople. He was, was however the person who translated the Bible into Latin from Greek and Hebrew, and as a result, the whole Christian church no longer spoke a common theological language as it had when the language of Christian theology was Greek. ("Kyrie Eleison" is still a leftover in the Latin Mass from the original Greek.) St. Jerome is only revered in the Western Church and not in the Orthodox Christian Church.

"I am just as Catholic when I attend a Divine Liturgy in the Russian Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome (yes, there is such a church!)..."

The word Orthodox, from the Greek ortho ('right', 'correct') and doxa ('thought', 'teaching', 'glorification')". Common translation into English is "traditional".

Once again, "orthodox" is simply an adjective. However, if I say that I am "an Eastern Orthodox Christian", the common understanding that I belong to the "Holy Orthodox Catholic Church" whose Patriarch is Bartholomew. So when you say that you attend a Divine Liturgy in the Russian Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome (yes, there is such a church!), you and I both know that this church is no longer an authentic "Russian Orthodox Church" if it reports to Rome.

If you and your church ultimately report to Pope Benedict in Rome, Vlad, then you are Roman Catholic, period. Get over it and quit pretneding to be what you are not -- "an objective observer"!

115 posted on 06/25/2007 1:44:44 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

You wrote:

“The first thing that your statement brings to mind is Bill Clinton…”

Your analogy falls flat because Bill Clinton was simply lying. He had had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. He penetrated her with a cigar and had oral sex with her. Go ahead and tell your kids that’s not sex if you REALLY believe that’s the case.

I, on the other hand, didn’t lie. I am not a “Roman Catholic”. I never have been. I never will be.

“The Roman Catholic Church sees itself as “The Catholic Church” — “the universal church”, hence it often simply calls itself “Catholic” as a way of pretending it is “the only church that matters”.”

No. The Catholic Church calls itself the Catholic Church because it is the Catholic Church. It has never said it is the only Church that mattered. Mattering, a minor thing, is not the same thing as being the Catholic Church, a major thing.

“However, if you are under the authority of the Pope of Rome, you are a Roman Catholic” whether you wish to call yourself that or not.”

Wrong. I am not Roman. I am Catholic.

“ I have friends who are Marionite Catholic, but they have never denied that they are Roman Catholic, so I have no idea what your problem is.”

You. Your friends allow you to use that term because they are charitable enough to overlook the fact that you don’t know any better. I don’t claim to be that charitable.

“However, it was and is dishonest to pretend that you “have no horse in this race” when it comes to defending Stepinac.”

I am more objective than you and your buddies here. How many forged documents did I use? NONE.

“You are not St. Jerome, Vlad. Of course St. Jerome never called himself “a Roman Catholic”, there was only one Christian church when he was alive prior to any split with Constantinople.”

Incorrect. Again, we see that you have no idea of what you’re talking about. Ever hear of the Donatist Church? No, apparently not. There were other churches – with valid sacraments no less – long before 1054 when the Eastern Orthodox went to schism. A contemporary of St. Jerome, St. Augustine, made this brilliant point:

“And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house.” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]

“He was, was however the person who translated the Bible into Latin from Greek and Hebrew, and as a result, the whole Christian church no longer spoke a common theological language as it had when the language of Christian theology was Greek. (”Kyrie Eleison” is still a leftover in the Latin Mass from the original Greek.) St. Jerome is only revered in the Western Church and not in the Orthodox Christian Church.”

Again, you have no idea of what you’re talking about. 1) Jerome was not the first man to translate the Biblical into Latin. Clearly you have never heard of the Old Vulgate. 2) There is no reason to assume all Christians EVER spoke a common language. The earliest Christians knew Aramaic, perhaps Hebrew. Some may have know Greek, but not necessarily all. Also, so what if a different language other than Greek was used? I guess Old Church Slavonic should never have been developed? 3) Also, don’t be so quick to discount St. Jerome. He may be revered only in the West (although clearly some Eastern Orthodox – including modern bishops – are sure to call him a Saint: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7103.asp) but that doesn’t lessen his importance. Some saints have no cult in the West, but are giants in the East.

“Once again, “orthodox” is simply an adjective. However, if I say that I am “an Eastern Orthodox Christian”, the common understanding that I belong to the “Holy Orthodox Catholic Church” whose Patriarch is Bartholomew. So when you say that you attend a Divine Liturgy in the Russian Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome (yes, there is such a church!), you and I both know that this church is no longer an authentic “Russian Orthodox Church” if it reports to Rome.”

No, not at all. At one time ALL Russian churches considered themselves in union with Rome and did not feel threatened in their orthodoxy. Yes, that was before 1054, but it will happen again.

“If you and your church ultimately report to Pope Benedict in Rome, Vlad, then you are Roman Catholic, period.”

No, that just makes me Catholic. Period.

“Get over it and quit pretneding to be what you are not — “an objective observer”!”

I said I am more objective than you are. And I still am. I also clearly know history better than you. Deal with it.


116 posted on 06/25/2007 2:25:30 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Bokababe

Spot on!


117 posted on 06/25/2007 2:36:21 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: vladimir998

I’m not sure what all the facts are here, or who is more or less correct. BUT, anyone who thinks that a person in communion with Rome is a Roman Catholic and argues with you about is just plain wrong. To personally attack you on that, and to lead an attack against the Church on highly questionable grounds, makes me put less credibility in what they say.

That said, it’s a subject I intend to research a bit more.


118 posted on 06/25/2007 3:08:47 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: vladimir998

“I think you’re right, and yet it happens all the time in Germany too.”

With the world cup in Germany last year, it was sent out ahead of time to tourists; like the English in this case, don’t pull stuff like Goose Stepping, Fascist Salutes nor anything like that, because it can get you thrown in jail.

“Croatia is actually much more plugged into Europe than, say, Serbia. This certainly seems to be the case historically. Croatia has always had a lot of historical contacts with Italy, Germany, Austria, and so on.”

I’m not absolutely sure if this is solidly so, obviously Germany and Austria were there old allies; and of course, Italy is down in the Mediterannean too and there are other ties. I guess, Croatia is a relatively long nation; the eastern part suffered a heavy invasion in those past Balkans wars.

The concert was alarming, much of this other is off topic.


119 posted on 06/25/2007 5:37:28 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: vladimir998

The fact is I could care less about you or what you choose call your religious affiliation, Vlad — except that you refused to admit that Stepinac is considered “a Saint” in YOUR Church which answers to the Pope in Rome, commonly referred to as the Roman Catholic Church by non Roman Catholics. That’s it, period. Instead, you chose to take this off-topic into a game a narcissistic game of “Where’s Waldo?” about your religion, rather than answer a simple question directly and show that you have a vested interest in the outcome of the argument. This behavior is blatantly dishonest, and hardly a ringing endorsement for your own personal Faith — regardless of what you choose to call it.


120 posted on 06/25/2007 8:11:58 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: All

Really, to all; what a turnabout, a few years ago, an anti-Pope Pius XII book came out, now a new book that is not anti-Pope Pius XII released on May 30; and maybe already written about on Free Republic

http://www.amazon.com/Special-Mission-Hitlers-Secret-Vatican/dp/0306814684/ref=sr_1_2/102-4986972-8138507?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182828999&sr=8-2

Sounds a bit outrageous; and so many books come out on everything World War II; this new one is on a supposed plot to kidnap Pope Pius XII by the Nazis.

Review excerpt:

“Veteran popular historian Kurzman (The Bravest Battle) relates how a Hitler-Himmler order in 1943 to kidnap the pope and seize Vatican files and treasures was twice delayed and finally undermined by a group of high German officers and officials in Rome.”


121 posted on 06/25/2007 8:46:02 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: Bokababe

You wrote:

“The fact is I could care less about you or what you choose call your religious affiliation, Vlad — except that you refused to admit that Stepinac is considered “a Saint” in YOUR Church...”

You keep making these bizarre errors. Stepinac is considered a “Blessed”. Some may consider him a saint, but the Church has not canonized him yet so no one officially refers to him as a saint. I am surprised that you did not know this. What is worse is that I already pointed out that Stepinac was declared “Blessed” but said nothing about him having already been canonized because it hasn’t happened yet. Here you are arguing about Stepinac and you apparently know nothing of his status in the Church EVER AFTER BEING INFORMED OF IT. What does that tell us?

“... which answers to the Pope in Rome, commonly referred to as the Roman Catholic Church by non Roman Catholics.”

What some (not all) non-Catholics call the Catholic Church is irrelevant. The term “Roman Catholic” is a Protestant term. If you don’t believe me then look in the Oxford English Dictionary and you’ll see the term was invented by Anglican divines in the 16th century. I see no reason why I should use a Protestant term to refer to the Catholic Church.

“That’s it, period. Instead, you chose to take this off-topic into a game a narcissistic game of “Where’s Waldo?” about your religion, rather than answer a simple question directly and show that you have a vested interest in the outcome of the argument.”

What simple question? Show me the question in the original post.

Wait, I’ll do it for you because I don’t know if you can do it. Here’s the question I was asked in post #42: “Does this suggest that we should see additional Roman Catholic support for Croatian fascism or are you just acting alone?”

I answered with: “I am not “Roman Catholic.” I do not support fascism anywhere. And notice, I do not assume that, if you are Eastern Orthodox, that you automatically support any particular less than savory political movement in Eastern Europe. This concert is much ado about nothing. The over-reaction by several posters here does nothing but confirm that point.”

I answered your question directly. I was not asked if I was Catholic. It was assumed I was “Roman Catholic”. I corrected the assumption and then answered the incredibly leading and misleading question.

On the other hand, I made many points about Stepinac that NONE OF YOU POSTING AGAINST him have been able to answer or respond to in the least. One of you posted a forgery. I exposed it as a forgery. The reputed author denied the letter for decades. His family continues to this day to deny that he ever wrote it. Any response from you guys after it was shown to be a forgery? Nope. I post evidence – documented evidence. You guys post crap and try your hardest to pass it off as evidence.

That forgery was exposed in post #50. None of you ever touched or responded to that post. Not a single one of you. Yeah, you brave people. So, 71 posts later and no one on your side wants to admit that a forgery was being used. Lovely, just lovely.

“This behavior is blatantly dishonest, and hardly a ringing endorsement for your own personal Faith — regardless of what you choose to call it.”

My behavior has been above reproach. I have not been dishonest in any way. Again, look at the actual posts. I answered the questions. I was never asked if I was a Catholic. It was assumed I was a “Roman Catholic” – which I am not. I exposed a forgery for what it was and you guys all run for the hills and pretend not to notice it.


122 posted on 06/26/2007 4:11:25 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

Don’t you have some goose stepping to do Adolf?


123 posted on 06/26/2007 8:55:39 AM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: montyspython

You wrote:

“Don’t you have some goose stepping to do Adolf?”

Wow, what an amazing proof of your inability to debate on a mature and intelligent level.


124 posted on 06/26/2007 10:07:05 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: RGPII
“Croatia is actually much more plugged into Europe than, say, Serbia. This certainly seems to be the case historically. Croatia has always had a lot of historical contacts with Italy, Germany, Austria, and so on.”

He's obviously talking out of his arse. I find it hard to believe that someone so "knowledgeable" about Serbian history doesn't know that Serbia's ties to the West go back some 900 years (The Crusades, 1096) and that most Serbian queens/tsarinas/princesses from the Mediaeval times were foreign-born (a solid indication of the developing political, economic & military ties and alliances).

Serbia was one of the most advanced, developed and powerful kingdoms in Europe for some 200 years (cca. 1160-1390), especially in the latter part, during the Emperor Dushan's reign (1330-1355).

Since Croatia had spent the entire 2nd millennium as a vassal of various foreign powers, it goes without saying that the country was "plugged into Europe" (whatever "Europe" meant prior to the 1800s). I just don't see how this can be portrayed as Croatia's achievement.

125 posted on 06/26/2007 11:19:51 AM PDT by Banat (DEO + REGI + PATRIAE | In Hoc Signo Vinces)
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To: vladimir998
So, apparently the Croats aren’t the only ones with a problem.

In the past Croats glorified fascism, the Serbs stalinism and the Muslims imported islamofasist terrorists as soon as they had a chance. Kinda hard to to go with any of those choices.

126 posted on 06/26/2007 11:31:55 AM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: Banat

Banat, if you’re going to write in detail about what I said, you should probably ping me out of courtesy.

You wrote:

“He’s obviously talking out of his arse. I find it hard to believe that someone so “knowledgeable” about Serbian history doesn’t know that Serbia’s ties to the West go back some 900 years (The Crusades, 1096) and that most Serbian queens/tsarinas/princesses from the Mediaeval times were foreign-born (a solid indication of the developing political, economic & military ties and alliances).”

All true. And all irrelevant. I said Croatia was more plugged into Europe. I did not say Serbia had no relationship with Europe in 1096 or in “Mediaeval times”.

“Serbia was one of the most advanced, developed and powerful kingdoms in Europe for some 200 years (cca. 1160-1390), especially in the latter part, during the Emperor Dushan’s reign (1330-1355).”

Wonderful. Also irrelevant. Again, I never said Serbia didn’t have great medieval past. If you’re going to attack what I say (”He’s obviously talking out of his arse.”) then actually attck what I say rather than make up things I didn’t say. Is that too hard for you?

“Since Croatia had spent the entire 2nd millennium as a vassal of various foreign powers, it goes without saying that the country was “plugged into Europe” (whatever “Europe” meant prior to the 1800s). I just don’t see how this can be portrayed as Croatia’s achievement.”

I never portrayed that as Croatia’s achievement. I merely said it was the case and now you have admitted it. So, after all of your chest beating about the great, illustious and remote past greatness of Serbia, you admitted I was right anyway. If you knew I was right, and clearly you did, then why did you try to make it look like you were challenging what I said by throwing in a number of irrelevant points, distorting what I said and claiming I didn’t know what I was talking about?

Your own words confirmed you knew I was right: “...it goes without saying that the country was “plugged into Europe”..”

Thank you.


127 posted on 06/26/2007 11:41:35 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
"You keep making these bizarre errors. Stepinac is considered a “Blessed”"

You are right on that. I did slip up on that issues because I am so used to hearing Stepinac referred to as "The Patron Saint of Genocide".

"What some (not all) non-Catholics call the Catholic Church is irrelevant. The term “Roman Catholic” is a Protestant term."

I am an Orthodox Christian, not "a Protestant". (And from the Orthodox point of view, Roman Catholicism is actually "Protestantism") But every week when I say the Nicene Creed, I say, "I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" and it does not refer to your Church. I would have to be a Roman Catholic to call your Church, "The Catholic Church" and I am not. Nor will I be bulled into calling it such.

On the other hand, I made many points about Stepinac that NONE OF YOU POSTING AGAINST him have been able to answer or respond to in the least. One of you posted a forgery. I exposed it as a forgery....I exposed a forgery for what it was and you guys all run for the hills and pretend not to notice it."

Your one and only source of a "refutation" came from a Roman Catholic website, which has a vested interest in whitewashing Stepinac given that they have given him the status of "Blessed". Hardly a rock solid, "objective" source, which is why you hear "silence".

"At one time ALL Russian churches considered themselves in union with Rome and did not feel threatened in their orthodoxy. Yes, that was before 1054, but it will happen again.

Please DO hold your breath on that one, Vlad. Until or unless the Pope renounces the tile "Vicar (Substitute) of Christ", I don't know an Orthodox Christian alive who would be willing to join with Roman Catholic Church, independent of what our Church leaders do. And I don't expect that renunciation anytime soon!

This whole conversation is grossly "off-topic" and really belongs in the religious debate area. But, in closing, I will say that it is people like you, Vlad, who send a chill up my spine every time I think that some sort of reunion between our Churches might just happen.

128 posted on 06/26/2007 12:17:16 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

You wrote:

“You are right on that. I did slip up on that issues because I am so used to hearing Stepinac referred to as “The Patron Saint of Genocide”.”

Then maybe you should read history and not anti-Stepinac polemics who are clearly wrong.

“I am an Orthodox Christian, not “a Protestant”.”

Irrelevant. The term is Protestant. It doesn’t matter that you are Orthodox.

“(And from the Orthodox point of view, Roman Catholicism is actually “Protestantism”)”

That isn’t true and any Orthodox can tell you so. Many Eastern Orthodox believe Catholics have valid orders. How many Orthodox believe Presbyterians have valid orders? NONE. You don’t even know your own religion very well and yet you’re talling me about mine?

“But every week when I say the Nicene Creed, I say, “I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” and it does not refer to your Church.”

Yes, actually it does. The Catholic Church is the Catholic Church.

“I would have to be a Roman Catholic to call your Church, “The Catholic Church” and I am not.”

No, you would have to be Catholic to recognize the Catholic Church for what she is. You don’t have to be anything but discerning to call her the Catholic Church.

“Nor will I be bulled into calling it such.”

Bulled? Do you mean bullied? You’re still wrong in any case.

“Your one and only source of a “refutation” came from a Roman Catholic website, which has a vested interest in whitewashing Stepinac given that they have given him the status of “Blessed”. Hardly a rock solid, “objective” source, which is why you hear “silence”.”

It’s irrefutable evidence – as demonstrated by the fact that you can’t do it, won’t do it and are making excuses for why you run from it.

“Please DO hold your breath on that one, Vlad. Until or unless the Pope renounces the tile “Vicar (Substitute) of Christ”,…”

Vicar, Rocket Scientist, DOESN’T MEAN SUBSTITUTE in this context. Open up any reputable dictionary and you’ll see the word in that usage means agent or administrative deputy. Again, we see that you have no idea of what you’re talking about.

“I don’t know an Orthodox Christian alive who would be willing to join with Roman Catholic Church, independent of what our Church leaders do. And I don’t expect that renunciation anytime soon!”

Actually I know of several Orthodox Christians who have joined the Catholic Church. Maybe you need to know more people.

“This whole conversation is grossly “off-topic” and really belongs in the religious debate area. But, in closing, I will say that it is people like you, Vlad, who send a chill up my spine every time I think that some sort of reunion between our Churches might just happen.”

Yeah, gee, you wouldn’t want to have a reunion with a Church that actually teaches her members to get their facts straight (and they do so), not make outrageous claims about a saintly man (according to ALL the evidence) and not basically make oneself look silly. Yeah, how terrible. I have a much different view than you. I am more than willing to see a faithful reunion of the churches no matter what kind of fool you are. I say that because it is not about me or you, but about the whole people of God being united and faithful Him. You, on the other hand, apparently think the world revolves around you and your feelings (“chill up my spine”).


129 posted on 06/26/2007 1:35:06 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

But it’s true, you are defending Nazis, why?


130 posted on 06/26/2007 1:40:51 PM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: montyspython

You wrote:

“But it’s true, you are defending Nazis, why?”

I have never once defended Nazis. I never even defended the Ustashe.

Show me where I did. When you can’t do that, will you be man enough to admit it?


131 posted on 06/26/2007 1:57:21 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: CheyennePress

You hit the nail on the head.


132 posted on 06/26/2007 2:01:54 PM PDT by Sprite518
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To: vladimir998
Nazis are every where including the USA. However, they are pretty low numbers. Here is a video I found about it from ESPN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g&mode=related&search=

If I ma not mistaken though, then this even was held in Croatia. So I do not understand why you are going after the Serbs. Moreover, Croatia sided with the Nazis against Serbia in WWII. Croatia is now a breeding ground for radical Islam too. I know Bill Clinton bombed the Serbs, and they were accused of genocide. Nevertheless, I think Croatia was up to the same but never heard anything about it.

The way I understand it Serbia is primarily Christian, and Croatia is primarily Muslim. Then again I may be wrong.

133 posted on 06/26/2007 2:26:42 PM PDT by Sprite518
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To: Sprite518

You wrote:

“The way I understand it Serbia is primarily Christian, and Croatia is primarily Muslim. Then again I may be wrong.”

I think you’re confusing Bosnia with Croatia in regard to Muslims.


134 posted on 06/26/2007 2:34:16 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Sprite518

I saw on Discovery/History and right now, it is in the magazine “World War II” (or the similar magazine, “America in World War II”) on the newstand now, that America definitely had real Nazi sympathisers back in the 1930s.

Somewhere back east, NY or Pennsylvania; was like some sort of camp.

One searches for this on google and you get too many hits on all sorts of subjects, mostly left wing or wacked out skinhead stuff.

Oh, this link, http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/naziimages.htm with a picture from Chicago way back in 1931 does confirm this.


135 posted on 06/26/2007 9:49:03 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: vladimir998
Just shut the heck up!!

Stop trying to rationalise what your NAZI Croatian buddies do and the EVIL they ALL believe in!!

Over 60,000 young and old at the PRO-NAZI concert....YUK!

Wish somebody had dropped a STINK BOMB on the whole lot.

136 posted on 06/27/2007 1:43:37 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: vladimir998

Nobody is reading all that crap you cut and paste.


137 posted on 06/27/2007 1:51:49 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: vladimir998
Bokababe wrote:

"Personally, I don't care what your religion is. You could have argued honestly as a Roman Catholic, but instead you chose to lie about who and what you were -- unless you want to argue that the choice of your tagline from a Roman Catholic Saint from Dalmatia,was "pure coincidence" -- which is just too ridiculous for words."

"You've lied about something as obvious as this, then the rest of what you say has zero credibility to anyone other than your fellow propagandists and the "truly stupid"!

THIS BEARS REPEATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! and over and over....

GET LOST PUNK!

138 posted on 06/27/2007 2:01:50 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: Sprite518
Pay no attention to the "Croat" apologist here. He is a prime example of a lout who quotes a Saint, on his TAGLINE, about the Scriptures and then on this very web site, goes ahead and LIES about NOT being a Roman Catholic and a Croatian supporter.

It's all about about that "little" commandment, THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS... too.

The SS divisions formed by Croats, Muslims and Albanians in WWII murdered and helped to murder thousands of Serbs,Jews and Gyspies!! Croats were allied with muslims, in WWII and eventually in the civil war in Yugoslavia in the 1990s.

139 posted on 06/27/2007 2:19:55 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: Lion in Winter

You wrote:

“Just shut the heck up!!”

No. Since I have the right to speak and in fact am actually correct, I see no reason to grant your wish.

“Stop trying to rationalise what your NAZI Croatian buddies do and the EVIL they ALL believe in!!”

I neither tried to rationalize what the Croatians did, nor are they Nazis, nor are they my buddies.

“Over 60,000 young and old at the PRO-NAZI concert....YUK!”

Except it wasn’t a pro-Nazi concert. I know these little facts bother you, but there it is.

“Wish somebody had dropped a STINK BOMB on the whole lot.”

Are you 12? Maybe 13? Come back when you can grow facial hair.


140 posted on 06/27/2007 2:27:39 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Lion in Winter

You wrote:

“Nobody is reading all that crap you cut and paste.”

Nobody is refuting all of that irrefutable evidence I posted. Thanks for pointing out once again that it is beyond the capabilities of people like you.


141 posted on 06/27/2007 2:29:33 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Lion in Winter

You wrote:

“THIS BEARS REPEATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! and over and over....GET LOST PUNK!”

Thanks for once again proving that those who oppose historical fact here can do nothing but use personal attacks because they known they’ve lost the argument.


142 posted on 06/27/2007 2:31:50 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Bokababe
What I love to see is that over 1 thousand freepers saw this article and saw the very telling pictures, that you posted!!!

I doubt very seriously that any of them read all the crap cut and pasted and posted IN HUGE UNREADABLE CHUNKS by that faux American vladimeeeeeeer#0!!

HAHA!!

Those pictures of the croat nazi babe( with pota-potties in the background) and the politician with his family were OUTSTANDING in getting the TRUTH out about NEO-NAZIS in Croatia!!No wonder the Germans love them EVEN TODAY.

Way 2 go gal!!

You did good...

143 posted on 06/27/2007 2:34:02 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: vladimir998
YOU don't even OWN an argument punk!! You do NOT even know how to post with readable paragraphs!!

Get back to your "sweet little nazi" THOMPSON tapes and have a wet dream over your Nazi buddies!

144 posted on 06/27/2007 2:38:25 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: vladimir998
I was shaving before your Croatian pals had killed a single INNOCENT SERBIAN BABY at that WWII camp in Croatia that was reserved for little Serbian babies!!

This site is not for nazi apologists....like I said take a hike...YOU LOST!

145 posted on 06/27/2007 2:42:15 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: Lion in Winter

You wrote:

“YOU don’t even OWN an argument punk!! You do NOT even know how to post with readable paragraphs!!”

And your argument is what? Apparently you argument is...well...nothing.

“Get back to your “sweet little nazi” THOMPSON tapes and have a wet dream over your Nazi buddies!”

I have no Nazi buddies. But thanks for pointing out just how juvenile you are. Again, you are the kind of people opposing the reality of history here. Thanks.


146 posted on 06/27/2007 2:47:33 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Lion in Winter

You wrote:

“I was shaving before your Croatian pals had killed a single INNOCENT SERBIAN BABY at that WWII camp in Croatia that was reserved for little Serbian babies!!”

Ah, that explains it - you’ve entered your dotage.

“This site is not for nazi apologists....like I said take a hike...YOU LOST!”

I am not a Nazi apologist. That’s exactly why you can’t post a single thing from me where I ever defend the Nazis. You lost. And you know it.


147 posted on 06/27/2007 2:50:34 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

Go play( pee) in your sand box child... you will NEVER amount to a hill of beans.


148 posted on 06/27/2007 3:00:02 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (Hello again... for awhile...)
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To: Lion in Winter

You wrote:

“Go play( pee) in your sand box child... you will NEVER amount to a hill of beans.”

Clearly, if your posting is anything to go by, I’ve amounted to much more than you.


149 posted on 06/27/2007 3:03:11 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Lion in Winter

So good to hear the Lion roar again! It’s been a while!


150 posted on 06/27/2007 3:16:17 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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