Posted on 06/23/2007 11:07:39 AM PDT by Bokababe
Received this morning from Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Israel Director Efraim Zuroff (bold emphasis added): “Wiesenthal Center Expresses Outrage At Massive Outburst of Nostalgia for Croatian Fascism at Zagreb Rock Concert”:
Jerusalem – The Simon Wiesenthal Center today expressed its sense of outrage and disgust in the wake of a massive show of fascist salutes, symbols and uniforms at a rock concert by popular ultra-nationalist Croatian singer “Thompson” attended by 60,000 people in Zagreb last night. In a letter sent today to Croatian President Stjepan Mesic, the Center’s chief Nazi-hunter Israel director Dr. Efraim Zuroff noted the presence of Croatian dignities, including the Minister of Science, Education and Sports, at the event and called for the banning of concerts by singers like Thompson who glorify fascism and racism. According to Zuroff:
“According to the Croatian media, the concert turned into a massive fascist demonstration with tens of thousands of people shouting the infamous Ustasha salute of “Za dom spremni.” In addition,… numerous participants came wearing Ustasha uniforms and symbols. To make matters worse, in attendance last night were officials and members of Parliament, as well as the Minister of Science, Education [!!] and Sports.
“Under the current circumstances, I believe that the time has come to prohibit public concerts by those who write songs of nostalgia for Jasenovac and inspire the show of Ustasha symbols, which constitute open and blatant incitement against all the minorities in Croatia.”
(Excerpt) Read more at juliagorin.com ...
The Serbs overthrew their government on 03/28/1941 because it had chosen to side with Berlin. "Better grave than slave" and all...
8 days later, Belgrade would suffer the worst destruction in its modern history, courtesy of Luftwaffen. Meanwhile, Croatia showered the Nazis with flowers.
Hey, if I am lying, the pictures aren't...
April 6, 1941, Belgrade:
Zagreb, April 1941
You wrote:
“Right, we should take the word of Roman Catholic apologetics website on the “virtues” of Cardinal Stepinac vs. taking the Jewish/Israeli account? Right!”
Yes, since it is fully documented and irrefutable, you should. Also, plenty of Jews came forward in the 40s and 50s and 60s to defend Stepinac. Read them as well. See, I read all of this stuff. You however, are choosing to be unaware. That’s a mistake.
“And you are “not Roman Catholic”, but rather are a completely “objective third party observer”.”
Compared to you and others here, yes. I am not a Serb, I am not a Croat, I am not a Jew, nor am I a Communist. I am much more likely to be objective than many others.
“Wow! I must then be the Queen of England!”
My objectivity is not contingent upon your new found blue blood.
“Chill, Vlad. The vast majority of Croats are not goose-stepping Nazis, but Tudjman — the father of modern Croatia — WAS a goose-stepping Nazi.”
No, he was not a Nazi. Be serious. If you want to call him a fascist that’s one thing, but the Nazis were a specific group. He was never a member of that group, nor does he hold their beliefs, wear their uniform, etc. Let’s say he was. What has that got to do with anything we have discussed? Nothing. Were the founders of modern day Serbia really any less of fascists or communists or simple thugs (who also encouraged war crimes)? No.
“Now young Croatians are saddled with the legacy of a Neo-Nazi as “the father of their country & independence”, and just what are they supposed to do with that other than pretend he and his creepy swastika-loving compatriots (many of whom were their fathers) were “heroes”?”
No, they are not saddled with that legacy at all. They clearly do not consider it a burden, and I see no reason they should consider it a burden because there’s no truth to it. He’s not a Nazi. And many Croats look at a handful of people like Gotovina as heroes because they won the war and then defied the world. And all that you just said could easily be said, by the same token, about Serbia. A less than savory modern founder (convicted of war crimes), with lots of heroes (war criminals) who are idolized by some young people.
“We did them a terrible disservice by supporting Tudjman.”
No, Croatia seems to be doing well for itself. And our support wouldn’t necessarily have changed anything.
“And the Roman Catholic Church did them a terrible disservice by “sanctifying” a skin-crawling psychopath named Stepinac.”
No, the Church did a great thing by stepping forward in the Stepinac canonization process and he certainly deserved it and all contemporary records show him to be anything but “a skin-crawling psychopath.”
“And we wonder why the Balkans are so screwd up?”
It’s because of the people who live there. Not because of the Church. Not because of American support. Not because of Nazism. It’s the people who LIVE THERE.
Hear, hear! (BTW: you can drop the "H.")
You wrote:
“Right, so that was written in 1935. Correct? Hitler was also TIME’s Man of the Year. The cover of the 01/02/1939 issue says so.”
So what? Time magazine choose its Man of the Year based upon his importance, not his goodness.
“Erm, you know, after the Kristallnacht. So... what’s your point?”
My point was clear – yours is not. The fact that Kristallnacht had just happened would only increase Hitler’s chance of being Man of the Year, not decrease it. Again, the man chosen is chosen for his importance, his impact, not because he is viewed as good.
“The Serbs overthrew their government on 03/28/1941 because it had chosen to side with Berlin. “Better grave than slave” and all...”
Fascinating, but irrelevant here. It doesn’t matter why the Serbs overthrew their own government.
“8 days later, Belgrade would suffer the worst destruction in its modern history, courtesy of Luftwaffen. Meanwhile, Croatia showered the Nazis with flowers.Hey, if I am lying, the pictures aren’t...”
Of course the Croats welcomed their supposed liberators with flowers. Ukrainians did the same in their millions. The Lithuanians, Estonians and Latvians and Slovakians welcomed them too. Bulgaria and Hungary and Finland were the allies of Nazi Germany as well. The simple fact is that many peoples in Eastern Europe considered the Germans to be liberators at the beginning of the war. Since the Serbs were viewed as oppressors by many Croats, it doesn’t surprise me at all that the Nazi Germans were welcomed by them as liberators. What should make you pause for a moment is that the Croats were willing to choose the Germans over the Serbs. What had the Serbs done to make the Croats believe that was a wise choice?
The “reputed” author? You mean you’ve found someone who claims to have done it and his words support the effort to excuse Stepinac’s murderous forced conversion campaigns?
Hey, did you also see the one Dan Rather has on George W. Bush?
And with all that cutting and pasting, the Jews still refuse to add the Patron Saint of Genocide Stepinac’s name to their memorial in Jerusalem. Hmmmm.
These terrible Church papers, 1941 to 1945, should destroy forever our faith in those diplomatic prelates, often good and kindly men, who believe that at all costs the ecclesiastical fabric, its schools and rules, its ancient privileges and powers, should be preserved. The clerical editors published the Aryan laws, the accounts of the forced conversions, without protest, the endless photographs of Pavelitch’s visits to seminaries and convents, and the ecstatic speeches of welcome with which he was greeted. Turn, for example, to Katolicki Tjednik (The Catholic Weekly), Christmas 1941, and read the twenty-six verse ‘Ode to Pavelitch’, in which Archbishop Sharitch praises him for his measures against Serbs and Jews. Examine the Protestant papers and you will find the same story. Is it not clear that in times like those the Church doors should be shut, the Church newspapers closed down, and Christians, who believe that we should love our neighbours as ourselves, should go underground and try to build up a new faith in the catacombs?[ESCAPE FROM THE ANTHILL, p. 285]
Reference your post # 9.
I agree word for word.
Bill Clinton can claim credit for that.
You wrote:
“The “reputed” author?”
No, I meant what I said. If you can read, you can understand it. Thanks for proving my point by not having no evidence to refute what was actually posted.
You wrote:
“And with all that cutting and pasting, the Jews still refuse to add the Patron Saint of Genocide Stepinac’s name to their memorial in Jerusalem. Hmmmm.”
I’m not surprised that Israelis are reluctant to honor a man who saved Jews. This has happened before. Jews during and after World War II honored Pius XII for saving Jews. Now the Israelis and Jews elsewhere often refuse to do so. Even John Paul II, a man known for his kindness for, and respect of Jews, was at times given a rough welcome in Israel for things he never did. Rabbis called for curses on his head. For what? A man who was a friend to Jews and served the resistance in occupied Poland? If this is how many of the Jews of Israel treat a pope known for his love of Jews it doesn’t surprise me that Israel would snub a man who saved Jewish lives.
As can easily be found online:
Louis Breier, an American Jew, wrote: “This great man was tried as a collaborator of Nazism. We protest against this slander. He has always been a sincere friend of Jews, and was not hiding this even in times of cruel persecutions under the regime of Hitler and his followers. Alongside with Pope Pius XII, Archbishop Stepinac was the greatest protector of persecuted Jews in Europe.”
In an unpublished letter sent to editor in chief of the Jerusalem Post in July 29, 1995, reacting on the statement of Reuven Dafni, vicepresident of Yad Vashem, that “Stepinac did not do anything to save the Zagreb synagogue” (Jerusalem Post, July 26, 1995), Dr Amiel Shomrony wrote the following ([Stefan], p. 55-56):
Sir
please allow me through your column to inform your readers truthfully about “Croatia’s past stalks relations with Jews”, written by Mr. Jan Immanuel. In doing so I hope there is no need to stress that I have no personal interest whatsoever above stating what really happened during W.W.II in Croatia.
As former secretary of the Chief Rabbi of Zagreb Dr. Shalom Freiberger and his personal contact with Cardinal Stepinac I am in the position to point out various misinterpretations if not untruths in the above mentioned article of July 26th.
...The allegation that Archbishop Stepinac welcomed the Nazis is absolutely false; on the contrary, he publicly condemned the Nazis’ racial theories as antireligious even before the state of Croatia became “independent” in 1941.
...There are in Israel and the U.S. people who were hidden in 1941 by Stepinac in monasteries during the war. More than 50 elderly Jews were allowed to hide and live until the end of the war on his estate when they were brutally evicted from the old people’s home Lavoslav Schwarz. Also the Jewish community received money as well as sacs of flour on a monthly basis from the Archbishop for the inmates of the concentration camp Jasenovac.
...it is a fact that he condemned all laws against Jews, Pravoslavs, Moslems and Gypsis in his Sunday sermons in the cathedral house, “all of them are children of God”. Also in his sermons he specifically denounced the destruction of our Synagogue as “being a house of God”; “the perpetrators will be dully punished by almighty God”...
As to the danger to his life - we submitted relevant proofs to Yad Vashem, but the matters being sub judice, I shall refrain from mentioning them here...
Allow me only one more pertinent point: I am today one of the very few survivors from the Jewish community of Zagreb of W.W.II and being honorary member of “The cultural society Dr. Shalom Freiberger” I surely am a more reliable witness than people who base their opinions and “facts” one hearsay. http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html
Does it surprise me that Israeli Jews snub a man who saved some of their own people? No, not at all.
You posted:
“These terrible Church papers, 1941 to 1945, should destroy forever our faith in those diplomatic prelates, often good and kindly men, who believe that at all costs the ecclesiastical fabric, its schools and rules, its ancient privileges and powers, should be preserved. The clerical editors published the Aryan laws, the accounts of the forced conversions, without protest, the endless photographs of Pavelitch’s visits to seminaries and convents, and the ecstatic speeches of welcome with which he was greeted. Turn, for example, to Katolicki Tjednik (The Catholic Weekly), Christmas 1941, and read the twenty-six verse ‘Ode to Pavelitch’, in which Archbishop Sharitch praises him for his measures against Serbs and Jews. Examine the Protestant papers and you will find the same story. Is it not clear that in times like those the Church doors should be shut, the Church newspapers closed down, and Christians, who believe that we should love our neighbours as ourselves, should go underground and try to build up a new faith in the catacombs?[ESCAPE FROM THE ANTHILL, p. 285]”
Fascinating. But stupid. A NEW faith, as the author calls for in this snippet would not be the old faith and would not be orthodox. No, the Church leaders did the best they knew how during the war. Also, their newspapers were clearly not entirely controlled by them. Fascist states control the press, even the clerical press, not the clergy.
And, Stepinac railed against the censorship of Catholic Newspapers:
On 29th June 1942 Stepinac openly challenged the censors from his Cathedral pulpit:
“We cannot be Catholics in church, and in the streets attack like pagans the orders of the Vicar of Christ given for the purpose of public welfare because, perhaps they do not suit our personal taste. We cannot today because it suits us praise the Holy Father, and tomorrow in the newspapers cross out in red pencil his words and his sermons, given for the sole purpose of leading men to God”. ((RP 205)). http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/croatia(n)-4.htm
Typo!
“by not having ANY evidence to refute...”
Are you going to keep on apologizing or will you simply take your embarrassment and move on?
You wrote:
“Are you going to keep on apologizing or will you simply take your embarrassment and move on?”
I have suffered no embarrassment at all. Clearly others here have. I have no problem defending the truth even when others deny it. You are free to move on any time you like. No one is keeping you here.
The irony is that the Thompson submachinegun, in the hands of US soldiers, eliminated many Nazi types during WWII.
They have an inferiority complex and genocidal tendencies, not the Serbs.
I am sorry you can't understand why March 27, 1941, is a relevant date. I'm not going to bother drawing it for you...
Thanks, Sport.
But knowing this makes me very afraid for America, because we can't survive alone. If the Islamists and fascists take Europe, it won't be long before we start bending to them just to survive. And where will that leave "freedom of speech" and our "Constitutional rights"? Unless we do something soon, "in the toilet"!
We have a tremendous fight in front of us over the next few years -- and no real way to say, "I am too old for this crap" because we are the only ones who can do it.
You wrote:
“Don’t change the subject. We’re not talking about Serbia/Serbs and how the poor, oppressed Croats who were so down they decided to join the Nazis and commit genocide.”
What you are or are not talking about is irrelevant to me if I want to post about something, but I certainly wasn’t changing the subject. If someone wants to say that the Croats were Nazis (which isn’t the case anyway since the Nazis were almost entirely Western and Northern Europeans) it makes perfect sense to ask why they chose the Germans over the Serbs. You may not like the fact that they did so - and with good reason - but that doesn’t change the fact that they did so, and the reasons why they did so are important.
“They have an inferiority complex and genocidal tendencies, not the Serbs.”
No, many Serbs seem to have a superiority complex - Greater Serbia and all that. And we saw how that can lead to mass murder in the 1990s. It seems that many Serbs pine away for a Greater Serbia that will never be and have done so for decades: http://www.geocities.com/knin81995/VelikaSrbija.html
People with thwarted dreams have a tendency to make scapegoats of others.
“I am sorry you can’t understand why March 27, 1941, is a relevant date. I’m not going to bother drawing it for you...”
You’re probably not much of an artist. The war years are relevant, but a particular date drawn in contrast between the sadness of Serbs and the jubilation of Croats is meaningless. The simple fact is that both groups, by and large, looked at the Germans differently and for good reason. We, in the USA, looked at the Soviets as heroes in the Second World War, while many Ukrainians...not so much. That’s how it goes when you feel your under someone’s heel.
Why not? What are you trying to say? That you are unsurprised by "Jewish ingratitude"?
Do you know about the lawsuit against the Vatican Bank filed by the victims (and their families) of the WWII genocide of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies in the Independent State of Croatia?
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