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Would you be in favor of Amnesty if the borders were truly secure?
Free Republic | June 29, 2007 | Eric Blair

Posted on 06/30/2007 4:02:33 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084

The defeat of the amnesty bill is indeed a great day for America. The noble concept of a "Government by the people, for the people" has worked exactly the way our founding fathers intended. Our public serpents have heard the voice of their constituents and acted according to their wishes by defeating this train wreck of a bill.

In the absence of an actual intellectual argument, proponents of amnesty relied on the lowest common denominator of civil public discourse...when you have no facts to back you up, just call your opponent names like doodyhead, racist, bigot, redneck or nativist.

Apparently the elitist left wingers who were eager for new Democratic voters and the elitist Wall Street Journal right wingers who were frothing at the mouth at the idea of a cheap labor pool were shocked. They were used to having their way while the unwashed masses were busy paying attention to Paris Hilton, American Idol or Anna Nicole Smith.

Americans told them in no uncertain terms: We are not stupid. We are performing our civic duty by paying attention to our government. The message is so simple that even a retard can understand it...PROVE TO US THAT YOU CAN ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAWS BEFORE PASSING NEW LAWS THAT YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY ENFORCE.

They claimed that "we haven't read the bill and don't understand it. There are too many moving parts." No. We've read the bill. They haven't. Sure there were some good parts: ending chain migration, increasing the number of visas available for highly skilled employees.

This is certainly not over.

Speaking strictly for myself, I have nothing personally against people trying to come to America to better their lives. Besides the felony crime of breaking into a sovereign nation illegally, the only other "crime" many of these illegals have committed is mowing our lawn, landscaping our yard and picking our fruit. We don't hate anyone.

My parents were first generation LEGAL immigrants. Many of your parents, grandparents and great grandparents came here for the same reason.

We all understand that. What people like Bob Menendez and Mel Martinez don't understand is that when people came here at the turn of the last century there was no welfare state. Come one, come all. If you fail, don't look to the Gubmint to bail you out and provide social services at the taxpayers expense. We are in a different world.

So I am curious and our elected public serpents who were shocked by the outcry from their constituents are too. President Bush is a "lame duck" supposedly. He certainly won't accomplish any new legislative initiatives. However, he still has the power as President to see to it that existing laws are enforced. That means build the fence that was authorized and funded in October of 2006.

Then come back to us and talk about Comprehensive Immigration Reform. If the border were truly secure, would you be in favor of a similar bill?


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; illegalimmigration; illegals; immigrantlist; immigration; immigrationlist; marines; noamnestyforillegals; vampirebill
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1 posted on 06/30/2007 4:02:34 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No. We need law abiding citizens in this country. We need countries that strive to better themselves on our borders.


2 posted on 06/30/2007 4:05:12 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heros have always been cowboys--Reagan and Bush)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Secure the border. Blanket amnesty is foolish.


3 posted on 06/30/2007 4:05:53 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: Eric Blair 2084
No Amnesty for people who broke into our country.Whether the Border enforcement is improved or not.

These people have to learn that their time here has ended.

Legal Immigration on the other hand I'm all for.

4 posted on 06/30/2007 4:07:27 PM PDT by puppypusher (The world is going to the dogs.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No.


5 posted on 06/30/2007 4:07:32 PM PDT by Cindy
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Not just no, but hell no.


6 posted on 06/30/2007 4:09:03 PM PDT by Rider on the Rain
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No amnesty for illegal businesses!


7 posted on 06/30/2007 4:09:51 PM PDT by Rudder
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To: Eric Blair 2084
I have no problem with folks who follow the laws coming here. The problem is, most of them won't.

Send 'em home. Build a wall to keep 'em out. If they want in, tell 'em to get in line.

8 posted on 06/30/2007 4:10:20 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No. Cut off the welfare, fine the cr*p out of the employers, and deport anyone who crosses the path of law enforcement at any level.


9 posted on 06/30/2007 4:10:47 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Have some hyperbolic rodomontade, and nothing worse will happen for the rest of the day!)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Hell no. Even more, I’d round up the illegals, their families, dogs, cats, chickens and goats, drug them and plant RFI chips and GPS locators subcutaneously in all of them and deport them in handcuffs and chains or throw them all in prison and make them work to pay back all that they’ve cost us and taken in jobs.

There’s more that I would do too, but that’s a longer discussion.


10 posted on 06/30/2007 4:11:32 PM PDT by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now courtesy of Islam.)
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To: puppypusher
No Amnesty for people who broke into our country.Whether the Border enforcement is improved or not.

How about this: They can never be legal voting citizens, but if the border fence is built in it's entirety, they can be legal permanent residents or at least guest workers?

11 posted on 06/30/2007 4:11:59 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

I agree with post #9. NO! and stop anchor babies.


12 posted on 06/30/2007 4:12:22 PM PDT by mathluv (Never Forget!)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No. I still say build a concentration camp or two for illegal aliens, the rest will get themselves out of the country ASAP and then we seal the borders and enforce our laws. Simple. ;^)


13 posted on 06/30/2007 4:13:01 PM PDT by tioga (Fred Thompson for President.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No! The current crop of illegals can’t even be made legal by going home.

Reverse the flow, clean out the stable and bring in a true crop of thoroughbred stallions (maybe better make that geldings).


14 posted on 06/30/2007 4:13:29 PM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
They can never be legal voting citizens, but if the border fence is built in it's entirety, they can be legal permanent residents or at least guest workers?

No. Illegal is "illegal." Go back to start.

BTW, we all know that "securing the border" is a myth. Even the Iron Curtain couldn't secure a border, and they were trying a lot harder than we ever would.

15 posted on 06/30/2007 4:13:39 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Have some hyperbolic rodomontade, and nothing worse will happen for the rest of the day!)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Nah!


16 posted on 06/30/2007 4:13:43 PM PDT by gunnyg
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To: Rider on the Rain
Not just no, but hell no.

Even if the entire double sided border fence were actually built as authorized?

17 posted on 06/30/2007 4:14:01 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

I would be in favor of something along these lines ... once the borders are proved secure, the flow of under wage no tax workers stopped ...

then offer a 90 day period for all illegal aliens to appear and get a temporary secure ID permit to stay, pending a background and health check.

At the end of 90 days everyone who did not show, when caught would be deported, no excuses.

Once the background check etc clears, then grant a 2-3 year work permit. If they had overstayed their visa, out they go. Flunk the background check, deport.

NO path to citizenship, the citizenship line forms where the line is.

Work permits are renewable 3 times or so, then they must go home. There are other existing ways to stay, green cards still work fine, and other forms of visas exist.

This would return the borders to some sibilance of regular order instead of chaos.

So I guess that puts me into no AMNESTY, but working is OK, which we are told is all the illegals want in the first place ...Right?


18 posted on 06/30/2007 4:14:15 PM PDT by Tarpon
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To: Eric Blair 2084

I think that most of these “no, hell no” responses might have been different, had the government secured the borders and THEN brought up amnesty.

I think this whole thing just left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. I know it did mine.


19 posted on 06/30/2007 4:14:16 PM PDT by Laptop_Ron
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To: Eric Blair 2084

They’ll be voting and on welfare inside a year.


20 posted on 06/30/2007 4:14:26 PM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: yldstrk

“No. We need law abiding citizens in this country. We need countries that strive to better themselves on our borders.”

I agree. There was a story out today about an illegal family who had been here 10 years. They did not speak English, and through the reporter talked about being afraid they will be deported. Well, I’d say it is time to go home where people speak your language or it is time to get in line with the immigrants who follow our laws! And while you are working on citizenship, learn to speak English to become an American! No Amnesty!


21 posted on 06/30/2007 4:14:53 PM PDT by seekthetruth
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To: mathluv
NO! and stop anchor babies.

Good point! Children of tourists aren't citizens, and no more should children of illegals be.

22 posted on 06/30/2007 4:15:16 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Have some hyperbolic rodomontade, and nothing worse will happen for the rest of the day!)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

I’ll bet you got that dammed Elmo doll for Christmas after all, didn’t you?


23 posted on 06/30/2007 4:15:42 PM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

NO!!!


24 posted on 06/30/2007 4:16:03 PM PDT by LadyPilgrim ((Jesus is real, He will never fail...I will serve him now, and throughout all eternity! ))
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Sure. Why not?

It’s not about making things difficult for brown people.

If the border really, truly were made secure, sure. Fire up the citizenships. We’re missing about 20 million Americans from liberal abortion policies. Let them stay.

But no “chain migration”.

That’s it. Once the fence is up, applicants get here the same way everyone else does.

Apply, and wait to be approved.


25 posted on 06/30/2007 4:16:13 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (D is for Defeatism. R is for Reconquista.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No.


26 posted on 06/30/2007 4:16:13 PM PDT by Clara Lou (Fred Thompson, '08-- imwithfred.com. Please note: Hillary is a hag.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
Would you be in favor of Amnesty if the borders were truly secure?

There is no such thing as truly secure borders. If the illegals are safe once they are X miles from the border, then they will come. If the only penalty for trying is they get put back to try again, then they will try until they succeed

The only solution is sanctions against any employer that hires them, and any local govt that issues them benefits

27 posted on 06/30/2007 4:16:15 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Open Season rocks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with our current immigration system except that it is cumbersome and slow.

As to what to do with people who are out of compliance, I personally would propose that those people who are not in compliance should be graded accorded to their degree of non-compliance:

  1. Simple borderjumpers here for more than 5 years should be forbidden from ever having a normal visa of any type. We don't need people who are that contemptuous of our laws.
  2. Simple borderjumpers here for less than 5 years should have to return to their country and apply for a normal visa, and wait in line to come here just like everyone else around the world.
  3. People who have or had a normal visa but are out of technical compliance for some reason should be given an opportunity to straighten that out. Our laws are complex, and people who have made an honest effort to comply are the ones that we should encourage to stay here.

28 posted on 06/30/2007 4:16:58 PM PDT by snowsislander
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To: Eric Blair 2084
Does America need more uneducated, poverty stricken, non-english speakers who hold our laws in apparent contempt?

Like a blessed thistle in the shorts...

29 posted on 06/30/2007 4:17:01 PM PDT by skeeter
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To: Eric Blair 2084
No.

I would be in favor of granting extensions and expedited hearings to legal immigrants who were stonewalled by the bureaucrats at the INS (now ICE).
Never another amnesty for the blatant illegals who willfully intended to sneak their way into this country, and who have been stealing from us all ever since.

30 posted on 06/30/2007 4:17:14 PM PDT by sarasmom (I was called a racist, bigot, xenophobe, immigrant-hater.But I am not called a liar or communist.)
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To: Tax-chick
Even the Iron Curtain couldn't secure a border, and they were trying a lot harder than we ever would.

It was "secure". They just shot anyone who tried to jump over the Berlin Wall and escape from the Socialist Utopia. This is a question for a different thread but golly gee willikers, if Socialism is so great why do people get on a raft or grab a pogo stick to try to escape it?

Somebody should explain that to the Socialist left wing liberal Democrats.

31 posted on 06/30/2007 4:17:18 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: Old Professer
They’ll be voting and on welfare inside a year.

And the anchor babies are already in the oven...

32 posted on 06/30/2007 4:17:28 PM PDT by ErnBatavia (...forward this to your 10 very best friends....)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
Would you be in favor of Amnesty if the borders were truly secure?

No.

33 posted on 06/30/2007 4:18:04 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No Amnesty for people who broke into our country.Whether the Border enforcement is improved or not.
How about this: They can never be legal voting citizens, but if the border fence is built in it’s entirety, they can be legal permanent residents or at least guest workers?

The problem is that if they stay in our country or judicial system and politicians will see to it that the aliens will have the same or more rights than American citizens and that should be a “Non Starter” as one of the President’s Bush used to say.


34 posted on 06/30/2007 4:18:06 PM PDT by puppypusher (The world is going to the dogs.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No


35 posted on 06/30/2007 4:18:20 PM PDT by HitmanLV ("Lord, give me chastity and temperance, but not now." - St. Augustine)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
Would you be in favor of Amnesty if the borders were truly secure?

Nope. Close the borders and couple that with an attrition strategy. An amnesty for 20 to 30 million illegal aliens would be a national disaster. It'll be a lot easier to sell a true, limited agriculture guest worker program once the government proves itself on this issue.

36 posted on 06/30/2007 4:20:52 PM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Eric Blair 2084
Besides the felony crime of breaking into a sovereign nation illegally,

First offense crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor. Staying here is a felony.

37 posted on 06/30/2007 4:20:57 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Ummm. No.

The borders will NEVER be truly secure until illegal aliens face more pain by staying here than they do by leaving.


38 posted on 06/30/2007 4:21:05 PM PDT by Maceman
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To: mathluv

The anchor babies/birthright citizenship has to stop. I agree.

If I have to read another story in the newspaper about how Consuela the illegal immigrant who just gave birth to little Julio (which cost taxpayers $16,500 in maternity cost at our local hospital) is so happy that Julio won’t have to “worry about his papers”, I think I’ll f’ing puke.

Nothing personal. I love Consuela and Julio and wish them all the best. But geez louise.


39 posted on 06/30/2007 4:21:17 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Mowing the lawns and picking lettuce is what the pro amnesty crowd always talks about. What about the number of illegals in our prison system? What about the gangs of illegals that are endangering US citizens in a number of out larger cities? These crack whores ain’t interested in talking about them !!!


40 posted on 06/30/2007 4:21:33 PM PDT by Obie Wan (If)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
All the people who broke the law to get here should be sent home. And for all those people who fear it's "racism", let an equal number of Mexicans in - five years down the road - - pick those who put their names on the list and played by the rules. Those who chose to sneak into our country should be banned.
41 posted on 06/30/2007 4:21:48 PM PDT by GOPJ (The aggressor is always peace-loving;he would prefer to take over...unopposed.-Karl von Clauswitz)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

No. I’d be happy to expand *legal* immigration, letting in the people who respected our laws and went through the proper channels to gain entry to the U.S. But in my perfect world, illegals would NEVER be allowed legal status here unless they went back home before being caught, and applied through legal channels.


42 posted on 06/30/2007 4:22:31 PM PDT by Sloth (The GOP is to DemonRats in politics as Michael Jackson is to Jeffrey Dahmer in babysitting.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084; 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; ...
If the border were truly secure, would you be in favor of a similar bill?

That question is a little ambiguous, Eric. The senate bill was a POS from the beginning. So no, I'd never be in favor of a bill similar to that.

Now, once the wall has been built and the border is reasonable secure, would I be in favor of a bill that addressed the needs of business? Yes, I would.

It needs to offer temporary work visas (TWV) matched to demonstrated needs. These cannot be visas that lead to citizenship. There are other visas already in place for that, those can stay in place.

To get a TWV, you need to apply from your home country, and wait for approval. Once you receive your TWV, you are to enter this country through a legal port of entry; not through the back door. You may not bring family members into this country while on a TWV. The term of a TWV should be no more than two years.

When your TWV expires, go home and apply for another. Or, let's be generous, allow TWV holders to apply for a second term once from the US. At the end of that term, if they've kept their noses clean, let them apply for a permanent work visa. The PWV provides a path to citezenship. If denied, they go home. And they don't get a notice to appear at a deportation hearing - they are sent home.

Now, this is going to take a lot of effort, resources, manpower, oversight, integrity, etc. Some folks will tell you it's too expensive to do this. When the current crop of illegals bankrupts Social Security, we'll need to remind those fools about their short-sightedness.

FWIW - that's the kind of reform I'd accept.

43 posted on 06/30/2007 4:22:31 PM PDT by HiJinx (Ask me about Troop Support...)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Once the boarder is secure with a wall:

1. Must be able to speak and read english.
2. Must provide your own healthcare.
3. Must not have a criminal background.


44 posted on 06/30/2007 4:22:58 PM PDT by FightThePower! (Fight the powers that be!)
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To: HitmanLV
No

They don't call you the best orator on FR for no reason baby! :-)

45 posted on 06/30/2007 4:23:07 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
I have been to Mexico a number of times, and not just the resort cities. I am always impressed how diligently the average Mexican works, even those out on the street flogging Candy etc. I have no doubts that many Mexicans would/will be a good addition to the country on balance.

However, To have such a huge population predominantly from one country (Mexico) and for them to come so quickly, I believe I am beginning to see a Balkanization of America and THAT is a problem. You see it in the media right now in most parts of the country.

Having so many economically driven refugees from an adjoining country whose primary reason for coming is not to be part of America and enthusiastically adopt the mantle of “American”, it is to earn more money and stay Mexican at heart. This is a huge problem and one that most Americans intrinsically understand, even if it is seldom if ever discussed. (That would be insensitive and racist, naturally)

I had a good friend from Mexico when I went to college in the early 80’s. One night we were out at a local bar on the strip and after many drinks we got to talking about his home country. He said something that stayed with me until today: “Texas and California were stolen from us and that is why Mexico is in such bad economic shape. Take Texas and California, and what have you got left?” I was stunned and asked if he was serious, and he said yes. Then I said “what you have left is Mexico, I guess”.

We never spoke again after that evening.

46 posted on 06/30/2007 4:23:17 PM PDT by Carbonado ("Islame-ic radical" is a redundant term, just like "Leftist journalist")
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To: Eric Blair 2084

NO, absolutely not. Why? Check my profile and you’ll understand why...and it has nothing to do with the southern border.


47 posted on 06/30/2007 4:23:25 PM PDT by EBH (May God Save Our Country)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
Its hypothetical to consider since our borders aren't secure but if they were, I would still be opposed to amnesty. If you or I deliberately broke the law, we wouldn't be forgiven. So its not fair to forgive people who've deliberately broken the law. It makes a mockery of both fairness and justice.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

48 posted on 06/30/2007 4:24:48 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

It’s simple, but it says it.


49 posted on 06/30/2007 4:24:51 PM PDT by HitmanLV ("Lord, give me chastity and temperance, but not now." - St. Augustine)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
they can be legal permanent residents or at least guest workers?

Nope. That's what touch-back was all about. That's a rock-hard requirement.

50 posted on 06/30/2007 4:25:02 PM PDT by HiJinx (Ask me about Troop Support...)
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