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(RON PAUL opposes) Administration Plan to Subsidize China’s Nuclear Industry
Human Events ^ | 06/06/2007 | Timothy Carney

Posted on 07/22/2007 2:02:07 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian

Administration Poised to Subsidize China’s Nuclear Industry
by Timothy P. Carney

A Japanese-owned company is building nuclear power plants for Communist China, and the Bush administration is ready to use U.S. taxpayer dollars to subsidize the deal to the tune of $5 billion. Although China’s government-owned nuclear industry has a long record of illegal nuclear deals with Iran and Pakistan, administration officials say the technology is not transferable to nuclear weapons, and that the subsidy will create 5,000 jobs in Pennsylvania.

The Export-Import Bank of the United States (Ex-Im) is a federal agency that subsidizes U.S. exports by lending taxpayer money to foreign buyers (such as the Chinese government), or guaranteeing private loans, so that the foreign buyer can purchase U.S. goods.

Westinghouse Electric is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Japanese company Toshiba. Westinghouse manufactures the AP 1000 -- a new model of nuclear power generator -- in Monroeville, Pa.

In February 2005, Ex-Im’s board of directors granted preliminary approval for a $5 billion subsidy -- an unspecified combination of loans and guarantees -- to the China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC) as a way of aiding Westinghouse’s bid for the contract (a French company and a Russian company were also competing for the contract.)

This year, the Chinese government awarded the contract to Westinghouse, bringing the record subsidy closer to reality, although the preliminary approval does not guarantee Ex-Im will provide financing. A Westinghouse spokesman told HUMAN EVENTS the company was in the process of applying for Ex-Im financing. Ex-Im spokesman Phil Cogan told HUMAN EVENTS that while a preliminary commitment is by no means a promise by Ex-Im, it indicates that “this is the kind of thing” Ex-Im would subsidize.

Congressional critics from both ends of the spectrum, including Senator Bernie Sanders (I.-Vt.) and Republican Representatives Ron Paul (Tex.), Jeff Fortenberry (Neb.), and Ed Royce (Calif.), have resisted this deal.

For the critics, the deal is problematic on at least three fronts. First, China’s state-owned nuclear industry has a long history of illegal nuclear weapons proliferation, and this subsidy enriches that very industry. Second, some of the jobs generated by this record subsidy deal will not be in the U.S. Finally, aiding China’s nuclear power industry could boost its military capabilities including its nuclear submarine programs.

Rewarding Proliferators

The CNNC is the branch of the Chinese government that manages both nuclear weapons and nuclear power. In recent months, CNNC and other state agencies founded the State Nuclear Power Technology Company (SNPTC). SNPTC, entirely owned by the Chinese government, is now the official purchaser of the nuclear reactors from Westinghouse.

CNNC is a known serial proliferator of nuclear weapons materials. In the late 1990s, U.S. intelligence agencies found that the CNNC had sold 5,000 ring magnets to Pakistan’s A.Q. Khan Research Laboratory. Later, the CIA found that the CNNC sold Pakistan high-temperature furnaces. Both the furnaces and the ring magnets are crucial tools used in enriching uranium to produce fissionable -- i.e., weapons grade -- uranium. Shortly after these sales, Pakistan tested its first nuclear weapon.

In 2004, A.Q. Khan, the Pakistani scientist on the buying end of the CNNC’s sales, was arrested for selling centrifuge materials to Libya. Khan is also known to have aided the nuclear weapons programs of North Korea and Iran. CNNC has, on at least two occasions, had dealings with Iran’s nuclear weapons program, but it is not clear if China has ever actually executed a sale of nuclear weapons materials to Iran.

American Jobs?

Westinghouse and Ex-Im officials have defended this subsidy by pointing out that without it, China would still build the nuclear power plants, but in collaboration with the Russians or the French. By greasing the skids for the Westinghouse contract with its preliminary commitment in 2005, Ex-Im has helped make work for 5,000 manufacturing workers in Monroeville, Pa. In April, however, Westinghouse announced that portions of the power plants would be built in South Korea and other parts in China. Ex-Im cannot finance an export unless most of the goods are made in the U.S.

Westinghouse and the Bush administration point out, however, that if these cutting-edge reactors do well in China, it would spur domestic and world-wide business for Westinghouse, making more jobs in Pennsylvania.

Helping China’s Military?

In late May, Representatives Christopher Smith (R.-N.J.), Diane Watson (D.-Calif.), Fortenberry, and Royce, asked Secretary of Defense Robert Gates in a letter whether the sale could boost China’s military capabilities.

Henry Sokolski, executive director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center said that there are reasons to worry about providing China with this technology. “You’re building an infrastructure that can be used and retooled to help out in [China’s] naval reactor sector -- and they do want this for nuclear subs,” the Christian Science Monitor quoted Sokolski.

Last year, during the debate on reauthorizing Ex-Im, the House passed by a 331-to-114 vote an amendment by Representatives Paul and Sanders that would have blocked a subsidy for this deal. The measure, however, was not in the final bill.

As of Tuesday morning, Ex-Im had not yet received an application from Westinghouse or any of its partners with regard to the sale. Sanders, Paul, or Fortenberry will likely act once Ex-Im receives the application, and possibly hold hearings on the deal, which would be the largest subsidy in Ex-Im history.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: china; energy; geopolitics; trade
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To: elhombrelibre; OrthodoxPresbyterian
You can bash Bush all you want, but he’s one thing Ron Paul will never be: President of the United States of America.

Your kneepad's are showing, no shame. Your problem isn't with Dr. Paul at all. This attack would have been warranted should this had been(enter your favorite target here), at least in your eyes. Blackbird.

101 posted on 07/22/2007 4:06:34 PM PDT by BlackbirdSST (I'm dug in, giving no more ground to the rino stampede. BB)
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To: JoinJuniorAchievement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK8n3OE_LFA&mode=related&search=


102 posted on 07/22/2007 4:07:04 PM PDT by JoinJuniorAchievement (“ I am a Veteran, I support Ron Paul.")
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To: vbmoneyspender

Sorry Ron, but I could never support the closing of the Gitmo detention facilities at this time. I see no purpose in continuing listening to you and your positions any further.


103 posted on 07/22/2007 4:07:40 PM PDT by gitmogrunt (8 years of Clinton ,8 years of Bush leaves me in a country I don't recognize anymore)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Sanders, Paul, or Fortenberry will likely act once Ex-Im receives the application, and possibly hold hearings on the deal, which would be the largest subsidy in Ex-Im history.

The U.S. subsidizing Red China's acquisition of advanced nuclear technology is an astonishingly silly waste of taxpayer money. We have to borrow money every year to run our government as it is; thinking part of that money that is borrowed is going to the PRC acquiring more nuclear technology is bad enough, but when you consider that Red China is currently lending money to our government, that really takes the cake.

We will be paying the Red Chinese to take the reactors; the money that we are using to pay is borrowed in part from Red China; and we are going to pay interest on that money forever!

Red China has plenty enough dollars to finance this technology. My goodness, they are trying out to figure out how to invest the $1.2 trillion that they have sitting around presently, and have used a small fraction of that to buy into the Blackstone Group (a Carlyle enterprise, by the by; I have left an accompanying Japanese translation in):


China to invest in U.S. private equity group
(中国、米プライベート・エクイティ・グループに投資)
by Andrew Ross Sorkin and David Barboza
IH:May 20, 2007

NEW YORK: The Chinese government said Sunday that it would acquire a $3 billion stake in Blackstone Group, the private equity firm, in the first effort by Beijing to diversify its $1.2 trillion in foreign exchange reserves beyond U.S. Treasury bills and into commercial enterprise.

アメリカ短期国債以外に、そして営利事業に、$1.2兆に上る外貨準備を多様化する為の、中国政府による初めての努力の中、中国政府は日曜日、プライベート・エクイティ会社のブラックストーン・グループ株、$30億相当を取得すると語った。

The deal, set to coincide with Blackstone's $4 billion initial public offering this year, will give China a roughly 8 percent stake in Blackstone, which owns companies with 375,000 employees and $83 billion in annual sales.

ブラックストーンが今年予定している$40億相当のIPOと同時に行われるこの取引は、従業員375,000人、年間売り上げ$830億の企業を所有するブラックストーンの株式約8%を、中国に与える事になる。

It would also represent a watershed for the booming private equity industry as it attempts to gain a foothold in China.

また、成長著しいプライベート・エクイティ産業が中国に足場を得ようとする中で、それらの企業にとって重大な転機を現す事になるだろう。

"It's a historic change," Stephen Schwarzman, co-founder of Blackstone, said during an interview. "It's a paradigm shift in global capital flows."

「歴史的変化だ」 とブラックストーンの共同創立者スティーヴン・シュワルツマンがインタビューの中で言った。 「グローバル・キャピタル・フローのパラダイム・シフトだ」。

He called the Chinese government's decision "huge" and even "surprising."

彼は中国政府の決断を「非常に巨大」、そして「驚き」とすら呼んだ。

China has been grappling with how to invest its foreign reserves more aggressively. In March, China said that it would set up a special investment vehicle - the State Foreign Exchange Investment Company - to handle a portion of those reserves, which are now held by the central bank, in the hopes of earning a higher return for the country.

中国はより積極的な外貨準備投資方法に取り組んできた。 中国は3月、国家の為により高い利回りを稼いでくれる事を願って、現在は中央銀行が保有している外貨準備の一部を取り扱うべく、特別投資手段(国家外貨投資公司、SFEIC)を設立する、と述べた。

The agency is not yet operating, but the Blackstone deal suggests that the Chinese government is eager to put its vast reserves to work outside of China. Still, as Blackstone begins to invest in emerging markets like China, the deal offers the prospect that at least some of the money could find its way back to China. Indeed, Blackstone is planning to open offices in Hong Kong and Beijing this year.

この期間は未だ稼動していないが、ブラックストーンとの合意は、中国政府は莫大な外貨準備に中国国外で稼がせたがっている事を示唆している。 しかし、ブラックストーンが中国のような新興市場で投資を開始する中、この取り決めは、少なくともこの資金の一部は中国へ還流出来る、という可能性を提供している。 確かに、ブラックストーンは今年、香港と北京事務所の開設を計画している。

For years, China has invested in foreign currency, particularly U.S. Treasury bonds, which have earned a safe but modest return. But now, with the dollar in decline and the Chinese government willing to take on more risk to earn higher returns, the new agency is being modeled, in part, on Temasek Holdings, the state-owned investment vehicle in Singapore, which has invested billions of dollars around the world, particularly in China.

何年もの間中国は、手堅いながらも大した利回りも稼いでいない、外貨、特にアメリカ財務省債権に投資してきた。 だが現在、ドルは下がり、中国政府は高リターンの為に高リスクを取る事に前向きになる中、世界中で、特に中国で数十億ドルを投資してきた、シンガポールの国営投資機関テマセク・ホールディングスを、新しい機関は一部手本とした。

A similar investment agency in China would effectively create the world's largest hedge fund. Some analysts say that the China fund's investment of billions of dollars in the global financial markets could push global asset prices higher, affecting U.S. and European stocks, bonds and interest rates, as well as the value of energy and natural resources in Africa and the Middle East.

中国の同様の投資機関は、事実上世界最大のヘッジファンドを作り出すだろう。 一部のアナリスト達は、中国ファンド数十億ドルが国際金融市場で投資されれば、アフリカと中東のエネルギーおよび天然資源の価値と同じく、アメリカとヨーロッパの株式、債権、そして金利に影響し、国際資産価格を押し上げるだろう、と言っている。

Meanwhile, the Blackstone Group, which is based in New York, has been moving aggressively in recent months to find investments in China. Blackstone is trying to catch up to the Carlyle Group, which has a large operation in China.

一方、ブラックストーン・グループは、この数ヶ月間、中国で投資を発見すべく積極的に動き回っている。 ブラックストーンは中国で大規模なオペレーションを敷いている、カーライル・グループに追いつこうとしているのだ。

In January, Blackstone hired Anthony Leung, the former Hong Kong financial secretary, to run its business in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. And last month, Reuters reported that Blackstone was seeking to acquire a stake in the Guofeng Group, one of the largest Chinese makers of plastic products.

1月、ブラックストーンは中国、香港、台湾でのビジネス運営用に、Anthony Leung元香港財務長官を採用した。 そして先月、ブラックストーンは、中国最大のプラスティック・メーカーの一つであるGuofengグループの株式を取得しようとしている、とロイター通信が伝えた。

Under the terms of the Chinese government investment in Blackstone, it will buy nonvoting shares as part of the firm's initial public offering at 95.5 percent of the public-offering price. It has agreed to keep its stake for at least four years.

ブラックストーンへの中国政府の投資条件の下、同社の公募価格の95.5%で、IPOの一部として無議決権株を購入する。 この株式は少なくとも4年間保有する事で合意された。

China may reduce its stake after the public offering so that it holds fewer than 10 percent of Blackstone shares. The public offering is expected to value Blackstone at as much as $40 billion.

ブラックストーン株を10%以下に出来るので、公募の後株式を中国は減らすかもしれない。 公募はブラックストーンに最大で$400億の価格をつけると予想されている。

While the investment may presage further Chinese investment in private equity firms in the future, China has promised not to invest in a competing private equity firm for a year.

この投資は中国が将来更にプライベート・エクイティ会社に投資する事の前兆となるかもしれないが、その一方で、競合プライベート・エクイティ会社には1年間投資しない、と中国は約束している。

Blackstone - which has led multibillion-dollar buyouts of Equity Office Properties, Freescale Semiconductor and Michaels Stores - manages a $15.6 billion buyout fund. In its prospectus, it reported $2.3 billion in profit in 2006.

Equity Office Properties、Freescale Semiconductor、そしてMichaels Storesの、数十億ドル規模の乗っ取りを率いたブラックストーンは、$156億相当の乗っ取りファンドを管理している。 目論見書によれば、2006年の利益は$23億との事。



104 posted on 07/22/2007 4:13:29 PM PDT by snowsislander
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; JTN; Paperdoll
I was so busy elsewhere, I almost missed your ping!

I didn't notice Duncan on this story. Are they just failing to give him any credit? I'd think he'd be on this one like white on rice? (ooh, bad play on words)
105 posted on 07/22/2007 4:15:20 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: vbmoneyspender
OK

I disagree with him on a minor point.
I don't even agree with myself 100%

106 posted on 07/22/2007 4:22:33 PM PDT by JoinJuniorAchievement (“ I am a Veteran, I support Ron Paul.")
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To: JoinJuniorAchievement
I disagree with him on a minor point.

</chuckling>

107 posted on 07/22/2007 4:28:38 PM PDT by vbmoneyspender
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To: samtheman; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Nobody is calling George Bush all-holy. That’s some fantasy of yours, festering in some unexamined corner of your brain.

Perhaps you'd care to explain the following statement then:
Maybe if you were a Southern Baptist instead of just a "grandchild" of a few, you would be able to tell the difference between a Christian Patriot prayer for our President and a pagan prayer to a lesser deity.
NYT: Ron Paul for President... of the 'Wackos'? [Birchers, Israel-Haters, etc.], #449
108 posted on 07/22/2007 4:35:22 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: elhombrelibre
Again, American Free Press is where Ron Paul’s thoughts frequently appear. Why?

Have you found another reprint of RP's freely-reprintable articles there at AFP? Despite looking hard, no one has found anything except the one which opposes the Tobin tax to support the United Nations?

Please confirm these other articles that you claim, dates, titles, whether they were written for AFP or just more articles lifted from RP's website, possibly without AFP even notifying him. Though it's not like Ron Paul cares who reprints his articles. He's a free speech guy.
109 posted on 07/22/2007 4:40:20 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: t_skoz

An “irrationality of Middle Eastern politics” bump!


110 posted on 07/22/2007 4:41:48 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: SJackson
In general, not worth the discussion, his impact on anything other than earmarks for is district is zero.

Of course he forwards the earmarks to the committee as a constituent service. Then he votes against them.

In a recent story about a theater-renovation project, the project's primary tax parasite civic leader was congratulated on Ron Paul putting in the requested earmark. He replied, "I'd be happier if I thought he'd actually vote for it."

You see, his constituents know full well how he votes on these things. Yet, they keep re-electing him. By large margins.
111 posted on 07/22/2007 4:46:14 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: kidd
1. The discussion revolves around a LOAN, not a gift. I’m not entirely familiar with the finances, but I do believe that it mainly serves as a vehicle to make payments from the communists to an American firm. So all of the Freepers who are clever with the math, please correct your statements that this would be like a LOAN of $1M to 5000 Americans.

Surely you're aware that such "loans" are routinely declared forgiven three to five years later.

You must be a noob not to know this old congressional trick.
112 posted on 07/22/2007 4:50:46 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: italianquaker
All paulette threads deserve a buffoon alert

Oh, darn. Does that mean we've lost the massive and key voting bloc of Italian Quakers?
113 posted on 07/22/2007 4:53:15 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: TypeZoNegative; OrthodoxPresbyterian
How about we use that money to give to people who are interested in making something of themselves.

You mean back to US, the people they stole it from to begin with? I think Dr. Paul could be persuaded. Blackbird.

114 posted on 07/22/2007 5:03:53 PM PDT by BlackbirdSST (I'm dug in, giving no more ground to the rino stampede. BB)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Ah, everything old is new again.

Chinagatethemovie.com

115 posted on 07/22/2007 5:10:59 PM PDT by WannabeTurk (01/20/09)
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To: George W. Bush

nah


116 posted on 07/22/2007 5:20:06 PM PDT by italianquaker (When will pelosi ask congressman ellison to apologize for his 9-11 remarks?)
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To: George W. Bush

immigration, bush for, paul against,
north american union, the destruction of us sovernignty, bush for, paul against
federal reserve, a private banking institution, bush for, paul against
income tax, bush for, paul against.
giving us tax payer money to one of the best economies in the world, china, bush for, paul against

despite some of the other things paul may say, he really is against a lot of things most freepers are against.

as ltc said in apocalypse” one day this war is going to end..” than it will be too late to deal with these other issues.

someone delcared war on the american tax payer and forgot to tell us.


117 posted on 07/22/2007 5:49:17 PM PDT by rineaux (I Refuse to comment on this post until I know what Jesse Jackson Thinks.)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

Enough of kissing China’s butt.


118 posted on 07/22/2007 5:50:02 PM PDT by wastedyears (Freedom is the right of all sentient beings - Peter Cullen as Optimus Prime)
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To: rineaux
as ltc said in apocalypse” one day this war is going to end..” than it will be too late to deal with these other issues.

Except for Dr. Paul's opposition to the Iraq invasion (and they still haven't produced a WMD stockpile or delivery platforms as they promised us they'd find in Iraq), Ron Paul holds the most conservative positions in the race. Some might argue that he's too conservative to get elected, well, that's their right to think that.

He has sounded the great Reagan themes and never wavered on them during his career.

And his great liberty message and his appeals to so many new voter blocs and young people is exactly what our party needs. We need to jettison the big-government Dim-lite agenda and get back to our winning conservative message. Or we will lose in 2008.

The fundraising and support Ron Paul has should be sending a clear message to the party: "Go back to your conservative roots. Stop being the party of big-government." You know, even Ron Paul is surprised at the enthusiasm, the young people being so excited.
119 posted on 07/22/2007 6:16:16 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: elhombrelibre

Answer your own question. Ask someone who might know. You are no doubt sleuth enough to find RP’s office phone or this mag’s contact info.

If the charge is serious (and it seems to be making you all a-quiver), then do some digging, sherlock.

But please also find the column where RP expresses any crpyto-neo-mystico ideas (I love the adjectives you use - I thought only college campus liberals called anyone crytpo- anything.) I suspect you, with your obsession with this idea, have a crytpo subliminal RP fetish. Just give in.


120 posted on 07/22/2007 6:22:19 PM PDT by Puddleglum
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To: George W. Bush

great points.

as he gets more and more popular, the more the media and the establishment will try to tear him down.

i supported w twice like i did his pop. the first cast i voted for prez was reagan.

time for us all to drop the name callings and dividing the country and concentrate on who really is sticking it to us and do something about it.


121 posted on 07/22/2007 6:24:45 PM PDT by rineaux (I Refuse to comment on this post until I know what Jesse Jackson Thinks.)
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To: Puddleglum
Whew, such a cult of defenders Ron Paul has. I may be wrong. Maybe he’s not an associate of Nazi types. Maybe it’s just a coincidence that they quote him so much and reprint his articles. Maybe he doesn’t smoke dope either, but something about him appeals to dope smokers. Maybe he doesn’t have anything against America. It’s just that those who do are attracted to him. Maybe he’s not anti-military, but those who are are attracted to him. Maybe he’s not pro-Gay, but those who are like his stands. But hey, relax. You’re a little too serious about the great man. Try to lighten up.
122 posted on 07/22/2007 6:40:37 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: rineaux
as he gets more and more popular, the more the media and the establishment will try to tear him down.

Candidates like Rudi (and maybe Romney) will deflate, having thought Bush had turned us all into liberals. The others, FDT especially, will realize that the old Reagan/Goldwater message of small-government and liberty and pro-life/pro-family really is still a winner. And after 2006, we'd better find a winning message. Well, just return to that message that is made us winners before.

Ron Paul is already pulling the party to the Right, no matter how much they try to pretend otherwise.
123 posted on 07/22/2007 6:40:55 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: BlackbirdSST

Kneepads??? Are you one of Ron Paul’s Gay supporters?


124 posted on 07/22/2007 6:41:53 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: Rodney King

Is it the same cranks and weirdos or is this cult breaking out into a wider audience of True Believers.


125 posted on 07/22/2007 6:43:54 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: italianquaker

It’s like talking to people in a cult. I cannot believe they’re this devout about the man who is either a tool of the Left or simply a naive to the point of not realizing that ideas have consequences.


126 posted on 07/22/2007 6:45:31 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

He won’t even be president, so what type he’ll be is irrelevant. How would you get the majority of Americans to vote for him? You realize that’s required, don’t you?


127 posted on 07/22/2007 6:48:48 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: elhombrelibre
He won’t even be president, so what type he’ll be is irrelevant. How would you get the majority of Americans to vote for him? You realize that’s required, don’t you?

Ron Paul enjoys significant Independent and even libertarian-leaning Democrat cross-over support. I don't see many of the other GOP candidates drawing that sort of support from "across the fence".

128 posted on 07/22/2007 6:53:56 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (Please Ping or FReepMail me to be added to the Great Ron Paul Ping List)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

What would a number be that is significant? Enough to get Hillary elected? I am so reminded of Perot when I hear this stuff that I really hope people can remember the baleful effect that that enthusiasm led to.


129 posted on 07/22/2007 6:55:44 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: elhombrelibre
What would a number be that is significant? Enough to get Hillary elected? I am so reminded of Perot when I hear this stuff that I really hope people can remember the baleful effect that that enthusiasm led to.

Except that Paul is not running Third Party. He is running as a Republican. Obviously, any Republican candidate should hope to get Independent and even Democrat cross-over support.

130 posted on 07/22/2007 7:01:27 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (Please Ping or FReepMail me to be added to the Great Ron Paul Ping List)
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To: BnBlFlag
Paul does not copyright his writings and they can be published by anyone. He does not write “for” them.

Facts don't matter to the Paul bashers.

131 posted on 07/22/2007 7:05:27 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

From dope smokers, anti-Semites, Gays, anarchists, anti-defense Liberals and Conservatives, radical isolationists, and others? Come on. America isn’t perfect, but it’s not time to throw in the towel, get stoned, and turn the world over to the Islamists Nazis abroad and the skin heads at home. Libertarianism that leads to anti-Americanism is no virtue.


132 posted on 07/22/2007 7:05:34 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: BlackbirdSST

Heh, sorry, wrong thread!


133 posted on 07/22/2007 7:09:40 PM PDT by TypeZoNegative (Trinidad&Tobago: Proof that a Muslim minority (5%pop) causes a majority of a country's problems.)
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To: elhombrelibre
You can bash Bush all you want, but he’s one thing Ron Paul will never be: President of the United States of America.

Doesn't matter, he's already accomplished one of his goals - addressing the need to maintain our Constitution and our sovereignty. And big government.

If Paul goes deep in the primaries, the other candidates will have no choice but to address some of his ideas. And Paul has a huge cross-section of voters, lots of independents out there. People who were disgusted with the political process or never paid attention to politics are now supporting him.

His legacy is already sealed. Paul is already one of the most honorable Congressmen of all time.

134 posted on 07/22/2007 7:10:06 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: elhombrelibre
You can bash Bush all you want, but he’s one thing Ron Paul will never be: President of the United States of America.

So was Bill Clinton.

135 posted on 07/22/2007 7:12:03 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: elhombrelibre
What would a number be that is significant? Enough to get Hillary elected?

How would a vote for Paul get Hillary elected? Or do you know so little that you don't even realize he is running in the GOP primary?

136 posted on 07/22/2007 7:13:57 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Rodney King

Agreed. Not necessarily something to be proud.


137 posted on 07/22/2007 7:14:07 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: elhombrelibre
How would you get the majority of Americans to vote for him?

Are you kidding. He has total cross-over appeal. Both the right and the left are supporting Paul.

Paul will go deep in the primaries and he'll force the leading GOP candidates to acknowledge the real issues.

138 posted on 07/22/2007 7:16:59 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: Rodney King
Because ultimately, most American voters will see him as profoundly irresponsible. You can insult me all you want, but that’s the way I’m sure it’d work out. And the fact that so many people here who are his followers can only insult me and not explain these eccentricities of Ron Paul mean that he’ll end up torn to pieces in a general election once the press is done puffing him up so he could harm the Republican Party.
139 posted on 07/22/2007 7:17:17 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Well, I’m done discussing this. I don’t think he’s going to win a single state. If I’m wrong, you can remind me of it.


140 posted on 07/22/2007 7:18:20 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: elhombrelibre

I see. The way you said it earlier it looked to me like you thought he was running 3rd party. My mistake.


141 posted on 07/22/2007 7:20:32 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: elhombrelibre

if all these groups are for preserving the constitution, eliminating the private banks under the title of federal reserve and eliminating the illegal income tax, against immigration (our conservative prez w wanted), against the north american union than these groups cant be all that bad.

5 billion tax dollars to china??

i supported w. have gotten christmas cards from him every year since he was gov in texas. he has let a lot of us down.

paul served in the military, maybe another reason he is picking up some of their support as well.

your non arguments, just name callings are very weak. may say a lot about the so called conservative candidate you are supporting. your better than that, right?


142 posted on 07/22/2007 7:21:11 PM PDT by rineaux (I Refuse to comment on this post until I know what Jesse Jackson Thinks.)
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To: elhombrelibre
From dope smokers, anti-Semites, Gays, anarchists, anti-defense Liberals and Conservatives, radical isolationists, and others? Come on.

Beyond your ridiculous characterization of Paul's support (which would not describe most of the people I met at the last local Ron Paul Meet-Up at all) that's a pretty short-sighted view for you to take. If you're running for Election, you don't care who votes for you or for what reasons.

Just so long as they vote for you, and not your opponent. You don't turn down anyone's vote... after all, it's not like you're required to appoint them to a Cabinet position after you're elected.

143 posted on 07/22/2007 7:21:49 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (Please Ping or FReepMail me to be added to the Great Ron Paul Ping List)
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To: elhombrelibre
From dope smokers, anti-Semites, Gays, anarchists, anti-defense Liberals and Conservatives, radical isolationists, and others

You really are an elitist, aren't you.

The fact that the majority of Paul's supporters are just hardscrabble folks who deeply care about the Constitution and are disgusted with the political process & both parties doesn't mean you can malign them.

Who do you think these folks would vote for if Paul wasn't running? They'd stay home or vote 3rd party like they always do. Shouldn't the GOP libertarianize a little and attract these folks instead of mocking them during the campaign and then screaming at them when their RINO candidate lose the election, like they always do?

144 posted on 07/22/2007 7:22:32 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: elhombrelibre
Well, I’m done discussing this. I don’t think he’s going to win a single state. If I’m wrong, you can remind me of it.

LOL. I'm just glad he's in the race. I don't think Paul has a chance of winning either, but you need to realize that there are issues out there that aren't being discussed, and people are fed up over the war. Real folks who has sons and daughters serving.

Of course, if Paul is nominated I probably won't be sober for a week from celebrating.

145 posted on 07/22/2007 7:25:39 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: scan59

more pings


146 posted on 07/22/2007 7:28:47 PM PDT by scan58 (Diversity results in a collection of unconnected individuals.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
I assume you’ve been to forward areas talking with those sons and daughters serving? In my experience in Iraq, I didn’t meet any that didn’t want to finish the job. And if these sons and daughters are adult enough to join up, we need to listen to them. The Libertarian side of me finds it odd that folks want to treat them as if they're not adults.
147 posted on 07/22/2007 7:30:29 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2076032.ece


148 posted on 07/22/2007 7:49:56 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Who will Liberals shift the blame to if their retreat from Iraq turns into a disaster?)
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To: Calpernia; FARS; Founding Father; CarolinaGOP; milford421; Velveeta; DAVEY CROCKETT

Ping.


149 posted on 07/22/2007 8:11:18 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny ( Today is a good day for working on some heavy praying. The world needs God to hear them.)
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To: JoinJuniorAchievement
The best approach to Iran, and Syria for that matter, is to heed the advice of the Iraq Study Group Report
---Ron Paul, in his own words
150 posted on 07/22/2007 8:39:52 PM PDT by samtheman
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