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Brain-injured man speaks after 6 years
AP via Yahoo ^ | 8/1/2007 | MALCOLM RITTER

Posted on 08/01/2007 11:00:27 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan

NEW YORK - A brain-damaged man who could communicate only with slight eye or thumb movements for six years can speak again, after stimulating electrodes were placed in his brain, researchers report.

The 38-year-old also regained the ability to chew and swallow, which allows him to be spoon-fed, rather than relying on nourishment through a tube in his belly.

The man's brain was injured during an assault, he spent six years with only occasional signs of consciousness and no useful movement of his limbs. In an experiment, researchers implanted electrodes in his brain for a procedure called deep brain stimulation, which is routinely done for Parkinson's disease and some other illnesses.

They turned the electrodes on and off over six months to test their effect, and reported the results in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. The man, who was not identified at the family's request, now has them on throughout the day.

Experts called the report exciting but cautioned that the approach must be tested in more people before its value can be known. The researchers have already begun a study of additional patients.

Before the electrodes were implanted the man was in what doctors call a "minimally conscious state." That means he showed only occasional awareness of himself and the environment. In a coma or vegetative state, by contrast, patients show no outward signs of awareness.

There are no firm statistics on how many Americans are in a minimally conscious state, but one estimate suggests 112,000 to 280,000. Doctors may try medications to improve their condition but no drugs have been firmly established as helpful.

The man described in the Nature study speaks in a breathy but audible voice, said Dr. Joseph Giacino, a co-lead author. He does not initiate conversations but can reply to others, typically with one to three words, said Giacino, of the JFK Johnson Rehabilitation Institute in Edison, N.J.

Several weeks ago he recited the first half of the Pledge of Allegiance without assistance, Giacino said.

The man also recovered some movement. He can demonstrate motions such as brushing his teeth, said study lead author Dr. Nicholas Schiff of Weill Cornell Medical College in New York. He can't actually carry out that task because the tendons in his arms contracted after years of immobility.

"He is still totally dependent and severely disabled," Schiff said.

But the treatment has helped him, the man's mother said in a statement. "Now, my son can eat, express himself and let us know if he is in pain. He enjoys a qualify of life we never thought possible," she said.

Dr. James Bernat, a professor of neurology at Darmouth Medical School who didn't participate in the new work, called the Nature report exciting and important. Further study is needed to shed light on how many patients would respond and how to identify the minimally conscious patients with the best chance of being helped, he said.

He noted that a similar treatment did not help Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman in a vegetative state whose care triggered national controversy before her death in 2005. That's the typical outcome for electrical brain stimulation in vegetative states, he said.

Dr. Ross Zafonte of the University of Pittsburgh, who also was familiar with the study results, agreed that "we need to know more" and said the approach is "very interesting and holds great promise."

___


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: giannajessen; schiavo
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Inverse
however in defense of the people who think this case is not the same, there is this quote from the article.

As I noted above:

I don’t believe there is a sharp distinction between “minimally conscious” and “vegetative” especially with something as complex as the human brain. Such categories are man-made subjective classifications. Nor do I accept the characterization of Terri as “vegetative” since there were numerous people with impressive credentials on both sides of that diagnosis.

51 posted on 08/01/2007 1:44:39 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (When toilet paper is a luxury, you have achieved communism.)
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To: ElkGroveDan
Therefore, this case is ENTIRELY comparable to the Schiavo case. I am sure that if enough money were at stake and enough lawyers involved someone could easily have made a good case to kill this poor man several years ago, inculding a self-serving oral recollection that "it's what he would have wanted."

Michael Schaivo is breathing relief.

The article noted "He noted that a similar treatment did not help Terri Schiavo," but when was that treatment tried? There have been marvelous advances over the last 10 years.

52 posted on 08/01/2007 1:46:58 PM PDT by Barney Gumble (A liberal is someone too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel - Robert Frost)
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To: ElkGroveDan

A valid point however by trying to equate the 2 you seem to be implying that if only they had held off on killing her this would have saved her.

I think we agree that no one in that situation should be killed. Despair is both a sin and a logical fallacy.


53 posted on 08/01/2007 1:51:06 PM PDT by Inverse
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To: Inverse
you seem to be implying that if only they had held off on killing her this would have saved her.

Nope. I made no such implication. However many of the arguments that were used while Terri was still alive on the side of killing her, could also have been used in arguing to kill this man.

54 posted on 08/01/2007 1:55:55 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (When toilet paper is a luxury, you have achieved communism.)
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To: Inverse

Michael gave an interview to the Saint Petersburg Times shortly after that procedure. He told them it had helped her. I read the article a week or two ago, and now can’t find it. I’m hoping someone else will chime in and provide a link. I’m pretty sure I got the link from one of the threads here.


55 posted on 08/01/2007 1:56:15 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Warning: Does not play well with trolls. (Is that a warning, or a threat?) ~ )
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To: ElkGroveDan

“He noted that a similar treatment did not help Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman in a vegetative state whose care triggered national controversy before her death in 2005. That’s the typical outcome for electrical brain stimulation in vegetative states, he said”

My first thought was Terry...

Then I got down to the mention of her ...

I dont remember ever reading that this had been done for her...when was this done and was the application etc in the same way..was it the same type electodes?

Terry was not as disabled as this man...and she spoke etc...


56 posted on 08/01/2007 2:03:55 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: ElkGroveDan

I’ll bet that was NEVER tried on Terri! and We know Terri was NOT in a vegetative state. Terri was murdered in a most horrendous manner.


57 posted on 08/01/2007 2:17:10 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: Inverse
Found it! Straight from the Saint Petersburg Times, who sided with Michael throughout.


The brain stimulator implant was a success, said her husband, Mike.

58 posted on 08/01/2007 2:42:23 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Warning: Does not play well with trolls. (Is that a warning, or a threat?) ~ )
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To: True Republican Patriot
"We know Terri was NOT in a vegetative state."

She was in a persistive vegetative state, due to massive brain tissue loss. She was also blind due to cortical loss.

59 posted on 08/01/2007 2:46:53 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: dmz; yellowdoghunter; smiley
'dmz': "How is it that you know what “side” I am on? Have we ever spoken on this topic? Have you mined my 5900+ FR posts to come up with anything I’ve said on the Terri Schiavo topic? I can answer for you. You don’t know what side I am on. No, we have never spoken on this topic, and no, you’ve not mined my posting history for anything on this topic. In other words, you know spit about me and my thoughts on this topic."

Thanks for the invite...

*** *** *** *** ***

12-Year-Old Maryland Girl Has Not Aged In Years

'yellowdoghunter' (replying to 'smiley', not 'dmz'): "Sad to say that some would want to starve/thirst her to death....maybe even some here at FR. And then you got the ones that worry about what this is costing....shameful. Anyway, prayers for that little girl and her family. May God give them strength."

'dmz': "What a crock you are spewing. Show me one post from any person anywhere on the planet earth that has recommmended starving her. It has never happened anywhere except in your head. No one on this thread (through post 71) has even mentioned cost EXCEPT YOU. In my book, you are the shameful one, intent on exploiting every medical situation outside the norm as another Terri Schiavo situation. Disgusting."

*** *** *** *** ***

Michael J. Fox is a Cannibal

(Since banned) 'conserv13': "Cannibalism? Is he actually eating the embryos?"

'dmz': "No, only the stem cells, with a side of onion rings."


60 posted on 08/01/2007 2:51:31 PM PDT by StAnDeliver
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To: NYer; Salvation; holdonnow

ping


61 posted on 08/01/2007 3:06:37 PM PDT by AliVeritas
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To: Barney Gumble
>> The article noted "He noted that a similar treatment did not help Terri Schiavo," but when was that treatment tried?

1991, or thereabouts. The doctors who made the implantation sounded more like hustlers and experimenters than care-givers. The implant was left in her brain. Michael ended up using that as an excuse for not letting her have any brain MRIs in later years.

You are right, there were many medical advances in the fifteen years before she was killed.

62 posted on 08/01/2007 3:12:27 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: BykrBayb

Good digging on that.

This is proof that he is a liar.

The only way he could weasel out of it is to say the newspaper lied, and while I do not like to defend most newspapers, in this case they do not have a motive to lie.


63 posted on 08/01/2007 3:18:04 PM PDT by Inverse
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To: spunkets
I don't believe either point, but let's suppose you were right. How did Terri happen to get into the persistent vegetative state and become cortically blind? The autopsy report ruled out the "bulimia theory" of her so-called "collapse," and there went the only alibi of the only other person present with Terri.

Explain this for us. How did she get from asleep in bed to severely injured and nearly dead on the hallway floor after her angry husband came home late on Saturday night?

64 posted on 08/01/2007 3:20:16 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: dmz
'dmz': "How do you find this story at all comparable to Terry Schiavo?"

Of course, you're not saying that you have never, uninvitedly, imposed your paralogisms about Schiavo on non-Schiavo threads about spontaneous brain-injury recoveries -- that would never happen. Right? Right? Of course not...

Buffalo Firefighter Awakens from 10 Year Coma

'dmz': "My name is Don, Don Quixote."

*** *** *** *** ***

After 10 years, brain-damaged Buffalo-area fireman makes astounding recovery (Schiavo Parallel?)

'dmz ': "Without a doubt, were a story to be posted about a woman fainting from the heat during an opera performance, the first response would be "good thing she wasn't married to Michael Schiavo"."

'dmz': "What would be even more miraculous if the posts that begin this thread were not so damned predictable."


65 posted on 08/01/2007 3:25:29 PM PDT by StAnDeliver (Again, thanks for the invite...)
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To: BykrBayb

No, no, no, she did not suffer “a loss of potassium in her body that caused her heart to stop beating.” Lottery odds against that all along. Fifteen years later the M.E. dismissed it as absurd in the autopsy report. We are still looking for the reason Terri went from asleep to a crumpled, broken heap on the hallway floor, so close to death she needed seven defibs. That kind of damage could not have been caused by bulimic collapse.


66 posted on 08/01/2007 3:26:06 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: Inverse

Thanks, but the digging I did was through my cache of recently visited sites. Somebody else posted this recently, and I can’t remember who. I had clicked on their link, so it was still in my cache.

My favorite evidence to post on behalf of Terri comes from those who supported killing her. They can’t refute their own evidence.

The court transcripts are full of evidence directly from Michael and his supporters. One of his hand-picked doctors who testified that Terri was PVS, provided evidence that she wasn’t. Earlier in this thread I posted part of his video of her responding, which is impossible with PVS. His supporters have repeatedly stated that she responded only periodically. That’s what minimally conscious patients do. PVS patients can’t respond, ever.


67 posted on 08/01/2007 3:26:27 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Warning: Does not play well with trolls. (Is that a warning, or a threat?) ~ )
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To: BykrBayb

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1103363/posts?page=1229#1229


68 posted on 08/01/2007 3:31:12 PM PDT by jedward (Mission '08 - Take back the House & Senate. No Negotiations...No Prisoners.)
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To: T'wit

You’re absolutely right. There was a lot of misinformation spread through the St. Pete Times, in pursuit of Terri’s death. I always find it valuable when I come across admissions from them that they’ve since tried to distance themselves from.


69 posted on 08/01/2007 3:31:42 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Warning: Does not play well with trolls. (Is that a warning, or a threat?) ~ )
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To: T'wit
"The autopsy report ruled out the "bulimia theory" of her so-called "collapse,""

No, it did not. The examiner could make no definative conclusion. That's what the autopsy report contained.

"Explain this for us. How did she get from asleep in bed to severely injured and nearly dead on the hallway floor after her angry husband came home late on Saturday night?"

I have no desire to explain, or elaborate on pure speculative fantasy.

70 posted on 08/01/2007 3:33:39 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: ElkGroveDan

That is so exciting. Thank you for posting.


71 posted on 08/01/2007 3:36:41 PM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (Evil never stops.)
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To: ElkGroveDan
Maybe there is help for Ted Kennedy after all.
Osama Obama

 
72 posted on 08/01/2007 3:37:30 PM PDT by counterpunch ("The Democrats are the party of slavery." - Cindy Sheehan)
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To: dmz; grassboots.org; TheDon; theFIRMbss
'grassboots.org': "...If we remain silent and don't work for change, Pre-Hitler Germany will be a pale memory compared to the brutalism and barbarous murders that will take place under our very noses. We will not be able to claim we didn't know it...There are already millions of unborn children being murdered each year - have we forgotten 9/11?"

'dmz': "Again, the Falwell/Robertson contingent checks in. You are, with all due respect, just another variety of America hater. This sitaution [sic] is all America's fault, she's evil and all the people therein are doomed to hell."

'TheDon (in reply to 'theFIRMbss', not 'dmz')': "If it is a private matter, why do they need to involve others in killing Terri? Doctors, nurses, hospice workers. And they are killing Terri under Florida law, which allows them to do so. Hardly a private family matter. It is a ridiculous argument, meant to salve a guilty conscience."

'dmz': "Then you should be posting your stuff over at DU. You're pretty much preaching to the choir around here, and you're stuck in something of a loop."


73 posted on 08/01/2007 3:40:45 PM PDT by StAnDeliver (Again, thanks for the invite...)
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To: Regulator

I had to read it again to check. This happened in New York, not Florida. So Judge Greer has no chance of jurisdiction over this guy. I notice that they’re not giving his name, though.


74 posted on 08/01/2007 3:44:37 PM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (Evil never stops.)
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To: BykrBayb
"Earlier in this thread I posted part of his video of her responding, which is impossible with PVS. His supporters have repeatedly stated that she responded only periodically."

The doc testified in court, that there was no response. That testimony came after the doc's educated contemplation of the matter, not his optomistic, off the cuff comment generated at the spur of the moment during the exam. The cut showing that event was seconds long, out of ~45mins of taping an exam which was focused on obtaining any response. I was also originally misled by that cut, becauseit was presented as typical of the responses given. It was not. It was purely coincidental action, and not a resonse at all. It doesn't matter that all that could be presented was a few secs, out of a 45 min exam. The autopsy proved she was blind. Also, no one can truthfully claim, that she lost that much occipital mass during the brief period she had those feeding tubes removed. Again, she was blind, which proves that there was no response.

75 posted on 08/01/2007 3:46:08 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets
>> No, it did not. The examiner could make no definative conclusion.

Dr. Thogmartin was at pains to refute bulimia as a cause. In essence, he made fun of the whole idea, albeit in polite medical language. "Bulimia" wasn't even a medical opinion, but one made up by a trial lawyer named Gary Fox for purposes of a lawsuit.

Suffice to say, that "explanation" is at odds with medical facts and hopeless. Do you have any other guesses?

76 posted on 08/01/2007 3:49:16 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit
" Dr. Thogmartin was at pains to refute bulimia as a cause. In essence, he made fun of the whole idea, albeit in polite medical language."

Wrong. As I said, he could make no conclusions one way, or the other-that's INCONCLUSIVE. If you want to claim otherwise, post the relevant proof.

Re: bulemia, or more appropriately behavior anologous to the symptomatic behaviors of bulemic disease." Suffice to say, that "explanation" is at odds with medical facts and hopeless."

No, it is not. The trial contained testimony regarding her behavior and the emergency room electrolyte results. The ER also failed to note any traumatic cause as the reason for her being there.

77 posted on 08/01/2007 3:59:05 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: T'wit
Sorry about the badly formatted post.

" Dr. Thogmartin was at pains to refute bulimia as a cause. In essence, he made fun of the whole idea, albeit in polite medical language."

Wrong. As I said, he could make no conclusions one way, or the other-that's INCONCLUSIVE. If you want to claim otherwise, post the relevant proof.

Re: bulemia, or more appropriately behavior anologous to the symptomatic behaviors of bulemic disease.

" Suffice to say, that "explanation" is at odds with medical facts and hopeless."

No, it is not. The trial contained testimony regarding her behavior and the emergency room electrolyte results. The ER also failed to note any traumatic cause as the reason for her being there.

78 posted on 08/01/2007 4:01:47 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: ElkGroveDan

He was minimally conscious the whole time and could communicate nonverbally but reliably - it would be hard to get an order to withhold nutrition without getting his consent.

At least I hope what I just wrote is true.


79 posted on 08/01/2007 4:01:47 PM PDT by gondramB (Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words)
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To: spunkets
>> The autopsy proved she was blind.

Nonsense. Blindness is a clinical finding. It cannot be determined with certainty post-mortem. In the instance Terri was clinically tested by three of the five court-appointed doctors to have some vision (optimum 8" - 12", or up to 18"; she could see the bright shiny balloons from further, as focus didn't matter). Yes, Dr. Cranford was one of them.

The discrepancy between clinical findings and Dr. Nelson's cortical blindness claim was most likely a sampling error.

80 posted on 08/01/2007 4:06:34 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: spunkets

She didn’t have the feeding tubes removed. Michael did. Judge Greer did. There’s actually a long list of people responsible for removing her feeding tubes. But Terri is not on that list.

The fact that Terri responded several times, as shown on the hours of video tape, proves that she was not PVS. No one claimed that she responded constantly. But you’ve seen the proof that she responded sometimes. It doesn’t matter that she sometimes didn’t respond. Or even that she failed to respond most of the time. The fact that she responded sometimes proves she wasn’t PVS. And don’t tell me that she coincidentally opened her eyes ridiculously wide when he told her to open her eyes. Now, maybe if she had opened her eyes normally, but she didn’t. She deliberately opened her eyes as wide as she could. How often does a person do that? PVS would prevent her from doing that, regardless of any outside stimulation. She wouldn’t be capable of making any purposeful facial expressions. So even it was coincidental that her purposeful facial expression followed the command to make that exact facial expression, it still proves she wasn’t PVS.

There was never any dispute about her blindness. It had already been documented that her vision was reduced to a level of legal blindness. Dehydration wasn’t going to restore her eyesight. The video of her tracking the balloon shows that she had some vision. The doctors who examined her all agreed that she had some vision. Even the doctors who later provided their assistance in killing her agreed she had some eyesight. The autopsy doesn’t prove them all wrong. As a matter of fact, it reinforces Dr. Hammasfahr’s observations.


81 posted on 08/01/2007 4:08:29 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Warning: Does not play well with trolls. (Is that a warning, or a threat?) ~ )
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To: spunkets
>> If you want to claim otherwise, post the relevant proof.

One of these days we will :-)

Meanwhile, believing in bulimia theory after the M.E. trashed it is desperate. If you don't believe Dr. Thogmartin on this, why do you believe any of his other autopsy findings -- cortical blindness for one? You can't just pick and choose the medical theories you like, y'know.

82 posted on 08/01/2007 4:14:59 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit
" Nonsense. Blindness is a clinical finding. It cannot be determined with certainty post-mortem."

It's not nonsense. It not only can be determined post mortem, it often is, as in this case. Throgmorton said she was most likely blind, because the cortical mass nesessary for sight was just not there. It's really quite simple, w/o the parts for the machinery required for the function, there is no function.

"In the instance Terri was clinically tested by three of the five court-appointed doctors to have some vision (optimum 8" - 12", or up to 18"; she could see the bright shiny balloons from further, as focus didn't matter). Yes, Dr. Cranford was one of them."

Cranford testified that there was NO RESPONSE from Terri. That's as I said in my above post. You don't get to alter, or misrepresent what his official testimony was. You have to deal with it. No response indicates the possibility that she was unable to percieve the balloons. Throgmorton's conclusion was that she could not, because the visual cortex was mostly gone.

" The discrepancy between clinical findings and Dr. Nelson's cortical blindness claim was most likely a sampling error."

Sampling error? LOL!

83 posted on 08/01/2007 4:20:07 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: T'wit
As usual, none of the Starvation Nation cadre present on this thread care to note the truly critical test of the supposed Schiavo "influence" on the 2006 election cycle.

To quote Michael Schiavo on Larry King Live: "[TerriPAC] is a PAC that I founded, it's going to be holding some of these people accountable for what they did."

But in Michael's first electoral 'assault' in 2006, Schiavo's PAC took a royal asskicking in his first attempt to seek revenge against those who sought to prevent Terri's starvation.

In an election year where Democrat gained 31 seats, Schiavo's support proved to be the kiss of death to many other Democrat candidates that might have otherwise rode the historically inevitable mid-2nd-term opposition party wave.

In Florida, Schiavo's PAC:

LOST ! Jim Davis for Governor - after $3,500 [in blood money], and a joint fundraiser with honorary co-chair Rep. Barney Frank.

LOST ! (FL-9) Phyllis Busansky

LOST ! (FL-10) Samm Simpson

LOST ! (FL-21) Frank Gonzalez

LOST ! (FL-25) Michael Calderin

Outside of Florida:

LOST ! Ned Lamont for Senate - Michael campaigned for him in person in Connecticut.

LOST ! (CO-4) Angie Paccione - Schiavo stormed Congresswoman Marilyn Musgrave's Loveland office in July, then held a joint press brag outside with Paccione.

LOST ! (MA-9) Jack Robinson

LOST ! (NJ-7) Linda Stender

LOST ! (NY-29) Eric Massa

LOST ! (OH-1) John Cranley

84 posted on 08/01/2007 4:21:08 PM PDT by StAnDeliver (You think we'll ever hear from Michael Schiavo again? Yet his FRINO Starvation Nation lives on....)
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To: spunkets

Thats your version and you are welcome to your opinions. I will stand by mine and those of many who knew Terri best and were by her bedside whenever they weren’t forbidden to be there by her HINO and his enablers. Thank you!


85 posted on 08/01/2007 4:24:24 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: gondramB
He was minimally conscious the whole time and could communicate nonverbally but reliably - it would be hard to get an order to withhold nutrition without getting his consent. At least I hope what I just wrote is true.

Look at the videos of Terri and tell me she wasn't communicating nonverbally.

86 posted on 08/01/2007 4:25:31 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (When toilet paper is a luxury, you have achieved communism.)
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To: spunkets

I should also point out the fact that the videos with Terri responding were played in court. Michael’s lawyer had the volume muted. Judge Greer was blind. So he didn’t see or hear the video taped evidence.


87 posted on 08/01/2007 4:27:40 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Warning: Does not play well with trolls. (Is that a warning, or a threat?) ~ )
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To: spunkets
The doc testified in court, that there was no response.

Whoa! How did I miss that? All of the doctors testified that she did respond. Michael's doctors also testified that she was PVS, but they still testified that she responded. One of them testified that his own definition for PVS, which was in conflict with the legal definition used by the State of Florida and the definition used by the American Medical Association, included patients who responded.

88 posted on 08/01/2007 4:34:53 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Warning: Does not play well with trolls. (Is that a warning, or a threat?) ~ )
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To: BykrBayb
"She didn’t have the feeding tubes removed. Michael did. Judge Greer did. "

Include Gov Bush's review team in there also.

"There’s actually a long list of people responsible for removing her feeding tubes. "

The list includes numerous folks with considerable medical expertise, none of whom could be effectively refuted.

"But Terri is not on that list."

Her husband testified to what Terri thought about the matter. Husbands and wives generally do know what each other thinks about that. The husband dialed 911, showed considerable concern and love for his wife and was found to be blameless in the matter by both the med folks involved and the law. The husbands testimony in the matter was heard and the testimony of Terri's family was heard. The husband's testimony was believed. THe important part to note is that Terri had no hope of improving, and that's what the whole thing centered on.

"The fact that Terri responded several times, as shown on the hours of video tape, proves that she was not PVS."

There are no hours of video tape. there are a few mins of edited tape and a failure to provide info reguarding over 10 years of no response. That includes to the implanted sitmulators. The tapes themselves show no response, especially after the coroner's found she was blind.

"So even it was coincidental that her purposeful facial expression followed the command to make that exact facial expression, it still proves she wasn’t PVS."

When one fails to give the full results that were obtained from an exam like this, which lasted at least 45mins, and only presents the rare actions that appear to be responses, it's called fraud. That's all I see, fraud.

"There was never any dispute about her blindness. It had already been documented that her vision was reduced to a level of legal blindness. ... The video of her tracking the balloon shows that she had some vision."

She was blind and could not follow the balloon. From pg 8 of the autopsy report:

"Of particular importance was the hypoxic damage and neuronal loss in her occipital lobes, which indicates cortical blindness."

" it still proves she wasn’t PVS."

The neurologists made that conclusion, because she showed NO RESPONSE.

"The doctors who examined her all agreed that she had some vision. Even the doctors who later provided their assistance in killing her agreed she had some eyesight."

No response means, NO RESPONSE. Again, from page 8 of the autopsy report:

""Of particular importance was the hypoxic damage and neuronal loss in her occipital lobes, which indicates cortical blindness."

89 posted on 08/01/2007 5:11:59 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: BykrBayb
"I should also point out the fact that the videos with Terri responding were played in court. Michael’s lawyer had the volume muted. Judge Greer was blind. So he didn’t see or hear the video taped evidence. "

Doesn't matter, because I doubt Greer would claim much expertise in the matter. If he thought he had some, he would have provided a way to "see" and hear the flicks. The judge, and judges in general, rely on those with an appropriate background in such matters to make such scientific medical judgements and concluisons. Certainly the plaintiffs were unable to counter any of the defense's medical testimony. That would have been an easy task, if there was any truth to there claims.

90 posted on 08/01/2007 5:20:36 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: BykrBayb
" Whoa! How did I miss that? All of the doctors testified that she did respond. "

Not the guy that did the 45min exam, the short clips came from. His court testimony was that there was no response. That's why the parents put the tapes out on the net and called him a liar.

91 posted on 08/01/2007 5:24:29 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets
>> I have no desire to explain, or elaborate on pure speculative fantasy.

Aw, give it a try. Just find ANY innocent explanation that accounts for her injuries. It is no fantasy that Terri was grievously injured late that night. See, that's where the whole story starts.

You can't frame a rational opinion on how it ends without at least knowing if Michael hurt Terri that night in 1990. You could be -- and probably are -- covering up for a man who criminally assaulted his wife. It would be a travesty to support the right of a criminal assailant to finish off his victim later, with a court order. Everyone's sense of justice is outraged at the very thought of it.

92 posted on 08/01/2007 6:29:12 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: dmz

He was being fed through a feeding tube until he was able to learn how to chew and swallow again. A feeding tube is not “life support” in the truest sense of the word. Many of the nurses that took care of Terri felt that she could swallow, but Michael would not allow them to try to feed her. When the tube was removed, Terri was literally starved and dehydrated to death and Michael would not even permit the nurses to moisten her lips with a little water. If someone were to do this to an animal, they would probably be arrested and charged with animal cruelty. That this happened by court order in the United States of America is still unbelievable to me.


93 posted on 08/01/2007 6:36:41 PM PDT by srmorton (Choose Life!)
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To: spunkets
>> It's not nonsense. It not only can be determined post mortem, it often is, as in this case.

After the autopsy, ophthalmologist Thomas W. Hejkal, MD, PhD., stepped forward to say that despite the autopsy findings that Terri was visually impaired (which everyone conceded), "cortical blindness could only be diagnosed by assessing her visual function while she was living."

Dr. Hejkal says that you are misinformed.

94 posted on 08/01/2007 6:45:30 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: StAnDeliver

Interesting collection! The Democrats, the angry left and Al Jazeera are all of the opinion that the Schiavo issue destroyed the Republicans. Of course, they only said that out of their abiding concern for the Republicans. They all have a deep sincere love of the Republicans.


95 posted on 08/01/2007 6:50:29 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: srmorton
>> If someone were to do this to an animal, they would probably be arrested and charged with animal cruelty.

It is against the ANIMAL CRUELTY ordinances right there in Pinellas County. You'll have to ask Judge Greer why Terri did not qualify as an animal.

96 posted on 08/01/2007 6:52:18 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: ElkGroveDan

>>>>Brain-injured man speaks after 6 years

James Carville had been silent for the last six years?


97 posted on 08/01/2007 7:05:13 PM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in Vietnam meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: ElkGroveDan

>>He was minimally conscious the whole time and could communicate nonverbally but reliably - it would be hard to get an order to withhold nutrition without getting his consent. At least I hope what I just wrote is true.


Look at the videos of Terri and tell me she wasn’t communicating nonverbally.<<

I thought at the time that we were looking at reflexive response rather than communication but I wasn’t sure.

Since then, I have been convinced by the various medical reports and the autopsy.


98 posted on 08/01/2007 7:23:08 PM PDT by gondramB (Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words)
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To: ElkGroveDan
"Is Dewey still President?"
99 posted on 08/01/2007 7:24:05 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (We all need someone we can bleed on...)
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To: spunkets
>> Not the guy that did the 45min exam, the short clips came from. His court testimony was that there was no response.

He said one thing on the tape, to Terri herself, that we all heard; then he said the opposite in court. So which was true and which was a lie?

Here's some help with that question. The "guy" in question was Dr. Ronald Cranford, who styled himself "Dr. Humane Death." There are plenty of neurologists in Florida, but Michael's lawyers imported Dr. Humane Death all the way from Minnesota. Why? Because he always testified that the patient was PVS and should die. That's what he was paid to say.

What he said in an unguarded moment during the examination was much more believable, don't you think? You could see him and hear why he said what he said. "You can see a little, can't you!" Terri was tracking. (He also told the Schindlers after the exam that Terri did splendidly.)

As you noted, it was very short -- 45 minutes you said. PVS is determined by much more extensive testing over repeated visits (not on one day). Dr. Cranford's examination fell far short of professional standards. Only Drs. Hammesfahr and Maxfield put in the requisite time (10 hours and 5 hours respectively), and both made the requisite repeated exams. (Both affirmed that Terri was able to see, though her sight was badly impaired.)

>> That's why the parents put the tapes out on the net and called him a liar.

This was a court-ordered exam, not one of the private videos the Schindlers released.

100 posted on 08/01/2007 8:49:35 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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