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US to Discipline Top Pentagon Officers for Endorsing Christianity
Christianity Today ^ | Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007, 10:32 (BST) | by Ethan Cole, Christian Today US Correspondent

Posted on 08/27/2007 11:28:31 AM PDT by F15Eagle

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To: Hubenator

So your argument is that military personnel should be able to use their position, rank, and uniform to support any cause?


51 posted on 08/27/2007 1:03:22 PM PDT by Fan of Fiat
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To: dmz

“They are free to leave the military any time its rules are too confining.”

LOL. Hardly. Oh, I see...its ok to just allow the military to trample on my rights? I do not think so.

“And what you do and do not care about in the context of the rules governing military behavior are not really the subject of this thread.”

This statement makes no sense.

I have been in the military & have performed my job with 4.0 evaluations & an honorable discharge after enlisting for six years. I do believe my opinions matter since I was forced several times to do things I did not agree with... So, what is it you are trying to get at here? That I have no right to try to change something that is unconstitutional?

Please tell me that is not what you were saying.


52 posted on 08/27/2007 1:04:20 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Hubenator
No doubt I will not convince you of anything here... but FWIW this does not matter if it was emblazoned on the Pentagon in Gold or Bronze. It is still unconstitutional and it is wrong for the military to continue with this regulation, Period.

And I'll point out that something is not unconstitutional merely because you say it is. Period

- Because it is blatantly unconstitutional. It has caused many to forfeit rights they would otherwise have as a citizen...

Well, yeah. Military service has that requirement.

- No doubt, I could have guessed this by how you were defending the way things are in the military. Some old things die hard and this “regulation” needs to die.

Until it does, the regulation remains in effect and if the officers choose to ignore it then they deserve what they get.

53 posted on 08/27/2007 1:05:39 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericks-burg. Support CVBT.)
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To: Fan of Fiat

“So your argument is that military personnel should be able to use their position, rank, and uniform to support any cause?”

Ridiculous generalization. All E-5’s through E-8’s loooove Ovaltine!

Not “any cause” nor imply that since I am this or that rank this is a “good thing.”

But to be in uniform and just say “I support toys for tots or this or that organization” is fine... and will NOT disrupt the military as a few have said it might.


54 posted on 08/27/2007 1:09:06 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Non-Sequitur
As I asked on the other thread concerning this, are they being disciplined for promoting Christianity or for promoting Christian Embassy? It is carved in stone, thou shalt not shill for an organization whilst in uniform without the permission of thy superiors. I rather think that is the situation here.

I agree, although I think this calls for a mild discipline.

He pointed to the Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England who in early June joined the dedication of a new Islamic prayer centre at the Quantico Marine Corps Base.

That's different. That's like dedicating a new base chapel. If all these officers did was attend Christian services in a base chapel, there would be no question of any discipline.

55 posted on 08/27/2007 1:12:21 PM PDT by colorado tanker (I'm unmoderated - just ask Bill O'Reilly)
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To: Hubenator

Would you be complaining if the officers in question were being disciplined for making a commercial for CAIR or for Westboro Baptist Church or the Church of Scientology?


56 posted on 08/27/2007 1:12:57 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericks-burg. Support CVBT.)
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To: Hubenator
Not “any cause” nor imply that since I am this or that rank this is a “good thing.”

But that's what these individuals were doing by appearing in a promotional video. Why else would they have shown up in uniform?

57 posted on 08/27/2007 1:13:34 PM PDT by Fan of Fiat
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To: colorado tanker
I agree, although I think this calls for a mild discipline.

I doubt that they'll be court martialed or anything. But at their level any official disapproval will probably kill any chances they have for an additional star.

58 posted on 08/27/2007 1:15:51 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericks-burg. Support CVBT.)
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To: Non-Sequitur

“And I’ll point out that something is not unconstitutional merely because you say it is. Period”

Fair enough. No doubt the “regulations” allow for a lopsided delegation of what is permissible in ones life. On this point though it will have to change.

Hubenator: Because it is blatantly unconstitutional. It has caused many to forfeit rights they would otherwise have as a citizen...
NS: Well, yeah. Military service has that requirement.

Indeed. And this is a good thing for the sake of the country. However, I do not believe that this is the case concerning this particular discussion of ones ability to support an organization or not...

“Until it does, the regulation remains in effect and if the officers choose to ignore it then they deserve what they get.”

Or, perhaps challenge the military’s tortured logic and change the regulation. It is after all an unconstitutional regulation that has been allowed to persist and some courageous men or women will have to stand up for the constitution.


59 posted on 08/27/2007 1:19:42 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: F15Eagle

“Seven high-ranking US officers, including four generals, could face discipline for what the Pentagon considers their promotion of Christianity”


No, they’re being disciplined for evangelizing. A superior officer abusing his/her power to push a certain religious view on his/her subordinates is completly wrong, and should be punished, NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION IS BEING PUSHED.


60 posted on 08/27/2007 1:21:18 PM PDT by BritExPatInFla
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To: F15Eagle

Articles like this are usually followed by replies that should have a barf alert. The same anti-Christian rhetoric from the same anti-Christian posters we see every day. Should I read the replies, or will they cause me to lose my lunch?


61 posted on 08/27/2007 1:23:16 PM PDT by LilAngel (No blood for quislings)
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To: Fan of Fiat

Hubenator: Not “any cause” nor imply that since I am this or that rank this is a “good thing.”
FoF:But that’s what these individuals were doing by appearing in a promotional video. Why else would they have shown up in uniform?

Showing up in uniform does not say the military gives tacit approval of this or that... that is however what some in this thread are saying. I believe that is tortured logic. They probably wore their uniform because they are in the military and this video is a Christian military promotional video... they are giving their support of the ministry. However, this does not mean the military gives its sanction of this ministry. Anybody watching the video can make that distinction. For any regulation to say one needs his “superior” (and trust me...the word superior here usually was not the case) to make an appearance in a video of this nature is blatantly an abuse of power. We are to trust the superiors to make these kinds of decisions for us???


62 posted on 08/27/2007 1:28:22 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: BritExPatInFla
A superior officer abusing his/her power to push a certain religious view on his/her subordinates is completly wrong, and should be punished

Where in the article does it say "they pushed it on subordinates"? All I saw was they appeared in a promotional video.
63 posted on 08/27/2007 1:29:45 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: LilAngel

What is in these threads are the same tired and tortured logic of the military concerning the “need” to watch out for the wee ones behavior. The militarys “need” to maintain its “image”...

So...yes a barf alert to the non-brainwashed is probably needed...lol


64 posted on 08/27/2007 1:31:35 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Hubenator; Terabitten
Maybe it depends on the "controlling legal authority."

Paging Algore....

65 posted on 08/27/2007 1:32:09 PM PDT by thulldud ("Para inglÚs, oprima el dos.")
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To: LilAngel

It’s kinda a mixed-bag.


66 posted on 08/27/2007 1:33:11 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: Non-Sequitur

“Would you be complaining if the officers in question were being disciplined for making a commercial for CAIR or for Westboro Baptist Church or the Church of Scientology?”

I would not like it at all but, that would be their constitutional right. I would never make the jump that the military supports CAIR or Westboro.


67 posted on 08/27/2007 1:36:09 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Fan of Fiat

My question is were they paid anything for being in the video? Or were they interviewed by the group-and those
interviews edited for a video promoting the group. Seems
these United States of America have allowed our government to reject the founding religion(Christianity) in favor of
a form of religion that in noway reflects the Christianity of the Founding Era(1730-1892)General Washington ,on several occasions issued General Orders to them that secured our dearest Rights and Liberties and often referred to them as Christian soldiers.


68 posted on 08/27/2007 1:38:36 PM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: thulldud

“Maybe it depends on the “controlling legal authority.””

Oh indeed it does!

That is the huge problem that many are not seeing here at all! I cannot tell you how many times I have been used as a pawn for so many unmilitary things by the higher ups... that is why I fight for this particular military freedom for all service members.


69 posted on 08/27/2007 1:39:21 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: F15Eagle

This is outrageous!!!!!!!!


70 posted on 08/27/2007 1:41:09 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: F15Eagle

Catch 22 I guess-— If Christians are naked-and do/ or
say nothing that might possibly offend the infidel or atheist then they would be accepted in todays all volunteer secular force.


71 posted on 08/27/2007 1:43:10 PM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: Terabitten

That’s what I thought. Thanks for clearing it up.


72 posted on 08/27/2007 1:43:32 PM PDT by 1035rep
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To: Grimmy
Oops. When ever I copy/past, the breaks between where the quote left off and where I start yammering want to disappear. I’ll be more careful in the future, promise.

If you cut and paste without adding any html code, the original formatting is preserved with all the paragraph breaks included. If you add any html (like your bolding) to it, then all the formatting is removed. To put the paragraph breaks back in, add <p> between each paragraph or where you want a break and enclose the quoted part with <i> and </i> to make it italic.

73 posted on 08/27/2007 1:50:40 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: mrsmel
CNN report on Christian Warriors.....

Moral equivalence BS again. Bad officers for having faith.....

Should have been Wiken (sic) I guess then they could file with the IG because there were no witches ....wait for Hillary then I guess....

74 posted on 08/27/2007 1:51:09 PM PDT by colonialhk (Power and Money,the new mantra of the left!)
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To: Cvengr
"FWIW, there is a moral imperative for commanders to mandate Christian exposure of their personnel on active duty."

Such establishment of religion would be a violation of our First Amendment. Some of us believe that it is a sin to worship Jesus as a G-d.




The following letters are from the Jewish Virtual Library (letters from our first President to Hebrew Congregations--image files of manuscripts behind the link)

Gentlemen:-I thank you with great sincerity for your congratulations on my appointment to the office which I have the honor to hold by the unanimous choice of my fellow citizens, and especially the expressions you are pleased to use in testifying the confidence that is reposed in me by your congregation ...

I rejoice that a spirit of liberality and philanthropy is much more prevalent than it formerly was among the enlightened nations of the earth, and that your brethren will benefit thereby in proportion as it shall become still more extensive; happily the people of the United States have in many instances exhibited examples worthy of imitation, the salutary influence of which will doubtless extend much farther if gratefully enjoying those blessings of peace which (under the favor of heaven) have been attained by fortitude in war, they shall conduct themselves with reverence to the Deity and charity toward their fellow- creatures.

May the same wonder-working Deity, who long since delivered the Hebrews from their Egyptian oppressors, planted them in a promised land, whose providential agency has lately been conspicuous in establishing these United States as an independent nation, still continue to water them with the dews of heaven and make the inhabitants of every denomination participate in the temporal and spiritual blessings of that people whose God is Jehovah.

G. Washington.





...another letter.




To the HEBREW CONGREGATIONS IN THE CITIES OF PHILADELPHIA, NEW YORK, CHARLESTON, AND RICHMOND.

Gentlemen:-The liberality of sentiment toward each other, which marks every political and religious denomination of men in this country, stands unparalleled in the history of nations.

The affection of such a people is a treasure beyond the reach of calculation, and the repeated proofs which my fellow-citizens have given of their attachment to me and approbation of my doings form the purest source of my temporal felicity.

The affectionate expressions of your address again excite my gratitude and receive my warmest acknowledgment.

The power and goodness of the Almighty, so strongly manifested in the events of our late glorious revolution, and His kind interposition in our behalf, have been no less visible in the establishment of our present equal government. In war He directed the sword, and in peace He has ruled in our councils. My agency in both has been guided by the best intentions and a sense of duty I owe to my country.

And as my exertions have hitherto been amply rewarded by the approbation of my fellow citizens, I shall endeavor to deserve a continuance of it by my future conduct.

May the same temporal and eternal blessings which you implore for me, rest upon your congregations.

G. Washington.






...and another.




Gentlemen:

While I received with much satisfaction your address replete with expressions of esteem, I rejoice in the opportunity of assuring you that I shall always retain grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced on my visit to Newport from all classes of citizens.

The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past is rendered the more sweet from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of uncommon prosperity and security.

If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good government, to become a great and happy people.

The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy-a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my administration and fervent wishes for my felicity.

May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.

May the father of all mercies scatter light, and not darkness, upon our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in His own due time and way everlastingly happy.

G. Washington




I'm not Jewish, BTW, and no Jewish person told me to leave Christianity (although people like Mel did contribute to the decision). I studied ancient Roman history for a few years and made the decision myself.


75 posted on 08/27/2007 1:57:54 PM PDT by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt.)--has-been, will write Duncan Hunter in)
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To: FreedomCalls

Thank you, very much.


76 posted on 08/27/2007 1:58:25 PM PDT by Grimmy (equivocation is but the first step along the road to capitulation)
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To: colonialhk
wait for Hillary then I guess....

LOL. I suspected that she was something that ends in "itch"!
77 posted on 08/27/2007 1:59:05 PM PDT by mrsmel (Free Ramos and Compean! Duncan Hunter for President!)
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To: F15Eagle

Dang near every single military function I have ever been to (a lot) has had prayer to God. The ship my Brother sailed on had prayer over the intercom almost every single night, just a few months ago. This is PC to the hilt anf it is evil.


78 posted on 08/27/2007 2:02:45 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: Non-Sequitur
It is carved in stone, thou shalt not shill for an organization whilst in uniform without the permission of thy superiors.

I think you are right. I just hope they apply this discipline even-handedly and don't just pick on those who 'shill' for Christian organizations.

79 posted on 08/27/2007 2:09:57 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: F15Eagle
"The Pentagon inspector general found the seven officers to be engaged in misconduct when they appeared in a promotional fundraiser video for the evangelical group Christian Embassy three years ago, according to OneNewsNow."

Here are my questions. Should they be doing a religious "promotional fundraiser" in the Pentagon? Are they doing anything toward government establishment of religion, or are they only expressing their own religious beliefs without trying to convert others?

IMO, no one should be doing anything to promote Islam or any other religion under color of governmental authority or while on government duty, either.


80 posted on 08/27/2007 2:12:41 PM PDT by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt.)--has-been, will write Duncan Hunter in)
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To: MEGoody

“I think you are right. I just hope they apply this discipline even-handedly and don’t just pick on those who ‘shill’ for Christian organizations.”

Be careful...just because a military regulation says something does not make it constitutional.

Many laws have been changed by courageous people who stood up for their rights.


81 posted on 08/27/2007 2:17:50 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Hubenator
Be careful...just because a military regulation says something does not make it constitutional.

I don't have a problem with the military not allowing members of the armed services to promote private organizations while in uniform. If they had been out of uniform when they did this promotional video, that would be a different issue. (Or if they aren't enforcing this rule uniformly, that would be an issue.)

82 posted on 08/27/2007 2:22:06 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: familyop

“IMO, no one should be doing anything to promote Islam or any other religion under color of governmental authority or while on government duty, either.”

This issue is particularly dealing with ones wearing of a uniform while endorsing or promoting “a cause.”

“IMO, no one should be doing anything to promote Islam or any other religion under color of governmental authority or while on government duty, either.”

That is an extreme position. One which would make the ACLU proud.


83 posted on 08/27/2007 2:23:17 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: MEGoody

They are not enforcing this rule uniformly..it was brought to someones attention by the hate group mentioned in the article. The founder of this group has devoted his whole life to challenging evangelicals in the military. Someone with an axe to grind... only this kook takes it several steps further.

“I don’t have a problem with the military not allowing members of the armed services to promote private organizations while in uniform.”

I do if it is unconstitutional.


84 posted on 08/27/2007 2:29:23 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: familyop

On the contrary, I would not advocate a particular denomination. The establishment clause merely prevents establishment of religion, but it also denies the government from denying the same religion from its citizenry.

This is a different situation in regards to a commanding officer’s moral imperative to make the opportunity still available to those under his command.

Spiritual growth is strictly between God and the believer. The believer is mandated to continually renew his mind through faith in God on His grounds. The mechanisms God has provided for believers includes the role of a pastor-teacher to communicate to believers the WOrd of God and let God perform the sanctification of the believer’s heart and soul.

Creating any impediment to that process places man between his fellow man and God.

This is not advocating any denomination.

BTW, you may want to reference a more credible source than a freemason regarding Scriptural truth.


85 posted on 08/27/2007 2:41:41 PM PDT by Cvengr (The violence of evil is met with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace.)
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To: BritExPatInFla

BritExPatInFla: “A superior officer abusing his/her power to push a certain religious view on his/her subordinates is completly wrong,...”

True. However, this had nothing to do with the officers accused here. Did you read the article?


86 posted on 08/27/2007 2:46:13 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: familyop

I think, had there not been freaking out, is it would have been no more than to say, these individuals are in the military, they work at the Pentagon and they’re Christians.

But it’s made out to be something else. I’d like to be able to see it to make a call, though.


87 posted on 08/27/2007 2:48:20 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: F15Eagle

Not cool.


88 posted on 08/27/2007 2:53:26 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He Who Watches Over Israel Will Neither Slumber Nor Sleep")
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To: F15Eagle

F15Eagle: This account has been banned or suspended.

Dang!


89 posted on 08/27/2007 2:54:41 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He Who Watches Over Israel Will Neither Slumber Nor Sleep")
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To: F15Eagle

Nothing should happen to these officers.

However, because of the mentioned hate group who is devoting resources to make problems with evangelicals at the Pentagon something is probably going to happen. It is sad so many have been brainwashed on their constitutional rights to the point that challenging the military or gov’t has become anathema. I can only hope that something corrective concerning military regulations comes out of this issue...but, I will not hold my breath.

Hey, used to love watching the F-15 eagles taking off and flying formations at Kadena AB. Was back in Japan last year and saw them still flying...


90 posted on 08/27/2007 2:55:00 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Non-Sequitur
As I asked on the other thread concerning this, are they being disciplined for promoting Christianity or for promoting Christian Embassy? It is carved in stone, thou shalt not shill for an organization whilst in uniform without the permission of thy superiors.

In other words, "The military is not NASCAR."


91 posted on 08/27/2007 2:55:33 PM PDT by Polybius
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Bookmark


92 posted on 08/27/2007 2:57:26 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 ... Go ahead, look it up!)
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To: F15Eagle
"I’d like to be able to see it to make a call, though."

...agreed. There's often not enough information in "news" pieces.


93 posted on 08/27/2007 2:57:42 PM PDT by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt.)--has-been, will write Duncan Hunter in)
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To: VaBthang4

VaBthang4: “F15Eagle: This account has been banned or suspended.
Dang!”

???? what????


94 posted on 08/27/2007 2:59:42 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: VaBthang4

nah, just a joke ... :)

scroll down ... :)


95 posted on 08/27/2007 3:00:53 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: F15Eagle

There may be no athiests in a foxhole, but they sure want them in the Pentagon.


96 posted on 08/27/2007 3:01:44 PM PDT by EDINVA
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To: Hubenator

I’d love to have seen those SR-71’s blasting out of Kadena.


97 posted on 08/27/2007 3:01:54 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: EDINVA

Good point!


98 posted on 08/27/2007 3:02:12 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: Hubenator

see 95


99 posted on 08/27/2007 3:02:39 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: Polybius

Polybius: In other words, “The military is not NASCAR.”

There is a gigantic leap in logic between raking in millions of dollars from endorsements and one lending their support of a religious organization while in uniform.


100 posted on 08/27/2007 3:04:11 PM PDT by Hubenator (Evolution does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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