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Toyota skids in reliability rankings
CNNMoney.com ^ | 10/16/2007 | Peter Valdes-Dapena

Posted on 10/16/2007 10:27:25 AM PDT by eraser2005

NEW YORK, CNNMoney.com -- The Toyota brand has lost its top position for iron-clad reliability, according to an influential Consumer Reports survey released Tuesday.

The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability. The rankings are based on average predicted reliability for all models sold under a given brand.

Brands made by Toyota Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. still dominate the rankings: Scion is Toyota's low-priced car brand and Acura is Honda's luxury car brand.

Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota's Camry or V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability.

In the past, because Toyota (Charts) products have so consistently proved reliable, the magazine would assume at least average reliability for Toyota's brand new cars, without waiting for survey data from owners.

But from now on, the magazine will wait for a full year of reliability survey data to come in before it recommends a Toyota product - as it does with most other manufacturers.

(Excerpt) Read more at money.cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; US: Michigan; US: Ohio
KEYWORDS: automakers; camry; chrysler; ford; gm; honda; toyota
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Some rather damning admissions in here... that CR admits they gave Toyotas average or better ratings without any statistical data to back up their predictions....

Also some good news for domestics... They now rate 93% of all Ford/Lincoln/Mercury models as average or better (and that is WITH statistical data to back them up)

FWIW, average is a 3% or lower failure rate

1 posted on 10/16/2007 10:27:27 AM PDT by eraser2005
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To: eraser2005

Wow, even behind their budget Scion brand huh? I know three people with Scions and each of them has had a lot of problems with them.


2 posted on 10/16/2007 10:28:43 AM PDT by Slapshot68
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To: eraser2005

How can this be? Toyota having “Q” issues?

Yep, going against the religion again!


3 posted on 10/16/2007 10:29:48 AM PDT by 66-442hot (It isn't smart to kill the golden goose........)
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To: CSM; KYGrandma

ping....


4 posted on 10/16/2007 10:32:25 AM PDT by eraser2005
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To: eraser2005

CR must have discovered that Toyota doesn’t support the Kyoto agreement.


5 posted on 10/16/2007 10:36:43 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: eraser2005
Consumer Reports has about as much credibility as the New York Times itself...where this article appears.

CR hated the 4Runner...one of the best cars I ever owned.

6 posted on 10/16/2007 10:37:10 AM PDT by HardStarboard (Take No Prisoners - We're Out of Qurans)
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To: eraser2005

¿hecho en mexico?


7 posted on 10/16/2007 10:37:41 AM PDT by ▀udda▀udd (7 days - 7 ways Guero >>> with a floating, shifting, ever changing persona....)
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To: eraser2005

Some of their domestic Japanese production must be finding its way into the world market.


8 posted on 10/16/2007 10:37:57 AM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: eraser2005

‘Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota’s Camry or V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability. ‘

We get Consumer Reports magazine, and use it when making purchases.

That said, they said the same thing about the Hummer H2 (poor reliability). I own a H2, and thats simply not the case at all. Its the most reliable vehicle I’ve ever owned.

I suspect junk science about global warming is creeping into these evaluations. H2 has a big V8, just like the Tundra.


9 posted on 10/16/2007 10:38:29 AM PDT by Badeye (Free Willie!)
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To: HardStarboard

‘CR hated the 4Runner...one of the best cars I ever owned.’

Same here with my Hummer 2.


10 posted on 10/16/2007 10:39:12 AM PDT by Badeye (Free Willie!)
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To: Slapshot68

I have a couple of Scions, and have been very pleased with them. They have been bulletproof, thus far.


11 posted on 10/16/2007 10:39:20 AM PDT by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: eraser2005

Interesting. This sort of turns my views upside down on vehicle reliability. Especially the JD Powers survey which shows Buick as more reliable in categories than Toyota or Honda. I’m still very satisfied with my 4 cylinder Camry — and glad I got the 4 cylinder. I tested it a few times and just didn’t think it needed more power so I skipped the 6 cylinder — which is apparently less reliable.


12 posted on 10/16/2007 10:40:19 AM PDT by Greg F (Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
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To: eraser2005

Toyotas were never “rock solid” reliable.. most of that was crap and manipulation. Like Toyota would not issue a formal recall, but do them under different names so it wouldn’t show up in their statitistics when evaluated etc..


13 posted on 10/16/2007 10:40:41 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: eraser2005
Interesting. I know a Toyota/Lexus mechanic, and he says that the Camry's V-6 is the worst engine in Toyota's line up, and they use that engine in alot of cars, including the Lexus line.

Consumer Reports ratings should be taken with a grain of salt, however. Its sort of a car rating system for people who dont like/love cars, but they are usually pretty close.

14 posted on 10/16/2007 10:41:30 AM PDT by Paradox (Politics: The art of convincing the populace that your delusions are superior to others.)
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To: gridlock

So has my 2006 GMC Sierra Denali pickup.


15 posted on 10/16/2007 10:42:09 AM PDT by Always Independent
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To: HardStarboard
CR hated the 4Runner...one of the best cars I ever owned.

Ditto on the 4Runner. But it is amazing that CR gave Toyota a gimme on it cars with NO data. Yeah, that's a dispassionate assesment. /s

16 posted on 10/16/2007 10:42:10 AM PDT by Obadiah
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To: Slapshot68
I know three people with Scions and each of them has had a lot of problems with them.

There's one (van thingy) around here that has a bumper sticker in the window "Got Toast?" . Maybe it should say, "It's Toast!"..............

17 posted on 10/16/2007 10:42:50 AM PDT by Red Badger ( We don't have science, but we have consensus.......)
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To: Badeye

That’s the whole point - they can give a vehicle “below average” reliability marks, but because “average” is such a low failure rate, it is debatable whether they have sample sizes anywhere near large enough to determine with any accuracy where a vehicle lies....

And even if it is a solid black rating, horror of all horrors, it couls still be a VERY low problem rate....


18 posted on 10/16/2007 10:43:32 AM PDT by eraser2005
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To: HardStarboard

Yeah, and they also loved the VW Passat back in 2000 when I purchased one (based largely on CR’s recommendation). I haven’t bothered with CR since.


19 posted on 10/16/2007 10:43:33 AM PDT by harmodius
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To: gridlock
They have been bulletproof, thus far.

Tough neighborhood, eh?................

20 posted on 10/16/2007 10:44:15 AM PDT by Red Badger ( We don't have science, but we have consensus.......)
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To: eraser2005
I’ve always been suspect of Consumer Reports’s vehicle ratings. From what I’v see they rely on consumer’s feedback on cars not any scientific evidence.
21 posted on 10/16/2007 10:45:30 AM PDT by McGruff (If I can't have Cheney I guess Fred will have to do.)
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To: eraser2005
I had a mid 1970s Toyota SR-5 pickup. Despite the fact that I maintained it very poorly, it just refused to quit. It was an eyesore but one of the most dependable cars I ever owned. I told myself I''d drive it until the whells fell off. I gave up on that truck dying and wound up giving it away to a friend of mine who needed a running vehicle.

My 1990 Ford Ranger is the same way. It just keeps on getting me where I need to go with complete reliability.

22 posted on 10/16/2007 10:47:27 AM PDT by Drew68
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To: eraser2005
Also some good news for domestics... They now rate 93% of all Ford/Lincoln/Mercury models as average or better (and that is WITH statistical data to back them up)

Eraser,

Not only is Ford/Lincoln/Mercury in a dead heat in terms of reliability, darn near every they are building is 5 Star in crash testing, including the Mustang Convertible in roll-overs. Their weak link is fuel economy and they are addressing that.

The Ford and GM basing on the freep is getting so old....

Remember the Movie Apollo 13, and the line "Failure is not an Option"? Failure is not an option for Allan Mulally and by extension Ford. Anyone who bets against him, would still place a bet on Sonny Liston vs. some newcomer, this guy, what's his name, Muhammad Ali....

23 posted on 10/16/2007 10:55:30 AM PDT by taildragger
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To: eraser2005
It wasn't all that long ago that I was predicting a steep decline in Toyota's reliability, and in fact I suggested it might be time to sell any Toyota stock one might have in his/her portfolio.

This was based on one single indicator that I've been using to assess the future performance of an auto company's stock, and it hasn't failed me yet. Anyone who wants my "secret" (admittedly it will seem half-cocked at first) can Freep-mail me.

24 posted on 10/16/2007 10:55:32 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: eraser2005

Still, the worst Toyota is better than the best Chrysler...


25 posted on 10/16/2007 10:56:04 AM PDT by llevrok (Born a ham and never cured.)
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To: eraser2005

Still, the worst Toyota is better than the best Chrysler...


26 posted on 10/16/2007 10:56:20 AM PDT by llevrok (Born a ham and never cured.)
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To: HardStarboard
I wasn't thrilled with the 4Runner, either. It may have excelled in a lot of ways, but I had two basic complaints about it:

1. It seemed too heavy for the powertrain (at the time, I believe the largest engine offered on it was a small V-6).

2. I never liked the idea of building an SUV on a pickup truck chassis. Not enough leg room inside (especially in the back seat).

27 posted on 10/16/2007 10:57:39 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: Paradox

“he says that the Camry’s V-6 is the worst engine in Toyota’s line up”

Problems arose only when they weren’t serviced on schedule. If the oil and filter was changed on schedule, there was no problem. Toyota extended the warranty on these engines anyway.


28 posted on 10/16/2007 11:05:15 AM PDT by Kirkwood
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To: Drew68
I had a mid 1970s Toyota SR-5 pickup. Despite the fact that I maintained it very poorly, it just refused to quit. It was an eyesore but one of the most dependable cars I ever owned. I told myself I''d drive it until the whells fell off. I gave up on that truck dying and wound up giving it away to a friend of mine who needed a running vehicle. My 1990 Ford Ranger is the same way. It just keeps on getting me where I need to go with complete reliability.

Yep, I had a 1982 SR-5 and it ran and ran, I finally gave it away to my step son. I now have a 1994 Ford Ranger 4 wheel drive that has 166,000 miles on it and all I ever replaced were the spark plugs and a clutch at 125,000 miles. I think my daughter was the reason the clutch failed! It just keeps on running.

29 posted on 10/16/2007 11:23:50 AM PDT by calex59
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To: eraser2005

The worst cars I ever owned were early 90’s Fords. I bought a Toyota Corolla and the only thing that ever went wrong with that was a pulley. Now I drive a Honda and have no problems at about 200k.


30 posted on 10/16/2007 11:29:25 AM PDT by TheThinker (Foreign campaign contributions should be criminal. This is not democracy at work.)
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To: calex59

I have a 96 Honda Civic w/ 64K mi. The only problems I ever have
are those they find when I take it to Midas for oil changes.

Those problems magically disappear when I take it elsewhere.

MV


31 posted on 10/16/2007 11:31:17 AM PDT by madvlad ((Born in the south, raised around the globe and STILL republican))
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To: eraser2005
The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability

Funny... Scion is Toyota, Acura is Honday... thus leaving Subaru the only "other" in the list.

32 posted on 10/16/2007 11:32:10 AM PDT by TheBattman (I've got TWO QUESTIONS for you....)
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To: HardStarboard

Eh... CR does have some points - but using them to advise you on a capital purchase like a car, boat, or similar item is a mistake.

Remember, this is the same publication that actually *liked* and *recommended* the first generation Hyundai Excel, one of the worst cars ever sold in the US.

That said, I’m not really surprised on the two Toyota models they panned. The Toyota car V6 has been having oil gelling problems of late - but the same problem has been sporadically affecting all makers of late, including Mercedes, Ford, Chrysler and GM. It isn’t a very well understood phenomenon, and it’s been surprising some of the world’s best powertrain engineers.

The Toyota truck V8 problem was not as widespread as eraser would have us believe, but it certainly is a worthwhile thing to note on a survey; Toyota’s American supplier wasn’t paying attention and shipped a lot of defective cams to Toyota. The problem is a flaw in the casting for the camshaft. At this point, only about 20 trucks have had an actual failure related to this, but to their credit Toyota will be replacing the engine for free in case of camshaft failure.

Hey, Eraser, when’s Ford going to be replacing those defective 4.6s?


33 posted on 10/16/2007 11:35:16 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: TheBattman

Subarus, amusingly enough, is building Toyota Camries under contract from Toyota in their IN plant.


34 posted on 10/16/2007 11:35:48 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Paradox

And even Toyota’s “worst” engine is better than some other makes’ “best” engines in terms of reliability. Ford, I’m looking at you....


35 posted on 10/16/2007 11:38:40 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: eraser2005

I’ve got the best of two worlds: a reliable Honda Accord, built in Ohio!


36 posted on 10/16/2007 11:38:59 AM PDT by pogo101
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To: Alberta's Child

Until recently, most SUVs were built on pickup frames. It adds great strength and allows them to go offroad and not break. (Note that the FJ Cruiser, a Toyota unibody, is having body cracking problems when used offroad.)

That said, lack of legroom is not a function of whether it’s unibody or body-on-frame but of interior design. Case in point is my 90 Nissan Pathfinder - tons of room in the front; my 7’ tall basketball player friend fit inside just fine. Rear legroom is OK - if the front seaters aren’t basketball players and don’t have the seat back all the way. They did fix that later with the next generation of Pathfinder and XTerra.


37 posted on 10/16/2007 11:43:41 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: eraser2005

“Some rather damning admissions in here... that CR admits they gave Toyotas average or better ratings without any statistical data to back up their predictions....”

This was always epxlained to readers. Not a secret.


38 posted on 10/16/2007 11:47:31 AM PDT by gracesdad
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To: eraser2005

My husband recently bought a 2007 Ford 500. He loves it. He says it is his favorite car of all the ones he has owned.


39 posted on 10/16/2007 11:47:52 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: eraser2005
I think all automotive ratings and evaluations have to be taken with a grain of salt. Some years ago, many automotive writers were critical of Ford (and GM) for building V-6 engines using a 90 degree configuration instead of a 60 degree layout which is inherently better balanced. Ford and GM ramped up their V-6 engine production by designing them so they could be built on V-8 tooling lines.

All of the V-6 engines currently used by Ford in their passenger cars (3.0/3.5/4.0) are 60 degree designs. The Audi V-6, which draws rave reviews, happens to have a 90 degree layout.

40 posted on 10/16/2007 11:53:00 AM PDT by Ben Hecks
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To: Badeye
That said, they said the same thing about the Hummer H2 (poor reliability). I own a H2, and thats simply not the case at all. Its the most reliable vehicle I’ve ever owned.

But you understand that just because you didn't have any problems with your car doesn't mean that the line as a whole isn't reliable, right?

41 posted on 10/16/2007 11:55:48 AM PDT by Publius Valerius
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To: All

Buying ANY vehicle is a crapshoot, but with some companies it’s less of one. Sure, there are good Hummers out there but there are a bunch of lemons. The only person I know who owned a Hummer 2 ended up hating it because it was in the garage so often. There are a large number of good Camrys, but there are lemons as well.

So far, our two most reliable vehicles have been Camrys, with a Honda CRV coming in close behind. Our worst was by far was a Dodge Caravan (with a Renault and a Rabbit close behind). Nonetheless, I’m sure there are people who consider their Caravan one of their best vehicles and I know people who love their VWs.


42 posted on 10/16/2007 11:56:02 AM PDT by gracesdad
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To: Pining_4_TX

Wait until your transaxle ejects on that 500....


43 posted on 10/16/2007 11:58:10 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

Could you give me a little more info on that one?


44 posted on 10/16/2007 12:01:42 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Ben Hecks

Part of the problem is that they really were V8’s with two cylinders lopped off. Without the additional engineering needed to make a 90 degree V6 work properly, they didn’t do well.


45 posted on 10/16/2007 12:02:08 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Sure: The first 500 I test drove when they first came out literally scattered its transaxle all over the pavement with less than 50 miles on the car. The second one also was pretty pathetic.

I’ve been forced to rent 500s off and on since then, and they have about a 30% chance of having something wrong with the transaxle.


46 posted on 10/16/2007 12:03:45 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Slapshot68
Can you imagine meeting an 18 wheeler or a Hummer head on in one of those roller skates called a Scion.

Great gas millage bad looking coffin.

47 posted on 10/16/2007 12:06:57 PM PDT by OKIEDOC (Kalifornia, a red state wannabe. I don't take Ex Lax I just read the New York Times.)
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To: eraser2005

I just turned 30,000 miles since my previous post. Not one problem with my H2.

And thats the bottom line. I think you are correct in your assessment.


48 posted on 10/16/2007 12:07:06 PM PDT by Badeye (Free Willie!)
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To: 66-442hot
“How can this be? Toyota having “Q” issues?

Yep, going against the religion again!”

Blaspheme! The toileta worshipers will not be pleased with your sacrilegious comment.

49 posted on 10/16/2007 12:07:19 PM PDT by Proud2BeRight
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To: OKIEDOC

OK, then how about the rollerskate known as the Chevy Aveo? Or the Ford Aspire? Or, for that matter, a Ford Focus?


50 posted on 10/16/2007 12:08:46 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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