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Abortion isn't a religious issue (And it should not be a political issue says the author)
LA Times ^ | 4 November 2007 | Garry Wills

Posted on 11/04/2007 4:58:54 AM PST by shrinkermd

Evangelicals are adamant, but religion really has nothing to say about the issue

What makes opposition to abortion the issue it is for each of the GOP presidential candidates is the fact that it is the ultimate "wedge issue" -- it is nonnegotiable. The right-to-life people hold that it is as strong a point of religion as any can be. It is religious because the Sixth Commandment (or the Fifth by Catholic count) says, "Thou shalt not kill." For evangelical Christians, in general, abortion is murder. That is why what others think, what polls say, what looks practical does not matter for them. One must oppose murder, however much rancor or controversy may ensue.

But is abortion murder? Most people think not. Evangelicals may argue that most people in Germany thought it was all right to kill Jews. But the parallel is not valid. Killing Jews was killing persons. It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons. Not even evangelicals act as if it were. If so, a woman seeking an abortion would be the most culpable person. She is killing her own child. But the evangelical community does not call for her execution.

About 10% of evangelicals, according to polls, allow for abortion in the case of rape or incest. But the circumstances of conception should not change the nature of the thing conceived. If it is a human person, killing it is punishing it for something it had nothing to do with. We do not kill people because they had a criminal parent.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: abortion; garrywills; moralabsolutes; politics; prolife; religion
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To: shrinkermd
Dear LAT & G. WILLS...

What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" are you unable to understand?"

41 posted on 11/04/2007 6:14:12 AM PST by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: SittinYonder

Well, tell me why women obtaining an abortion are not prosecuted. There must be a reason.


42 posted on 11/04/2007 6:20:33 AM PST by shrinkermd
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To: HerrBlucher

For abortophiles the fetus is a “person” if the mother wants it, and not a “person” if she doesn’t want it. The personhood of the fetus is wholly dependent on the whims of the mother.<<

Unfortunately, you’ve got that right. But it isn’t just women who believe an unplanned pregnancy baby isn’t a person deserving of the right to life, men can feel the same way. I had a sociology course not too long ago where men and women were asked to name their “happiest” day and their “worst” day. One of the male respondents said his happiest day was when he and his wife found out they were having a baby. His worst day was when a previous girlfriend told him she was pregnant...and that’s how he worded it also. When he wanted the baby it was happy and it was “their” baby. When he and a previous girlfriend conceived a child suddenly “she” was pregnant and it was his worst day.

It was quite telling, and quite sad.


43 posted on 11/04/2007 6:31:23 AM PST by fleagle ( An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. -Winston Churchill)
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Bump


44 posted on 11/04/2007 6:40:01 AM PST by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: shrinkermd
The purely scientific answer to is a fetus a human being is - of cource it is. What else would it be?

Personhood is a pure social construct. Slaves weren't persons. In some societies Jews aren't persons. The march of progress in this country for 200 years has been to grant more and more human beings person hood. Except this particular class of human beings.

It is not demonstrable that fetuses is persons

45 posted on 11/04/2007 6:42:55 AM PST by DManA
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To: shrinkermd

Gary Wills - yet another Vatican II Catholic who has made a killing from doing his best to kill the Catholic faith. Can you believe this abortion devotee wrote a book praising the rosary???


46 posted on 11/04/2007 6:46:58 AM PST by madprof98 ("moritur et ridet" - salvianus)
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To: shrinkermd
Well, tell me why women obtaining an abortion are not prosecuted

Is this a joke? Are you justifying abortion because women aren't prosecuted for getting one?

I don't know the laws prior to Roe v Wade, whether a woman was legally culpable or not, but if a woman wasn't prosecuted for having an abortion and legally should have been, then the obvious answer is because police and prosecutors failed to do their job.

But a failure to prosecute, as I clearly stated, is no answer as to whether or not abortion is killing. A failure to prosecute, as could easily be inferred from my previous post, is simply a cultural decision that it is killing that we allow.

47 posted on 11/04/2007 6:48:27 AM PST by SittinYonder (Ic ■Št gehate, ■Št ic heonon nelle fleon fotes trym, ac wille fur­or gan)
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To: SittinYonder

It is no joke, and I am not justifying abortion. But the question remains, “Why were women seldom to never prosecuted for obtaining an abortion?” Not having an answer tells me you have not really examined your own thinking.


48 posted on 11/04/2007 6:51:56 AM PST by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd

The Islamists must love the West killing itself off. What need is there for having a WMD when the West already uses a more killing one.


49 posted on 11/04/2007 6:57:27 AM PST by ex-snook ("Above all things, truth beareth away the victory.")
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To: shrinkermd
It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons.

Foetus is latin. Wonder if the goober has ever checked what it means.

50 posted on 11/04/2007 6:57:41 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead)
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To: shrinkermd
The Left evades the real issue: is human life sacred? If it is, abortion matters. If it isn't, it doesn't matter what you think of abortion.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

51 posted on 11/04/2007 7:01:53 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: shrinkermd
Garry Wills is always distorted by his personal issues with the Catholic Church. He is a twisted guy and can't be followed with any confidence of arriving at a sane destination. Abortion is wrong not because of the 6th Commandment but because it violates natural law. Any honest person knows in his/her heart that abortion is wrong, even if he never heard of the Bible or Moses or Cristianity. It can only be rendered acceptable by an energetic act of self-deception.
52 posted on 11/04/2007 7:02:24 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: ari-freedom
The fact there is an exception for some abortions, does not confer legitimacy on abortion. One can accept the need for abortion to save the life of the mother and still remain pro-life. The Left does not care either about the life of the unborn child or the mother.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

53 posted on 11/04/2007 7:04:45 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: shrinkermd

Because folks are weak when it comes to holding women to account. Don’t women get less punishment than men for killing born persons? Also, the victims of abortion are much less visible than post-birth victims of non-abort murder. There’s no chalk outline.

Freegards


54 posted on 11/04/2007 7:06:15 AM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Hornitos
If the fetus is not special, why have human rights? If Man is just another type of animal, why the concern with his dignity? The Left talks of dignity but in reality it regards Man as just another type of beast, albeit with speech and some particular powers of reason.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

55 posted on 11/04/2007 7:09:12 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: shrinkermd

Well, the headline should be correct, but it’s not.

After all, to ignore clear scientific/biological data, and instead propose that the fetus only becomes a person at some arbitrarily chosen stage in its development — and even then, only if the mother desires to give birth — is to engage in some sort of mysticism, to be sure.


56 posted on 11/04/2007 7:09:20 AM PST by william clark (DH4WH08 - Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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To: shrinkermd

IT'S A BIRD, IT'S A PLANE, IT'S A BABY


57 posted on 11/04/2007 7:09:42 AM PST by ex-snook ("Above all things, truth beareth away the victory.")
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To: shrinkermd
I thought to try to wade through the article. I gave up when I got to this:

The universal mandate to preserve "human life" makes no sense. My hair is human life -- it is not canine hair, and it is living. It grows. When it grows too long, I have it cut. Is that aborting human life?

I was worried if I read much more, I would begin tearing my own hair out.

58 posted on 11/04/2007 7:10:24 AM PST by don-o (Do the RIGHT thing. Become a monthly donor. End Freepathons forever)
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To: N3WBI3
In my Latin/English dictionary, "fetus" means offspring. That should clear it up for the lib baby killers, if they were smart enough to learn the real, centuries old meaning of the word.
59 posted on 11/04/2007 7:12:55 AM PST by Paulus Invictus
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To: Sherman Logan
I don't see that as inconsistent. The very sacredness of Man, which the Left rejects, demands the death penalty against those violate that sacred status by wantonly taking a human life. To take the life of the murderer is to affirm just how special Man is in the eyes of God and his fellow human beings. That too is part of the traditional thinking about the difference between humanity and the rest of creation, because Man was created with a Divine Essence lacking in the beasts. As it was, he bears the stamp of God in his soul. To the Left, which rejects religion and the received understanding of human nature, all of this is hypocritical. Yet they fight hard for the rights of murderers but think the most helpless of creatures have no rights at all. One can well imagine they take the position they do because it is a reversal of the holiness of Man and after all what is a repudiation of it than embracing men who act like the beasts? If Man is not sacred, then what life we accept and reject becomes a matter of arbitrary preference, not bound by a set of universal moral principles.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

60 posted on 11/04/2007 7:20:14 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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