Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Crater From 1908 Russian Space Impact Found, Team Says (Tunguska)
National Geographic ^ | 11-7-2007 | Maria Cristina Valsecchi

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:31:07 PM PST by blam

Crater From 1908 Russian Space Impact Found, Team Says

Maria Cristina Valsecchi in Rome, Italy
for National Geographic News
November 7, 2007

Almost a century after a mysterious explosion in Russia flattened a huge swath of Siberian forest, scientists have found what they believe is a crater made by the cosmic object that made the blast.

The crater was discovered under a lake near the Podkamennaya Tunguska River in western Siberia, where the cataclysm, known as the Tunguska event, took place (see map).

On June 30, 1908, a ball of fire exploded about 6 miles (10 kilometers) above the ground in the sparsely populated region, scientists say. The blast released 15 megatons of energy—about a thousand times that of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima—and flattened 770 square miles (2,000 square kilometers) of forest.

Since then many teams of scientists have combed the site, but none was able to find any fragments of an object, like a rocky asteroid or a comet, that might have caused the event.

In their new study, a team of Italian scientists used acoustic imagery to investigate the bottom of Lake Cheko, about five miles (eight kilometers) north of the explosion's suspected epicenter.

"When our expedition [was at] Tunguska, we didn't have a clue that Lake Cheko might fill a crater," said Luca Gasperini, a geologist with the Marine Science Institute in Bologna who led the study.

"We searched its bottom looking for extraterrestrial particles trapped in the mud. We mapped the basin and took samples. As we examined the data, we couldn't believe what they were suggesting.

"The funnel-like shape of the basin and samples from its sedimentary deposits suggest that the lake fills an impact crater," Gasperini said.

A "Soft Crash"

The basin of Lake Cheko is not circular, deep, and steep like a typical impact crater, the scientists say.

Instead it's elongated and shallow, about 1,640 feet (500 meters) long with a maximum depth of only 165 feet (50 meters).

It also lacks the rim of debris usually found around typical impact craters, such as the Meteor Crater in Arizona.

Gasperini's team says that the basin's unusual shape is the result of a fragment thrown from the Tunguska explosion that plowed into the ground, leaving a long, trenchlike depression.

"We suggest that a 10-meter-wide [33-foot-wide] fragment of the object escaped the explosion and kept going in the same direction. It was relatively slow, about 1 kilometer a second [0.6 mile a second]," Gasperini said.

The lake is located along the most probable track of the cosmic body, he added, which likely made a "soft crash" in the marshy terrain.

"It splashed on the soft, swampy soil and melted the underlying permafrost layer, releasing CO2 [carbon dioxide], water vapor, and methane that broadened the hole, hence the shape and size of the basin, unusual for an impact crater.

"Our hypothesis is the only one that accounts for the funnel-like morphology of Lake Cheko's bottom," he added.

In a previous expedition, Russian scientists studied Lake Cheko and concluded that it had formed before 1908, indicating that it was not formed by the Tunguska event.

The team had measured sediments on the bottom of the lake and determined that the deposits were accumulating there at about 0.4 inch (1 centimeter) a year. This suggested that Lake Cheko was several centuries old.

But Gasperini's team argues that the older deposits found by the Russians were already there when the explosion took place.

"We found evidence that only the topmost, one-meter-deep [three-foot-deep] layer of debris actually came from the inflowing river," Gasperini said.

"[The] deeper sediments are deposits that predate 1908. They were the target over which the impact took place, so Lake Cheko is only one century old."

The team's findings are based on a 1999 expedition to Tunguska and appeared in the August issue of the journal Terra Nova.

Asteroid or Comet?

William Hartmann, senior scientist of the Planetary Science Institute in Tucson, Arizona, said the new findings are compelling but do not address all of the lingering questions about the event.

"It's an exciting result that might shed new light on the Tunguska explosion," he said. "Certainly it warrants new studies of the area.

"But it raises a question in my mind: If one large fragment hit the ground, we would normally expect thousands of smaller fragments also to hit the ground along the path, and many searches have failed to find such meteorite fragments. So, why no smaller pieces?"

Finding fragments from the explosion is considered key to determining what kind of object made the impact. An asteroid would probably leave some remains, while a comet might be annihilated in the blast, Hartmann said.

"Our crater hypothesis is consistent with both possibilities," Gasperini said.

"If the body was an asteroid, a surviving fragment may be buried beneath the lake. If it was a comet, its chemical signature should be found in the deepest layers of sediments."

Gasperini and his colleagues are planning to go back to Siberia next year to search for more, and perhaps more conclusive, clues to the century-old puzzle.

"We want to dig deeply in the bottom of the lake to definitively test our hypothesis and try to solve the Tunguska mystery," he stated.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bolide; catastrophism; crater; impact; russia; siberia; tunguska
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-64 next last

1 posted on 11/14/2007 8:31:10 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: blam
GGG & Catastrophism ping.


2 posted on 11/14/2007 8:32:39 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam

a really big

blam!


3 posted on 11/14/2007 8:33:12 PM PST by ken21 ( people die + you never hear from them again.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: KevinDavis

worthy of a space ping?


4 posted on 11/14/2007 8:35:47 PM PST by lesser_satan (READ MY LIPS: NO NEW RINOS | FRED THOMPSON/ DUNCAN HUNTER '08)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

This might interest you on one of your ping lists, though I see Blam is right on it.


5 posted on 11/14/2007 8:42:00 PM PST by Kevmo (We should withdraw from Iraq via Tehran. And Duncan Hunter is just the man to get that job done.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam

What about the theory of a mini-black hole? That would explain no crater.


6 posted on 11/14/2007 8:42:27 PM PST by canuck_conservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam

Amazing how fortunate it is that the event happened in one of the few places on Earth that there was no large population nor even habitation for this even to take place.

Seems to me that the Italian Scientists are flailing a bit on this though.


7 posted on 11/14/2007 8:44:18 PM PST by padre35 (Conservative in Exile/ Isaiah 3.3)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: canuck_conservative
What about the theory of a mini-black hole? That would explain no crater.

Watch it you'll get thrown off the radio.

Actual the theory for years has been that the thing exploded about a mile are more above ground, they say that is why the flash was seen in Britain and there was really no crater.

8 posted on 11/14/2007 8:52:40 PM PST by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: canuck_conservative
Personally, I've always thought comet, which would seem consistent with an above ground explosion and the flattening of such a huge swath of forest. The "crater" delineated by the lake might have taken the final central punch of momentum generated by the object, pushing atmosphere - and that much lithosphere - out of the way, as it were, as it's physical attributes had already melted.

Just a hunch, that I've always been drawn to.

9 posted on 11/14/2007 8:58:00 PM PST by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: canuck_conservative

But they do have a crater ... sort of ... the funnel shaped crater.


10 posted on 11/14/2007 8:58:53 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blam

Perhaps an incoming cankle from the planet Canklemos’. And check Hillary’s DNA - she may not be human!


11 posted on 11/14/2007 9:07:39 PM PST by willgolfforfood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: org.whodat

Britain and the Tunguska area are so far apart - with so much surface curvature in between - that an explosion even several miles above ground could not be seen by line-of-sight. They must have seen the item while it was still in the stratosphere, well before ground contact - so the black hole theory still works.


12 posted on 11/14/2007 9:09:51 PM PST by canuck_conservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: org.whodat
And Grog, Drakonian Invador from the Pleides, stull rests in suspended anioation iside his space vehicle's escape pod, awaiting release.
13 posted on 11/14/2007 9:12:03 PM PST by Candor7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baghdad_(1258))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: blam; Cyber Liberty; patton
Now, of course, the problem is that such a blast elsewhere resembles a terrorist nuclear blast.

Also a concern during the cold war - one (likely) comet/meteor impact over South Africa was found by satellites searching for nuclear blasts in the mid-80’s.

People still aren’t really sure if it was a South African nuke blast, an Israeli nuke blast supported by SA, or just an impact event.

14 posted on 11/14/2007 9:14:50 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Candor7

And Grog, Drakonian Invador from the Pleides, stull rests in suspended anioation iside his space vehicle’s escape pod, awaiting release of his spell-check distractionary. 8<)


15 posted on 11/14/2007 9:15:45 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: canuck_conservative; org.whodat
Times Of London reports from 1908.

“To the Editor of the Times.”

“Sir,--Struck with the unusual brightness of the heavens, the band of golfers staying here strolled towards the links at 11 o’clock last evening in order that they might obtain an uninterrupted view of the phenomenon. Looking northwards across the sea they found that the sky had the appearance of a dying sunset of exquisite beauty. This not only lasted but actually grew both in extent and intensity till 2:30 this morning, when driving clouds from the East obliterated the gorgeous colouring. I myself was aroused from sleep at 1:15, and so strong was the light at this hour that I could read a book by it in my chamber quite comfortably.
At 1:45 the whole sky, N. and N.-E., was a delicate salmon pink, and the birds began their matutinal song. No doubt others will have noticed this phenomenon, but as Brancaster holds an almost unique position in facing north to the sea, we who are staying here had the best possible view of it.

Yours faithfully,
Holcombe Ingleby.
Dormy House Club, Brancaster, July 1” (1908)

16 posted on 11/14/2007 9:19:07 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE

Didn’t the former white South African government insiders later admit that the 1977 double-flash WAS one of their atomic tests?


17 posted on 11/14/2007 9:20:42 PM PST by canuck_conservative (beer + pizza + cigarettes = Breakfast of Champions)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: blam

How big do they estimate this meteorite was?


18 posted on 11/14/2007 9:21:10 PM PST by Norman Bates
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Candor7
And Grog, Drakonian Invader from the Pleides, still rests in suspended animation inside his space vehicle's escape pod, awaiting release.

Nah, it's probably Kzanol, the Thrint, inside his slaver stasis field at the bottom of the lake. Best to let him stay there unless you want to make us all Ptaavs...

19 posted on 11/14/2007 9:29:36 PM PST by tarheelswamprat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: padre35
Amazing how fortunate it is that the event happened in one of the few places on Earth that there was no large population nor even habitation for this even to take place.

Statistically, it would be much more likely for something like this to happen over the ocean or an unpopulated part of the world than over an area with even a modest population. As many of us as there are, most of the world is still mostly empty....
20 posted on 11/14/2007 9:30:21 PM PST by newguy357
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: newguy357

Yup, most of the world’s population prefers to be crowded into rat-infested sh!tholes .... er, I mean cities ....


21 posted on 11/14/2007 9:34:01 PM PST by canuck_conservative (beer + pizza + cigarettes = Breakfast of Champions)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: blam

I still think Tesla’s Death Ray did this (Cue Darth Vader breathing)


22 posted on 11/14/2007 9:35:01 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: padre35
"Amazing how fortunate it is that the event happened in one of the few places on Earth that there was no large population nor even habitation for this even to take place."

Astronomers Clube & Napier say in their book, Cosmic Winter, that we can expect a Tunguska class event about every 100 years.

23 posted on 11/14/2007 9:41:59 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: blam

Wasn’t Napier one of the authors of The Cosmic Serpent?


24 posted on 11/14/2007 9:46:57 PM PST by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: aruanan
"Wasn’t Napier one of the authors of The Cosmic Serpent?"

Looks like it was Jeremy Narby

25 posted on 11/14/2007 9:52:11 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: blam

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286807,00.html


26 posted on 11/14/2007 9:53:13 PM PST by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Liberty Valance

Neat pictures, thanks.


27 posted on 11/14/2007 9:56:14 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo; blam

Thanks, both of you. :’)

A possible impact crater for the 1908 Tunguska Event
Terra Nova | 7/01/2007 | Terra Nova
Posted on 06/22/2007 2:46:00 PM EDT by Mike Darancette
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1854726/posts


28 posted on 11/14/2007 9:57:12 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Thursday, November 8, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: 75thOVI; AFPhys; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aristotleman; Avoiding_Sulla; BenLurkin; Berosus; ...
:') There has been a similar topic, but hey, that was four months ago, and these pings are infrequent...
 
Catastrophism
· join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post new topic ·

29 posted on 11/14/2007 9:58:52 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Thursday, November 8, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Different Cosmic Serpent. This one was by Clube & Napier in 1982.
30 posted on 11/14/2007 10:03:23 PM PST by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: aruanan; blam
As Blam noted, Narby has a book by that title, but Clube and Napier's opus (from 1982) was indeed as you noted.

The Cosmic Serpent The Cosmic Serpent
by Victor Clube
and Bill Napier
ISBN 0876633793
ISBN 057111816X
057111816X, used, ABE UK


31 posted on 11/14/2007 10:12:39 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Thursday, November 8, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: aruanan

Oh wow, I took too long, and looks like you got yet another ISBN version. :’)


32 posted on 11/14/2007 10:13:31 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Thursday, November 8, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: padre35
My first thought was that I recalled seeing early pictures of still standing, de-branched trees directly under the supposed epicenter of the blast with more and more trees blasted down all pointing away from the blast. That was one of the pieces of evidence that proved it was not an impact event. The Italian theory would not be effected by this evidence.

However, I cannot see how a body entering the atmosphere at orbital or even sub-orbital velocities and then producing a violent megaton equivalent blast could possibly send a 10 meter portion of itself to strike the earth at a remarkably far slower velocity than the main mass.

33 posted on 11/14/2007 10:26:45 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Candor7
And Grog...

Or until somebody drinks him to avoid rickets...

34 posted on 11/14/2007 10:30:26 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker

The silt evidence seems a bit muddled, if their theory held, they would find particles in the silt of their impact, and they haven’t found any.

Unless of course the Smoking Man actually has the particles and Mulder and Sculley are trying to find both.../s


35 posted on 11/14/2007 10:30:43 PM PST by padre35 (Conservative in Exile/ Isaiah 3.3)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Norman Bates
How big do they think this meteorite was.

A meteorite is the found on the ground residue of a meteor. The meteor does not become a meteorite until it rests on or in the ground. A little picky. I know. Sorry 'bout that. ;^)>

36 posted on 11/14/2007 10:39:58 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: blam
...a Tunguska like event every 100 years...

Thank God, it's only been 99 years since... Oh, oh!

37 posted on 11/14/2007 10:44:09 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: padre35; Swordmaker
It appears that they investigated on-site and dug samples, then went back home and processed things and images - and, after looking at the overhead pictures, then “discovered” the crater might be under the lake.

So, efforts going back (braving the tens of billions of mosquitoes again! - will likely be focused on the lake area, so after next year they might find residue under the lake sediments.


Imagine a “slushy” comet - not a solid single rock or iron mass like a meteor/asteroid remnant. Then, near impact, it builds up enough air pressure/shock wave in front of itself to slow, heat up, and blow itself to bits: so the natural result is a slowing of the mass: not an acceleration away from the original mass like you would see from an internal explosion.

Random shock waves would not create all equal masses of pieces - so one large piece could get pushed up and away from the original trajectory (assume most the comet mass blew up at altitude at some flat (not vertical) angle to earth). Then you would see some large masses go sideways and impact at slower speeds.

38 posted on 11/14/2007 10:51:20 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

Links from the wiki-wacky-pedia entry (there isn’t one on Clube):

http://www.arm.ac.uk/staff/billn.html
http://www.astrobiology.cf.ac.uk/staff.html
http://www.astrobiology.cf.ac.uk/MNPAPER.pdf

Clube quotes:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2212doom.htm
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/clube90.html

also:

http://discovermagazine.com/1992/jun/deathinjune69

[snip] In the early morning of June 30, 1908, a huge fireball exploded in the sky above Siberia with the force of a 20-megaton nuclear bomb, leveling 400 square miles of remote forest around the Tunguska River. The glow lit up the sky as far away as Western Europe. The Tunguska object, Clube says, was a 150-foot comet fragment—one of the Taurids. [end]


39 posted on 11/14/2007 10:51:44 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Thursday, November 8, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: blam

bump


40 posted on 11/14/2007 10:59:11 PM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Good explanation. Did you read the Fox News article and look at some of their evidence? It certainly needs looking into. It's possible that the lake may be the remnant of an earlier event, as unlikely as that may seem.

One problem with the "slushy" comet theory... We've so far driven by three comets and bashed one with a 634 pound chunk of copper and none of them were found to be "slushy." They are, apparently, just like the rocky asteroids we've visited and driven by... no slush.

41 posted on 11/14/2007 11:14:09 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker

Yes, thank you, I’m aware; I misspoke. And you misquoted me. We’re even then. ;^)


42 posted on 11/14/2007 11:33:17 PM PST by Norman Bates
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Norman Bates

OK. Just for that, I may stay in your motel the next time in the area.


43 posted on 11/14/2007 11:39:32 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
However, I cannot see how a body entering the atmosphere at orbital or even sub-orbital velocities and then producing a violent megaton equivalent blast could possibly send a 10 meter portion of itself to strike the earth at a remarkably far slower velocity than the main mass.

Um, retrorockets? And notice they report the main body threw off a smaller body. Escape pod? Xists 90 years too early?

44 posted on 11/14/2007 11:46:27 PM PST by bIlluminati (You can get more with a kind word and a Colt .45 than you can with a kind word alone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE

Fascinating stuff.


45 posted on 11/15/2007 1:44:19 AM PST by patton (cuiquam in sua arte credendum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
Or until somebody drinks him to avoid rickets...

Scurvy, not rickets.

46 posted on 11/15/2007 1:55:31 AM PST by jalisco555 ("The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history." Winston Churchill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: blam
The basin of Lake Cheko is not circular, deep, and steep like a typical impact crater, the scientists say.

Instead it's elongated and shallow, about 1,640 feet (500 meters) long with a maximum depth of only 165 feet (50 meters).

When meteors strike at highly supersonic speeds they always leave circular craters. This is why the Moon has only circular craters even though most impacts must have been at some angle not perpendicular to the surface at the time of impact. That this impact crater is elliptical is very interesting.

47 posted on 11/15/2007 2:19:50 AM PST by burzum (None shall see me, though my battlecry may give me away -Minsc)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: newguy357
As many of us as there are, most of the world is still mostly empty....

A point that is lost on most folks, especially the anthropogenic global warming believers and the folks who claim we're running out of oil.....

48 posted on 11/15/2007 4:10:20 AM PST by Thermalseeker (Thinking of voting Democrat? Wake up and smell the Socialism!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv; blam

It was a really interesting book. That’s why From Exodus to Arthur seemed so interesting to me.


49 posted on 11/15/2007 4:40:15 AM PST by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Candor7

NO doubt!


50 posted on 11/15/2007 7:29:40 AM PST by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-64 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson