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Texan a vigilante or brave law abider? ( Called 911 and ask for cops before burglars escaped....)
Los Angeles Times ^ | November 25, 2007 | Miguel Bustillo, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

Posted on 11/27/2007 6:15:36 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach

A 911 recording of a man who shot and killed two burglary suspects has stirred debate on whether he should be condemned or praised.

PASADENA, TEXAS -- When he saw two men pry into his neighbor's house with a crowbar one afternoon earlier this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.

But when police had not shown up by the time the suspects were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and killed them.

"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."

Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded could be heard on the 911 tape, followed by a warning -- "Move [and] you're dead" -- and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of whom had small-time criminal histories, died of their wounds.

The six-minute recording of Horn's anger, frustration and eagerness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national controversy. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.

"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to the Houston Chronicle.

"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter. "Justice was served, law or not."

As the debate rages on talk radio and cable-TV news shows, Horn remains free.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Texas; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: emergency911; justice
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 11/27/2007 6:15:40 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
You mess around with Texans, if you're a vagrant sonny, you'll find yourself on the receiving end of Texas justice. A smoking gun is still the law east of the Pecos.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

2 posted on 11/27/2007 6:17:36 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

praised


3 posted on 11/27/2007 6:17:59 PM PST by dynachrome (Immigration without assimilation means the death of this nation~Captainpaintball)
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To: NormsRevenge; Grampa Dave; SierraWasp; kellynla; BurbankKarl; Brad's Gramma; A CA Guy; ...

Heard the audio’s on KFI’s Ken and John show as I was cruising on the Socal Freeway toward home....two shotgun blasts and the deed was done......


4 posted on 11/27/2007 6:18:15 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
PASADENA, TEXAS —When he saw two men pry into his neighbor’s house with a crowbar one afternoon earlier this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.

But when police had not shown up by the time the suspects were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and killed them.

“I’m not going to let them get away with this,” Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: “Property’s not worth killing someone over. . .

5 posted on 11/27/2007 6:20:07 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Whatever else...the word will get out and criminals (robbers, thugs, etc.) will know not to visit his, or his neighbors house on pain of death. That's a good thing.

As to the 911 dispatcher's comment that Property is not worth killing for...excuse me? Anyone bent on taking your proerty is a mortal threat to your life, and must be considered so.

6 posted on 11/27/2007 6:20:07 PM PST by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head

You gotta hear the audio....looking for a link....


7 posted on 11/27/2007 6:21:53 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

He called the cops and since they didn’t respond immediately, as a citizen, he has the right to defend property and make citizens arrest.
It wasn’t his fault the criminals didn’t surrender and ran.

Give the man a medal!

Criminals need to be put on notice that breaking in and stealing anyones property makes them subject to a violent lifestyle and a not so friendly conclusion.

And it is naive for anyone to believe the cops are going to drop everything they are doing and come to a residential burglary, just because a neighbor called.


8 posted on 11/27/2007 6:22:05 PM PST by o_zarkman44 (No Bull in 08!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
He saved the taxpayers money while ridding society of scum. He can move next door to me.
9 posted on 11/27/2007 6:22:09 PM PST by lula ( Islam IS the Anti-Christ)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Justice Served, and an Atta Boy


10 posted on 11/27/2007 6:22:30 PM PST by no-to-illegals (God Bless Our Men and Women in Uniform, Our Heroes. And Vote For Mr. Duncan Hunter, America! TLWNW)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I believe if you look at Texas jurisprudence, the gentleman was well within the bounds of the law.

We need more people with the fortitude like this guy to do what is neccessary when confronted with a choice.

11 posted on 11/27/2007 6:24:39 PM PST by sirchtruth (No one has the RIGHT not to be offended...)
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To: Jeff Head

The dispatcher is a dispatcher. Not a cop, not a judge, not a lawyer.

Joe should have called them after the fact to take a report.


12 posted on 11/27/2007 6:24:53 PM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: goldstategop

Like Ron White, the comedian said...”Texas is not only in favor of the death penalty, Hell, they’re putting in an express lane”

Criminal justice does not belong in the hands of social workers.


13 posted on 11/27/2007 6:25:04 PM PST by o_zarkman44 (No Bull in 08!)
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To: Jeff Head
from the houston Chronicle:

911 tape traces deadly shootings by Pasadena man

*****************EXCERPT******************

Minutes before he shot and killed two burglary suspects, a Pasadena man ignored repeated orders from a police dispatcher not to go outside with a shotgun.

Police today identified the dead men as 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston.

On a 911 tape released Thursday, a dispatcher is heard asking Joe Horn to stay inside his home until police arrived. But Horn, who had called police about 2 p.m. Wednesday to report that he witnessed two men break into a neighbor's home, told the dispatcher he planned to "kill" the suspects.

"I'm not going to let them get away with it," said Horn, who reported being inside his home in the 7400 block of Timberline looking out a window. "I'm gonna shoot. I'm gonna shoot."

For approximately six minutes, the Pasadena police operator told Horn to remain in his home and repeatedly discouraged the 61-year-old man from taking his gun outside.

"Stay inside the house and don't go out there. OK?" the operator told Horn in calm tones. " ... I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting someone over this. OK?"

Charles Lambright, Horn's attorney, said Thursday that the audio recording suggests Horn was afraid for his own safety.

"Just because he went outside doesn't mean he went outside with the idea of shooting them," Lambright said. "All I can see is a concerned homeowner who was scared for his own safety and, if he was some kind of nutcase, I don't think he would have called 911. His intention was to get police out there."

Pasadena police said it would be up to a Harris County grand jury to decide if Horn committed a crime. Charges had not been filed Thursday and Horn was not taken into custody.

"Usually, things like this take a little while to be presented to us," said Assistant District Attorney Lynne Parsons. "We would want the officers to contact witnesses and collect evidence."

The owners of the home that was burglarized could not be reached for comment. On the audio recording, Horn tells the operator that he did not know them very well. But, he states that he was upset that the men appeared to be burglarizing a home in broad daylight.

'Not worth killing someone'

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect their own property to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.
14 posted on 11/27/2007 6:25:42 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: o_zarkman44

I agree for the most part, except for one thing. You said that “it wasn’t his fault the criminals didn’t surrender and ran”. If you’ve listed to the tape, you’ll know that he really didn’t give them any warning. He said “You move you’re dead” and the gunshots came immediately after that. There was no delay at all. I’m not saying he wasn’t justified legally in what he did, I just think that he went a little overboard in his eagerness to shoot these guys.


15 posted on 11/27/2007 6:26:17 PM PST by RightFighter
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil’s Dictionary


16 posted on 11/27/2007 6:27:12 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: no-to-illegals
From the Chronicle:

Police have not found the families of the dead men. One had identification indicating he was from Puerto Rico, the other had documentation indicating he may have been from Puerto Rico, Colombia or the Dominican Republic, Corbett said.

Both men were shot once at a range of less than 15 feet with a 12-gauge shotgun.

17 posted on 11/27/2007 6:28:25 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: o_zarkman44

My boss had his home burgled in Tx. They took guns, they took money,They took tools, they took the wifes lingerie.

He called the cops, the cops said “call your insurance agent”
They wouldn’t even come out to take a report.


18 posted on 11/27/2007 6:28:30 PM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Good Message sent by Mr. Joe Horn to any criminal so brazen as to do a crime, of this nature, during daylight. I still give the Man, Mr. Joe Horn, an AttaBoy. Brazen activity demands action. Mr. Horn did what he had to do to protect his neighborhood.


19 posted on 11/27/2007 6:32:52 PM PST by no-to-illegals (God Bless Our Men and Women in Uniform, Our Heroes. And Vote For Mr. Duncan Hunter, America! TLWNW)
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To: mylife

Just Damn!


20 posted on 11/27/2007 6:33:22 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: RightFighter
He said “You move you’re dead” and the gunshots came immediately after that. There was no delay at all. I’m not saying he wasn’t justified legally in what he did, I just think that he went a little overboard in his eagerness to shoot these guys.

Sounds to me like he meant exactly what he said. Anybody stoopid enough to disbelieve a Western man in that situation gets what he paid for.

Somebody moved.

21 posted on 11/27/2007 6:34:13 PM PST by roamer_1 (Vote for Frudy McRomsonbee -Turn red states purple in 08!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

A similar incident happened to my Cuz in Ohio.

I was there.
The Cops never did come out to take a report, and we had to insure the house was clear of criminals.

But boy! let me not wear a seatbelt in a 20 mph zone and BAM! $150 fine

“to protect and to serve” my eye!


22 posted on 11/27/2007 6:37:29 PM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: roamer_1

It also sounds like they were on Horn’s property at that point


23 posted on 11/27/2007 6:38:53 PM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: All; Jeff Head; dynachrome; goldstategop; o_zarkman44; lula
Shooting of theft suspects may test self-defense law

********************EXCERPT********************

Nov. 15, 2007, 9:58PM

By RUTH RENDON and PEGGY O'HARE

In a case legal experts say may "stretch the limits" of the state's self-defense laws, a Pasadena man shot and killed two suspected burglars during a confrontation as they attempted to flee his neighbor's property Wednesday afternoon.

In the minutes before the fatal shootings, Pasadena police said the man called 911 and reported that he had heard glass breaking next door and saw two men entering the home through a window. Still on the phone with police, the man, believed to be in his 70s, saw the suspects leaving from the back of the home.

"I'm getting my gun and going to stop them," the neighbor told the dispatcher during the 2 p.m. call, according to Vance Mitchell, a spokesman for Pasadena police. "The dispatcher said, 'No, stay inside the house; officers are on the way.'

"Then you hear him rack the shotgun. The next sound the dispatcher heard was a boom. Then there was silence for a couple of seconds and then another boom."

After the shotgun blasts, the telephone line went dead. But the neighbor called police again and told a dispatcher what he had done.

When police arrived moments later, they found two dead men in the 7400 block of Timberline Drive. One was across the street, and the other had collapsed two houses down behind a bank of mailboxes in the Village Grove East subdivision.

Up to the grand jury

********************snip********************

AUDIO AVAILABLE AT THIS LINK!!!

24 posted on 11/27/2007 6:38:55 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: RightFighter

I’m thinking that if I don’t hear a siren and the thugs are leaving and going to easily get away, that stopping them is doing the public a service.
A citizens arrest.
I heard the tape too.
He didn’t stutter when he said “Move, and your dead”.
Course, the immigrants probably didn’t know English.
But they still know right from wrong.

I’m thinking that if someone is pointing a shot gun at me, I am going to do anything they say without hesitation.


25 posted on 11/27/2007 6:40:12 PM PST by o_zarkman44 (No Bull in 08!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
They weren't killed for taking stuff from the neighbor's house.

They probably have insurance for that.

They were killed for invading the sanctity of the neighbor's home.

26 posted on 11/27/2007 6:42:20 PM PST by elkfersupper
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5538780
Audio there:


27 posted on 11/27/2007 6:42:47 PM PST by BGHater (Lead. The MSG for the 21st Century.)
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To: o_zarkman44
Course, the immigrants probably didn’t know English.

But you have to admit, they had the courtesy of some pretty powerful sign language...

28 posted on 11/27/2007 6:49:29 PM PST by roamer_1 (Vote for Frudy McRomsonbee -Turn red states purple in 08!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

So nothing new?? Same old story!


29 posted on 11/27/2007 6:51:16 PM PST by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: elkfersupper
Isn’t a burglar a form of terrorism?

The football player who was killed this week was also confronted by a burglar.
Anyone who blatantly breaks in to another's property with the intent to steal has to reasonably expect to engage in a violent act during the commission of the initial crime if discovered.

To break into a house during broad daylight is a blatant disregard of the law and an obvious challenge to authority.
Mr Horn met that challenge enthusiastically.

30 posted on 11/27/2007 6:52:40 PM PST by o_zarkman44 (No Bull in 08!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

This is the breakdown of our society. When the police don’t care or have the time to respond, we need to take it in our own hands.
Good job! Let me know if he has a defense fund set up


31 posted on 11/27/2007 6:53:22 PM PST by RocketJsqurl
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To: BGHater
Thanks....I want to get the text on here.....

******************************EXCERPT*******************

Dramatic 911 call from right before shooting released

By Kevin Quinn

(11/15/07 - KTRK/PASADENA, TX) - A dramatic 911 call from the Pasadena man who allegedly shot and killed two men accused of burglarizing his neighbor has been released. The dispatcher tried to talk him out of it.

At about 2pm Wednesday, Joe Horn called 911 from inside his Pasadena home. He says he saw two men break into his neighbor's house. Horn tells police that he is armed with a shotgun.

"Hurry up, man. Catch these guys, will ya? I ain't gonna let them go, I'm gonna be honest with ya," said Horn on the 911 call. "I'm not gonna let them go. I'm not gonna let them get away with this (expletive)."

Horn and the dispatcher spent more than seven minutes on the phone, much of that with the dispatcher trying to convince Horn not to go outside.

"I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot," said Horn.

"Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?" responded the dispatcher. "It's not worth shooting someone over this."

"I don't want to, but if I go out there to see what the hell is going on, what choice do I have?" said Horn.

"I don't want you to go out there. I asked if you could see anything out there," said the dispatcher.

Horn tells the dispatcher that he understands his rights and even makes reference to the September 1 expansion that gives homeowners greater protection from prosecution should they choose to confront someone breaking into their home.

Before he can be convinced otherwise, Horn tells police he sees the burglars coming out of his house.

"He's coming out of the window right now," said Horn to the 911 dispatcher. "I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window."

"Don't, don't , don't go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?" said the dispatcher.

"(Expletive), they just stole something," said Horn to the dispatcher. "I'm sorry. I ain't gonna let them get away with this. They got a bag of something. I'm doing it."

32 posted on 11/27/2007 6:54:12 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Remind me if I’m ever in Pasadena, TX to buy that guy a beer.


33 posted on 11/27/2007 6:54:58 PM PST by GOP_Raider (Television is all Tommy Westphall's fault, damn it!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

I’d want neighbors like this..


34 posted on 11/27/2007 6:58:18 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: GOP_Raider
Here's a map:


35 posted on 11/27/2007 6:59:19 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

There is an old joke almost like this:

An old man calls the police to report that his shed is being broken in to by burglars. The dispatcher says that there are no police available.

In frustration the man hangs up but then calls back a few minutes later and says: “Never mind about the burglars, I shot and killed both of them.”

Within minutes there were several squad cars on the scene who found a very much alive burglar in the process of trying to get away with the his loot.

The first cop said the to old man, “I thought you said you killed them?”

The old man responded, “I thought there weren’t any policemen available.”


36 posted on 11/27/2007 6:59:41 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: mylife
"He called the cops, the cops said “call your insurance agent” They wouldn’t even come out to take a report.

I'd really like to know some more details about this because it sounds wrong, especially since guns were among the stolen goods. I had two different break-ins during my 20 years in Houston and the police were extremely concerned and wrote reports, and there was no really valuable or dangerous items taken. And, if I recall correctly, my insurance company wanted the police report to confirm that there was a break-in.

37 posted on 11/27/2007 7:02:28 PM PST by JustaDumbBlonde
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To: mylife
He called the cops, the cops said “call your insurance agent”

They wouldn’t even come out to take a report.

Yeah, we had the cops come to a neighborhood meeting to discuss the numerous break ins we've experienced. They told us they don't bother to come out if you tell them the thief is gone. They fill out the forms over the phone.

38 posted on 11/27/2007 7:02:40 PM PST by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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To: o_zarkman44
"The football player who was killed this week was also confronted by a burglar."

As the details are investigated on that one, I think it will be more of a case of a thug-related killing, not a burglary.

39 posted on 11/27/2007 7:04:26 PM PST by JustaDumbBlonde
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

God bless the poor dear man. He did the right thing, but like all who are in that situation, he will always have to live with himself. He’s the sort I’d like to have as a neighbor, and would feel perfectly safe around.

When the police will not come, or cannot come immediately (as in a rural area), there is nothing else to be done except be your own law. Just because people have insurance on their belongings and home is no reason to stand back and let lawless illegal alien thieves steal everything of value in broad daylight. That is just an invitation to further burglary and, since they stole guns, murder in the commission of their crimes.

Mr. Horn is a hero, and he will always pay the price such men pay. God bless him.


40 posted on 11/27/2007 7:04:28 PM PST by Judith Anne (Thank you St. Jude for favors granted.)
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To: o_zarkman44
A citizens arrest.

Just remember not all states allow a citizen's arrest. North Carolina, for instance, has no such concept. Gomer was mistaken.

41 posted on 11/27/2007 7:05:29 PM PST by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
exan a vigilante or brave law abider?

alt PASADENA, TEXAS —When he saw two men pry into his neighbor’s house with a crowbar one afternoon earlier this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.

But when police had not shown up by the time the suspects were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and killed them.

“I’m not going to let them get away with this,” Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: “Property’s not worth killing someone over. . .

42 posted on 11/27/2007 7:06:50 PM PST by itsamelman (Announcing your plans is a good way to hear God laugh. - - Al Swearengen)
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To: JustaDumbBlonde

I don’t know what to tell ya. You got good service.

My mileage has varied.


43 posted on 11/27/2007 7:08:34 PM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Seems like the police think that property crimes aren’t even worth arresting someone for. Notice how quick they got there after the shooting.


44 posted on 11/27/2007 7:09:37 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Well its a work hazard you have to accept if you choose to commit burglaries. If you choose to be a carpenter, you get splinters sometimes. If you choose to be a welder, sometimes you get burned. If you choose to be a burglar, sometimes the neighbor comes out and blows your sorry butt away with a 12 gauge shotgun.

Just give the guy a medal and send him on the way.

45 posted on 11/27/2007 7:13:43 PM PST by GregoTX (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Not sure I see much difference between a culture that sanctions shotgunning people to death for minor property crimes and one that sanctions stoning them to death for minor sex crimes - they just overvalue different things.


46 posted on 11/27/2007 7:15:26 PM PST by M. Dodge Thomas (Opinion based on research by an eyewear firm, which surveyed 100 members of a speed dating club.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

There is no justice other than vigilantism.


47 posted on 11/27/2007 7:18:27 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: gitmo

When in doubt, check local laws after shooting.
That means you’re still alive.


48 posted on 11/27/2007 7:20:41 PM PST by o_zarkman44 (No Bull in 08!)
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To: Judith Anne
When the police will not come, or cannot come immediately (as in a rural area), there is nothing else to be done except be your own law.

I lived in Houston from 1980 to 1997-... Just wondering, if youre referring to this case, I never considered Pasa-get-down-dena to be a rural area. That neighborhood is not far from the Fairmont Parkway and Red Bluff Road, very close to San Jac College Central campus, and about 2 miles from beltway 8. My point being, that it's doubtful that the police could not get there faster because the area was in a remote location.

49 posted on 11/27/2007 7:21:46 PM PST by new cruelty
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

I agree with you. Many of the posters on this thread probably think they are Christians but are not.


50 posted on 11/27/2007 7:25:42 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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