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Historic split for U.S. Episcopals
Reuters ^ | December 8, 2007 | Adam Tanner

Posted on 12/08/2007 4:08:01 PM PST by Zakeet

FRESNO, California (Reuters) - An entire California diocese of the U.S. Episcopal Church voted to secede on Saturday in a historic split after years of disagreement over the church's expanding support for gay and women's rights.

Clergy and lay representatives of the Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin, based in Fresno in central California, voted to leave the church, which has been in turmoil since 2003 when U.S. Episcopalians consecrated their first openly gay bishop.

"We've seen a miracle here today," Bishop John-David Schofield said after the vote. "We are already outside the jurisdiction of the Episcopal Church."

The head of the U.S. Episcopal Church, Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, said the church had received word of the decision "with sadness."

"We deeply regret their unwillingness or inability to live within the historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness," she said in a statement.

There are about 2.4 million members of the Episcopal Church, the U.S. branch of the 77-million-member global Anglican Communion, as the worldwide church is called.

Delegates voted 173-22 for secession, far more than the two-thirds majority needed.

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: California
KEYWORDS: ecusa; episcopal; fresno; hastalavistagene; homosexualagenda; homosexualbishop; sanjoaquin; schism
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Bishop John-David Schofield (center) speaks to reporters after his diocese
voted to secede from the U.S. Episcopal Church in Fresno, California
December 8, 2007. An entire California diocese of the U.S. Episcopal
Church voted to secede on Saturday in a historic split following years of
disagreement over the church's expanding support for gay and women's rights.

1 posted on 12/08/2007 4:08:02 PM PST by Zakeet
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To: Zakeet

I find it amazing that the folks in California got fed up with the garbage. :)


2 posted on 12/08/2007 4:14:01 PM PST by Mark was here (Hard work never killed anyone, but why take the chance?)
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To: Zakeet
Hmmm. I haven’t heard of any homo related scandals involving Episcopalians, yet they allow homo priests.

OTH, the Catholic church does not promote homosexuality but has an ongoing problem with homo priests.

This is above my paygrade.

3 posted on 12/08/2007 4:14:44 PM PST by Jacquerie (Constitutional Law is too important to be left to lawyers.)
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To: sionnsar; Huber

Anglican ping


4 posted on 12/08/2007 4:15:19 PM PST by rabscuttle385 (This tagline intentionally left blank.)
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To: Zakeet
Additional threads from the Religion Forum from various sources:

Diocese breaks with Episcopal Church in rift over role of gays in the church

Breaking: Diocese of San Joaquin votes to leave Episcopal Church, Join Southern Cone

5 posted on 12/08/2007 4:18:10 PM PST by BlessedBeGod
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To: Zakeet
the church's expanding support for gay and women's rights.

Reuters wordsmiths at work again.....its not about gay and woman's rights. Its about sanctioning gay marriage & rostering gay pastors. As far as the women's rights reference goes - I don't see its connection to this dioceses opposition to the church's effort to eliminate any reference to God in the masculine in all literature.

6 posted on 12/08/2007 4:21:03 PM PST by Archie Bunker on steroids (Hillary Supporters ....... Fags and Hags)
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To: Jacquerie
Read this to clear up any confusion.
7 posted on 12/08/2007 4:21:08 PM PST by ECM (Government is a make-work program for lawyers.)
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To: Mark was here
I find it amazing that the folks in California got fed up with the garbage.

It would never happen in Coastal California. Inland California ( with certain exceptions) is still part of America. Those of us on the coast live under the domination of the lunatic fringe.

Two questions; does the Protestant Bible use to Book Of Leviticus? And if it does, isn't this issue spelled out there rather plainly?

8 posted on 12/08/2007 4:23:35 PM PST by InABunkerUnderSF ("Gun Control" is not about the guns. "Illegal Immigration" is not about the immigration)
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To: Zakeet
""We deeply regret their unwillingness or inability to live within the historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness,New Unitarian Secularism" she said in a statement.

Bishop Tinkerbell was unavailable for comment, as he was busy at a truck stop.

(..and the only reason I am trying to joke about it is so I do not vomit. This WAS my church, long ago, and I miss it.)

9 posted on 12/08/2007 4:26:34 PM PST by Gorzaloon
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To: Mark was here
I find it amazing that the folks in California got fed up with the garbage. :)

Everyone has their limits. Sounds like they reached theirs.

10 posted on 12/08/2007 4:29:19 PM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: InABunkerUnderSF
Two questions; does the Protestant Bible use to Book Of Leviticus? And if it does, isn't this issue spelled out there rather plainly?

Of course, both the King James and NEB did not expunge it!

Nor did they expunge the heavy admonition not to do so at the very end, either.

The argument I heard advanced (And I am not offering to argue, or anything) is that the Old Law was fulfilled. Fulfilled, maybe, but not deleted.

11 posted on 12/08/2007 4:30:23 PM PST by Gorzaloon
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To: Zakeet

Does this mean the church loses it’s property—buildings, etc.?


12 posted on 12/08/2007 4:31:46 PM PST by randog (What the...?!)
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To: Zakeet

An entire California diocese of the U.S. Episcopal Church voted to secede on Saturday in a historic split after years of disagreement over the church’s expanding support for gay and women’s rights.
__________________________________________________________

It is not a womens right to murder her unborn child.


13 posted on 12/08/2007 4:33:04 PM PST by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: Zakeet
disagreement over the church's expanding support for gay and women's rights

No, it is a disagreement about the authority of Scripture and Tradition and the redefinition of sin as not being sin.

14 posted on 12/08/2007 4:34:46 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: All

All of the churches, property and cathedrals that the Episcopal church manages to keep will not help them one iota to gain access to heaven.


15 posted on 12/08/2007 4:36:14 PM PST by bennowens
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To: Zakeet
"We deeply regret their unwillingness or inability to live within the historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness," she said in a statement.


16 posted on 12/08/2007 4:36:20 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: ECM
Thanks, although it is not really good to know that Protestant clergy have a homo problem similar to the Catholics.
17 posted on 12/08/2007 4:36:51 PM PST by Jacquerie (Government Schools - Madrassas of the Left.)
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To: Jacquerie
You have been misled by the media. What a surprise!

Think a minute. WHY would the liberal media want to attack the Episcopalians, who support every single liberal cause you ever heard of, including 'gay rights', New Age paganism, the UN, 'peace activism', etc. etc.?

On the other hand, WHY would the liberal media NOT want to attack the Catholic Church? It is the last large organized body opposing the homosexual agenda, abortion, lib/rad feminism, and other causes dear to the liberals' hearts.

There's your motive.

Here are the facts:

1. The Catholic problem is mostly in the past. The overwhelming majority of the incidents took place in the 60s and 70s, fewer in the 80s, almost none in the 90s and beyond. The Vatican (which has traditionally been reluctant to interfere within a bishop's jurisdiction, especially in the U.S.) got involved directly -- the worst offending bishops (with the exception of a couple who are well entrenched and are going to be difficult to dislodge) were removed or kicked upstairs. Most bishops also cleaned house -- there were two offenders in this diocese in the late 70s, and the diocese lowered the boom on them both. One was sent to a remote monastery where he died of a heart attack, one went to prison and was laicized. The Church is taking this very seriously - the problem is not "ongoing" as you state.

2. I used to be an Episcopalian, and I can tell you there is a serious problem with homosexual priests hitting on parishioners, especially underage ones. BOTH male and female. There have been some big insurance payouts.

But you will never hear a whisper from the liberal newsies about the actually ongoing problem in the Episcopal Church, while the Catholics have done a pretty thorough housecleaning and have called in an outside investigation firm to audit their efforts.

18 posted on 12/08/2007 4:37:18 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
It is not a womens right to murder her unborn child.

As a matter of fact, according to the United States Supreme Court, it is.

19 posted on 12/08/2007 4:37:51 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Jacquerie

I think the problem is the culture at large is rotting from within (since this sort of thing isn’t limited to just religious instituions, e.g. the epidemic of school teacher abuse as well.) We live in sad and desperate times.


20 posted on 12/08/2007 4:40:37 PM PST by ECM (Government is a make-work program for lawyers.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
I sit corrected. Click the link at post #7.
21 posted on 12/08/2007 4:41:44 PM PST by Jacquerie (Government Schools - Madrassas of the Left.)
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To: Jacquerie
Thanks, I did read that. It's sad that this is a problem in ANY denomination.

Wherever you have a church, you have sinners. All you can hope for is an institutional response that tries to engage in proactive prevention, as well as prompt removal and discipline of offenders.

I think that's what the Catholic Church has tried to do. We left the Episcopalians in 2003, and before we joined the Catholic Church I investigated this issue thoroughly, because like you I was very concerned by what I had read and heard.

22 posted on 12/08/2007 4:45:29 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Zakeet
Good for these principled people. This is a sign that a spark of life still exists in this denomination. If they settled for dialogue, all bets would be off.
23 posted on 12/08/2007 4:45:57 PM PST by WorkingClassFilth
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To: Mark was here

The apostates who have seized control of the Episcopal Church of the U.S.A (ECUSA)are Godless Communists. Their embrace of buggery and feminism are merely symptoms of a much larger and more serious rot that has infested the Church. To be sure, we do not want our Priests preying on Boy Scouts and young girls, but as a matter of faith, we refuse to accept secular humanism and this is what we have been told we must do. These people hate God, they hate the U.S. and they expect that the congregations of normal people should support and subsidize their beliefs and lifestyles.

Hoorah for this diocese. Those other dioceses, if given a free choice, would do likewise. And for those Methodists and Presbyterians who are watching all of this: beware, you are next.


24 posted on 12/08/2007 4:46:53 PM PST by centurion316 (Democrats - Supporting Al Qaida Worldwide)
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To: Zakeet

Gee, it’s starting to look as though I might be able to go back to an Episcopal church someday. Though I guess that even with secession, they will still be pretty liberal. But perhaps somewhere out there is an Episcopal church that isn’t too liberal. I can dream, can’t I?


25 posted on 12/08/2007 5:00:22 PM PST by Fairview ( Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.)
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To: centurion316

I recall my Granma being up set when the Presbyterians sent money to the Angela Davis defense fund. It is like the liberals in New York City were completely disconnected from the folks out in the country.


26 posted on 12/08/2007 5:13:48 PM PST by Mark was here (Hard work never killed anyone, but why take the chance?)
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To: Zakeet

Ya got queers, ya ain’t got church!


27 posted on 12/08/2007 5:17:09 PM PST by Waco
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To: Zakeet
"We deeply regret their unwillingness or inability to live within the historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness," she said in a statement.

And we deeply regret the Episcopal Church's decision to live outside Biblical teaching. Good for this brave diocese.

28 posted on 12/08/2007 5:18:38 PM PST by Colonel_Flagg ("No one asked you your opinion, Christopher." - Fred Thompson)
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To: Zakeet
"We deeply regret their unwillingness or inability to live within the historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness," she said in a statement.

Yeah, Bishop Schori, forget God's law and teachings. The "historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness", whatever that is, is much more important. /s

29 posted on 12/08/2007 5:22:31 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Jacquerie

There have been plenty of homo scandals and pedophilia in the Episcopal Church. It just hasn’t gotten the press of the Catholic Church, partly because TEC has moved more aggressively against these problems to limit their financial liabilities. I think there was just recently a scandal involving a priest in the Albany, N.Y. area, for example. The Bishop of Pennsylvania knew his brother, a priest, was a pedophile and never did anything about it. He was just removed from his office.


30 posted on 12/08/2007 5:26:09 PM PST by WashingtonSource
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To: InABunkerUnderSF; Mark was here

Leviticus is there and so is Romans.


31 posted on 12/08/2007 5:26:24 PM PST by Past Your Eyes (You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.)
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To: Zakeet

This really isn’t news. Episcopalians splintered some years ago over the ordination of an openly gay bishop. At the time, many of those Episcopalians aligned with the Anglican church.

I suppose that the only news value here is that it is CALIFORNIA Episcopalians severing ties over gay church issues.


32 posted on 12/08/2007 5:34:44 PM PST by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
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To: randog

As I understand it the property is held in the name of the diocese. That is why individual churches are being lost in the east back to the diocese.

One thing I have heard of but am unable to confirm is that the retirement system for priests are done at the national level. If so, those breaking away are putting their own financial welfare at risk. If true, we need to step up and support them.


33 posted on 12/08/2007 5:37:06 PM PST by Starwolf
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To: ECM

Back in the 70’s here, a Lutheran minister abused a kid. 25 years later the kid sued the church. He ended up with the keys to the church and the congregation disbanded.


34 posted on 12/08/2007 5:41:21 PM PST by DManA
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: randog; Starwolf

“Both sides are prepared for a protracted and expensive legal battle over church assets and other issues.”

....this is where the fight will come IMHO....we Presbyterians have has break-away churches also and technically the Presbytery owns the building, shares of stock and the minister’s retirement fund....


36 posted on 12/08/2007 5:47:22 PM PST by STONEWALLS
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To: InABunkerUnderSF

In red coastal county San Diego, 8 parishes in the Episcopal Diocese of San Diego left for the Anglican Comm.
There are other parishes they could also leave.


37 posted on 12/08/2007 5:47:39 PM PST by SoCalPol (Duncan Hunter '08 Tough on WOT & Illegals)
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To: InABunkerUnderSF

“Those of us on the coast live under the domination of the lunatic fringe.”

You are INCORRECTLY extrapolating that the entire coast is lunatic, like San Francisco area.

Factually four of the six most southern California counties voted Republican in 2004.

San Diego, Orange, Ventura and San Luis Obispo.


38 posted on 12/08/2007 5:56:10 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: squaddawg1983
What an insane country. You’d think from what Big Media pumps out that anything goes. People who buy it can (randomly) lose everything.

At the same time we plunge into libertine-ism we are imprisoned by out of control puritanism. Insanity.

39 posted on 12/08/2007 5:58:11 PM PST by DManA
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To: Zakeet

... this is about control....the controllers hate and fear secessionists because they can’t control them....what the Episcopal Church ought to say to the California diocese is “go in peace”....instead we’ll have a big fight that will cost both sides.......last time the churches split was in the 1850s over slavery....I expect they’ll all split again this time over homosexuality, abortion, gun control and any number of other P.C. causes.


40 posted on 12/08/2007 6:00:48 PM PST by STONEWALLS
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To: truth_seeker

Apologies. Thank God we still have a path to the sea.


41 posted on 12/08/2007 6:03:58 PM PST by InABunkerUnderSF ("Gun Control" is not about the guns. "Illegal Immigration" is not about the immigration)
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To: Zakeet
This is great news. Maybe there is hope for others. It is member churches of the National Council of Churches who have become hijacked by liberals/Democrat/Socialists/Communists.

• African Methodist Episcopal Church
• The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
• Alliance of Baptists
• American Baptist Churches in the USA
• Diocese of the Armenian Church of America
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
• Church of the Brethren
• The Coptic Orthodox Church in North America
• The Episcopal Church
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Friends United Meeting
• Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
• Hungarian Reformed Church in America
• International Council of Community Churches
• Korean Presbyterian Church in America
• Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
• Mar Thoma Church
• Moravian Church in America Northern Province and Southern Province
• National Baptist Convention of America
• National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc.
• National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
• Orthodox Church in America
• Patriarchal Parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church in the USA
• Philadelphia Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends
• Polish National Catholic Church of America
• Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
• Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc.
• Reformed Church in America
• Serbian Orthodox Church in the U.S.A. and Canada
• The Swedenborgian Church
• Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
• Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
• United Church of Christ
• The United Methodist Church •

42 posted on 12/08/2007 6:09:55 PM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Mark was here
I find it amazing that the folks in California got fed up with the garbage.

Yes, it is surprising that this happened in California. But I think this is something that should have happened long ago. But I do not expect the national church to let this diocese go without a fight. I look for legal action soon. Still, I think this diocese probably has its lawyers all in line, ready to hit the ground running.

43 posted on 12/08/2007 6:12:39 PM PST by stripes1776 ("I will not be persuaded that any good can come from Arabia" --Petrarca)
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To: AnAmericanMother

I have heard nothing of the kind about the Episcopal priests. Do you have any actual documentation.

There was one scandal in our parish about 30 years ago but it involved the priest (male) and the choir director (female).

What a cliche, but, hey, it happens.


44 posted on 12/08/2007 6:14:18 PM PST by altura (Go, Fred!)
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To: Mark was here
I find it amazing that the folks in California got fed up with the garbage. :)

Not the liberal enclaves. This happened in my county, where folks are sane.

45 posted on 12/08/2007 6:15:15 PM PST by AndyTheBear (Disastrous social experimentation is the opiate of elitist snobs.)
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To: SuziQ

I left the Episcopal church shortly after this laughable excuse for a Bishop was elected. I guess I must be gullible though because I was a member for quite a few years before I found out that our Rector had a “partner”. I suspected that he was gay but did not know about his “arrangement”. About 1/4 of our congregation is gay. I overlooked it for as long as I could but no more. I have been taking Catholic instruction but am not quite ready to take that leap either. I am in limbo. Hope I don’t die while I’m there.


46 posted on 12/08/2007 6:15:22 PM PST by wayoverthehill
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To: Zakeet

“We deeply regret their unwillingness or inability to live within the historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness...”

I may be confused, but I thought it was the half who ordained the gay priest that had broken with tradition.


47 posted on 12/08/2007 6:23:10 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: Zakeet
the historical Anglican understanding of comprehensiveness

What does that even mean?!

48 posted on 12/08/2007 6:24:44 PM PST by SandyInSeattle (Some people are like slinkys, the idea of them tumbling down a flight of stairs makes you smile.)
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To: DustyMoment
At the time, many of those Episcopalians aligned with the Anglican church.

The Episcopal Church is the official Anglican church in America and part of the world-wide Anglican Communion. That's the problem. There are scores of small groups that have splintered off since back in the 1970s, all calling themselves Anglican, but all of them independent from the Anglican Communion. There are now some Episcopal congregations who have aligned themselves with the official Anglican churches in other parts of the world, such as Africa or South America. The San Joaquin Diocese is the first to this as a whole. This is a very big mess among American Anglicans. But then, welcome to life.

49 posted on 12/08/2007 6:26:22 PM PST by stripes1776 ("I will not be persuaded that any good can come from Arabia" --Petrarca)
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To: Jacquerie

Also, except for the occaisional woman seducing a young boy, you don’t hear anything about teachers seducing children. It happens all the time. I would be willing to be there are far more teachers hitting on children than ever happened in the Catholic hierarchy.

If fact, I remember when I was in high school one of the male teachers was “encouraged to retire early”.


50 posted on 12/08/2007 6:47:21 PM PST by I still care ("Remember... for it is the doom of men that they forget" - Merlin, from Excalibur)
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