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Colorado Heroine May Have Been Legally Prevented from Using Beretta as Security Guard
Vanity | 16 December, 2007 | Marktwain

Posted on 12/16/2007 10:43:41 AM PST by marktwain

Jeanne Assam, the heroine of the New Life Church shooting in Colorado Springs, would likely have been unable to carry the Beretta that she stopped the shooting with if she had been a licensed security guard.

An AP article published on 12 December noted that licensed security guards in Colorado Springs are restricted to the use of revolvers.

As Jeanne Assam was a volunteer parishioner who was performing security guard duties because the church did not want to hire “mercenaries”, she was almost certainly not affected by the regulations, which only apply to government regulated security guards.

Fortunately, her lack of official status with the state and city allowed her to carry a firearm with sufficient firepower to accomplish the necessary task.

Jeannette had to fire 10 rounds to keep her fellow parishoners safe.


TOPICS: US: Colorado; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: assam; banglist; beretta; churchshooting; gun; gunporn; newlifechurch
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To: Little Bill

“I Love my 2 1/8” S&W 640 a wrist breaker, I am old.”

It will sting a good bit without gloves, but is certainly manageable.


101 posted on 12/16/2007 2:53:36 PM PST by marktwain
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To: XeniaSt
“That’s actually not true.”

“Try it at night”

Actually, you are both right. It doesn’t depend on the gun as much as it depends on the ammo. Ammo with flash suppressant powder doesn’t have much flash, even from a short barreled .357.

I’ve shot Corbon .357 at night, all you get is a dull orange ball about the size of a grapefruit.

If the ammo does not have flash suppressant powder, however, a .357 at night can blind you like a flashbulb!

Compensators direct more of the flash upward, rather than out, so an intensely flashing round with blind you more than with a non-compensated barrel.

If the powder is flash suppressed, however, it won’t make a lot of difference.

102 posted on 12/16/2007 2:58:45 PM PST by marktwain
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To: Myrddin
That’s a good theory. It makes sense, up to a point. When you get into 454 casull power levels, you don’t have to be very accurate. In fact, I would argue that a single 454 to the vest is going to put him down no matter what. I don’t care if the round penetrates the vest or not. But you’ll never see me lugging around a 454 day in and day out. Also, it’s only 5 shots.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not being critical of the 9mm luger. It’s the caliber I choose for concealed carry. In fact, I think it’s the best choice. For several reasons. First off, it’s cheap and easy to find. It’s small enough they can make very small handguns chambered for it for concealed carry. 40 S&W is quite a bit better than 9mm, but it is barely better than 9mm +P. I don’t think it’s worth the upgrade.

And like I stated in an earlier post, 9mm luger +P actually outperforms 357mag in very short barrels.

103 posted on 12/16/2007 2:59:16 PM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: Centurion2000

Shoot until they drop.


104 posted on 12/16/2007 2:59:47 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: CowboyConservative
"Sounds to me like she has no business with any firearm....She was a danger to all the innocent people around her."

Well, Cowpoke, as usual you have nailed it!!!.

Far better that no marginally proficient CCW holders were present!!!

One shooter killing people was more than enough.

Hell, if three or four other CCW's opened up, there mighta been NO-ONE left standing.

105 posted on 12/16/2007 3:02:36 PM PST by diogenes ghost
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To: marktwain

My daughter had problems with it with .38’s, I use Hydroshocks, .357. It is my primary self defense gun, small, easily carried, and if you can’t hit them the muzzle flash will scare them off.


106 posted on 12/16/2007 3:04:19 PM PST by Little Bill (Welcome to the Newly Socialist State of New Hampshire)
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To: marktwain
The facts in the article are from various news sources on the web, and can be checked out pretty easily. Much of the MSM is referring to Jeanne as a "security guard", inferring that she was licensed by the state.

The word is "implying". It's the one who is reading or hearing something that does the inferring. Furthermore, you can infer something without its ever having been implied.
107 posted on 12/16/2007 3:05:02 PM PST by aruanan
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To: XeniaSt

I practice at an underground range where I can dim the lights. The 31C doesn’t present any special problem. It depends mostly on the load and powder. My 6 inch 44 is like a flashgun going off with that UMC yellow box 180gr stuff!


108 posted on 12/16/2007 3:13:35 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: mamelukesabre
With long barrels, a 357mag outperforms a 357sig. With short barrels, the 357sig is the winner.

Interesting, since FWIU the cylinder is not counted in the barrel length of a .357mag revolver, but the chamber is counted in the barrel length of a .357sig auto.

109 posted on 12/16/2007 3:14:37 PM PST by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: Walkingfeather

That’s what took out Sean Taylor.


110 posted on 12/16/2007 3:16:29 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: marktwain

Exactly! And even tight revolvers can put a good flash out the gap between the forcing cone and cylinder, but that and the compensated blast is small compared to what comes out the front. You can sometimes find out which loads are going to be low flash by checking comments on line, but if you’re serious about it you need to test them in your gun in low light to make sure they’ll work for you.

Is the Corbon you’re talking about the stuff they recommend for snubbies?


111 posted on 12/16/2007 3:25:09 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: mamelukesabre
But you’ll never see me lugging around a 454 day in and day out. Also, it’s only 5 shots.

Nope, Rugers 454s are 6 shooters.

112 posted on 12/16/2007 3:25:26 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: claudiustg

Ya wanna talk about muzzle flash, fire the Blackhawk 30 carbine. The flash goes out 18 inches!


113 posted on 12/16/2007 3:29:21 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: t1b8zs
I am a California licensed Security Guard and have carried both a revolver and a semi-auto.
114 posted on 12/16/2007 3:30:02 PM PST by NY Attitude (You are responsible for your safety until the arrival of Law Enforcement Officers!)
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To: marktwain

If she’d have been using .357 Mag she wouldn’t have needed 10 rounds anyway.


115 posted on 12/16/2007 3:35:09 PM PST by Doohickey (Giuliani: Brokeback Republican)
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To: Hazcat

I can imagine. I used to have TC with a 14” 30-30 barrel. I didn’t reload so I used standard ammo in it.


116 posted on 12/16/2007 3:37:38 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: claudiustg

WOW, bet that was a fun way to start a camp fire! :)


117 posted on 12/16/2007 3:39:48 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: aruanan

“The word is “implying”. It’s the one who is reading or hearing something that does the inferring. Furthermore, you can infer something without its ever having been implied.”

You are absolutely correct. I should have used “implying”.


118 posted on 12/16/2007 3:42:17 PM PST by marktwain
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To: claudiustg; marktwain
Is the Corbon you’re talking about the stuff they recommend for snubbies?

Corbon make ammo for all makes and models.
Especially for defensive use

However they make a very nice
110g .38 Spl +p 1200fps using the DPX bullet.

I use it in my S&W 642CT carry


119 posted on 12/16/2007 4:11:41 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

But if you REALLY want to stop ‘zombies’ with a .38 snubby ya gotta use Buffalo Bore ammo http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl


120 posted on 12/16/2007 4:19:47 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: Hazcat
Corbon .38 Special 110-gr. DPX Ammunition

121 posted on 12/16/2007 4:36:29 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

My post was somewhat of a joke BUT I have found that the CorBons do not work as advertised in my P3AT. Zero expansion.

I use Silver Tips as that is what my personal testing has shown to be best penetrating and expanding. Now that Buffalo Bore is making .380 I am planning on giving them a try.

I already use their Heavy 45LC loads for hunting.


122 posted on 12/16/2007 4:41:50 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: marktwain

The article explains two things.
First, her Beretta is most likely in 9mm, a lethal round, but it is known for it’s insufficient stopping power.
Second, that the State of Colorado is run by a bunch of nannies who are afraid that armed guards might actually be armed.


123 posted on 12/16/2007 4:48:17 PM PST by Steamburg (Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: fella

Ping


124 posted on 12/16/2007 4:50:58 PM PST by Steamburg (Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: XeniaSt

Not part of the CRS (Colorado Revised Statutes)= It looks like a local, city or county ordnance.


125 posted on 12/16/2007 4:53:42 PM PST by Steamburg (Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: Steamburg; marktwain
Second, that the State of Colorado is run by a bunch of nannies who are afraid that armed guards might actually be armed.

What is being discussed in the article is a CITY ordinance for the city of Colorado Springs.

There is no state law covering the topic.


126 posted on 12/16/2007 4:54:51 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Luke Skyfreeper

Unless you are intending to run over him with an Abrams. Then 12 fps. is quite effective if he is only about 6 feet away.


127 posted on 12/16/2007 5:23:03 PM PST by Steamburg (Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: claudiustg

Isn’t that “shoot till they stop (moving) or start decomposing”.


128 posted on 12/16/2007 5:25:10 PM PST by Steamburg (Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: XeniaSt

Sorry, I should have been more clear, I did state that the restriction was a City or County Ordinance, but I also stated that I thought that Colorado Government had become a Nanny State. Those statements should probably not have appeared together. I still believe that the State and its subdivisions are moving rapidly toward an over regulated system designed to make California Transplants feel more at home.


129 posted on 12/16/2007 5:34:18 PM PST by Steamburg (Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: Deo volente

I bought a 92FS for my son. Best gun I ever bought. I’d target shoot against any pistol with it-ANY pistol.


130 posted on 12/16/2007 5:35:47 PM PST by mozarky2 (Ya never stand so tall as when ya stoop to stomp a statist!)
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To: CowboyConservative

It seems that practicing at a range is way different than being in a situation where someone’s shooting at you. And from what I read, she was approaching the shooter while firing.

I’ve never been in a situation where my life was in danger while shooting at a target. However, I have participated in shooting sports where stress is involved, specifically bowling pin and USPSA competitions. In some of those USPSA matches, there were somewhat stressful situations and in many cases, we had to engage targets while we were moving. We used to joke that one of our range masters was planning to start a match by hitting us with an electrical cattle prod. I understand how difficult it is to hit your target while under stress. And it’s even more difficult to do so while you’re moving. And, as I said, I did this knowing that I was in a controlled, safe environment.

And it’s a known fact that the vast majority of “well trained” people in her situation fire far more rounds than actually hit the target. It’s unfortunate, but true. Of course, I’m talking about both military and law enforcement here.

Mark


131 posted on 12/16/2007 5:36:38 PM PST by MarkL
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To: XeniaSt
I sure would not want to fire a compensated pistol in dim light.

You would be blinded by the flash.

That hasn't been my experience shooting at dimly lit ranges... Maybe it depends more on the powder and load used. But I've shot pistols with compensators for many years on relatively dark ranges, where the only light down range was a spotlight on the target, and it wasn't all that bright.

Mark

132 posted on 12/16/2007 5:42:33 PM PST by MarkL
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To: CowboyConservative

So how many gunfights have you won, Cowboy?


133 posted on 12/16/2007 6:00:02 PM PST by Nachoman (My guns and my ammo, they comfort me.)
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To: Steamburg
The city ordinance may have been put in place to provide
CO Sps Police with after hours work

134 posted on 12/16/2007 6:00:31 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Myrddin
I agree with the previous poster with respect to an S&W 686+ with 7 rounds. Seven rounds of .357 magnum from a 686+ would likely have been equally effective. We don't know enough from the article to say whether the Beretta was 9mm or 40 S&W. Apparently 10 rounds did the job.

True, however most states which have a legal requirement for liscenced security personnel to be armed with a revolver further specify that said revolver be no more powerful than a .38 Special, which is totally inadequate. (When I went through training for the Commonwealth of Virginia as a security officer, this was the case, and I suspect Colorado's statutes read similarly, if not identically.)

the infowarrior

135 posted on 12/16/2007 6:16:23 PM PST by infowarrior
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To: Steamburg
Unless you are intending to run over him with an Abrams. Then 12 fps. is quite effective if he is only about 6 feet away.

Yes, highly effective. Since an Abrams weighs at least 60 tons, it makes for a really good impact.

The down side is that an Abrams is rather large to be a good weapon for CCW.

136 posted on 12/16/2007 6:59:09 PM PST by Luke Skyfreeper
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To: Steamburg
Isn’t that “shoot till they stop (moving) or start decomposing”.

Doesn't emptying the magazine into attacker #1 mean that one will be unarmed against attacker #2?

137 posted on 12/16/2007 7:07:58 PM PST by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: marktwain

The Lord protected her in more ways than one.


138 posted on 12/16/2007 7:15:15 PM PST by pray4liberty (The Truth sinks people whose only recourse is lies.)
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To: aruanan
The word is "implying". It's the one who is reading or hearing something that does the inferring. Furthermore, you can infer something without its ever having been implied.

Absolutely correct. My wife infers things that I never implied all the time. I've often used the old Barry Farber line "Please do not infer what I did not imply.

139 posted on 12/16/2007 7:23:16 PM PST by BlueMondaySkipper (If liberals were merely stupid then the laws of probability would dictate that at least some of thie)
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To: BlueMondaySkipper
I've often used the old Barry Farber line "Please do not infer what I did not imply.

That's a good one. So, other women do that, too?
140 posted on 12/16/2007 7:31:45 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Luke Skyfreeper
Tell me more about this upper leg shot.

The femoral artery runs up the inside of the thigh. It carries lots of blood. Open it and you have a high probability of a fast bleed out.

141 posted on 12/16/2007 8:01:35 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: 2ndClassCitizen
Jeanne Assam was definitely focused on the objective.
142 posted on 12/16/2007 8:03:07 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: mamelukesabre
My "carry" for hiking around the mountains south of Pocatello is an S&W 629 4" loaded with PMC 240 gr JHP. The Kramer holster carries it just fine and I can shoot that round accurately even with one hand. I definitely have to keep two hands on the Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull 7.5" barrel when loaded with Hornady 300 gr @ 1500 fps. That round slaps your palms like a baseball bat.

I do have a Glock 23C (40 S&W). For rapid fire engagement, it is probably my best firearm for a quick follow up shot. The comp limits the muzzle rise. It cycles best with 165 gr ammo.

143 posted on 12/16/2007 8:08:25 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: infowarrior
I'm not surprised. That's an issue I won't ever encounter. I'm only going to be armed as a private citizen with the carry of my choice.
144 posted on 12/16/2007 8:09:44 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Steamburg

It’s shop until you drop.
Shoot until they drop.

Or maybe Christmas has warped my brain.


145 posted on 12/16/2007 8:35:58 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: Myrddin

I forgot to say what I’m shooting at the present.

S&W 29 6” 44 Mag: Federal 300gr Hardcast
S&W 686+ 4” 357 Mag: Federal 180gr Hardcast or Federal 125gr SJHP
Glock 31C 357 SIG: Winchester Ranger 125gr
SIG Sauer P239 9mm: Federal HST 124gr


146 posted on 12/16/2007 8:49:12 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: claudiustg
All of those rounds look pretty effective for the given firearm. I've limited my 629 to 240 gr rounds as some of my buddies managed to damage their S&W 44 mag revolvers with 300 gr ammo. I leave the heavier rounds to my Ruger revolvers. They are beefy enough to handle the heavy rounds at the expense of a quality S&W trigger. Even the Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull is not invincible. I rented one in at the range in Oceanside, CA that had been fired with 300 gr Hornady so often that it ceased to operate correctly. My "plinking" round in that firearm is a 200 gr plated FN over 37 gr of W296. That is very similar to the preferred round in the S&W 460 Magnum. Lots of zip with less hammering of the firearm. I'm in the market for a 5" S&W 460 Mag revolver. I have the 10.5" Hunter version. It's nice, but not terribly conducive to carry in a holster. The 5" 460 will be carried in favor of the 629 in the future.
147 posted on 12/16/2007 8:58:57 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin

As long as your 629 is a -3 or higher you really shouldn’t have a problem with “shooting it loose”.


148 posted on 12/16/2007 9:17:39 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: Hazcat
As long as your 629 is a -3 or higher you really shouldn’t have a problem with “shooting it loose”.

I'll have a look next time I drag it out for a range run. I also have the 6 1/2" PP model. Last time I shot that one, a small fragment zipped through the tip of my left ear. The stinging and sticky feel of blood all over my ear was completely unexpected. I had to open the action one handed to keep the blood off the firearm. Fortunately, my wife was in the lane next to me. She watched my revolver while I headed off to the men's room to deal with the mess. That kind of "oops" is a harsh reminder of the value of good shooting glasses and hearing protection that covers your ears instead of just using ear plugs.

149 posted on 12/16/2007 9:45:02 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin

I don’t shoot much of the hardcast; they’re for bears, which we have in great numbers around here. My 29 is one of the last of the regular production blued ones a 29-6. I wouldn’t mind having a .454 to shoot, but I probably wouldn’t carry anything larger than the 44.


150 posted on 12/16/2007 9:46:44 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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