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Colorado Heroine May Have Been Legally Prevented from Using Beretta as Security Guard
Vanity | 16 December, 2007 | Marktwain

Posted on 12/16/2007 10:43:41 AM PST by marktwain

Jeanne Assam, the heroine of the New Life Church shooting in Colorado Springs, would likely have been unable to carry the Beretta that she stopped the shooting with if she had been a licensed security guard.

An AP article published on 12 December noted that licensed security guards in Colorado Springs are restricted to the use of revolvers.

As Jeanne Assam was a volunteer parishioner who was performing security guard duties because the church did not want to hire “mercenaries”, she was almost certainly not affected by the regulations, which only apply to government regulated security guards.

Fortunately, her lack of official status with the state and city allowed her to carry a firearm with sufficient firepower to accomplish the necessary task.

Jeannette had to fire 10 rounds to keep her fellow parishoners safe.


TOPICS: US: Colorado; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: assam; banglist; beretta; churchshooting; gun; gunporn; newlifechurch
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To: marktwain

Femural artery shot is as good as a chest wound, a nice bleeder.


51 posted on 12/16/2007 11:44:27 AM PST by Walkingfeather (u)
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To: livius
“Grammar is all.

The title uses “may,” which is basically the subjunctive in modern English usage, and suggests that she WAS a security guard and it’s POSSIBLE therefore that she would not have been able to use that particular weapon.

However, she was not a security guard, and thus she was simply using a particular weapon that was perfectly legimate for her to use.

Therefore, the headline should have been, “Colorado Heroine Would Have Been Legally Prevented from Using Beretta if a Security Guard.”

You have a point. If I were omniscient, I would have used “would” instead of “may”. I did not have access to the definition in the city ordnance. I wanted to point out the legal difference that I was 99 percent sure of. The original AP article left room for doubt, and I wanted to be precise.

52 posted on 12/16/2007 11:46:40 AM PST by marktwain
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To: P8riot
"One round from my .475 Linebaugh (400gr @ 1400FPS) would have done the same thing."

Plus blow everyone's eardrums out and spatter perp all over the church.

53 posted on 12/16/2007 11:47:50 AM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: mamelukesabre
I have a beretta 92 FS. It’s a very fine weapon. Shoots very straight. But I sure wouldn’t want to carry one on me 24-7. I’m more impressed this smallish female lugs the thing around all the time than I am that she actually shot and hit a bad guy with it.

For carry, I need something much smaller. Kahr, walther, keltec, seacamp, etc. Otherwise, I just leave it home.

I've got a Taurus PT-99, which is very similar to the Beretta (in fact, Taurus bought their tooling from Beretta). It's a terrific gun, and in fact, I used to use it for USPSA competition: Imagine an Ernie Hill Speed Leather rig, along with that gun with 17 rounds in the mag, and 3 extra 17 round mags on my belt! It was a miracle that my pants weren't down around my ankles!

I'm big enough that with a jacket, I can CC my S&W 625-5, a .45ACP N-Frame... But as you said, I'd really hate to carry it every day. Although I haven't gone to the trouble to get a CCW permit (I live in MO, but work in KS, which hasn't quite worked out their CCW just yet, regarding out of state residents, or if they'll honor MO CCW permits) but my "carry weapon" will probably be my Star Firestar in .40S&W. Not a whole lot of fun to shoot. It's about the size of a .380 auto, and it just beats the hell out of your thumb knuckle when fired.

Mark

54 posted on 12/16/2007 11:48:06 AM PST by MarkL
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To: livius
“BTW, the headline is klutzy in any case. Da Post (NY Post) could have gotten the facts into about 5 words. Well, maybe 6.”

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I can always learn, and Freerepublic is a great University.

As a member of the Pajamamedia, I strive for ever better accuracy and style.

55 posted on 12/16/2007 11:49:13 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

The most popular security revolver is a Ruger Security Six, I think. A good, reliable gun, which comes chambered for .357. If she had to carry a wheelgun, it is likely she would have had one of these.


56 posted on 12/16/2007 11:53:00 AM PST by gridlock (Of all the pleasures of watching Hillary fail, the sweetest is watching Bill duck the blame...)
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To: P8riot

Well, they say that if you’re in bear country your sidearm’s calibre should start with at least a ‘.4’

I think yours qualifies!!!


57 posted on 12/16/2007 11:53:30 AM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: marktwain

If she were in the alice-in-wonderland world of the U.S. Military she would probably be facing Court Martial.


58 posted on 12/16/2007 11:58:36 AM PST by gitmogrunt (8 years of Clinton and 8 years of Bush Destroyed America)
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To: gridlock
“The most popular security revolver is a Ruger Security Six, I think. A good, reliable gun, which comes chambered for .357. If she had to carry a wheelgun, it is likely she would have had one of these.”

I suspect that it is a Smith & Wesson model 10 in .38 Smith & Wesson Special caliber. It was the standard police gun for decades, and they were dirt cheap on the used police gun market from about 1992 to 2002. I bought and sold dozens when I had an FFL, many re imported from England when the bobbies switched to Glocks.

59 posted on 12/16/2007 12:00:25 PM PST by marktwain
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To: P8riot

Nice.

Question: Is it better to get your cast before or after breaking your wrist firing that thing?


60 posted on 12/16/2007 12:02:58 PM PST by 2111USMC
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To: marktwain

You’re right. There is confusion about whether she was in official capacity as a security guard at the time. Meanwhile, this is a real wake up call to other religious institutions around the country to get people with guns in the buildings.


61 posted on 12/16/2007 12:06:13 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl (OMGIIHIHOIIC ping list)
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To: Cinnamon Girl
“You’re right. There is confusion about whether she was in official capacity as a security guard at the time. Meanwhile, this is a real wake up call to other religious institutions around the country to get people with guns in the buildings.”

Thank you. I think the confusion is partly deliberate. I want people to realize that there are advantages to having private volunteers. They are not constricted in the same way as legally licensed security people are.

62 posted on 12/16/2007 12:16:47 PM PST by marktwain
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To: XeniaSt
or a .357 Sig

.357 Sig ballistics are nearly identical to .357 mag. The primary difference is .357 Sig is a semi-auto pistol round. One of our local SWAT officers took a .357 mag in the back. His vest stopped it, but it still left a big red bruise.

63 posted on 12/16/2007 12:18:26 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: livius
I would put it differently. "Colorado Heroine MIGHT have been legally prevented ....." is closer, though not perfectly satisfactory. I'd I'd suggest that what you're after in parsing this is not the mood "subjunctive" but one (or more) of the various "conditional" tenses.

Consider

Then compare them to

So the headline reflects, IMHO, two problems with modern US English, we don't know the sequence of tenses in conditional sentences, and we don't know the inflection of the verb "may".

IMHO, when language loses the ability to make distinctions, it loses something inmportant. There's an real difference between "She MAY not be able," and "She MIGHT no be able", but the uses of the tenses of "may" is vanishing, so we're having to find different ways to draw that distinction.

In this "headline", what we have is a hypothesis contrary to fact. Here's a restriction on registered security guards. She isn't a registered security guard, so it's not a restriction on how she can be armed. But if she HAD BEEN a registered security guard (which she, in fact, wasn't) then she MIGHT HAVE BEEN (Or, I wouldd htink, would certaianly have been) restricted from carrying her lovely Beretta 92-FS, which is one of the sweetest guns I own, though I prefer my sigp226, and, if I AM ombliged to carry a revolver, I usually carry my S&W 686P.

Don't get me going on grammar and "may" -- instant pedant, AND if I WERE to be disagreed with, I MIGHT draw one of my weapons, though I think I WOULD get more satisfaction from using my knife, up close and personal, than I WOULD from using a gun at some distance.

I trust I make myself obscure.

64 posted on 12/16/2007 12:23:36 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
“In this “headline”, what we have is a hypothesis contrary to fact. Here’s a restriction on registered security guards. She isn’t a registered security guard, so it’s not a restriction on how she can be armed. But if she HAD BEEN a registered security guard (which she, in fact, wasn’t) then she MIGHT HAVE BEEN (Or, I wouldd htink, would certaianly have been) restricted from carrying her lovely Beretta 92-FS, which is one of the sweetest guns I own, though I prefer my sigp226, and, if I AM ombliged to carry a revolver, I usually carry my S&W 686P.”

I do not know the legal definition of “security guard” in the city ordnance. I used “may” because the ordnance may apply to her, though I think that unlikely.

I don’t claim that grammer is my strong suit, but I am willing to learn from those more learned than I.

65 posted on 12/16/2007 12:33:26 PM PST by marktwain
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To: goldstategop

Evil guns...at least that is what the libs in the Colorado legislature think...


66 posted on 12/16/2007 12:37:44 PM PST by TheBattman (LORD God, please help us to elect a Godly and patriotic man for President in 08, Amen.)
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To: Mad Dawg
“restricted from carrying her lovely Beretta 92-FS”

Do you know that it was a Beretta 92-FS? Or are you merely speculating?

67 posted on 12/16/2007 12:47:52 PM PST by marktwain
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To: spunkets

Are you kidding me? THat’s all you got? You seriously need an upgrade.

500 smith&wesson

hehe, just kidding.


68 posted on 12/16/2007 1:14:40 PM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: MarkL
Sounds to me like she has no business with any firearm, if it takes 10 shots to stop an individual you need to go back to the range! She was a danger to all the innocent people around her. That could be why security guards are required to carry revolvers second shots take a little more time and that could give everybody else time to duck. After that a revolver semi-auto are both just as deadly on the first shot but only if you hit your target.
69 posted on 12/16/2007 1:20:33 PM PST by CowboyConservative
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To: Myrddin

Depends on barrel length.

With long barrels, a 357mag outperforms a 357sig. With short barrels, the 357sig is the winner.

Actually, with really short barrels, say a 1-7/8” snub revolver compared to a 3”bbl auto, even a 9mm luger +P outperforms a 357mag.

Unless you are a handloader, 357mag does very poorly with short barrels.


70 posted on 12/16/2007 1:22:56 PM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: CowboyConservative

I don’t think anyone’s complaining. I know if I was there, I woulnd’t be complaining any.


71 posted on 12/16/2007 1:25:09 PM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: marktwain

As you can tell, I like grammar and related issues. But at least I know I’m weird! I hope my pedantic rant didn’t sound like it was aimed at you. It’s just the kind of thing that happens sometimes, you know, too much coffee, too much fee time, a strong desire to avoid getting ready for Xmas, suddenly the difference between May and Might is the most important thing in the world!


72 posted on 12/16/2007 1:28:46 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: mamelukesabre
500 smith&wesson

hehe, just kidding.

I know you were just kidding, because the weight of that 500 S&W pistol is almost twice that of this baby. So the S&W is a wimp in the recoil department. I wear a brace sometimes when I fire the Linebaugh as I am not as young as I used to be.

73 posted on 12/16/2007 1:31:02 PM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: CowboyConservative

You’re kidding, I assume.


74 posted on 12/16/2007 1:39:02 PM PST by Fido969 ("The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax." - Albert Einstein)
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To: CowboyConservative
I'd love to read an account of the incident, or "go to the tape".

What I hear/read is that she engaged the guy and advanced on him while yelling "Surrender!" and firing. If a reliable and more detailed account is available, I'd love to see it.

It MAY not be accurate to say she NEEDED all ten shots. I can imagine in a situation where you are advancing on an armed person who has already started shooting that you focus on lining up your front sight with his general outline and pull the trigger until all you hear is "Click, click, click." (So why did she have only a 10-round mag? Who knows?) She may have kind of forgotten to stop shooting until she ran out or the guy was obviously on the floor and more or less motionless.

Your average LEO or security person doesn't get a whole lot of practice dealing with major adrenaline dumps. I don't think it's within reasonable bounds to expect Dirty Harry-like cool and deliberation from such folks. I think she did fine.

Are there any indications she hit anybody else? From one account that I heard, she did a lot better than her two male companions who sat around and dithered while she actually engaged the bad guy. Yeah, I guess she wasn't perfect. I kind of like her imperfection and would like to think I'd do as well in a similar situation.

75 posted on 12/16/2007 1:39:13 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: mamelukesabre
My .357 mag is a 686+ with 4" barrel. I do have a 640 around as well for CCW. The 686+ has a long enough sight radius to be a fine performer for indoor center fire target competition.
76 posted on 12/16/2007 1:39:29 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Mad Dawg
“As you can tell, I like grammar and related issues. But at least I know I’m weird! I hope my pedantic rant didn’t sound like it was aimed at you. It’s just the kind of thing that happens sometimes, you know, too much coffee, too much fee time, a strong desire to avoid getting ready for Xmas, suddenly the difference between May and Might is the most important thing in the world!”

Didn’t bother me a bit. In fact, I rather enjoyed it. Feel free to chime in any time.

77 posted on 12/16/2007 1:43:34 PM PST by marktwain
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To: P8riot
Nice'un! I like my 45 colt handloads at 250 grain 12 fps. Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
78 posted on 12/16/2007 1:47:47 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: Hazcat

12 FPS?

Elmer Keith’s tobacco spit is deadlier than that! :)


79 posted on 12/16/2007 1:49:36 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Hazcat

That’s 1200 fps not 12!


80 posted on 12/16/2007 1:51:49 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: Tijeras_Slim

See paost # 80 (I should learn to preview!)


81 posted on 12/16/2007 1:53:20 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: Hazcat

I figured, but I’d lose my FReeper license if I let something like that pass on a gun thread without comment.

I’m partial to my 3.5” Smith 27.


82 posted on 12/16/2007 1:56:05 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Myrddin

By “performance” I was not referring to accuracy. I was referring to muzzle energy. Stopping power.


83 posted on 12/16/2007 1:56:12 PM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: P8riot; All
One round from my .475 Linebaugh (400gr @ 1400FPS) would have done the same thing. If it can stop an Alaskan Brown, it can stop a deranged twit.

She used a weapon she could hit with, to good effect.

Hits with a 9 are better than misses with an elephant gun.

And even if you have a BIG, BIG gun with BIG, BIG bullets, you still need BIG, BIG stones to close the range on a shooter while taking fire and still put him down.

Congratulations to the heroine of this affair.

84 posted on 12/16/2007 1:58:47 PM PST by Jim Noble (Trails of trouble, roads of battle, paths of victory we shall walk.)
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To: mamelukesabre
By “performance” I was not referring to accuracy. I was referring to muzzle energy. Stopping power.

As in real estate, the 3 most important things are location, location, location. A well placed shot with a .22 beats a poorly placed shot with a .454 Casull. A center of mass shot is the first choice as it presents the largest target. If body armor is encountered, you're left with a head shot or upper leg. The latter is what killed Sean Taylor.

85 posted on 12/16/2007 2:21:37 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: CowboyConservative
Sounds to me like she has no business with any firearm, if it takes 10 shots to stop an individual you need to go back to the range!

Hey Cowboy she could have just been using an old firearms rule "When in doubt, empty the magazine".

If it was a revolver it probably would have been 6 to 8 shots of 357 into him. "Empty the cylinder"

86 posted on 12/16/2007 2:26:01 PM PST by Centurion2000 (False modesty is as great a sin as false pride.)
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To: Jim Noble
you still need BIG, BIG stones to close the range on a shooter while taking fire and still put him down.

or a solid faith in a Big God guiding your movement...

We need an open record push for the autopsy photos, let those be the ones that the press gets for the copycats...

87 posted on 12/16/2007 2:26:23 PM PST by Gilbo_3 (A few Rams must look after the sheep 'til the Good Shepherd returns...)
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To: Myrddin

I’ve read elsewhere that Jeanne’s firearm was a 9mm. And my impression was he shot himself with his handgun. He had three weapons on him.


88 posted on 12/16/2007 2:29:06 PM PST by Luke Skyfreeper
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To: PLMerite
What does the CSR have to say about these:

89 posted on 12/16/2007 2:31:31 PM PST by NCC-1701 (PUT AN END TO ORGANIZED CRIME. ABOLISH THE I.R.S.)
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To: Hazcat

I was thinkin’ 12 fps was a little slow...


90 posted on 12/16/2007 2:34:23 PM PST by Luke Skyfreeper
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To: Myrddin

Tell me more about this upper leg shot.


91 posted on 12/16/2007 2:35:53 PM PST by Luke Skyfreeper
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To: Jim Noble
And even if you have a BIG, BIG gun with BIG, BIG bullets, you still need BIG, BIG stones to close the range on a shooter while taking fire and still put him down.

And here we have the essence of who she is.

She is somebody who did not hesitate to engage the bad guy, even though he had a long arm and she just had a pistol.

92 posted on 12/16/2007 2:35:59 PM PST by PapaBear3625
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To: claudiustg
"Sven rounds from a S&W..."

Ole shoots a S&W; I thought Sven shot a Ruger.

93 posted on 12/16/2007 2:37:43 PM PST by diogenes ghost
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To: oldenuff2no
"What morons!!!!"

Yup....

Morons that don't read, or don't understand, the article/post.

94 posted on 12/16/2007 2:40:21 PM PST by diogenes ghost
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To: Jim Noble

Most definitely. My response was in the context of dispelling the rumor that revolvers were somehow inferior.


95 posted on 12/16/2007 2:41:58 PM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Myrddin

While the caliber of the firearm is relevant, and in some cases it is even decisive, the main point is that this was combat.

In combat you have the weapon, but far more important is the caliber of the person who is engaged in combat. Combat, once begun, is usually to the death (or something approximating death).

She was fearless, and was obviously willing to fight to the death.

Her caliber as a warrior was what made the difference. The handgun caliber was secondary. She broke the evil one’s will and kept going as long as it took. Totally heroic.


96 posted on 12/16/2007 2:46:04 PM PST by 2ndClassCitizen
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To: XeniaSt

-—I sure would not want to fire a compensated pistol in dim light.
You would be blinded by the flash.-—

That’s actually not true.


97 posted on 12/16/2007 2:48:30 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
I Love my 2 1/8" S&W 640 a wrist breaker, I am old.
98 posted on 12/16/2007 2:50:15 PM PST by Little Bill (Welcome to the Newly Socialist State of New Hampshire)
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To: Larry Lucido

-—Does Sven have to be holding the revolver?-—

Just don’t let get anywhere near any panacakes!


99 posted on 12/16/2007 2:51:20 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: claudiustg
That’s actually not true.

Try it at night

100 posted on 12/16/2007 2:51:37 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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