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Disenfranchised conservatives, stolen elections
Renew America ^ | January 24, 2008 | JR Dieckmann

Posted on 01/24/2008 9:47:43 PM PST by Graybeard58

The 2008 primary election process has clearly been unfair to conservative candidates, and here's why. Several liberal and moderate/independent states chose to hold their primary elections and caucuses early, all wanting to be first — so they said. But look at what has happened as a result. Conservative candidates like Fred Thompson and Duncan Hunter have been drummed out of the race by breaking their bank accounts in non conservative states before the rest of the country ever had a chance to vote for them. Is this what we call "fair and democratic elections"?

These are supposed to be national elections, not independent state elections. By allowing some states to hold primaries before others gives those states the advantage to propel or retard the individual campaigns depending on the political landscape of those few states. As we are now seeing, when liberal and moderate states hold early elections, conservative candidates have no chance of ever making it into the general election or winning the presidency.

If we are ever again to have fair elections in this country, then primary elections are going to have to be standardized and held on the same day in all states, if everyone is to have a chance to participate in the election process. Either that or there is going to have to be a media blackout until everyone has had a chance to vote. Election returns are not allowed to air until the polls are closed. Does it make any sense that we should be seeing election returns from other states before we even have a chance to go to the polls? I don't want a few small states deciding who we can vote for in the party primary elections.

We hear so much about voter disenfranchisement these days but nobody is talking about the disenfranchisement of conservatives to vote for candidates who share their views. If your favorite candidate is purged from the race early, then where is your right to vote for the candidate of your choice? "Write ins?" In most voting methods today there is no provision to write in a candidate's name, and even if there were, what chance would he have of winning? Most voters are going to vote for a name printed on the ballot. This year we have seen the largest disenfranchisement of voters in history, and they are all conservatives.

Did this occur by chance, or was it planned from the start? Considering the ambitions of George Soros and Billary Clinton to gain and hold power over the country by any means necessary, by hook or by crook, I can't dismiss the possibility that this was no accident. Yet the Republican leadership will never challenge the legitimacy of elections or the likelihood of voter fraud on the part of the Democrats. It's almost as though they are willing parties to election corruption.

Now the media wants us to think that John McCain is the frontrunner for the Republicans in spite of fact that he is the most liberal Republican in the race. McCain will never be elected president, the conservative base simply will not vote for him. Most of them would rather vote for Ron Paul who may be a conservative alternative on a 3rd party ticket in November, or they will simply not vote at all, just as they did in 2006. Why go to the polls to vote if no one you like is running?

The purpose of voting is having your voice heard and counted for the candidate of your choice; not about electing a political party that no longer represents your views. We are tired of voting for the lesser of two evils in America. What's the point when it's simply six of one, and a half dozen of the other, both choices bad? Voters who feel disenfranchised will simply throw up their hands and say "why bother?" McCain would be preferable to the Clintons or Obama only on the issue of national security. On most other issues, there is virtually little difference.

Liberal economic policies have dominated Washington ever since George W. Bush was elected. The government continues to pump worthless money into the economy just like they did this week with the cut in interest rates, which only makes the problem worse. The economy should be controlled by the free market, not the government. This is just another example of the Communism that has been taking over America.

Every time the government does something to influence the economy, it just gets worse. That is the same thing that destroyed the Soviet Union. Eventually it just went bankrupt trying to control the Russian economy and "take care of its people," just like the Democrats are campaigning on right now. Problems only get worse when government gets involved. The government is the problem, not the solution.

The economy has to be allowed to flow freely and seek its own level, influenced only by the marketplace. Anytime the government interferes with that using what they call "stimulus," it causes more inflation and our money declines in value, resulting in only an artificial and temporary fix. The real fix is to let the economy seek its own market level, not pump it up with artificial stimulus just to make the numbers look good on paper.

Yet, the American voters are still too ignorant to see it and continue voting for these liberals in both parties who are driving the country straight into Communism. The Democrat plan of dumbing down America over the past couple of generations has been successful. It's too late now to re-educate the people, because it has become too widespread. I'm afraid we have already lost the country. We have tried to warn them for decades but they wouldn't listen. They insist on asking what their country can do for them, rather than what they can do for their country.

With our money becoming worth less and less, and our products dependent mostly on foreign trade, even Washington spending more money to keep 'the people' alive won't help; it will all just be worthless. Bush and the Congress should have seen this coming years ago but ignored it. They all invested in their own survival by giving our money to special interests and pork vendors who they expect will pay them back personally after the crash of our economy.

With Fred Thompson now out of the race, I'm almost ready to switch my support to Ron Paul and throw them a real turkey. His foreign policy is a disaster but he's a strict constitutionalist and will veto every bill the Congress tries to pass that includes unconstitutional spending, which is just about all of them.

Of course, Paul won't win the elections — no way, no how. He will likely run as a 3rd party candidate, splitting the Republican Party in two because the Republican Party no longer seems to represent real conservatives. I don't think Paul is the right man for the job but I would like to see some of his policies regarding constitutional government established in Washington.

I'm starting to think now that this may be the time for a mass exodus from the Republican party and the right time to form a 3rd party of conservatives, but without the antiwar, anti-defense, blame America first attitude of the Paul Libertarians.

It doesn't look like it's going to get any better in the Republican Party, they had their chance. Every real conservative who speaks out seems to get thrown under the bus just like moderates do in the Democrat party. Remember George Allen, Rick Santorum, and Tom Delay? Many of us hoped that Republicans would have learned their lesson from the 2006 elections. That being that "you can't beat the Democrats by trying to be like them." Instead, the Republicans have become the Socialist party, while the Democrats have become the Communist party. I've had enough of it.

There is a chance that Romney can hold Republicans together but not McCain or Huckabee. Nor can Giuliani, but he will probably be next to drop out if Huckabee doesn't beat him to it. Romney is going to have problems with some Evangelicals who won't support him on religious grounds, and conservatives will not support or vote for McCain. There is little chance we can win in November. The Republican Party has destroyed itself by trying to be like Democrats.

There is the possibility that the Republican party has been corrupted by Democrats crossing over to vote for Republicans in the primary in order to accomplish just what we see happening. It could all be part of a plot hatched by George Soros and the Clintons to do just that. It's something to consider. Otherwise, I just can't make any sense out of the way the Republicans are voting today. Where have all of the conservatives gone? To their graves? Or were they all waiting to vote for a conservative in the states that now will not have that opportunity?

A mass exodus from the Republican Party, now on the heels of Thompson's departure, would send a clear message to the party leadership that they have gone astray and are on the verge of collapse if they don't come back to the conservative base. In the meantime, even registered as independent voters without party affiliation, we can still vote against the democrats and for the Republican candidate or anyone else we choose.

Conservatives are loyal to their values and beliefs, not to a political party. The Republican Party no longer shares those values and beliefs and no longer deserves the support of conservatives. I will reregister as an independent voter until I see a third party emerge that represents my beliefs. In the meantime, I consider myself just another disenfranchised conservative voter.


TOPICS: Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2008electionbias; collusion; fredthompson; howtostealanelection; hunter; mediablackout; riggedelection; rinos
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To: taxcontrol

You are closest to the solution to the primary process and the fragmentation of the RepParty.
April 15 is a good start but let it run until Jun 15.
Then have the conventions between Jul 1 and Aug 15.
By bracketing the start dates and curtailing the lack of party discipline (my state first) the issue of disenfranchisement ceases.

Most of these posts miss the point that Rockefellar republicans are in the party at all and thereby making
RINO an incorrect term, it should be CINO.
Recall that the RockefellarWing is as liberal as the KennedyWing.

By not having any party discipline and purge the party of ALL LIBERAL factions (socialist/neocons by other names spells Commie/fellow traveler)is the cause of the current matters in force.
If that purge could occur then RINO would have come accuratcy.


51 posted on 01/25/2008 3:02:45 AM PST by buffaloKiller ("No liberal is my brother, under the skin they are Orcs. Serving and doing evil endlessly.")
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To: Darkwolf377

I’m with you. I am pissed that the people of Iowa, NH and SC basically made the choices for the rest of us. Come on three states out of 50? That leaves an awful lot of us out of the process.


52 posted on 01/25/2008 3:07:57 AM PST by panthermom (DUNCAN HUNTER 2008)
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To: dvwjr

If the primaries are purely internal then they should all be closed. After the parties elect it’s nominee then let them duke it out for the crossovers and independants.


53 posted on 01/25/2008 3:11:52 AM PST by panthermom (DUNCAN HUNTER 2008)
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To: Shery

I too was shocked at AC’s choice. And then it occured to me that “there’s been a whole lot of faking going on”.
As I watch who the various pundits/ex-candidates select as their man, it is clear that these folks are doin’ some serious deceits. How can there be so much disconnect between espoused positions and their candidate choice.

If one thing is of value from all this confusion is the shakeout of who is a true conservative and who is/has been only faking it. For when the nut-cuttin time came who stood ground and stayed put and who ducked and ran and flip-floped.

As one pundit stated, Ron Paul is more conservative than ANY of the remaining candidates and he has NOT run away or ducked out.
Thanks AC, FT and DH - FOR NOTHING. Now we know.


54 posted on 01/25/2008 3:14:50 AM PST by buffaloKiller ("No liberal is my brother, under the skin they are Orcs. Serving and doing evil endlessly.")
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To: dvwjr

The RNC hacks in DC don’t have a clue. They will allow this to continue unabated. It is asinine.


55 posted on 01/25/2008 4:01:02 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: buffaloKiller
I too was shocked at AC’s choice. And then it occured to me that “there’s been a whole lot of faking going on”.

That is not exactly true. In Ann Coulter's defense, she always said she was FOR Duncan Hunter- He was her favorite. But she also predicted that Romney would eventually get the nod. Her analysis of who would get to the end, and who was the best of that lot has been pretty accurate.

56 posted on 01/25/2008 4:05:46 AM PST by roamer_1 (Conservative always, Republican no more. Keyes '08)
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To: Graybeard58
Sorry sir, but I couldn't get beyond this sentence"

These are supposed to be national elections, not independent state elections.

The author should brush up on his Constitution and try to gain some insight into Federalism and the Electoral College. The truth is that we have fifty seperate state elections on the same day in November.

57 posted on 01/25/2008 4:13:35 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: metesky

“on the same day”.. end of lesson.


58 posted on 01/25/2008 4:24:53 AM PST by JoeSixPack1
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To: Owen
An Army? We need Patton's 3rd Army, but we end up with Romney?

Romney's a two faced phony; flip-flopper....

I DON'T TRUST HIM!

We're screwed.

59 posted on 01/25/2008 4:41:42 AM PST by AFreeBird (No Romney, No Rudy, No McLame, No Huck, No Paul! Toss the GOP into the ashcan of History.)
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To: Graybeard58

I don’t agree with everything this guy says, but a lot of it makes a helluva lot of sense. And he’s from Los Angeles???


60 posted on 01/25/2008 4:44:02 AM PST by OCCASparky (Steely-Eyed Killer of the Deep)
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To: JoeSixPack1

Another one...


61 posted on 01/25/2008 4:45:34 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: Graybeard58
Conservatives are loyal to their values and beliefs, not to a political party. The Republican Party no longer shares those values and beliefs and no longer deserves the support of conservatives.

Sums up my thoughts on the matter as well.

62 posted on 01/25/2008 4:50:21 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government, Benito Guilinni a short man in search of a balcony)
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To: P-Marlowe
You very well may get to decide this thing.

Hobson's Choice is alive and well.
63 posted on 01/25/2008 4:53:09 AM PST by OCCASparky (Steely-Eyed Killer of the Deep)
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To: Darkwolf377
I have no idea why they're not done this way, since we can certainly manage to hold a presidential election on the same day across the country.

This would not change the outcome as then candidates would only be campaigning on the coasts and they are still liberal.

Actually, in Iowa, Republicans went for Huck, believing him to be conservative.

64 posted on 01/25/2008 4:55:35 AM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
Actually, in Iowa, Republicans went for Huck, believing him to be conservative.

C'mon, those cornpones think Chuck Hagel is conservative.
65 posted on 01/25/2008 5:02:32 AM PST by OCCASparky (Steely-Eyed Killer of the Deep)
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To: Darkwolf377
Notice how no one is talking about drilling for oil anymore? Because we don't WANT to face up to that--oil drilling is eeeeevil, so let's just NOT talk about it.

This is a winning issue for Republicans--if they'd only use it, along with illegal immigration, national security and the fact that RATS want to destroy the economy with tax increases and resulting unemployment.

66 posted on 01/25/2008 5:04:06 AM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Owen

BTW, the phrase “you go to war with the army you have” reflects the mass of the army - not the leadership. This year, the battle includes whether or not the principles of each and every conservative is for sale.

Mine are not.


67 posted on 01/25/2008 5:06:07 AM PST by MortMan (Have a pheasant plucking day!)
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To: OCCASparky
C'mon, those cornpones think Chuck Hagel is conservative.

This is ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about.

68 posted on 01/25/2008 5:10:29 AM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Richard Kimball
Well, how about bringing back this part of Reagan's philosophy: "Thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican." Let's debate issues, stand for principles, and seek the best candidate we can. When that is done, let's put aside animosity and work to elect our candidate.

Anybody can put on a Republican mantel, does NOT make them one. Now had McCain adhered to that mantel he would have full conservative support. A leader must have the ability to lead NOT insult and assault a people into submission.

69 posted on 01/25/2008 5:16:24 AM PST by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Graybeard58
The 2008 primary election process has clearly been unfair to conservative candidates,

I don't agree. The most conservative candidates were not good candidates. They also failed to do well in the "non-voting" early primary consisting of fundraising and endorsements. They had the weakest resumes for the job. Hunter was Congressman, for gods sake! When was the last time we selected a Congressman for our nominee.

and here's why. Several liberal and moderate/independent states chose to hold their primary elections and caucuses early, all wanting to be first — so they said.

Do you really think that the results would have been different if some other state went first. Every state has build in bias's. Perhaps Tennessee should have gone first? Not fair to McCain. Toss out Arizona, California, New Hamphshire....

But look at what has happened as a result. Conservative candidates like Fred Thompson and Duncan Hunter have been drummed out of the race by breaking their bank accounts in non conservative states before the rest of the country ever had a chance to vote for them. Is this what we call "fair and democratic elections"?

That's just an excuse! Maybe it could happen like you say, but it DIDN'T. Hunter was never in the race to win, and Thompson ran an uninspiring campaign. He entered late, wasn't in a bunch of critical debates, put in little time on the ground in the early states. Basically he looked like he wanted to be coronated.

These are supposed to be national elections, not independent state elections.

WAIT A SECOND! I thought you said you were a Conservative?? Aren't we honoring the original design of a Union of Sovereign States? Perhaps you need a refresher course on the US Constitution. The election of the President is a series of State races, not one big popular vote. It is, by design, not a "national election". The primary process mimicks this for a very good reason.

By allowing some states to hold primaries before others gives those states the advantage to propel or retard the individual campaigns depending on the political landscape of those few states.

Well yes but the early states are not all the same, and they are not all big states, either. Iowa and New Hampshire are "retail" states and candidates don't need big cash to compete in them like they would in New York, Texas or California.

As we are now seeing, when liberal and moderate states hold early elections, conservative candidates have no chance of ever making it into the general election or winning the presidency.

Whhaaa. My candidate didn't win. OK, Utah is the most conservative state. So they should go first. Would that have helped Fred?

If we are ever again to have fair elections in this country,

Oh, please. Grow up. You sound like a Move On.Org leftist. The elections were fair. You don't like the sequencing of them, ok, I get that. But still no one has really come up with a better plan, nor a way to implement it. You are now going to propose a really bad one, I can feel it.

then primary elections are going to have to be standardized and held on the same day in all states,

Horrible plan. So the winner of the Everything Tuesday will be the person who the media likes the most, I guess. You'd take power away from voters and give it to ABC/NBC/CBS/CNN/PBS/FOX and the NY Times. Because excepting Billionaires (a group who would love your plan) who is going to buy ads nationwide to get their story out? NO ONE. Kiss goodbye someone like Huckabee getting anywhere in that race. Hello President Rudy or McCain in this election. Are those your conservatives?

if everyone is to have a chance to participate in the election process. Everyone DOES get a chance to particpate in the election process. And this year later states are going to be very very important. Super Tuesday is NOT going to pick the Republican nominee. That means the contest moves on to Texas, Washington and eventually maybe even the really late states, like Oregon.

Either that or there is going to have to be a media blackout until everyone has had a chance to vote.

Ok, now your plan is getting REALLY STUPID! Are you going to ammend the Constitution to prohibit newspapers from publishing news about elections for months? That's you 'better' and 'fairer' system? (Sorry about Fred. McCain may be your man after all though.)

Election returns are not allowed to air until the polls are closed. Does it make any sense that we should be seeing election returns from other states before we even have a chance to go to the polls?

Well it makes perfect sense to me. I believe in the Presidential Race the networks have a pledge to not report state results until the polls close. But seeing as it is actually a contest to win electoral votes it makes perfect sense to report results by state. I guess under your poorly defined "national primary" we'd all vote on the same day, but we're still voting state by state for our state reps. Or do you also intend to do away with delegates and just select the winner of the popular vote? What if it's split?

I don't want a few small states deciding who we can vote for in the party primary elections.

I don't want you designing the primary system for 50 states. Stick to fixing the one where you live if you are really upset about it.

We hear so much about voter disenfranchisement these days but nobody is talking about the disenfranchisement of conservatives to vote for candidates who share their views.

The Uber-Conservatives didn't have a good candidate. You had a Congressman and a sleepy ex-senator. Find better candidates. Uber-Conservatives don't tend to be the best candidates for the GOP anyway, either. Goldwater was a pillar of conservative values and got crushed by LBJ.

American politics takes place between the 40 yard lines. The more extreme left and right wingers are always going to be disapointed. Edwards is losing (the more left of the three main Dems). Kucinich never got started. He was like the Duncan Hunter of the Donks. Very true to his super-liberal beliefs. A Congress-critter.

Most Americans are not ideologues and they want to vote for a moderate Governor for POTUS, not some back bench ideologue. That's why Newt never made it very far, despite the hype.

If your favorite candidate is purged from the race early, then where is your right to vote for the candidate of your choice?

Geeze. Life isn't perfect, you know. You have a right to vote, not a right to have the person you absolutely think is the best have a statistically even chance of winning the election. It is a rough and tumble system that rewards, uh, smart politicians.

This year we have seen the largest disenfranchisement of voters in history, and they are all conservatives.

There you go with your MoveOn rhetoric again. "Disenfranchisement" means someone prevents you from voting. No one is preventing anyone from voting (or caucusing). Stop misusing language. You are complaining that your favorite candidates didn't do well in the early primary states. OK. Sorry. That is not the moral equivilent of Bull Conner using dogs and firehoses to keep Conservatives away from the polls.

BTW: New Hampshire is the most Conservative state in New England, by far. It sends Republicans to Congress, it elects Republican Governors and went for Bush in 2000. So there are a lot of Conservatives there. The top vote getter in New Hampshire only got 25% or so this year. Seems to me that if ALL THE CONSERVATIVES felt strongly about this they could easily have put their man in the top, or near the top. Instead, rather obviously, Conservatives split along lines of what is important to them.

Did this occur by chance, or was it planned from the start? Considering the ambitions of George Soros and Billary Clinton to gain and hold power over the country by any means necessary, by hook or by crook, I can't dismiss the possibility that this was no accident.

Geeze! Now I'm thinking you should vote for Ron Paul! Get real, OK? New Hampshire and Iowa have been at the start of the process for 30 years. It has NOTHING to do with Soros or Clinton. The New Hampshire legislature (as elected by the people of New Hampshire) are very very jealous of their 'first in the nation' status and passed a law that requires the Sec. of State to move the primary date to whenever it has to be to make it first. Clever, eh?

Yet the Republican leadership will never challenge the legitimacy of elections

You are far off the deep end. Like your claim of "disenfranchisement' you are casting at straws. The elections are legitimate because they have been set up by the many State GOP Parties, and conducted in a free and fair manner. You want "equality of outcome" or something. To start saying the elections are illegitimate because they were not sequenced in such as way as to favor Graybeard58s definition of Conservative is absurd.

or the likelihood of voter fraud on the part of the Democrats.What are you talking about? Voter fraud? I have not heard it credibly alleged by anyone in this election, except perhaps at the Democratic Caucus's in Nevada. You remind me of the Democrats who insisted that Bush winning in 2004 was proof the election was rigged, because everyone (at least in Cambridge, Mass) hates Bush and he could not have POSSSIBLY won those votes without cheating.

It's almost as though they are willing parties to election corruption.

My you love to throw charges around. "Election Corruption" consists of New Hampshire having the first primary?

Now the media wants us to think that John McCain is the frontrunner for the Republicans in spite of fact that he is the most liberal Republican in the race.

Ahh, we are moving on to the evil press. O.K. Some in the press do want us to think this, for instance the New York Times just endorsed him. On the other hand Hugh Hewitt has been holding a 3 hour a day talk-a-thon in favor of Romney. Rush kinda/sorta came out for Thompson, too late. Bortz likes Huck because of the Fair Tax proposal, Bill Kristol of the Weekly Standard seems not to have picked one yet.

McCain will never be elected president, the conservative base simply will not vote for him.

OK, maybe, but so what. We're way off topic. Whether individual A or B will win really isn't connected to charges of disenfranchisement and election fraud. Oh, yeah, most national polls show McCain as the most competitive against eithef of the presumptive nominees on the Donk side. That's one reason that (some, impure) conservatives are leaning his way. But don't let facts get in the way of your preconceptions.

Most of them would rather vote for Ron Paul who may be a conservative alternative on a 3rd party ticket in November, or they will simply not vote at all, just as they did in 2006.

There is little proof of this oft stated (on Free Republic) calumny. Republicans lost because the swing voters swung Dem. Incumbent parties almost always lose off year elections. No big surprise. The various scandals (Cunningham, gay pages, Scooter) didn't help either.

Why go to the polls to vote if no one you like is running?

Influence the course of politics by helping choose from among those on the ballot. On the other hand if all the candidates are unacceptable then it's fine not to vote. Skip that race and vote the others ,or vote the initatives in your state. I know several people who are too "pure" to vote for any real candidate. You may be in that class. Rest assured the rest of us will select a President for you.

The purpose of voting is having your voice heard and counted for the candidate of your choice;

Not really! it's to elect leaders. You are suffering from narcisism. It's not all about you and your voice, even though it might feel that way. It's about the mass of Americans selecting leaders so we can get back to watching football and adding chrome to our motorcycles

not about electing a political party that no longer represents your views.

OK, you've moved on to topic #3 in this tiresome essay. "Why the Republicans are Bad".

We are tired of voting for the lesser of two evils in America.

Vote for Ron Paul then, he is very pure.

What's the point when it's simply six of one, and a half dozen of the other, both choices bad? Voters who feel disenfranchised will simply throw up their hands and say "why bother?" McCain would be preferable to the Clintons or Obama only on the issue of national security. On most other issues, there is virtually little difference.

;Well I doubt McCain is going to be the nominee. There is a lot of difference between what McCain would do and Hillary. Hillary is a self-avowed socialist (er, progressive). Sorry you can't see that. Luckily most Republicans can.

Liberal economic policies have dominated Washington ever since George W. Bush was elected. The government continues to pump worthless money into the economy just like they did this week with the cut in interest rates, which only makes the problem worse. The economy should be controlled by the free market, not the government. This is just another example of the Communism that has been taking over America.

Ahh, Topic #4. The Evil of Fiat Money. Ron Paul is your candidate!! Liberal Economic Policies have dominated Washington since FDR, friend.

Yet, the American voters are still too ignorant to see it and continue voting for these liberals in both parties who are driving the country straight into Communism. The Democrat plan of dumbing down America over the past couple of generations has been successful. It's too late now to re-educate the people, because it has become too widespread. I'm afraid we have already lost the country.

Ok, you go into a long rant about America going Communist here. My suggestion would be to outline your next essay before you write it. This one is all over the place. Also, maybe you should move then, somewhere where the elections are more fair. As you have very dark views of the USA's future. While all these horrors have been going on we've had ANOTHER decade of massive prosperity in the USA.

We have tried to warn them for decades but they wouldn't listen.

Yep, we just keep building stuff and selling it and paying our bills and buying bigger houses, larger TV's to watch the NFL on and more expensive educations for our kis. For decades. It's horrible, really!

With Fred Thompson now out of the race, I'm almost ready to switch my support to Ron Paul and throw them a real turkey. His foreign policy is a disaster but he's a strict constitutionalist and will veto every bill the Congress tries to pass that includes unconstitutional spending, which is just about all of them.

Yes, I thought so. You should, it fits in with your belief that elections are about expressing yourself by voting for the candidate you like the most.

I'm starting to think now that this may be the time for a mass exodus from the Republican party and the right time to form a 3rd party of conservatives, but without the antiwar, anti-defense, blame America first attitude of the Paul Libertarians.

So big government is good for defense, but not for domestic spending?

Conservatives are loyal to their values and beliefs, not to a political party. The Republican Party no longer shares those values and beliefs and no longer deserves the support of conservatives. I will reregister as an independent voter until I see a third party emerge that represents my beliefs. In the meantime, I consider myself just another disenfranchised conservative voter.

Go for it! The Constitution Party and Libertarian Party both seem like they might appeal to you. But maybe not. Start a 4th or 5th Conservative party. Have fun!

70 posted on 01/25/2008 5:48:29 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Graybeard58

Great article. Thanks for posting it.


71 posted on 01/25/2008 5:53:30 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Dianna

My primary isn’t until May 20th. By then, the real process will be over. I’m being disenfranchised.
I wouldn’t be so sure. The way things are shaping up the Ohio primary may loom large.


72 posted on 01/25/2008 5:56:17 AM PST by painter
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To: Graybeard58
If we are ever again to have fair elections in this country, then primary elections are going to have to be standardized and held on the same day in all states

Standardized. Yes.

Scheduled by the national party, not by the state organizations. Yes.

All on the same day. No way.

That last would lead to excluding anyone without a massive bank account. It is actually a good thing that the primaries are spread out over a longer period. Early contests in places like Iowa demonstrate the ability to organize and campaign -- they serve as good weeding out processes the thin the field to serious contenders. They also don't require having to raise huge amounts of money to even play the game; winning early can lead to funding to compete the rest of the way.

But the process does need fixing. Non-Republicans should not be selecting the Republican nominee. Period. The party should rotate which states get the early primaries to assure more representative and balanced views, and rewarding states who have done better at expanding or maintaining the party in recent elections over those that have gone more "blue".

73 posted on 01/25/2008 5:57:55 AM PST by kevkrom (Voters say they want substance, but then they just vote for the guy with nice hair instead.)
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To: Graybeard58
primary elections are going to have to be standardized and held on the same day in all states,

This is the exact point I have been making to anyone who will listen. Excellent analysis in this article.

74 posted on 01/25/2008 6:01:30 AM PST by McGruff (Fred Thompson. The last hope for conservatism.)
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To: kevkrom
But the process does need fixing. Non-Republicans should not be selecting the Republican nominee. Period.

*******************

I absolutely agree.

75 posted on 01/25/2008 6:02:28 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: All

The RNC should punish these states by taking away ALL of their delegates.. not just some of them. They should not be allowed to hold these primaries whenever they want.


76 posted on 01/25/2008 6:02:31 AM PST by aj7360
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To: Jack Black

We just had our last decade of Prosperity too.


77 posted on 01/25/2008 6:13:40 AM PST by Halgr (Once a Marine, always a Marine - Semper Fi)
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To: Finny

“The Federal government thinks it is immoral for an employer to fire an employee for being gay. So you own a shop, you hire a 23-year-old kid who seems okay, but after awhile starts wearing his sexuality on his sleeve, swishing and sashing (he thinks it’s so cute). You know he’s a confused mixed-up kid who needs to learn the hard realities of moral life, and you’re hoping and betting that left to his own, in ten years the kid will regard this bizarre rebellious “walk on the wild side” as an embarrassing phase. You’d love to fire the kid, and it would probably be the best thing for him. But the Federal Government thinks that’s immoral, and you can’t.”

You didn’t once mention how the proverbial “gay kid”’s job performance was like. Firing a kid for being a flamboyant homosexual IS big government, only you’re bringing the concept of big government to a business.


78 posted on 01/25/2008 6:15:39 AM PST by TypeZoNegative (I'm An American Engaged To Another American, we're not a mixed couple.)
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To: Darkwolf377
Reality is that the average American believes that big government is there, so we might as well get OUR share. And that spells the death of conservative government.

That's also the real reason blacks are 95% loyal to the Democratic Party, no matter what "racist" imagery is employed. They've essentially been promised guaranteed government money/jobs/benefits with no strings attached. Republicans won't make that promise, but talk in more realistic terms of "opportunity" (work) and "freedom" (responsibility) that just can't trump that golden promise of a free ride. Republicans aren't going to make any headway among blacks by talking about Robert Byrd's past or "the Democrat plantation" - blacks went there voluntarily.

Hispanic immigrants are now starting to get sucked into this same unsustainable lie - and I expect within a decade we are going to see their support for Democrats at about 85%.

I think we are already past the 50% level of citizens who think they are owed a living by the government. It isn't even possible to educate them otherwise any more - it would take a decade of televised "fireside chats" on personal economics by a Ronald Reagan-like figure to even make a dent.

79 posted on 01/25/2008 6:16:08 AM PST by Mr. Jeeves ("Wise men don't need to debate; men who need to debate are not wise." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Graybeard58
If we are ever again to have fair elections in this country, then primary elections are going to have to be standardized and held on the same day in all states

I heard what may be a good idea about holding a primary lottery every four years. The lottery would determine the order of eight (or fewer) regional primaries. Northeast, East Coast, South East, Mid West, South, North West, West Coast, South West. Or the regions could be further condensed down to four. It sounded good to me. I'd be interested to see other opinions.
80 posted on 01/25/2008 6:22:26 AM PST by mmichaels1970
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To: mmichaels1970

State with the winning Super Bowl team goes first, runner up second. Winning college teams go 3 and 4.

Just kidding. It’s fun to make up rules for the whole world like Greybeard does! I thought I’d take a shot at it.


81 posted on 01/25/2008 6:29:01 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Don’t I? You think Fred Grandy is conservative? Chuck Grassley? How about a whole host of Midwest “conservatives” looking for a gub’mint handout? These people in Iowa voted for a tax-and-spend, illegals-loving, kids-dog-hanging Clintonite. Period.


82 posted on 01/25/2008 6:29:47 AM PST by OCCASparky (Steely-Eyed Killer of the Deep)
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To: Jack Black

Thanks so much for steering my mind into a completely ridiculous direction. I’m now picturing primaries in some sort of “bracketed” format, office pools, March Madness, etc.


83 posted on 01/25/2008 6:35:13 AM PST by mmichaels1970
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

The large majority of candidates money comes from Corporations. Big business will not give money to politicians who will work against them. The people of the US are screwed when money buys the politicians and all the media coverage.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/industry.asp?txt=Q03&cycle=2008

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/sector.asp?txt=Q03&cycle=2008


84 posted on 01/25/2008 6:55:58 AM PST by seemoAR
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To: Shery

Vote for Fred; he’s still on the ballot.

There is a not unrealistic chance that this will be a disputed convention -— and Fred could very well become the consensus choice -— especially if he has some delegates.


85 posted on 01/25/2008 7:13:37 AM PST by TheThirdRuffian (Don't blame me; I will write in Thompson.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

I have a question: Since Fred is still on the ballot here in TN, what would happen if he actually WON the TN Primary?

and what if it wasn’t just TN? what if he won 2 or 3 states on Super Tuesday?

Wouldn’t the media HAVE to cover that? would it send a message to Fred to get back in? (or atleast state that he is open to being nominated if nobody has the needed amount of delegates?)

Just curious since I am contemplating voting early here in Shelby County.


86 posted on 01/25/2008 7:21:48 AM PST by TheRobb7 (Is the Conservative Movement now just an undertow?)
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To: Shery
I believe Ann Coulter’s “Romney” article was published after Hunter dropped out and Thompson was on his way out or was already out.
87 posted on 01/25/2008 7:25:00 AM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD (nocrybabyconservatives))
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To: TheRobb7

President FRed Thompson

:)

Looks like we are headed to a brokered convention in Sept so FRed could get the GOP nod there if he had a lot of delegates...

On the ballot he has umpteen great TN folks running for a delegate spot and he should have the same in the states where he is on the ballot..

FRedHeads love FRed enough that they would stick with him if it looks good..I hope.. :)

fingies and toesies crossed...

Duncan for VP or Sec of State etc...


88 posted on 01/25/2008 7:44:50 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: panthermom

This year has glaringly illustrated the lop-sided game of primaries/caucuses..

If 22 states can agree to have the primary on the same day then 50 states can...

Disenfranchised ???? The last REAL American citizen/voter, please turn out the lights...


89 posted on 01/25/2008 7:49:35 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Richard Kimball
First, Fred Thompson was the guy who shot Fred Thompson. I liked Fred's positions, but he made a bunch of miscalculations. There was a lot of support for him, but everyone else was running for a year before he laced up his shoes. He campaigned like he was disinterested in the whole process.

OK, here's the deal. Fred Thompson never made any claims other than to be a solid, adult, and rational candidate. The very sort folks claim to want. And he ran as a solid, rational adult.

And yet he couldn't get traction -- the conventional explanation being that he refused to shove roses and chocolates up the arses of the Republican voters.

Well, Fred was in the right on that one. If Republicans need to be wooed like fickle cheerleaders, they deserve the STDs they catch from every fake lounge-lizard who catches their fancy.

Republican voters are the problem. They need to grow up and get serious.

90 posted on 01/25/2008 7:57:01 AM PST by r9etb
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To: P-Marlowe

Unless, opf course, you wanted to vote for a conservative...


91 posted on 01/25/2008 8:02:45 AM PST by moonhawk (Fear and Loathing in '08: Hunter/Thompson)
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To: Graybeard58

Wyoming is a liberal state?


92 posted on 01/25/2008 8:04:18 AM PST by TChris ("if somebody agrees with me 70% of the time, rather than 100%, that doesn’t make him my enemy." -RR)
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No one will ever know just how much support candidates like Hunter & Thompson really had.
Being forced out for a lack of funds doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been the best man to be President.
(& imo this is wrong)
I would like to see all of the primaries held on the same day.


93 posted on 01/25/2008 8:04:47 AM PST by firewalk
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To: r9etb

Sorry the other 90% of us don’t live up to the standards of the FredHeads. Of course the Paulites think 95% of us are wrong. Sigh.

Along with Fred’s “reasonable adult” stands as you call them was he lethargic campaign, lackluster fund raising, inability to connect with voters, 5 year out of politics, refusal to work for votes in several key early states, etc....

But I’m sure you are right. These are actually all the fault of voters, and none reflect on Fred whatsoever.

Why in the world would a brokered convention pick someone who finished so poorly in a number of contests. If we have to choose, I say choose among the leaders, not the losers.


94 posted on 01/25/2008 8:12:57 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Graybeard58
**There is a chance that Romney can hold Republicans together **

I don't think so.

Romney the flip-flopper:


95 posted on 01/25/2008 8:13:31 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: firewalk
I would like to see all of the primaries held on the same day.THINK! Please. You are mad that lack of funds affected Fred and Duncan?? Can you IMAGINE how much money it would take to run in a ALL-USA one-day primary???

The only effect of that would be handing more power to the media than they already have to pick winners by selective coverage and spinning.

The staggered system is the only one that allow lesser known or less well funded candidates to have a shot.

This years surprise winner: Mike Huckabee.

The Media were already for a McCain vs. Rudy race last year. Your poorly thought out all-states primary would have ensured that's what we got on Everybody Tuesday.

UGH! Try again.

96 posted on 01/25/2008 8:16:43 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
What I'm suggesting is not that Fred Thompson was the perfect candidate. Rather, I'm suggesting that the complaints about why he failed to catch on, explain why you (among many others) are complaining about the candidates who are left.

If Republicans can't find themselves a good candidate, blame the Republicans, not the candidates.

97 posted on 01/25/2008 8:18:42 AM PST by r9etb
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To: Jack Black
YOU THINK AGAIN
The media has already picked the candidates.

The staggered system has served one purpose...
to provide a few choice states the chance to advance
their favorite candidates while bankrupting the others.
98 posted on 01/25/2008 8:24:02 AM PST by firewalk
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To: r9etb
You say the conventional wisdom is Fred Lost because:"he refused to shove roses and chocolates up the arses of the Republican voters.... Republicans need to be wooed like fickle cheerleaders ...Republican voters are the problem. They need to grow up and get serious".

I say: Fred ran a crappy campaign. He had good positions but articulated them poorly. He didn't do well in the debates. He entered the campaign too late, and didn't start raising money early enough. He didn't contest early states, the critcal way you overcome a lack of money and name recognition.

My claim is that if Fred had only campaigned as diligently as Romney or Huckabee or even McCain he'd still be in the race. Instead he ran a terrible campaign. Guilianni is the other big underperformer in the race, for some of the same reasons. He ignored the conventional wisdom. (Not a good conservative thing to do, usually). He was wrong. He could easily have finished high in New Hampshire. The "all in" in Florida strategy never made sense. But, that at least was only one big error.

Fred made many errors and in the end it was reasonable for voters to decide that he didn't look organized enough to be POTUS.

In my opinion it had nothing to do with his positions on the issues. I don't think most GOP primary voters are looking for give-aways. I don't think most of the other GOP candidates have promised give-aways. (Though Romney did go there in Michigan about reviving the auto industry. And was savaged for it by many.)

We voters probably deserve blame for some stuff, but Fred's exit is not one of those things.

99 posted on 01/25/2008 8:29:33 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: DeLaine
For God’s sake, will you Republicans LISTEN????????

TO WHAT??????

100 posted on 01/25/2008 8:29:41 AM PST by SwankyC
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