Skip to comments.A Question for FR McCain Detractors
Posted on 02/23/2008 10:56:29 AM PST by Bob J
Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.
FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.
The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.
Allow me to explain.
I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.
As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.
So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.
It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.
Rasmussen General Election
John McCain vs. Barack Obama
Date McCain Obama
02/24/08 46% 44%
02/23/08 46% 43%
I do not want a Republican party cast in the image of Insane John McCain.
Thanks for your response.
I’m, sorry. I forgot about the blue. I’ll keep it in mind in the future.
Don’t confuse pushing for defeat with standing ground against being pushed around by GOP liberals determined to ram their boy down our collective throats. McCain is a poor choice at best. He’s going down in flames in the general election, much to the glee of the Media, DNC, and many a liberal republican. Party on. I’ll help shovel the ashes from the post crash fire.
"So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain?"
I believe I have read most articles posted about McCain. There are some, like you, who post thought out reasonable responses. The there are those who post comments that I believe can be described as that above. I wasn't posting that comment to you but to those who it applied to. If you don't feel it describes you, than it probably doesn't.
The extension to that was people who posted to me saying the pro-vote-McCain crowd was just as nasty. I agree, some were. But I wasn't addressing them at the time. I never said the pro-vote-McCain were angels nor did I deny that there were nasty comments coming from them.
"If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss. It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well."
I stand by this comment, at the time I did not understand the rationale coming from that group. Now I think I have a better grasp on it. I don't feel any better about it but at least I can put it into a framework.
Regarding the "plant" comment, I think it is possible there are people here pushing an anti-GOP agenda (nothing illegal about that but one does have toput those comments into context), but at this point I would expand that to 3rd Party crowd. I don't think it has anything to do with reg dates, some of these people could have been for a long time.
Once again, nothing illegal or immoral about that but pushing an agenda is different than honestly debating an issue, particularly when one talks about principles.
You’re post shows you responding to my #706 but all the references are from my original post. Was this intended?
Is this the question you want me to answer?
“What could a candidate possibly do, that would disqualifiy them as a person you could vote for, just to keep Hillary or Obama out of office?”
I’m, sorry R, this is a “when did you quit beating your wife” question. To me, political philosophy and political reality are two different things. Philosophically we have opinions and standpoints that define us as a citizen and voter. We work and strive hard to get the person that most reflects our own philosophies into positions of power so those philosophies can be put into action.
The political reality is we live in a country of 300 million, each with his or her one set of philosophies. People that think EXACTLY as you or I do might only make up 2-3% of the population. But 2-3% of the vote is never going to get anyone elected. So we join up with others who have some of the same beliefs as we do and pool our votes, so to speak, to elect someone who generally holds enough of the same philosophies of the group as a whole in the hope that we can get a majority to elect them and when they get into power we can get some of things we believe in a reality.
The entire time you got the other 50% who generally disagree with your positions working against you in the hopes that they can get their candidate elected.
But no matter what, you’re not going to get 100% of what you want, the system doesn’t work that way. If you get 80% you’re hitting bullseyes but I would say if you’re getting 50% that makes the overall effort worthwhile.
I have no illusions about politics. National parties have less to do with precisely defined philosophies than about getting their people elected and that has a lot to do with money. The party in power gets the salaries and budgets. I have seen too many people who I thought could make a difference get ground up and spit out by the system.
This is my opinion of most politicians...they’re either a whore going in or a whore going out. Nobody is clean and everyone is compromised to one degree or another.
If you’re lucky enough that “you’re candidate” wins the primary, good going and congrats. But if he doesn’t you’ve got to suck it up and do the best you can with what you got. I wasn’t a GB man and actually I was horrified when he got the nomination...but I wasn’t surprised, he was the lowest common denominator and in a democratic society it is usually the lowest common denominator that can pull in enough support from everyone to hit that 50%+1.
I won’t even go into how much Bush has disappointed me, but I would still vote for him over Kerry because I know I’ll get some of what I want. The bonus withBush is we got Alito and Roberts and the long term value of that cannot be estimated.
So to answer you’re question, I would vote for any candidate that would give me more of what I want than O or H, has a chance at winning and it doesn’t matter what party theyare affiliated with.
Call me a principled conservative but a pragmatic voter.
You have you’re reasons to vote or not vote as do I. You took umbrage at some of my comments and I understand (although I wasn’t directing them at you, I didn’t make that clear) and will have to be more selective regarding my language in the future. But I take a little umbrage at the implication that those of us who have decided to vote for McCain because we’ll get some of what we desire and to keep the dems out of the White House, have abandoned our principles, our philosophies and our honor.
I understand completely when you say you have to vote your conscious, you’re heart. Don’t criticize others for believing they are also voting with a little reality in mind.
I did revert to the paragraph you posted that you said you stood by. I thought it best to address that in order to express my thoughts on where I am at with regard to McCain. By responding to that paragraph I thought I was able to explain in fairly good detainly what I’m coming from.
As for your comments about us only getting 70% and having to realize that’s reality, I do take exception to that. Let me respond to you in the next day or so. I’ll do it here and take a pass on pinging anyone. I’d rather you and I discuss this without other chiming in to take sides.
You have a great evening Bob.
After I got to know the candidates better and a few dropped out, one was too strident, one sided with Code Pink, etc., etc., I narrowed it down to Thompson first and Romney second. As time went by, I actually thought Romney was going to be the nominee, and I was ready to vote for him.
Now it looks like McCain has it sewn up. I must admit that the last time I wrote a reply concerning McCain, I rated him lower than a dog turd. That was before Romney suspended his campaign. A few weeks prior, I wrote in a reply that I would not stay home, that I would go to the polls and vote, and that I would not waste my ballot with a protest vote.
Of all the different political parties out there, the ones that actually have a chance to elect a U.S. President, the Republican Party is the most close to my personal beliefs. The basic Republican ideals are family, God and country, however, not every Republican candidate holds, or for that matter, lives those beliefs.
I personally have my doubts about McCain, mainly that he won't have to give his Inaugural speech from a stretcher. But, if he is the nominee, I will vote for him. I will not stay home and let the socialists/communists/marxists win. I will not cast a protest vote that helps the socialist/communists/marxists win. I will not do it. I will vote, and I will vote for McCain.
Even if it doesnt work out that way and Obamas as much of a disaster as I expect him to be, Id rather see a Democratic disaster for four years, and Id rather see the rest of the GOP learn the lesson to never nominate this kind of moron again.
Ill admit its a gamble, and I might be wrong. I wont be spending any time insulting those who decide to support McCain, but I will defend my position from attacks. If McCain supporters want to keep up their tactics of insulting conservatives who arent on board Im more than happy to reciprocate.
These are my feelings too & many of us here at FR who will not give in to the republican party & vote for whomever the MSM decide should be our candidate.
I'm tired of the liberal media deciding for us!
I will vote for the congressional candidates next November & hope to put some more republicans back in office, but will not vote for President! This is simply a choice between all libs, there is no conservative running!
Why, have Obama and Her Heinous done that, yet? How will THEY be on amnesty for illegal immigrants?
I will do the same.
Not eight years, well OK 7+, years of difficult. The Bush Administration has fought the war on the cheap. A lot of the blame for that goes to Rumsfeld of course, but ultimately the President is supposed to be the leader.
But there other hundreds of thousands who never got a chance to cast an effective vote against him. Such the voters in Texas and Ohio, among others. This was due, in part, to the order of the primaries, which had mostly liberal or less conservative states up front. This eliminated many of the Conservative candidates as they lost momentum, and funding. That and the MSM, and many here as well, tendency to treat elections as horse races.
You expect the leader of the Gang of 14 to appoint strict constructionist judges and justices, when he can't even understand "Congress shall make no law"?
Not in the mold of McCain. More like GWB or even GHWB.
It is not a matter of cost but manpower. We do not have the size of the ground forces we used to. When you retire divisions they are not reconsituted overnight. W’s father had reduced the size of the Army from 21 to 15 divisions after the fall of the Soviet Union. Bubba went further and cut it to 11. They are rebuilding them but without a draft it takes more time to man, train and reconstitute these forces again.
Any chance that Hillary or Obama will?
Rather than have another 4 or 8 years of one of our own screwing us and backstabbing us, we might as well let one of the socialist rats have it and let the flush go to completion.
At least with one of the commie party scumbags in office, we'd turn to weeding out some of the scum floating on top of the "conservative" movement.
If the 'Rats get to out of hand well, people need to either deal with them or quit whining and accept it. I for one would rather see the endgame play out when I'm 45 or 50 rather than when I'm 90 and 99% of all the people are government tools who've been raised by state schools to believe individualism is evil, 80% marginal tax rates and rationing are "social necessities", and ownership of a firearm is punishable by life in prison...
Mr. McCain is hoist by his own petard.
The Senator who prides himself on being a "Maverick"....now has reaped the whirlwind. He has reaped what he has sown....meet the Maverick Voter.
There are any number of additional reasons to vote against him, his being a communist Manchurian Mole deservedly being highest on the list, but his unabashed HYPOCRISY on all the issues of any real merit has to be a rather close runner up.
Note how he always brags about being the "Mr. Anti-Pork-Barrel" guy. In that capacity, he torpedoed our country getting 100 brand spanking new KC-767 strato tankers to replace the 60 year old KC-135s that our airmen our risking their lives to fly. We would have got those 100 planes for only $18 billion.
Senator "Anti-Pork-Barrel" (along with John Warner) then forced an "open competition" with EADS/Airbus to provide the planes (ostensibly "to get a better price and save the taxpayer's money") , causing a delay of six years in the bidding...and an extra 10 years in deliveries of the first aircraft...
The Air Force ...obviously stalled ....but under intense Senatorial pressure to pick Airbus changed the RFP less than a year ago after 5 years into the competition...(one wonders from where such Senatorial pressure could be coming from, eh?)...to favor a bigger plane the actual logistics folks didn't want.
Now, those 100 planes will cost at least $40 billion.
The KC-45A will cost $35 Million more per plane than Boeing's current proposal, an additional $10 billion in imposed infrastructure costs, and operate with 24% LESS fuel efficiency than the Boeing KC-767.
Meanwhile "Mr. Integrity" is pocketing money from Airbus...
I’m depressed about McCain’s nomination, but I’ll vote for him unless it becomes clear to me that he cannot win. In that case, I’d vote third party.
Using what tactics? You are abrogating the most powerful weapon in the arsenal - refusal to support.
“If you elect McCain as President, he will define conservatism. I am not willing to allow conservatism to mean: pro-amnesty, pro-human-caused Global Warming, anti-first amendment, pro-terrorists-have-civil-rights or any of the other left-wing quackery John McCain has embraced over the years.
I also dont see why I should be expected to be more loyal to the republican party than the candidate we nominated for President.”
Thanks. My sentiments EXACTLY.
I’m sorry, but you are simply peddling the “you have no choice” BS again.
You’re right in one respect - the primaries are the proper time to select a candidate. The race was over before my state’s caucus came around. I had no choice - except to say I could rally for McCain, Huckabee, or Paul. Having no affinity for any of them, I didn’t go to the caucus.
Not caucusing was a choice, just as not supporting is a choice. Neither is particularly savory, as there are always consequences for such choices.
But your way has consequences, too. You try to browbeat others into prostituting their principles (THEIR principles - to make the proper emphasis) based on YOUR proclivities.
McCain was too liberal eight years ago. He has gone further left since then. But you wish to pretend that I (and others like me) are the ones who have departed from “the way”?
No sale, FRiend.
Yes, they do. Primarily, through the actions of the politicians they endorse with their vote.
Your vote for McCain, no matter HOW you spin it, is an endorsement of him as your preferred leader, based on his record.
And if McCain wins without your vote it will only prove politicians don’t need it to win and you will further marginalize yourself.
That is the risk for me, of course. If he wins WITH your vote, and you wish for conservative governance, then you will have marginalized yourself because you will support any candidate based on the initial after their name. That is YOUR risk.
You do what you want Einstein, but if McCain wins without the extreme right by attracting more independent and right leaning dem votes every conservative politician is going to take that cue. The GOP will move even farther to the middle and you and you’re “principled” demagraphic will be left out in the cold looking in for decades to come and all of us will be paying for that.
Somehow I don't believe that is an argument for letting him win at all.
It suggests that we should pull out the stops to make sure he can't.
So are you in essence arguing for conservatives to vote for Hillary or Obama IN THE GENERAL election? Because that is the clear inference if we cannot have integrity in the response of the Party.
Anyways, I am tired of the crocodile tears from RINOs about the poor conservatives becoming orphans.
I note that you are silent about Senator Anti-Pork Barrels little accomplishments to wreck our national defense.
My quota of votes for John McCain while holding my nose is all used up. That’s all I can tell you, old friend.
I have heard this argument before. If McCain wins without our help, he will punish us by ignoring what we want.
I Voted for GW Bush for gov. of Texas and for POTUS twice. I defended him all over the world. Quid pro quo, right? Not necessarily.