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Certifying Parents
Wall Street Journal ^ | 3/22/08

Posted on 03/22/2008 8:02:47 AM PDT by captjanaway

In the annals of judicial imperialism, we have arrived at a strange new chapter. A California court ruled this month that parents cannot "home school" their children without government certification. No teaching credential, no teaching. Parents "do not have a constitutional right to home school their children," wrote California appellate Justice Walter Croskey.

The 166,000 families in the state that now choose to educate their children at home must be stunned. But at least one political lobby likes the ruling. "We're happy," the California Teachers Association's Lloyd Porter told the San Francisco Chronicle. He says the union believes all students should be taught only by "credentialed" teachers, who will in due course belong to unions.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: angrywimmin; california; dumblegunner; education; hesdrunkagain; homeschool; mccain; mumblemutter; mykidsbetterthanyors; shesangryagain
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1 posted on 03/22/2008 8:02:47 AM PDT by captjanaway
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To: captjanaway

The fact is that most people are dumb as posts and have no business trying to teach anything.


2 posted on 03/22/2008 8:04:51 AM PDT by humblegunner ()
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To: humblegunner

The fact is that most people are dumb as posts and have no business trying to teach anything.

that’s what government schools are for.


3 posted on 03/22/2008 8:06:03 AM PDT by tired1 (responsibility without authority is slavery!)
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To: captjanaway

It’s all about the money. California schools get money for everyday a child is in school. Has nothing to do with education. The courts have nothing to say about how a child gets educated.


4 posted on 03/22/2008 8:06:18 AM PDT by RC2
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To: tired1

government schools are why most people are “dumb as posts”


5 posted on 03/22/2008 8:07:19 AM PDT by LOC1
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To: LOC1

Combine that with the idea that most teachers were in school to go into a different career. When they couldn’t qualify for that, they turned to teaching. Look especially at men teachers. What was their major before entering a teachers career?


6 posted on 03/22/2008 8:10:31 AM PDT by RC2
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To: LOC1

I second that


7 posted on 03/22/2008 8:12:47 AM PDT by easternsky
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To: LOC1

government schools are why most people are “dumb as posts”

i used to believe that. now I’m convinced that most people are stupid,lazy or intentionally ignorant. it’s very depressing.


8 posted on 03/22/2008 8:13:38 AM PDT by tired1 (responsibility without authority is slavery!)
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To: tired1

THANKS TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WE ARE HEADED FOR ANOTHER DARK AGES.


9 posted on 03/22/2008 8:14:59 AM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: humblegunner
The fact is that most people are dumb as posts and have no business trying to teach anything.

True, but a teaching certificate does not make that dumb person any smarter. My wife has an ed degree. The classes she took were a joke.

10 posted on 03/22/2008 8:16:29 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: humblegunner
The fact is that most people are dumb as posts and have no business trying to teach anything.

That includes 90% of my kids' teachers.

-ccm

11 posted on 03/22/2008 8:16:37 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: humblegunner

All of the homeschooled children I have known are far and above public schooled children in terms of knowledge, maturity and social skills. (Their teachers must be doing something right.)


12 posted on 03/22/2008 8:19:50 AM PDT by alicewonders (I'm a conservative, and I'm hated by the GOP & the Dems - I must be doing something right!)
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To: alicewonders
All of the homeschooled children I have known are far and above public schooled children in terms of knowledge, maturity and social skills.

And that makes my public schooled kids the ditch diggers of the future, right?

Arrogant homeschool parents can go to hell.

13 posted on 03/22/2008 8:22:18 AM PDT by humblegunner ()
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To: tired1

Capital letters are your friends!


14 posted on 03/22/2008 8:23:29 AM PDT by mommadooo3 (Old concept in justice. If the law won't take care of it, it's just us.)
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To: humblegunner

Grouchy gunner! My kids go to public school too. Why the long face?


15 posted on 03/22/2008 8:24:31 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We deserve the government we allow.)
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To: mommadooo3

Capital letters are your friends!

THANKS! I’LL TRY TO REMEMBER.


16 posted on 03/22/2008 8:25:52 AM PDT by tired1 (responsibility without authority is slavery!)
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To: captjanaway

“do not have a constitutional right to home school their children”

Excuse me? Our rights don’t have to be spelled out in some legal document, they merely exist. The real issue is that the GOVERMENT does not have a constitutional right to be the sole provider of education to children.

This judge should be tarred and feathered. I’ve been watching too much John Adams on HBO.


17 posted on 03/22/2008 8:26:26 AM PDT by ruiner
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To: humblegunner
most people are dumb as posts

And for those people, there's always ed school.

18 posted on 03/22/2008 8:30:54 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Im gonna get me a shotgun and kill all the whiteys I see...)
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To: humblegunner
Arrogant homeschool parents can go to hell.

Well, not only do I know a lot of homeschooled children, but I know a lot of their parents as well - and they've made great sacrifices to homeschool their children. Living on one income & doing without a lot of things, I might add that none of the ones I know are arrogant in any way. They work hard to do what they think is best for their children.

Homeschooled parents can "go to hell"??? That's a damn fine attitude you got there.

19 posted on 03/22/2008 8:31:44 AM PDT by alicewonders (I'm a conservative, and I'm hated by the GOP & the Dems - I must be doing something right!)
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To: humblegunner
Arrogant homeschool parents can go to hell.

Whoa! A bit sensitive on this issue, aren't you?

20 posted on 03/22/2008 8:33:07 AM PDT by dawn53
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To: tired1
My exposure to parents involved with home schooling leads me to believe that these parents do not fall into the 'dumb as posts' category. A strict reading of the US Constitution does not give the Federal government purvue over education, as with all of the other 'rights' it has subsumed cognizance over (health, housing, etc.).

As indicated elsewhere in this thread, the 'real' motive here is money and power, money to continue their reign and power to control the lives of others. Nothing else.

21 posted on 03/22/2008 8:35:09 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: humblegunner
And that makes my public schooled kids the ditch diggers of the future, right?

Arrogant homeschool parents can go to hell.

Easy there FRiend.

Most of the home schooling parents do so because they don't want their kids to study the many wonders of the homosexual life style (starting with gay picture books in kindergarten, google "king and king," it's given to kindergartners in Massachusetts).

They also want to avoid an environment where their child can be punished for quietly reading the Bible at lunch even though the five pillars of Islam are taught in class (including a requirement to take a Muslim name and extra credit for fasting during Ramadan).

I've known parents who home school. The ones I've known didn't look down on kids who go to public schools or their parents. They do warn the parents of the real dangers present in many (but not all) public schools.

22 posted on 03/22/2008 8:40:40 AM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: RC2

Look especially at men teachers. What was their major before entering a teachers career?
____________
Uh, PE?


23 posted on 03/22/2008 8:46:01 AM PDT by lp boonie (Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement)
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To: captjanaway

I haven’t been able to track down this information for myself yet, but James Dobson said that there were actually three judges who made this decision, and one of them was the judge in the Michael Newdow case. If I heard correctly, that judge ruled that parents have no rights once their children enter the doors of public school, and with this new ruling, parents, apparently, don’t have rights even within their own homes. Insane, but pretty much what you’d expect from leftists.


24 posted on 03/22/2008 8:47:54 AM PDT by ChocChipCookie (Homeschool like your kids' lives depend on it.)
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To: humblegunner
The fact is that most people are dumb as posts and have no business trying to teach anything.

The fact is that most teachers are dumber than the collegiate clay from which they were dug. I graduated with from a school with an education program that had the highest NCATE accreditation scores for decades of all NCATE-accredited public and private education programs in 37 states. I knew what was coming out of there and I could only wonder at what must be coming out of the bottom of the barrel programs. My experience with many, many teachers over the 30 years since then has given me the answer: general earnestness about teaching and a desire to fit in with the union's position does not make up for lack of knowledge and deficiency of intellect.
25 posted on 03/22/2008 8:48:42 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan
I graduated with from

Editing error.
26 posted on 03/22/2008 8:49:49 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: captjanaway
When I look at the utter incompetents the "certified" teachers crank out by the hundreds, I fail to see what harm, if any, that homeschooling can possibly have on children.

And let us not forget that parenting is the most important job in anyone's life...and it will always be left to amateurs.

27 posted on 03/22/2008 8:53:22 AM PDT by Digital Sniper (Hello, "Undocumented Immigrant." I'm an "Undocumented Border Patrol Agent.")
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To: humblegunner
Why the huge chip on your shoulder?

Personally, the greatest arrogance is the public school system that pushes a leftist agenda and acts like it should be the final arbiter on what children learn and when, even if it runs directly counter to the wishes of the parents.

28 posted on 03/22/2008 8:56:12 AM PDT by Digital Sniper (Hello, "Undocumented Immigrant." I'm an "Undocumented Border Patrol Agent.")
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To: humblegunner

“Arrogant homeschool parents can go to hell.”

wow. Hate much ?


29 posted on 03/22/2008 8:57:34 AM PDT by stompk
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To: ChocChipCookie

And this entire ruling was due to abuse in the family. Excuse me, but couldn’t the kids still be abused AFTER SCHOOL HOURS? And don’t most abused kids go to public school (just by sheer stat numbers)?

This was a horrible decision.


30 posted on 03/22/2008 8:58:02 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: humblegunner

The data on the achievements of homeschool kids argues against your bias.


31 posted on 03/22/2008 8:58:42 AM PDT by G Larry (HILLARY CARE = DYING IN LINE!)
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To: Straight Vermonter
True, but a teaching certificate does not make that dumb person any smarter.

Nor does it mean that one can actually impart knowledge competently, nor does it mean that one can control or motivate a classroom of 30 hyperactive and easily distracted kids. It merely means that you sat through the requisite number of credit hours, and gave a state college enough money.

My wife has an ed degree. The classes she took were a joke.

Agree 100%. In all of my Ed classes, I only picked up two pieces of practical knowledge, both from a seasoned full-time HS teacher who was a Harley riding bouncer in his youth, and still had the pony-tailed salt-n-pepper hair. (He taught evening college classes for fun.)
The first was how to break up a fight between two kids who were both bigger than you.
The second was how to make lesson plans that were actually useful. Neither was part of his curriculum. (His room also gave dozens of ideas on how to construct an interesting learning environment.)

The School of Education and the numerous Teacher's Unions were both useless at best, and immense obstacles from time to time, when it came to actually helping a classroom full of children to gain specific pieces of knowledge and concrete thinking skills.

32 posted on 03/22/2008 8:59:09 AM PDT by Teacher317 (Wafa Sultan is my heroine!)
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To: alicewonders
I might add that none of the ones I know are arrogant in any way. They work hard to do what they think is best for their children.

I have seen the "I-can-do-it-better" attitude in almost all aspects of homeschoolers' lives. This confidence could be taken as arrogance, although it is a stretch. Among some of my friends, this misplaced confidence has created problems, often expensive to fix.

However, in their children's education, this attitude is fine. A dedicated, caring, untrained parent can educate a small number of children better than a trained teacher who does not have the same concern for the child and has to deal with 20-30 of them. As a university professor, I would take a homeschooled student over a student from a public school anytime. I have found homeschool students uniformly to have better attitudes, better study habits, and are at least as well-prepared academically.

If Humblegunner doesn't like homeschooling, he doesn't have to homeschool his children. I would assume on this forum that he would at least respect the rights of others to do what they feel is best for them and their family.

33 posted on 03/22/2008 9:34:39 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: CommerceComet
I've known many homeschool parents who have taken their children OUT of public school, not because they could do the job better, but because the job wasn't being done at all. We took one out of first grade, because he was labeled "disordered" and watched, and treated like a freak, but not really taught anything.

Fact is, homeschoolers have an advantage of not having to try to stick their square pegs into round holes.

I have a daughter-in-law teaching 4th grade who is constantly at odds with the other teachers who are spending tons of time on things other than teaching actual content, which she feels is the entire purpose of the school. Her frustration level is so high, she needs time to cool off from the pressure. They won't pay for a workshop to improve teaching techniques for failing students, so she's doing it out of her own pocket and stays after school long hours to help them. There are many, many really dedicated good teachers who care, but administrations and unions don't really support them well.

If my grandson were still in public school, he'd probably be in third grade still, but he's finishing up 7th BECAUSE he doesn't have to fit into a round hole..... We take time to do things right, no matter how many times we have to do it.

I don't think this is arrogance.... but it is determination, and it is love. The schools don't love our children.

34 posted on 03/22/2008 9:55:55 AM PDT by vharlow (http://www.harlowhome.com)
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To: humblegunner
The fact is that most people are dumb as posts and have no business trying to teach anything.

In spite of the fact that the (unionized) education industry agrees with you, unfortunately that also applies to most teachers, who chose the bottom of the rigorous education ladder into which to go. So the "concern" is at best ignorant and at worst self-serving.

The issue is really quite simple. Results is what is paramount.

Compare the achievement of the home-schooled against those from the government schools, and the result speak for themselves.

I should also point out that "not constitutionally guaranteed" also applies to techers' unions...

35 posted on 03/22/2008 10:19:42 AM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: AD from SpringBay
Grouchy gunner! My kids go to public school too. Why the long face?

Just keep in mind that people lash out not at what they believe to be false, but more so from the fear that what they believe might be true --- is not.

36 posted on 03/22/2008 10:22:17 AM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: captjanaway
Parents "do not have a constitutional right to home school their children,"

I've got a copy of the Constitution (subversive that I am, I actually own my own copy, instead of pretending that the liberals own it and get to lecture me from it). According to my copy, the government doesn't have a consitutional right to school my children either. I guess we have a stalemate.

37 posted on 03/22/2008 10:22:28 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (DemocraticUnderground.com is an internet hate site.)
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To: vharlow
I don't think this is arrogance.... but it is determination, and it is love. The schools don't love our children.

I don't think that we are disagreeing about homeschooling. We don't homeschool because we have a good Christian school close by. However, were the situation different, we would homeschool.

There is sometimes misplaced confidence by homeschoolers in their abilities and a distain for experts which I sometimes see as unhealthy in other situations. However, that doesn't apply in homeschooling situations where any dedicated adult can adequately educate young children.

38 posted on 03/22/2008 10:34:13 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: tired1

LOL! Thanks my FRiend!


39 posted on 03/22/2008 10:34:39 AM PDT by mommadooo3 (Old concept in justice. If the law won't take care of it, it's just us.)
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To: captjanaway
Our oldest grandson (nine years old) is homeschooled this year for the first time. And I have the happy responsibility to teach him American history. As a result, he will know more about the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution than he would ever learn in a public school (or university).
40 posted on 03/22/2008 10:56:59 AM PDT by conservativehistorian (.)
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To: humblegunner
And that makes my public schooled kids the ditch diggers of the future, right

Are Most public school teachers are generally C Students from 3rd rate colleges. Those that can't do, teach.

Most home school parents are at least as qualified as public school teachers. Kids do well despite the stilted learning environment. You can go to hell for being too stupid to see that.

41 posted on 03/22/2008 11:06:14 AM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: G Larry
The data on the achievements of homeschool kids argues against your bias.

My bias is based on the posts of arrogant homeschool parents
who praise themselves and their little darlings to the heavens
while implying that my publicly educated kids are substandard.

And they can go to hell.

42 posted on 03/22/2008 11:07:15 AM PDT by humblegunner ()
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To: humblegunner
A bit 'tetchy' about the subject aren't you?

As both a public and private school teacher spanning 1968 - 2000 most of the home school students I knew were at or above grade level academically and socially. The one student who was ill-prepared was the child of moonbeam liberal parents. Many parent who choose public schooling for their children, over-estimate the quality of their children's educational experiences. Parents tend to reassure themselves with the belief that almost all their children's teacher are extraordinary. It reminds of the opening to the corny radio series, 'Lake Woebegone', where all the children are above average.

In the best of circumstances, perhaps one quarter of students have excellent (effective)teachers, and only one quarter are poor (ineffective) teachers. This 25% / 50% / 25% model refers only to the ability for a teacher to teach. It does not refer to the kinds of information taught.

One reason home schoolers tend to be more advanced than their brick and mortar brethren is that they do not waste their valuable time on such things as lining up (5 minutes), attendance (5 minutes), the calendar ritual (20 minutes), waiting for slower students (10 minutes), lining up after recess (5 minutes), class meeting about the use of red rubber balls (20 minutes), distribution of math materials (5 minutes), waiting for slower students (5 minutes), putting away materials and preparing for lunch (10 minutes).

Yes, a first grade child needs to learn the days of the week, and the seasons of the year. Concerning the calendar ritual: it does not take the home schooler one hour and forty minutes each week for thirty-nine weeks to master the subject. The calendar ritual is a part of the school day in classrooms all the way through 4th grade. For a number of teachers calendar time give them more time to do other things, while the student of the day directs the the counting of the days in English and then in Spanish, the months of the year, and the whole class reciting of such exciting facts as, "Yesterday was Monday. Today is Tuesday. Tomorrow is Wednesday." Excuse me for rambling on. My point is that out of five precious hours of class time per day about two hours is wasted on non-educational or minimally educational activities.

The other thing to consider is that the schools you attended as a child and teenager no longer exist. Schools now days are much more agenda driven. No longer is teaching the basic skills of reading, writing and math the first priority. I suggest to all parents to come and spend whole day in your children's classrooms. What you find out might surprise you. Read your children's text books, even their math and spelling books. What agenda is tucked within the pages of those books? What 'untruths' or 'adjusted truths' have been presented as the 'gospel truth'?

43 posted on 03/22/2008 11:13:30 AM PDT by Irish Queen (Nevada Gal)
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To: ruiner
This judge should be tarred and feathered. I’ve been watching too much John Adams on HBO.

***************

Heh. Adams was against the tarring and feathering of the tax collector. :)

44 posted on 03/22/2008 11:14:14 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Irish Queen
Good points, all.

My objection is to the self-congratulatory posts of homeschool parents.

Broken down, they amount to "my kids are SO much better than yours".

This has soured me on the whole concept.

I'm certainly not prepared to agree with them that their kids are superior to mine.

45 posted on 03/22/2008 11:30:08 AM PDT by humblegunner ()
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To: humblegunner
Arrogant homeschool parents can go to hell.

i don't understand why my homeschooling my kids bothers anybody... and it does... i hear it all the time... i don't go around telling people anything about the choices they make in regards to their children's educations... but many people who do not homeschool feel they can just let their opinions about my choice fly out of their mouths... and yet, i'm to sit there and say nothing about their choices... if i do say anything, i am an arrogant homeschooler who can go to hell...

46 posted on 03/22/2008 11:37:57 AM PDT by latina4dubya
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To: latina4dubya
if i do say anything, i am an arrogant homeschooler

Do you teach anything about capitalization and the uses of it?

47 posted on 03/22/2008 11:41:51 AM PDT by humblegunner ()
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To: humblegunner
I recall feeling just as you do. I remember a home school parent being rather arrogant too. Then, I had to remove my son from school (fifth grade), and we couldn't afford a private school, so I did house cleaning on the side, and home schooled my traumatized son. I know I have weaknesses in math, so have tried to over come those weaknesses by utilizing tutors. Now, at 17, my son is well adjusted, is pursuing an apprenticeship, and will soon be ready to take his GED. I know some parents can be off-putting. But, I did what I HAD to do.... and I'm certain you will do what you HAVE to do to be the best parent you can.
Regards,
Yellow Roses
48 posted on 03/22/2008 11:54:40 AM PDT by yellowroses (a Yankee in Texas)
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To: humblegunner
The fact is that most people are dumb as posts and have no business trying to teach anything.

That has been my opinion of most public school teachers. They appear unable to write a complete sentence and unable to convey a coherent thought.

49 posted on 03/22/2008 11:59:11 AM PDT by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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To: alicewonders
All of the homeschooled children I have known are far and above public schooled children in terms of knowledge, maturity and social skills. (Their teachers must be doing something right.)

I am a scoutmaster in a troop of homeschooled boys. They are far beyond their public-schooled peers in every category except two. They are fairly naiven about pop culture and about depravity.

50 posted on 03/22/2008 12:02:09 PM PDT by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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