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Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
Foxnews.com ^ | Wednesday, March 26, 2008 | AP

Posted on 03/26/2008 12:05:07 PM PDT by FewsOrange

An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday. Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday. "She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said. Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said. They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said. Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned. The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."

The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester. Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead. The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said. The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said. "They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. ....

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: faith; neumann
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1 posted on 03/26/2008 12:05:08 PM PDT by FewsOrange
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To: FewsOrange

Uh oh, gonna be a long thread.


2 posted on 03/26/2008 12:07:02 PM PDT by jdm
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To: FewsOrange
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said.

So mid to late 1999, maybe?

3 posted on 03/26/2008 12:07:53 PM PDT by jdm
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To: FewsOrange

Very, very sad. These parents killed their child; they should be punished.


4 posted on 03/26/2008 12:08:04 PM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: FewsOrange; EarthBound

God gave us the ability to understand medicine. They didn’t realize their prayer had been answered eons ago.

::sigh::


5 posted on 03/26/2008 12:08:18 PM PDT by MacDorcha (Arm yourself!)
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To: FewsOrange

How very tragic. I think some people do not understand prayer and how the Lord works.


6 posted on 03/26/2008 12:08:28 PM PDT by twigs
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To: FewsOrange

Sigh...when will people learn that sometimes God heals through the medical professionals...


7 posted on 03/26/2008 12:09:01 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (When life gives you lemons...don't forget the vodka...)
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To: FewsOrange

Sad. Very sad.


8 posted on 03/26/2008 12:09:16 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: snarks_when_bored

They didn’t kill their child. But they were very ignorant.


9 posted on 03/26/2008 12:09:19 PM PDT by twigs
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To: FewsOrange

The problem is, folks like this are why the government is getting involved in people’s private business. The good Lord gave us medical advancements in order to save lives. Folks just need to take advantage of them and quit tempting the Lord with their demands that He work a miracle instead. The medical advancements are the miracle you dingbats.


10 posted on 03/26/2008 12:10:22 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Some think McCain should pick his No 2 now. I thought the nominee was No 2. And that No 1s me off!)
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To: twigs

Willfull neglect of the child’s condition killed her, and the neglectful parties were the parents. Ergo, the parents killed her.


11 posted on 03/26/2008 12:11:04 PM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: FewsOrange

It is great to believe in healing by faith, but when it is not working, there is nothing that forbids the use of doctors.


12 posted on 03/26/2008 12:11:05 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: twigs

You are wrong, they didn’t even do what a child could do and that was to dial 911. Their medical neglect of this child did indeed kill her.


13 posted on 03/26/2008 12:11:46 PM PDT by tioga
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To: snarks_when_bored

And the other, older children will someday (if not now) feel guilt that they didn’t call 911 and get help to their house. How trully sad. What a lovely little girl (here picture is at the Fox link).


14 posted on 03/26/2008 12:13:42 PM PDT by PennsylvaniaMom (Yoi. And double yoi.)
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To: FewsOrange

This almost happened to us 4 years ago with our then 8 year old daughter. She was showing signs, which we found out later, of heading into a ketoacidotic coma. The thankfully empty emergency room immediately diagnosed her and she spent four days in the hospital. Reading this story makes my gut ache.


15 posted on 03/26/2008 12:13:51 PM PDT by Lizavetta
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To: FewsOrange
Ecclesiasticus - Chapter 38

1 Honour the physician for the need thou hast of him: for the most High hath created him. 2 For all healing is from God, and he shall receive gifts of the king. 3 The skill of the physician shall lift up his head, and in the sight of great men he shall be praised. 4 The most High hath created medicines out of the earth, and a wise man will not abhor them. 5 Was not bitter water made sweet with wood?

6 The virtue of these things is come to the knowledge of men, and the meet High hath given knowledge to men, that he may be honoured in his wonders. 7 By these he shall cure and shall allay their pains, and of these the apothecary shall make sweet confections, and shall make up ointments of health, and of his works there shall be no end. 8 For the peace of God is over all the face of the earth. 9 My son, in thy sickness neglect not thyself, but pray to the Lord, and he shall heal thee. 10 Turn away from sin and order thy hands aright, and cleanse thy heart from all offence.

11 Give a sweet savour, and a memorial of fine flour, and make a fat offering, and then give place to the physician. 12 For the Lord created him: and let him not depart from thee, for his works are necessary. 13 For there is a time when thou must fall into their hands: 14 And they shall beseech the Lord, that he would prosper what they give for ease and remedy, for their conversation. 15 He that sinneth in the sight of his Maker, shall fall into the hands of the physician.

16 posted on 03/26/2008 12:14:08 PM PDT by frogjerk (Hope is a theological virtue, not a campaign promise)
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To: FewsOrange
How sad for the family. Even if they had seen a doctor, they may not have taken the drugs, and she still may have died.

James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

They were on the right path.

17 posted on 03/26/2008 12:14:54 PM PDT by Chili Girl
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To: FewsOrange
I believe in the power of prayer and the God can work miracles.

However, parents who avoid medical treatment for their children using prayer as their only treatment should be required to pray for food and water to appear in their jail cell. No substance should be given them.

Matthew 4:7

18 posted on 03/26/2008 12:15:07 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: FewsOrange

Nut cases.

“apparently they didn’t have enough faith,”

That’s why they needed a doctor.


19 posted on 03/26/2008 12:16:05 PM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: PennsylvaniaMom

Correct on both counts.


20 posted on 03/26/2008 12:17:26 PM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: Lizavetta
This almost happened to us 4 years ago with our then 8 year old daughter.

And to us, with our son. DKA is a VERY frightening thing.... Nothing worse than hearing that Kussmaul breathing.

21 posted on 03/26/2008 12:17:33 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: snarks_when_bored

Should the state have taken the child from the parents for medical care? I think not.

These parents are idiots, but what punishment can be justified?


22 posted on 03/26/2008 12:18:26 PM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: frogjerk
What bible are you using? There is no Ecclesiasticus - Chapter 38 in the KJV.
23 posted on 03/26/2008 12:18:38 PM PDT by Chili Girl
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To: Chili Girl
What bible are you using? There is no Ecclesiasticus - Chapter 38 in the KJV.

Exactly.

24 posted on 03/26/2008 12:20:44 PM PDT by frogjerk (Hope is a theological virtue, not a campaign promise)
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To: FewsOrange

St. Paul, in the Bible, counsels the use of means other than “faith” for dealing with ailments...

“No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.”

-1 Timothy 5:23


25 posted on 03/26/2008 12:22:30 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: FewsOrange

Sad.


26 posted on 03/26/2008 12:23:06 PM PDT by Dante3
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To: Retired Greyhound
Should the state have taken the child from the parents for medical care? I think not.

The state—or even concerned friends and neighbors—ought to stand in loco parentis if the parents are non compos mentis (which these parents appear to be). If not, who will save the child?

And the idea that the remaining children in the home are not in danger is ludicrous.

27 posted on 03/26/2008 12:23:22 PM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: DoughtyOne

I had a 2nd cousin years ago...at age 19...married some guy who was like these parents. The cousin had a very similar condition as this young girl in the story. The husband, his family and the local church all got involved. They spent six months convincing the cousin to lay off the meds (this was around 1980). So the day came when my cousin quit the meds to make the husband happy. After ten days...she had issues. By the 20th day...she was having major issues. Someone in her family happened to come along...noted the health situation...and physically took her to the emergency room. The husband and his family were furious at the interference and violating “God’s will”. My cousin’s dad got involved and kinda laid out the situation...threatening action by the local county sheriff. The marriage ended a month or two later. This was in Alabama.

My guess...across the US on any given month...at least three hundred people die from this “God’s will” bunch. In most caes...its not obvious and no one says much about it.


28 posted on 03/26/2008 12:25:20 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: Chili Girl

“They were on the right path.”

????

HUH???


29 posted on 03/26/2008 12:25:20 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: frogjerk
What bible are you using? There is no Ecclesiasticus - Chapter 38 in the KJV. Exactly.

http://www.biblicalproportions.com/modules/ol_bible/King_James_Bible/Ecclesiasticus/38
30 posted on 03/26/2008 12:28:26 PM PDT by FewsOrange
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To: Chili Girl

Pride you took
Pride you feel
Pride that you felt when youd kneel

Not the word
Not the love
Not what you thought from above

It feeds
It grows
It clouds all that you will know
Deceit
Deceive
Decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail

Follow the God that failed

Find your peace
Find your say
Find the smooth road in your way

Trust you gave
A child to save
Left you cold and him in grave

It feeds
It grows
It clouds all that you will know
Deceit
Deceive
Decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail

Follow the God that failed

I see faith in your eyes
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail

Follow the God that failed

Pride you took
Pride you feel
Pride that you felt when youd kneel

Trust you gave
A child to save
Left you cold and him in grave

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by deepened nail

Follow the God that failed


31 posted on 03/26/2008 12:31:08 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: pepsionice

It’s sickening and sad quite honestly.

We have Free Will. We are taught to Help Ourselves.

Do whatever it takes to help those who are sick. It’s no different than trying to save someone who is about to be shot in the head.

You could do nothing and just claim “it’s God’s Will”.


32 posted on 03/26/2008 12:32:55 PM PDT by rom (Real Conservatives don't vote for Socialists with an (R) next to their name.)
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To: FewsOrange
A Christian is studying the Bible in his living room, when there is a knock on the door. When he opens the door, it is a policeman, who informs him that the rivers are rising, a flood is expected, and evacuation is recommended.

The man explains, "I believe in God. I am sure he will protect me from danger."

The policeman shrugs his shoulders and leaves.

As the man is watching the rising water getting closer and closer to his house, there is a second knock, this time a State Trooper. The trooper says, "We are evacuating the area as the flood is getting serious and you are in jeopardy." Again the man explains, "I believe in God. I am sure he will protect me from danger. I am staying."

Well, the water continues to rise, until the man is forced to stay on the second floor. He hears some yelling and looks up to see two firemen in a rowboat right outside his second floor window.

One of the firemen calls, "Get in the boat, the rains are not letting up! It's getting serious."

"I believe in God. He will protect me from danger. I'll stay."

The firemen, fearing for their own safety, row on.

As the flood rises, the man is forced to climb out onto his roof, just as a helicopter is flying over. The helicopter drops a rope ladder and a voice calls down, "We're coming to get you!"

"No, no.... God will protect me. You go on."

Well, needless to say, the water continues to rise and the man drowns. When he gets to Heaven, he is really upset. "I must see God," says the man. "Please take me to God." He is granted an audience with God.

"Lord," says the man, "after a lifetime of devotion to you, why would you forsake me in my moment of need?"
God says, "I sent two cops, a rowboat full of firemen, and a helicopter...."

33 posted on 03/26/2008 12:36:25 PM PDT by frogjerk (Hope is a theological virtue, not a campaign promise)
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To: FewsOrange
For some reason, this story reminded me of the story of the farmer in the flood:

A farmer is in Iowa during a flood. The river is overflowing, with water surrounding the farmer's home up to his front porch. As he is standing there, a boat comes up, The man in the boat says "Jump in, I'll take you to safety."

The farmer crosses his arms and says stubbornly, "Nope, I put my trust in God."

The boat goes away. The water rises to the second floor. Another boat comes up, the man says to the farmer who is now in the second story window, "Jump in, I'll save you."

The farmer again says, "Nope, I put my trust in God."

The boat goes away. Now the water is up to the roof. As The farmer stands on the roof, a helicopter comes over, and drops a ladder. The pilot yells down to the farmer "I'll save you, climb the ladder."

The farmer says "Nope, I put my trust in God."

The helicopter goes away. The water continues to rise and sweeps the farmer off the roof. He drowns.

The farmer goes to heaven. God sees him and says "What are you doing here?"

The farmer says "I put my trust in you and you let me down."

God says, "What do you mean, let you down? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!!!"

I guess both stories have the same point: we have God's help available when we need it - we merely need to look and understand that it may not exactly be what we are expecting!

34 posted on 03/26/2008 12:38:17 PM PDT by Andonius_99 (There are two sides to every issue. One is right, the other is wrong; but the middle is always evil.)
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To: snarks_when_bored

It can now be easily demonstrated that the remaining children are in real danger.

Giving the state the kind of power to remove the child before this girls death is risky. They should have to meet a very high standard.


35 posted on 03/26/2008 12:38:45 PM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: SoothingDave

Interesting story behind that Metallica song.


36 posted on 03/26/2008 12:41:10 PM PDT by frogjerk (Hope is a theological virtue, not a campaign promise)
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To: Chili Girl

It’s in the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, not in Protestant ones.


37 posted on 03/26/2008 12:42:55 PM PDT by Valpal1 (OW! My head just exploded!)
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To: frogjerk

I reckon that James growing up with Christian Scientist parents saw a thing or two.


38 posted on 03/26/2008 12:43:22 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Retired Greyhound
Giving the state the kind of power to remove the child before this girls death is risky. They should have to meet a very high standard.

We agree there. Fortunately, parents who do this sort of thing are rare.

39 posted on 03/26/2008 12:45:37 PM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: snarks_when_bored
Your post brings up several questions...

Even if a friend, neighbor, someone from the public school she had attended, stepped in and the girl received emergency care, would the subsequent diabetes treatments (meds) have been followed when she had been returned back to her parents. Or would the parents have renounced the 'state's treatment' and not given the meds (causing the same outcome). So not knowing if the parents would adminster treatment, would it be safe to say that the child should have been taken into custody by the state. But then child protection authorities would be made out to be overstepping their bounds by taking the child out of a prayerful home. When infact, state intervetnion would have saved her life. I can see how that scenario could have been played out. Sadly, though, no one outside of the family knew of her detriorating condition and help was called too late.

40 posted on 03/26/2008 12:47:57 PM PDT by PennsylvaniaMom (Yoi. And double yoi.)
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To: Andonius_99

Beat you by almost 2 minutes.


41 posted on 03/26/2008 12:48:40 PM PDT by frogjerk (Hope is a theological virtue, not a campaign promise)
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To: Retired Greyhound

I can’t believe custody actions haven’t been taken yet on the remaining children.


42 posted on 03/26/2008 12:49:16 PM PDT by PennsylvaniaMom (Yoi. And double yoi.)
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To: FewsOrange
I just wrote about another one, but of a 15 month old, in Oregon. Right in a Left World: Church Withholds Medical Care, Child Dies
43 posted on 03/26/2008 12:50:41 PM PDT by DakotaRed (Keep following the media as they sell out America)
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To: frogjerk

guess that’s what I get for having slow fingers, lol... :)


44 posted on 03/26/2008 12:52:18 PM PDT by Andonius_99 (There are two sides to every issue. One is right, the other is wrong; but the middle is always evil.)
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To: snarks_when_bored

This is a unique case, but there are WAY too many delinquent parents in general.

Any idiot can have a baby...it just requires sex


45 posted on 03/26/2008 12:53:14 PM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: FewsOrange

“Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help”

Someday these cultists will learn that doing BOTH is much better than watching your child DIE!


46 posted on 03/26/2008 12:54:26 PM PDT by Grunthor (John McCain just went to theMiddle East where he demonstrated he doesn’t know a Shiite from Shinola)
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To: PennsylvaniaMom

You raise good points, PM. In all such matters, there are limits to what legislation and government intervention (or even intervention by private interested parties of good will) can accomplish. In truth, children are usually at the mercy of their parents, and if they have the bad luck to have lousy parents, it’s often a bit of a miracle if they make it through to healthy, sane adulthood.


47 posted on 03/26/2008 12:55:48 PM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: Retired Greyhound

“Giving the state the kind of power to remove the child before this girls death is risky. They should have to meet a very high standard”

I’d say a childs DEATH is pretty damned high, wouldn’t you?


48 posted on 03/26/2008 12:55:53 PM PDT by Grunthor (John McCain just went to theMiddle East where he demonstrated he doesn’t know a Shiite from Shinola)
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To: snarks_when_bored

That is the point I was trying to get at...this poor child was doomed. Other than contacting Child Welfare, no other real intervention could be made by anyone. Just heartbreaking.


49 posted on 03/26/2008 12:59:02 PM PDT by PennsylvaniaMom (Yoi. And double yoi.)
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To: Retired Greyhound

“but what punishment can be justified?”

I believe they still send people to prison for child neglect leading to that childs’ death.


50 posted on 03/26/2008 12:59:20 PM PDT by Grunthor (John McCain just went to theMiddle East where he demonstrated he doesn’t know a Shiite from Shinola)
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