Posted on 03/30/2008 12:35:05 PM PDT by buccaneer81
Openly carrying gun not a crime Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:43 AM By Bill Bush THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
In the political tussle over Ohio's concealed-carry gun law, one fact seems to have been overlooked by many: You never needed a permit to carry a gun in public, and you still don't --- you just can't conceal it.
As long as you haven't been convicted of a felony, if you want to wear a pistol on your belt or walk around town carrying a shotgun, Ohio has no law against it.
But if you do, don't be surprised if you get some unwanted attention from police officers.
Philip Turner, 30, discovered that in July when he walked from his Hilliard apartment to his parked truck wearing a gun on his belt. At the time, Turner worked protecting banks' ATMs as they were serviced and delivering diamonds to jewelry stores.
An undercover agent with the Ohio Investigative Unit -- the police agency that enforces the state's alcohol, tobacco and food-stamp laws -- saw the gun and quickly ordered him against his truck with his hands on his head.
"He came up and treated me like a felon for absolutely no reason at all," Turner said. "There wasn't even a suspicious action on my part to warrant him taking this action against me. Had I been out waving a gun around the parking lot, (then) yeah."
After being detained for about 30 minutes, and after Hilliard police arrived at the agent's request, Turner was released without charges. An internal investigation that concluded this week found that neither Agent Timothy Gales, who had stopped Turner, nor his partner, Betty Ford, did anything wrong.
However, it also revealed that Gales did not know it was legal for Turner to carry a gun openly, said Lindsay Komlanc, spokeswoman for the state Department of Public Safety. As a result, more than 100 agents in the unit are to attend a mandatory refresher course on Ohio's gun laws over the next couple of months, she said.
They might be surprised at what's legal.
The investigation report said that, weeks before Turner was stopped, agents stopped a 13- or 14-year-old boy who was carrying a rifle in public. They called his mother, who retrieved the gun. Then they called a supervisor to figure out what charge to file against the boy.
The answer: nothing. The supervisor advised them that "it was their right to carry a gun openly and they were allowed to do this," according to the report.
Ohio law says you can't sell a gun to people younger than 18 or provide them with one, except for "hunting, sporting or educational purposes," said Lt. Shawn Davis of the State Highway Patrol. A child must take a gun-safety course before going hunting, Davis added.
It's not illegal "that we see" for a juvenile of any age to carry a gun in public, said Jennifer Brindisi, a spokeswoman for the Ohio attorney general's office.
Turner, who has a license to carry a concealed gun, said he was carrying his gun openly "because it's my right. I choose to exercise my right to protect myself." He doesn't know whether the two agents pulled their guns; he was instructed not to face them. The agents told investigators they didn't.
But it wouldn't be unreasonable for officers to draw their guns until they know what the situation is, said Sgt. Rich Weiner of the Columbus Police Division.
"The first thing we need to address: This man has a gun," Weiner said. "We're going to pull our guns.
"As a police officer, we also have the right to protect ourselves and protect the public, so we do have the right to disarm him momentarily. Now everybody is a little bit more at ease. We don't have a potential weapon being used against an officer or anybody else."
If your open display of a firearm is causing panic, you could be charged with inducing panic, Weiner said. If you carry it onto private property, you could be charged with trespassing, he said.
Komlanc of Public Safety wouldn't say why the agents and a police dive team were at Turner's apartment complex last July because the case is continuing.
bbush@dispatch.com
New Mexico has always had an open carry law, as long as the firearm is visible from three sides. Along with that, a firearm can be carried concealed, providing it is empty, but the clip can be handy. A firearm can be carried concealed in an automobile, since your car is regarded as private property, like your house. We also have concealed carry now, so everyone is covered, with or without a permit. I would feel much safer, if everyone exercised their right to carry, open or concealed.
Actually there were two officers involved. If you'd actually read the article you'd know that.
And apparently the actions of these two abysmally ignorant LEO's uncovered a serious departement wide training defect.
But why let a couple of facts spoil a good knee jerk reaction on your part.
L
Some guy tried to challenge it by announcing that he was going to walk to the State Capital and go around the block with a pistol in it’s holster. He was arrested for violating the ordinance. He later ran for governor and lost.
I wish I was on that jury.
Interesting. You've gotten several responses from other posters asking where the bashing is. You've had posters tell you that you're wrong. As I said. This ONE cop was ignorant of the law. Ever heard that old saying? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse?" Well it should apply to everyone, including LEOs.
You're just making yourself look foolish here, and frankly, you don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that you're wrong.
Cops aren't saints. As I said, there are good and bad, as in any line of work. What this ONE did was wrong, and a violation of a citizen's rights, because the cop was ignorant. Period. Not any other cop. Not his entire agency. HIM.
Whereas I see it as "open carry" that is just a little harder for a pickpocket or mugger to snatch. Sort of open with some (dis)assembly required; a layer of safety, no? In a busy city you might not want to be TOO open.
Anyhoo, if people can easily see it, how can they call it concealed?
An undercover agent with the Ohio Investigative Unit — the police agency that enforces the state’s alcohol, tobacco and food-stamp laws — saw the gun and quickly ordered him against his truck with his hands on his head.
I would sue this state. I would sue this man so hard that his descendants 100 years from now would STILL tell the story of how the family became permanently destitute.
There was an idiot Homicide detective who decided to play hero with me
while I was doing body work on my bosses Corvette. He pulled his
.45 and stuck it in my face after sneeking up behind me. I had no idea
this guy was a cop and I reacted by disarming him in an instant.
His supervisor was a good friend of mine, and he was desked until he received
training that they said would probably save his life. His career didn't go far.
“reasonable cause” should be “probable cause” PIMF
I agree with you. But I've seen examples of prosecutorial "interpretation" up close and personal. Some prosecutors are as low as some defense attorneys.
He is an undercover agent with the Ohio Investigative Unit this officer doesn't need to know any of the Federal Regs just the ones from the Ohio and its not like it's a trick question it's pretty straight forward .
“As a police officer, we also have the right to protect ourselves from the public.”
How is a man carrying openly, not hiding his weapon, any threat to you or anyone else?
You did everyone a public service.
“So basically you posted this to bash law enforcement officers. Golly you are cool.”
So now stating a FACT about the lack of knowledge of the law by police officers is “bashing?”
>I am less certain of the wisdom, if not legality, of a minor carrying a weapon under the same circumstances in which an adult can. A 14 year old walking around town with a rifle is a little scary. Maybe I am missing something. In the woods, hunting, yeah. On a subway, I might avoid the yout.<
Not me. I want to be standing right beside the young fella. If he makes the wrong move, I’ll either disarm or kill him before he can kill anyone else but if he’s got the proper safety attitude regarding firearms, I might just buy his next box of ammo.
“If you carry it in a see-through handbag or a clear plastic raincoat, is it concealed or open?”
IIRC in Washington state it’s if the weapong can be seen and/or quickly put to use. It’s been some years since I read about it though.
I am willing to bet that most LEO’s get more training in cultural sensitivity than they do on open carry laws.
I would probably carry the text of the law with me or paint the numbers on the side of the tractor for the Officer to look up in his handbook.
Consider the recent instances of motorists being TASERed during a routine traffic stop, SWAT teams kicking in the wrong door in the middle of the night, etc?
(Full disclosure here: I am a “Law & Order” type of guy, USMC veteran with a totally clean police record. However, someone comes kicking down my door in the middle of the night, shouting rapid-fire, unintelligible commands then I may just react before fully identifying the speaker.)
As to the subject of this post, if it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to openly carry a firearm, then why the “Up against the wall, redneck” treatment?
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