Skip to comments.Openly carrying gun not a crime
Posted on 03/30/2008 12:35:05 PM PDT by buccaneer81
Openly carrying gun not a crime Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:43 AM By Bill Bush THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
In the political tussle over Ohio's concealed-carry gun law, one fact seems to have been overlooked by many: You never needed a permit to carry a gun in public, and you still don't --- you just can't conceal it.
As long as you haven't been convicted of a felony, if you want to wear a pistol on your belt or walk around town carrying a shotgun, Ohio has no law against it.
But if you do, don't be surprised if you get some unwanted attention from police officers.
Philip Turner, 30, discovered that in July when he walked from his Hilliard apartment to his parked truck wearing a gun on his belt. At the time, Turner worked protecting banks' ATMs as they were serviced and delivering diamonds to jewelry stores.
An undercover agent with the Ohio Investigative Unit -- the police agency that enforces the state's alcohol, tobacco and food-stamp laws -- saw the gun and quickly ordered him against his truck with his hands on his head.
"He came up and treated me like a felon for absolutely no reason at all," Turner said. "There wasn't even a suspicious action on my part to warrant him taking this action against me. Had I been out waving a gun around the parking lot, (then) yeah."
After being detained for about 30 minutes, and after Hilliard police arrived at the agent's request, Turner was released without charges. An internal investigation that concluded this week found that neither Agent Timothy Gales, who had stopped Turner, nor his partner, Betty Ford, did anything wrong.
However, it also revealed that Gales did not know it was legal for Turner to carry a gun openly, said Lindsay Komlanc, spokeswoman for the state Department of Public Safety. As a result, more than 100 agents in the unit are to attend a mandatory refresher course on Ohio's gun laws over the next couple of months, she said.
They might be surprised at what's legal.
The investigation report said that, weeks before Turner was stopped, agents stopped a 13- or 14-year-old boy who was carrying a rifle in public. They called his mother, who retrieved the gun. Then they called a supervisor to figure out what charge to file against the boy.
The answer: nothing. The supervisor advised them that "it was their right to carry a gun openly and they were allowed to do this," according to the report.
Ohio law says you can't sell a gun to people younger than 18 or provide them with one, except for "hunting, sporting or educational purposes," said Lt. Shawn Davis of the State Highway Patrol. A child must take a gun-safety course before going hunting, Davis added.
It's not illegal "that we see" for a juvenile of any age to carry a gun in public, said Jennifer Brindisi, a spokeswoman for the Ohio attorney general's office.
Turner, who has a license to carry a concealed gun, said he was carrying his gun openly "because it's my right. I choose to exercise my right to protect myself." He doesn't know whether the two agents pulled their guns; he was instructed not to face them. The agents told investigators they didn't.
But it wouldn't be unreasonable for officers to draw their guns until they know what the situation is, said Sgt. Rich Weiner of the Columbus Police Division.
"The first thing we need to address: This man has a gun," Weiner said. "We're going to pull our guns.
"As a police officer, we also have the right to protect ourselves and protect the public, so we do have the right to disarm him momentarily. Now everybody is a little bit more at ease. We don't have a potential weapon being used against an officer or anybody else."
If your open display of a firearm is causing panic, you could be charged with inducing panic, Weiner said. If you carry it onto private property, you could be charged with trespassing, he said.
Komlanc of Public Safety wouldn't say why the agents and a police dive team were at Turner's apartment complex last July because the case is continuing.
He is an undercover agent with the Ohio Investigative Unit this officer doesn't need to know any of the Federal Regs just the ones from the Ohio and its not like it's a trick question it's pretty straight forward .
“As a police officer, we also have the right to protect ourselves from the public.”
How is a man carrying openly, not hiding his weapon, any threat to you or anyone else?
You did everyone a public service.
“So basically you posted this to bash law enforcement officers. Golly you are cool.”
So now stating a FACT about the lack of knowledge of the law by police officers is “bashing?”
>I am less certain of the wisdom, if not legality, of a minor carrying a weapon under the same circumstances in which an adult can. A 14 year old walking around town with a rifle is a little scary. Maybe I am missing something. In the woods, hunting, yeah. On a subway, I might avoid the yout.<
Not me. I want to be standing right beside the young fella. If he makes the wrong move, I’ll either disarm or kill him before he can kill anyone else but if he’s got the proper safety attitude regarding firearms, I might just buy his next box of ammo.
“If you carry it in a see-through handbag or a clear plastic raincoat, is it concealed or open?”
IIRC in Washington state it’s if the weapong can be seen and/or quickly put to use. It’s been some years since I read about it though.
I am willing to bet that most LEO’s get more training in cultural sensitivity than they do on open carry laws.
I would probably carry the text of the law with me or paint the numbers on the side of the tractor for the Officer to look up in his handbook.
Consider the recent instances of motorists being TASERed during a routine traffic stop, SWAT teams kicking in the wrong door in the middle of the night, etc?
(Full disclosure here: I am a “Law & Order” type of guy, USMC veteran with a totally clean police record. However, someone comes kicking down my door in the middle of the night, shouting rapid-fire, unintelligible commands then I may just react before fully identifying the speaker.)
As to the subject of this post, if it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to openly carry a firearm, then why the “Up against the wall, redneck” treatment?
Yup. I'd bet the farm on that.
I seem to remember seeing something on the news within the past day or two about an 11 year old kid getting tasered by cops. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Probably Barney Fife’s nephew. The dumb one.
I used to carry a badge for a living, a loooooong time ago. I was a State of Florida Probation and Parole Officer working some of Miami's meanest streets. At the time, we were considered certified state LEOs but forbidden by department policy from being armed. However, since I was a recent US Army Infantry captain and I subsequently was given a caseload of creeps and perps most likely to attack a LEO I was given authorization to carry with a warning that if I had to shoot, make sure of my justification. LOL I carried a 1911 thereafter.
One of the things I have continually noticed since those days is the sick subculture of LEOs that has sprung up across the nation. It used to be manifested by so called choir practice as cops hung out after work in so called cops bars.... to while away the sparking nerves from a particularly violent or hair raising shift.
Now cops totally insulate themselves from civilians and that word is usually uttered dripping with disdain. This comes from the surge of legal actions that cops see as money grubbing vindictiveness on the part of society. But it is also a result of being brainwashed by the public school curriculum's across the country and this is what is so frightening to me.
It is a byproduct of liberal antigun rhetoric that the school systems have flushed into our youth for the last thirty years! That idea that guns are inherently and intrinsically evil and therefore only the cops or the military should possess them! That sense of entitlement is what created an atmosphere that brought about the Katrina gun grab. Lemme relate to you a little story from right after I left the department but my name was still in the system. I had just gotten one of the initial Florida ccw permits back in 1987.
I got stopped at a roadblock where I think they were checking for insurance and trying to sniff out DUI's. My turn came and I informed the officer standing next to my car that was I was in possession of a concealed firearms permit and lawfully armed. This was a young stud. Black gloves in the south Florida heat. Suddenly I'm staring down the muzzle of a drawn GLOCK and that 9mm hole looked about the size of a 12 bore as it nearly nudged my temple. What really worried me was the fact that his hand was so visibly shaking his knuckles were white and his finger was on the trigger of that Glock M17. I assumed my best instructors voice tone (I was then and still am an NRA certified firearms Instructor) and tried to calmly talk him down, but he was screaming at me too loudly to hear my voice or the voice of his much older partner who was screaming at him to quit being an idiot and re-holster! This guy made me get out of my car, put my hands on my head and walk backward until I could feel the muzzle pressed firmly against my spine. Then he drew my weapon from it's holster concealed behind my right hip and proceeded to hand me off to his partner while he repeatedly ran the serial number on my gun, over and over. His partner was pleading with me not to sue and cursing his young charge for being a macho idiot.
When the guy came back he was looking a bit embarrassed since my name and personal data had rung a bell with the Dept of Corrections as being a recent employee. Then he launches into this harangue about why did I feel the need to carry a gun since I no longer wore a badge? I looked him up and down as he handed me back my piece (cleared and locked) and my mags with directions to load up when I was blocks away. I finally said that there were those folks for whom an explanation is not needed and those for whom an explanation is simply not possible. He looked confused but his partner got it. As I pulled away he was telling the kid that HE was the sole reason for taking early retirement. Of course I didn't sue them, it never even entered my mind and being a first year law student at the time, I also knew I had no standing. No case. Still I thought about writing the Chief of Police but figured he'd probably get a pat on the back. Such is the depth of the institutional illness. It is also progressing as the experiences post Hurricane Katrina seem to suggest.
I think it is cool that we have the right to bear arms, I think it is a drag all the cop will be on the clock when being reminded that we have the right to bear arms.
****If your open display of a firearm is causing panic, you could be charged with inducing panic, Weiner said. If you carry it onto private property, you could be charged with trespassing, he said. ****
Years ago I carried an apple into my mother-in-law’s house.
She went into a panic! “Arent you afraid of ALAR”! she screamed.
“No”! I said as I took a bite.
Could I be charged with inducing panic?
what if I carried a “lawn Dart”, croquet mallet, baseball bat, piece of water pipe,
Or a coppy of “GREMLINS”. That also set my mother in law off once.
And my worthless brother-in-law (If you know him he probably owes you money) is just as bad.
Whatever you do, do not tell RobertPaulsen small children can carry guns in public.
The poor man will have a stroke.
Read the 67 posts and then get back to me and others who have posted intelligently.
Post # 65 is something you should read.
It is ill-mannered and cowardly to attack other posters without the courtesy of a ping.
You didn’t answer my question.
Being neither a bad-ass nor a dumb-ass, I didn't think the question applied to me.
For the record, as I stated to another poster, I'm talking about ONE cop. There are good cops, bad cops and ignorant cops. This one was ignorant.
As for what I would do in your scenario, in Ohio the law states that open carry is legal. I might ask the gentleman a few questions, but I wouldn't violate his rights. If he made a threatening gesture, things would change. But not until then.
Thanks for the post.
The problem I see is the homogenization of Police Training.
When Bill Clinton said he would put 100,000 new police officers on the street he was not kidding. But people also did not understand what he meant.
Federal funding for various weapons and tactics courses has resulted in a situation where it is perfectly plausible for California State Troopers to mug a little old lady in her home in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina for possession of a curio pistol in full view of television crews at the behest of the New Orleans Mayor.
You would have had a hard time finding someone at any level of government to pull that kind of crap as recently as the 60's.
"Houston, we have a problem."
Colorado has no ban against open carry. I do belive that in 2003 we even passed a law that says any place that bans open carry must place sings into all entrances stating so. Denver has yet to do so.
Source? Citation? Link?
Your comment was clearly a smear of law enforcement officers in general and you know it. You are the most dishonest and cowardly schlep I’ve “talked” to here in quite some time.
I don’t care if others “agree” with your dishonesty and cowardice, it doesn’t make you right. It just makes them not very attentive readers. Your first post dictated the whole tone with your generalized insult, and you own that.
The result of a PC/Liberal society ......
I'm glad you take the rights of the citizens of Ohio so lightly while at the same time you sanctify public officials who are ignorant of the laws they are supposed to uphold. Are you Ruth Bader Ginsburg?
I’d be more worried that the kid doesn’t have what it takes to prevent a thug from taking it from him and killing him with it.
NOw imagine how things could’ve turned out for you if his supervisor WASN’T a good friend of your’s.
Two hundred years ago, I would have challenged you to a duel. But since we live in such unenlightened, PC times, I’ll just have to write you off as a complete idiot.
I don’t blame you for slinking away since you can’t keep kabuki dancing around your OP forever!
“Though I like the extra advantage that comes from having a concealed weapon as well. Why advertise?”
“Read the OPs comments in the first post.”
I read them. They do not appear to be bashing to me.
It appears that you are taking on the role of the critic.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
He is right. You are wrong.
It is the police officer’s job to know the law. It is his duty NOT to violate others rights.
Do a search of this site on New Hampshire and Open Carry. You will find that there are LOTS of cops who don’t have the slightest idea that open carry is legal. In this case, more than one officer detained a citizen without cause. When they were criticized for having done so, you copped (pun intended) an attitude.
I suggest that your “us against them” attitude does not speak favorably of police officers in general. My own experience has been that there are many great cops and far too many megalomaniacs who should not have badges.
In Mendocino County, also in California, we have a population of around 90,000 and we also have around 1200 CCW holders.
We elected a solid pro 2nd Amendment sheriff in 1999-2000, with a DA who felt the same at the same time. Sheriff Craver retired for health reasons, but his replacement also will issue to anyone who meets the legal and proficiency requirements. Next election? Who knows.
Things are different when you get away from the liberal cesspool cities but, it's still California, isn't it.
Well, I think that is one of the concerns. It is one of several legitimate concerns. I’m not saying the hypothetical teen is necessarily going to turn the local food court into a kill zone. I would be more inclined to draw a drivers license analogy. Some contraptions of great social utility are a bit much for a youngster to handle in some circumstances.
This just seems logical to me. And I believe in the First, Second, Third...Amendments as fervently as any person I know.
The problem is that you are changing the situation.
It was daytime. The pistol was holstered, not in his hands. He was not making any threatening moves.
Certainly not a threat and not warranting felony stop type actions.
--->A stranger walks toward you...
Please check your English grammar.
Additionally, the list of places somebody can openly carry is diminished every day.
When I open-carry in the places where it is legal, the soccer moms put their hands over their mouths and eyes and hustle their children away.
Nothing elicits more hysteria than a handgun holstered in open sight except a lit cigarette (sometimes I do both at the same time).
I don’t know about that. “Toward,” to me, invokes diffidence, a happenstance, a mere direction, not necessarily threatening. “At” is more confrontational.
I don’t see a grammatical issue here; I see a “how is the dude acting” issue.
What does that have to do with your cowardly ill-mannered attack on robertpaulsen behind his back?
LOL! I wore my "FRY MUMIA" t-shirt on the Ohio State campus a few years ago. You should have seen the reaction.
You must not know paulsen.
He’ll probably be here soon and a preemptive strike is absolutely necessary.
When I open-carry in the places where it is legal, the soccer moms put their hands over their mouths and eyes and hustle their children away.
Nothing elicits more hysteria than a handgun holstered in open sight except a lit cigarette (sometimes I do both at the same time).”
But, then, I do not smoke.
I think smokers are treated as the new outcasts.
I am optimistic that open carry is making a comeback. When it does, it will be because of people like me and you, and the fellow in this story.
Open carry is not illegal here, although if on somebody’s private property or quasi-private such as a mall you may be asked to leave and come back without. Still, we kind of restrict our open carry to unpopulated areas to avoid freaking those who freak at the sight of a firearm, and there could be some somewhere even if not commonly encountered.