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Need help outing a "fake" war hero. (says he flew at Toko-Ri @ age 15/won Navy Cross).
03 APR 08 | dcbryan1

Posted on 04/03/2008 9:35:22 AM PDT by DCBryan1

I have an co-worker who is older, and completely full of crap. His birthday is May 02, 1937, making him 14-17 at the time of the Korean War.

He has told stories that are unbelievable to clients who, if they find out, could hurt our business. My boss approached me since I am military and asked me to find out how I can get documentation that we can print up in the coffee room to "out him" as a "stolen valor" type of guy.

The latest news is that he won the Navy Cross in 1952 (when he was 15-16) when flying missions over Korea.

My questions are:

Isn't there a "stolen valor" law? And does it only pertain to wearing the uniform, or does it encompass verbal attestations?

Is there an unclassified way to look up someones war records or a datatbase with Navy Cross recipients as there is with the CMOH?

How would you handle the situation? (My first reaction, as a veteran, is an ass stomping of an old man, but I think humility and shunning would be much more appropriate IMHO).

My boss, myself, and co-workers are simply sick of his BS and would like to enlist your sources on the subject.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; US: Arkansas; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: fakehero; fraud; stolenvalor
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To: DCBryan1

http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/08/17/320639.aspx

this article says the youngest recipient of the MOH was 17 at the time


51 posted on 04/03/2008 10:25:04 AM PDT by edzo4
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To: DCBryan1

Years ago in another life, we had a guy like (my boss) that who, according to his tall tales, made rambo look like a sissy. We outed him by asking detailed questions that eventually exposed him for a fraud. His mouth was writing checks his knowledge and experience couldn’t cash, it became apparent to all involved (we brought in some third parties to listen to his crap and feed his ego in fake hero worship), he eventually neutered himself and got fired.


52 posted on 04/03/2008 10:26:03 AM PDT by pt17
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To: DCBryan1
What kind of business is it that might be compromised by the ramblings of a 71 year old man? Does he have any family with whom you can speak? Has he any medical conditions? Has he been showing signs of Alzheimers?

I wouldn't normally play devil's advocate for a valor thief, but the guy is 71 years old. I deal with a lot of elderly folks every day, and I have learned to take nearly everything I hear with a grain of salt. Even if I know that someone of advanced age is lying through their teeth about something, I would never humiliate them. That's unnecessarily harsh. Your primary concern appears to be business related, so find out what you can and deal with the man in a professional manner. Then pray to God that all of your marbles are spherical and intact when you're 71 years old.

Flame away!

53 posted on 04/03/2008 10:26:40 AM PDT by grellis (If the democrats want a re-vote, let THEM pay for it!!!)
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To: mnehrling

“and if he is telling the truth, buy him a case of beer.”

Yeap...and an apology for doubting his word.


54 posted on 04/03/2008 10:27:35 AM PDT by colinhester
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To: DCBryan1

.


55 posted on 04/03/2008 10:36:44 AM PDT by dubie
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To: MeanWestTexan
"Being a blow-hard is not actionable. (I think.)"

You think wrong.

(b) False Claims About Receipt of Military Decorations or Medals- Whoever falsely represents himself or herself, verbally or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the Armed Forces of the United States, any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration, or medal, or any colorable imitation of such item shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than six months, or both.'; and

snippet......

(d) Enhanced Penalty for Offenses Involving Certain Other Medals- If a decoration or medal involved in an offense described in subsection (a) or (b) is a distinguished-service cross awarded under section 3742 of title 10, a Navy cross awarded under section 6242 of title 10, an Air Force cross awarded under section 8742 of section 10, a silver star awarded under section 3746, 6244, or 8746 of title 10, a Purple Heart awarded under section 1129 of title 10, or any replacement or duplicate medal for such medal as authorized by law, in lieu of the punishment provided in the applicable subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.'.

56 posted on 04/03/2008 10:39:03 AM PDT by rednesss (Fred Thompson - 2008)
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To: Just another Joe

Well, you don’t know me personally, but I have several copies of my last DD-214. There are a LOT of servicemen who remember the “keep every scrap of official paper” rule regarding the military.


57 posted on 04/03/2008 10:43:03 AM PDT by MortMan (Those who stand for nothing fall for anything. - Alexander Hamilton)
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Bookmark


58 posted on 04/03/2008 10:43:17 AM PDT by DocRock (All they that TAKE the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 Gun grabbers beware.)
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To: Just another Joe

For yourself or someone else?

I have mine, for example.


59 posted on 04/03/2008 10:44:43 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: ErnBatavia

Yeah, I know that.


60 posted on 04/03/2008 10:45:39 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: MeanWestTexan
For yourself or someone else?

I have mine, for example.

For myself.
But I don't know you personally.
I know that there are others out there that could produce it, but none that I know personally.

61 posted on 04/03/2008 10:47:25 AM PDT by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: DCBryan1

Bump for later find!


62 posted on 04/03/2008 10:47:27 AM PDT by US_MilitaryRules (All my bullets are dipped in PIG fat. How about yours?)
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To: DCBryan1

Prosecution in cases of stolen valor is no longer optional.

It is not a situation of bragging. It is confessing to a criminal act.

Fortunately, the onus of prosecution is not on you, as long as you bring to light the suspicious behavior. Others will enthusiastically determine if a crime has in fact occurred.

It is a real and tangible way to thank and honor real veterans, whether or not they have been especially cited for their service and heroism.


63 posted on 04/03/2008 10:49:10 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: Mila
Behind The Bridges at Toko-ri - true facts behind fictional book by James A. Michener

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IAX/is_3_84/ai_108548248

When looking for the original question I found the same source you did. If anyone is interested in fighter (aircraft) weapons and tactics this is a great read.

64 posted on 04/03/2008 10:49:24 AM PDT by Portcall24
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To: DCBryan1

You might try the following:

http://www.homeofheroes.com/valor/1_Citations/05_korea-nc/nc_08korea_navy.html


65 posted on 04/03/2008 10:50:03 AM PDT by MortMan (Those who stand for nothing fall for anything. - Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

Apparently, not... but then there were no survivors of the Toko-Ri mission, were there?


66 posted on 04/03/2008 10:51:08 AM PDT by dangus
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To: DCBryan1

Has anybody actually just called BS to his face? The details you related above are so clearly preposterous that I can’t see any reason on earth to waste time proving them false rather than simply asking him to prove the stories true.


67 posted on 04/03/2008 11:03:42 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: DCBryan1

If you have his name, you can easily contact several wannabe hunters.


68 posted on 04/03/2008 11:05:25 AM PDT by Lumper20
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To: DCBryan1

Here’s a list specific to the Korean War:

http://www.homeofheroes.com/valor/0_NC/ncross_korea_list.html

If he’s an imposter, I’m sure his next lie will be that he changed his name. LOL.


69 posted on 04/03/2008 11:05:28 AM PDT by Azzurri
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To: Just another Joe
I am probably the only person I know personally, including some that I know served in the military, that could produce a DD-214 without having to order a copy from the Department of Defense.

Well, we don't "know" each other, but now there's two of us :)

70 posted on 04/03/2008 11:08:55 AM PDT by bcsco (To heck with a third party. We need a second one....)
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To: DCBryan1

My two cents for what it is worth, but it is not worth much.

Your boss is responsible for doing his homework on this guy, not you.

If the boss really wants to find out the truth, he would already have looked at the guy’s application, etc., and would NOT have solicted your help.

I would simply tell your boss that you don’t believe the guy, you think he is a liar, but you can’t prove it.

The company should do the research and fire the bum, and NOT get other employees involved.

(I applaud your interest and I can understand it — but be careful.)


71 posted on 04/03/2008 11:11:49 AM PDT by i_dont_chat (Your choice if you take offense.)
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To: DCBryan1

http://www.legionofvalor.com/index.php. Use this website to research the dirtbag’s lies.


72 posted on 04/03/2008 11:13:53 AM PDT by RetiredE8 (Soldier On!!)
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To: bcsco

For some reason I expect FReepers will be the exceptions that prove the point. ;^)


73 posted on 04/03/2008 11:15:45 AM PDT by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: DCBryan1

Print this out, highlight the parts about falsly claiming the Navy Cross, and leave it one his desk some night.

If he does not jet the message then that people know he’s lying, he is a real sicko and should be terminated.


HR 3352 IH
109th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 3352

To amend title 18, United States Code, with respect to protections for the Medal of Honor, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

July 19, 2005
Mr. SALAZAR introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


A BILL

To amend title 18, United States Code, with respect to protections for the Medal of Honor, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Stolen Valor Act of 2005’.

SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
Congress finds that—

(1) fraudulent claims surrounding receipt of the Medal of Honor, the Distinguished-Service Cross, the Air Force Cross, the Navy Cross, the Purple Heart, or any other medal or decoration awarded by Congress or the armed forces damage the reputation and meaning of these medals;

(2) Federal law enforcement officers are currently limited in their ability to prosecute fraudulent claims of receipt of military medals; and

(3) changes to the current statute are necessary to allow law enforcement personnel to protect the reputation and meaning of these medals.

SEC. 3. MILITARY MEDAL PROTECTIONS.
Section 704 of title 18, United States Code, is amended—

(1) in subsection (a)—

(A) by inserting `purchases, attempts to purchase, solicits for purchase, mails, ships, imports, exports, produces blank certificates of receipt,’ after `wears’; and

(B) by inserting `attempts to sell, advertises for sale, trades, barters or exchanges for anything of value’ after `sells’;

(2) in subsection (b)(1), by inserting `or (b)’ after `subsection (a)’

(3) by redesignating subsection (b) as subsection (c);

(4) by inserting after subsection (a) the following:

`(b) False Claims About Receipt of Military Medals- Whoever falsely represents himself or herself, verbally or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.’; and

(5) by adding at the end the following:

`(d) Other Medals- If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) or (b) is a Distinguished Service Cross awarded under Section 3742 of title 10, an Air Force Cross awarded under section 8742 of section 10, a Navy cross awarded under section 6242 of title 10, a silver star awarded under section 3746, 6244, or 8746 of title 10, or a Purple Heart awarded under section 1129 of title 10, or any replacement or duplicate medal as authorized by statute, in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.’.


74 posted on 04/03/2008 11:15:48 AM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: DCBryan1
Strongly Related
75 posted on 04/03/2008 11:15:59 AM PDT by MosesKnows (Love many, Trust few, and always paddle your own canoe)
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To: Moose4
Pilots were commissioned officers,

Not all of them. The Marine Corps alone had 131 enlisted pilots in 1952.

76 posted on 04/03/2008 11:24:44 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Just another Joe
For some reason I expect FReepers will be the exceptions that prove the point. ;^)

Yep. That wouldn't surprise me.

77 posted on 04/03/2008 11:25:21 AM PDT by bcsco (To heck with a third party. We need a second one....)
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To: DCBryan1
This must be your "hero's" plane:


78 posted on 04/03/2008 11:25:27 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: DCBryan1
I pray this man is telling the truth and you buy him a beer but suspect this isn't the case. I believe the Toko-ri story was at least partially fiction.

Personally, as someone with a grandfather (SSG US Army, Purple Heart in WW2) and father (1LT US Army - 1950's) who served proudly, someone lying about their service is a person deserving a beating. As a former Combat Engineer Platoon Sergeant who lost friends while serving our great country, someone who steals their honor in any way deserves to be publically flogged.

Those who commit these "stolen honor" type crimes are vermin and should be treated as such. These people piss me off!

79 posted on 04/03/2008 11:30:46 AM PDT by DesertSapper (God, Family, Country . . . . . . . . . . and dead terrorists!!!)
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To: DCBryan1

DD 214. If he doesn’t have this, or doesn’t know what it is, he’s full of shite. Nothing burns my ass more that this crap. I’m an Army major, UH-60 pilot. I have one 15-month Iraqi Freedom tour under my belt. I have run into several “soldiers” falsley claiming to have been to Iraq.

About 10 years ago and old girlfriend of mine had a sister who met a guy she quickly fell for. He claimed to be a Navy SEAL. I met him at a family party and instantly smelled a fraud. I called him out in front of dozens of people for being a scumbag liar. I only had to ask him a few simple questions to realize he was full of crap. The sister never forgave me. Tough. The guy was an ass.


80 posted on 04/03/2008 11:40:26 AM PDT by strider44
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To: bcsco
Well, we don't "know" each other, but now there's two of us.

Me three. I have copies tucked away on the advice of my late Dad, who lost his service records in a notorious DoD fire. That one was ugly.

81 posted on 04/03/2008 11:44:22 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: wideawake; frankenMonkey
He sounds like a piker - perhaps a real Navy vet could engage him in conversation - a fake will be found out within minutes. ...... frankenMonkey

The fact that this guy is claiming to have won a Navy Cross as a pilot at the age of 15 is egregious and may violate federal law. ... wideawake

The Stolen Valor Act of 2005 makes the unauthorized wear, manufacture, sale or claim (either written or verbal) of any military decorations and medals a federal class D felony offense.

*

If, however, you can legally prove that you are a Navy veteran, you have a documented blood alcohol level of 0.14 ** and ..... this is crucial ..... you begin your story with the phrase, "Now this is a no sh!tter", then you are protected from legal consequences by the "Sea Story Clause" of said act.

* Now this is a no sh!tter.

** Sea stories not claiming personal valor are legal regardless of blood alcohol levels.

82 posted on 04/03/2008 11:50:37 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: Billthedrill
Good morning.
It's sort of off topic, but recording any official documents with your county recorder is a great idea.

I've needed certified copies of my dd-214 several times and a trip to the recorder is much quicker than going through the Federal bureaucracy. I've been waiting for items from the National Archives for four months, with the county I'm out the door in ten minutes. In some counties certified copies are free to veterans.

Michael Frazier

83 posted on 04/03/2008 11:56:44 AM PDT by brazzaville (No surrender, no retreat. Well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: Polybius
If, however, you can legally prove that you are a Navy veteran, you have a documented blood alcohol level of 0.14 ** and ..... this is crucial ..... you begin your story with the phrase, "Now this is a no sh!tter", then you are protected from legal consequences by the "Sea Story Clause" of said act.

Absolutely! That clause has saved me from jail...say, did you hear about how I shot down Richtofen over Pork Chop Hill?

84 posted on 04/03/2008 11:59:18 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: strider44
Thank you for your service.

Your ex-girlfriend's sister owes you BIG time! Good job.
85 posted on 04/03/2008 12:05:27 PM PDT by UlmoLordOfWaters
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To: DCBryan1

Maybe the guy just watched too many old John Wayne movies. You know, sitting in a darkened living room with the 23 inch black and white, lips silently mouthing every word of the on screen dialog...It seems soooooo real!


86 posted on 04/03/2008 12:09:16 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

I was TDY down at Rota NAS Spain in 1972 and was told that the last enlisted Navy pilot was stationed there. I saw him at the BX one time and he was an E-9.


87 posted on 04/03/2008 12:21:37 PM PDT by RVN Airplane Driver ("To be born into freedom is an accident; to die in freedom is an obligation..)
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To: Just another Joe

Every one I served with and keep in touch with,all have a copy and or the original with in reach.We all needed it for employement,myself just back in 2006 for ATT.


88 posted on 04/03/2008 12:21:45 PM PDT by CGASMIA68
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To: Mila
Thanks for digging up this reprint. I vaguely remember reading the story behind Toko-ri some years back.
The Michener story is especially meaningful for me because we lived in Japan exactly during the time that the story was filmed for the movie. My dad worked for the Army/State Department in the 50s and the Korean War/rebuilding Japanese industry was central to his assignment.
89 posted on 04/03/2008 12:22:18 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Just another Joe

actually one guy has his wallet size sealed in plastic


90 posted on 04/03/2008 12:22:45 PM PDT by CGASMIA68
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To: Billthedrill
Absolutely! That clause has saved me from jail...say, did you hear about how I shot down Richtofen over Pork Chop Hill?


Mr. Bill, Naval Criminal Investigative Service has received a report that you have been telling sea stories without the required "This is a no shitter!" phraseology. Be advised that this is unauthorized and any future violations will be prosecuted.

91 posted on 04/03/2008 12:22:52 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: Moose4; DCBryan1
If he gets curious, tell him you told your kids about him and they thought it was cool, and you’re getting the info for them

Tell him your kids have to do a report on a military hero and you immediately thought of him. Then you have an excuse to write down everything he tells you so you have it "right" for the kids' report!

92 posted on 04/03/2008 12:44:16 PM PDT by trussell (I carry because...When seconds count between life and death, the police are only minutes away)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

And there were hundreds of civilian pilots in WW II, Korea, SE Asia...


93 posted on 04/03/2008 1:31:29 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Stonewall Jackson

He’s 75, right?


94 posted on 04/03/2008 2:11:14 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: MeanWestTexan

There are not enough prisons.


95 posted on 04/03/2008 2:12:21 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: DCBryan1

As a member of the CIA who triangulated the location of Saddam Hussein after he went into hiding............and came up with the idea for Baath party trading cards.......... I would......


96 posted on 04/03/2008 2:17:54 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: rednesss
The revision has a serious grammatical error. It says "verbally or in writing". Stating that something is said "verbally" is sufficient since that word includes "oral" and "written" communications.

Did this get signed or are you just referencing the final write-up in the Senate?

97 posted on 04/03/2008 2:19:37 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Just another Joe

Now you know me also. I always figured it was an important document to keep handy.......so I keep it handy, even though I was in the “Old Brown Shoe Army”.


98 posted on 04/03/2008 2:23:08 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
The legislation includes the phrase "false claims" which always refers to "fraud" which involves payment, promise of payment, intent to pay, etc.

The economic motive is still there. BSing would still appear to be excluded from the law ~ besides, that would be a violation of the First Amendment.

99 posted on 04/03/2008 2:25:00 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: bcsco; Just another Joe

That DD214 usually disappeared in the application to buy a house under an FHA insured mortgage.


100 posted on 04/03/2008 2:26:29 PM PDT by muawiyah
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