Posted on 04/09/2008 9:33:38 AM PDT by Domandred
Texas authorities named the wrong man in search and arrest warrants used to enter the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado and begin questioning FLDS children, two opponents of the sect said Tuesday.
The warrant issued Thursday evening named 50-year-old Dale Barlow, alleging he had married and impregnated a 16-year-old girl. Officials, who later sought a second search warrant, have removed 419 children.
But Joni Holm, who has helped children leave the FLDS, said the teenager who called officials on March 29 and 30 and claimed she was abused is married to a different, younger man. The girl's husband is in his late 30s, is related to Dale Barlow, shares his surname and has a similar sounding first name, Holm said.
"I know they're looking into the wrong one," Holm said.
Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, on Tuesday said police were continuing to serve warrants and attempt to locate "the person that we are looking for."
When asked if that person was still Dale Barlow, she said, "As far as I know."
But Flora Jessop, who left the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints at age 16 and now helps others do the same, also said the wrong man was named in the initial warrants.
Texas authorities have made no effort to apprehend Dale Barlow at his address in Colorado City, Ariz. He reported to his Arizona probation officer on Friday - less than 24 hours after the raid began to tell the officer he was under investigation.
His probation officer has said Dale Barlow claimed to not know the teenager making the abuse accusations. Later Friday, Arizona authorities questioned him and searched his home.
The Salt Lake Tribune, which generally does not name alleged victims of sexual abuse, and other media outlets have not published the girl's name.
But Holm said the girl's identity, and the correct identity of her husband, is "common knowledge" in Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, where the sect has traditionally been based.
The Tribune is not naming the man identified by Holm as the girl's husband because he has not been named as a suspect or in court filings.
Holm, who is married to a former FLDS member, said she has spoken with people who know the teenager. She thinks Texas officials confused the two Barlows.
She believes it is possible the teenager did not know her husband's correct age and told authorities he is about 50. Also, she noted, Dale Barlow has a 2007 conviction in Arizona for criminal charges related to marrying and impregnating a different 16-year-old girl, which may have contributed to confusion.
The first warrant identified Dale Barlow by name and his birth date. The copy on file in court does not list the name of the investigator who petitioned for it.
A second and more expanded warrant, signed Sunday night, was based on observations and evidence found by law enforcement and child services workers inside the compound, according to court documents.
My concern here is that I don't know if we "can deal with that later", and I don't think anyone on this forum knows that either with any certainty. Just to make myself crystal clear, if even one underaged girl has been forced to be a "spirit wife" (or whatever euphamism the perpetrators apply to child rape and enslavement), then imo there's no way that every adult in that compound, women included, didn't know this was happening.
If it's true, and it appears that it is based on reports of multiple underaged pregnant girls taken into protective custody, then I would have no problem with the men who committed the rapes being taken behind the barn and shot. Further, imo, every adult in the compound, including women, should be arrested, prosecuted and put in prison for being accessories to the crime. I'd also have no problem with the property being confiscated and the so-called temple being burned to the ground.
No one can undo what's happened to these girls. The best we can do is provide them a safe environment, whatever help we can give them to heal from the abuse they have suffered, and the certainty that justice will be done. If the state has failed to dot their i's or cross their t's, and if the result is that any of these heinous sex offenders go free on a technicality, imo we will have failed to deliver the justice these girls deserve. Not only that, but if offenders go unpunished, there will be more "spirit wives" in the future, because sex offenders don't simply stop offending.
The worst possible consequence in my view would be for technicalities to allow even one of the perpetrators to go unpunished, or that even one child could be returned to this sick environmnet.
So, my concern is as to whether or not, in a legal sense, we can "deal with that later" should it be revealed that there've been technical defects in the manner in which the state has performed. I pray there haven't been. While we don't have enough information at this point to draw a conclusion, there does seem to be sufficient reason to be conerned. At least for me, ymmv.
The problem here IMO is that you have victims and perpertrators. You could have an 18 y/o that was raped at 12. Do we put her in jail for knowing that the same was happening to other girls afterward? It's a mess and some will try to use this as a loophole but IMO direct supervision with restrictions or your probation will be revoked would work better. That way you are helping them to stop this circle. For the worldly one's that were the leaders of abuse, lock um up. Throw away the key.
Cordially,
ok, playing devil’s advocate, if a cop KNOWS the name on the warrent is wrong then the cop HAS to not execute that warrent OR have the warrent issued in a way that the name is irrelevant.
IOW issue the warrent so it is specific as to premis rather than to person. BEFORE the warrent is executed is the time to fix it. We are talking about minutes not days or even hours. Error on warrent, fix error, execute corrected warrent.
There is a duty judge available 24hours (used them myself in emergencies) whose job is to deal with this stuff.
the goal is to elminate ANY issue for appeal and any potential claim of mistake which will let these sickos walk.
If there was a rape happening at that very second and the cop saw it, there would be the exigent circumstances to justify a warrentless entry to prevent an immediate harm.
My 4th amendment sensibilities are to make sure this case is iron clad from day one with zero wiggle room.
Remember in your hypothetical, the cop KNOWS there is a defect in the warrent, if he takes a few minutes to change from person to location then he has cured the defect and protected the girls.
Measure twice, cut once.
bttt
Not like we don't already know something about this particular camp.
Although this is several days later, your post indicates that this guy (Dale Barlow) reports to his parole officer on Friday, not just on Tuesday.
That would mean he could easily drive the 811 miles to the Texas camp on Friday evening for a full day of fun and frolic on Saturday. Then rest up and drive back Sunday night and Monday in time for his next meeting on Tuesday.
The fact he's reporting to his parole officer does not conflict with the beating story at all.
So, thanks for the info!
All at once Billybob leaps out from behind a tree and starts screaming "defective warrant, defective warrant" and demands the sheriff rechain the man.
Sheriff does not do so while he puts Billybob in chains himself and tells him he's going to stand trial for keeping slaves.
Question for the student, does the fact the warrant failed to specify a slave on the premises invalidate the arrest? If Billybob wins, does the sheriff have to give him back his slave? Can Billybob win a suit for loss of property, to wit, the slave, due to a defect in the warrant?
It's pretty obvious in this case that the sheriff simply does not have to get a warrant that names the slave as a "person to be seized", and ol'Billybob is going to jail for a long time busting rocks up North in Loudon County.
it does not work that way.
first, the sheriff would not be destroying the evidence.
second, the cry for help would be independent of the still bust. Nice try, don’t quit your day job.
The hypothetical you pose is irrelevant and it just a convolution posed to justify the mob mentality.
The bottom line in this FLDS situation is that it has to be done RIGHT or it will do even more harm than it already has. These kids need help not vigilanties.
From what I see right now, the prosecution will focus on one or two sacrificial lambs and call it a victory. If they are responsible, the will do DNA tests on everyone and link up mothers to children. Absent any PROVABLE (as in beyond a reasonable doubt) they will have to return the children. Soverign immunity does have limitations. (remember FL still never found the foster children it lost!)
Putting the nonsensical hypothecical aside, the legal advisor to this prosecutor AND THE POLICE, should be developing secondary paths to the same evidence. HOPEFULLY the FBI has one of their accounting teams also working on this case.
quite frankly the “burn them at the stakes” pitchfork crowd are only helping the evil doers go free. (just wait untill the change of venue motion is made)
We are dealing with the fundamental right of human beings to be free ~ see Amendment 13 ~ whatever is antecedent to that right is irrelevent to its exercise.
The state is arguing 100% of the children must be put in foster care regardless of mothers or fathers.
The defendants are arguing 100% of the children should be returned to the residents of the ranch regardless of mothers or fathers.
I do not seriously believe 100% of anything will happen.
It would not suprise me if the judge simply asks if the parents object to some kind of supervision as a condition of return.
Each child’s custody is being determined individually. Each one has a lawyer.
I heard that Texas was moving to have the entire group ruled “one family.”
If they lose that, there are legal issues here that you can drive a military convoy thru.
yes I am very familia with Attorney ad Litems.
it is one of the reasons for the serious belief nobody is going to get 100% of what they are asking.
The attorney’s duties are to their child client. 1. determine the mother 2. determine the living situation of their young client 3. LISTEN to their client 4. Report that information to the court 5. MAKE A LEGAL RECOMENDATION. (judment of the lawyer)
Pure hyperbole, exaggeration & intensified false rhetoric. (For example, please provide proof that 600+ people were "arrested"). Oh, you can't? (I guess we should have just considered the source...a Mormon apologist who is still defending a practice that if he engaged in would be ex-communicated from his own church).
Example 2: You use the sheer number of children bused away as if this was overkill (your words: "just because an unidentified girl made charges over the phone."). More rhetoric designed to take the focus off of realities here. The fact is that ALL of the children of any household could be sequestered for questioning by CPS/authorities in claims of sexual abuse, whether 1, 2, 3, 10, 20, 30 or 400+ children live in a given facility.
The numbers are only so high because, as you already know, fLDS choose to live in a communistic ("communistic" as in "commune") lifestyle.
But thanks for showing your true colors, EW...I mean, we wouldn't want you to ever become a "bleeding heart" for a likely underaged rape victim...that might be a "new side" we would see of Mormonism beyond its pure legalism.
Ah, a very telling adjective here. Edward Watson describes the fLDS as "Christian." And since we know that so many Mormons also claim to be "Christian," I guess all those cartwheels that recently deceased LDS "prophet" Gordon Hinckley was doing to try to ensure that fLDS not be called "Mormon" didn't work.
To hear some Mormons tell it, fLDS are Mormon Christians just like they are. (That's a rather new "confession" for mainstream Mormons...especially in light of Eldorado).
This is just typical of you - whatsamatter? Can’t comprehend English or is your hatred towards everything Mormon blinding you to common sense and common decency?
Are you denying over 400 children were forcefully removed from their families? Are you denying their mothers were also removed from the compound, and it is only in the past few days that they’ve been allowed to return? Are you denying NONE of these 416 children have been returned to their parents, not even the boys or the pre-teen girls? Are you denying the government’s justification for its actions was due to the anonymous complaint by “Sarah”, whom they still cannot identify, despite it’s been TWO WEEKS since the raid, and the government has NEVER alleged any children below the age of 14 has been abused?
NEVER before in American history have so many children been forcefully separated from their parents. The trauma of being separated from a child’s loved ones can never justify the irresponsible behavior of the government.
What kind of “Christian” are you to approve such an abuse of power? How would you feel if the government forcefully took your children away from you just on the basis of an anonymous phone call? What do you think your children would feel when these strangers dragged them away from your arms and prevented them from seeing you or talking to you? Wouldn’t they be traumatized?
So, who should the government target next? Hey, how about those pesky Jehovah’s Witnesses? When we’re done with them, let’s go after the Scientologists, Amish, Mormons, and whomever else we don’t like. That’ll teach ‘em not to be different than normal Americans, who prefer serial monogamy, adultery, promiscuity, and homosexuality.
It is this abuse of power that makes me fear for this country. The government is lucky they targeted the FLDS pacifists - if they targeted another group, it would’ve been a bloodbath all over again.
Oh, and as for showing one’s “true colors”, well, nice to know it isn’t that hard to track someone’s IP Address and make anonymous phone calls to the government.
Ah, a very telling adjective here. Edward Watson describes the fLDS as "Christian." And since we know that so many Mormons also claim to be "Christian,"
The fLDS origins go directly back to J. Smith. At Smith, the linkage ends. Mormonism is not equivalent to Christianity. The abuse these young girls have endured is just one example of the 'fruit' of Joseph Smith's status of a prophet. Those who try to justify polygamy are just continuing to peddle Smith's fruit. Christianity rebukes the fLDS, and Christianity rebukes LDS.
Of course the FLDS is a Christian faith. Their denominational taxonomy, following the Religion-Branch-Family-Denomination matrix, is “Christian-Mormon-Fundamentalist Mormon-Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
They do not belong to the Catholic, Eastern Christian, Protestant, or Anglican/Independent Catholic (Via Media) branches; they belong to the Mormon branch of Christianity, but in a completely different Family (Fundamentalist Mormon). Others in the same Family are the Apostolic United Brethren, Latter Day Church of Christ (Kingston Clan), and The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days).
Get your facts straight. There are four families in the Mormon branch of Christianity [CJCLDS, Fundamentalist Mormon, Liberal Mormon, Prairie Saints] just as there are 20 denominational families in the Protestant branch of Christianity [African Initiated Churches (AIC); Anabaptist; Baptist; Brethren; Charismatic; Christian and Missionary Alliance, Friends (Quakers); Holiness Movement; Lutheran; Methodist; Messianic Judaism; Millerite; New Thought; Nondenominational, Nontrinitarian; Pentecostal; Reformed; Restorationist (Stone-Campbell); United; Other]; five families in the Anglican/Independent Catholic branch [Anglican Communion, Independent Catholic, Old Catholic, Continuing Anglican, Independent Anglican]; six families in the Eastern Christian branch [Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Dyophysite/ Nestorian, Old Believers, Independent Orthodox, Independent Oriental Orthodox]; and two families in the Catholic branch [Roman Catholic and Eastern Catholic].
The Mormon branch of Christianity believes everything the Bible teaches about Christ. It fully agrees with all Catholic, Eastern Christian, Anglicans/Independent Catholic, and 95% of Protestants that:
• Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God and Savior of Mankind
• The Holy Bible is the Word of God and is authoritative over us
• The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are “One God”
• God became man in the person of Jesus Christ
• Christ’s followers are saved by his Grace through his Atonement
• Christ was sinless throughout his life and substituted himself for us
• Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant between God and man
• Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, died on the cross, and rose from the dead
• Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, Messiah, Intercessor, Lamb of God, Creator, Son of Man, First and Last, Rock, Foundation, the I AM, and our Judge
• Christ experienced a single mortality and has an immortal body
• Jesus Christ is the only source of Salvation and the greatest name possible
• We take upon ourselves the name of Christ, pray to the Father in his name, worship and obey him
These statements are taken at face value with no elaborations. I can prove every single declaration.
The FLDS has more in common with the denominations in its family than with the CJCLDS, but shares similar christology. It’s unique differentials are polygamy, authority, and various other beliefs.
Just because they do not belong to my church and are in opposition to it doesn’t mean I will lie about them or distort their beliefs.
I do not do that with ANY group.
Christianity rebukes LDS.
you don’t speak for all of Christianity there is a big world out there and you folks are just a few drop in a sea of Christians!
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