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ATF Agents Burst Into Wrong House (again...)
NBC6 ^ | 04-10-08 | staff

Posted on 04/10/2008 8:06:37 AM PDT by woollyone

MIAMI -- Officers from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives barged into a South Florida home Wednesday only to discover they had the wrong address.

The ATF agents were supposed to conduct a raid at a home in the 2600 block of Northwest 49th Terrace in northwest Miami-Dade County, but they were off by one block. They entered a house on Northwest 49th Street instead.

A mother and her 2-year-old boy were among the innocent people inside the home when the agents came in


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: atf; banglist; batfe; beserkcop; bootthebatfe; donutwatch; jackbootedthugs; jbt; leo; noknock; police; policestate; swat
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To: ModelBreaker
So it's easy to criticize--I've done my share of criticizing ATF. But how do you avoid this? Do you send officers into unknown situations without scary looking flak jackets and helmets? Do you give bad guys 30 seconds warning to pick up their guns? Do you politely request permission to enter?

How about serve the warrant (if they have one) with a knock on the door? They used to do that back when we had a more civilized government.

101 posted on 04/10/2008 10:28:18 AM PDT by zeugma (FedGov has no intention of actually doing anything to secure this nation. It's all a power grab.)
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To: TXnMA
Not even a smattering of liberal, gun-hating, fear-mongering, over-the-top hyperbole in that one, eh...?

Not a bit. Do you know much about the gang culture and capabilities in CA, AZ, NM, TX? I do.

BTW, I carry concealed with a permit. So don't assume that I support gun control just because I note a fact--and a fact it is--about the unpleasant tendency of very powerful weaponry to find its way into the hands of very bad people. It does. I just don't happen to think that should be an excuse to disarm honest citizens, which is the goal of the lefties in any event.

102 posted on 04/10/2008 10:30:11 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: Joe Brower; neverdem; All

Well... if less of these guys happen to return home after a ‘mission’, who’s to say legislators won’t push for more gun bans, to ‘make their job safer’?


103 posted on 04/10/2008 10:30:36 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: DuncanWaring

Thanks for posting that!


104 posted on 04/10/2008 10:35:37 AM PDT by woollyone (entropy extirpates evolution and conservation confirms the Creator blessed forever.)
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To: xone

***When their paycheck comes from the Feds.***

It doesn’t already?


105 posted on 04/10/2008 10:38:31 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: ModelBreaker
“In today's world, every encounter with a citizen is scary. It's hard to stay alive and not be uber-cautious because the country is full of psychopaths with RPG’s.”

Um...will you kindly cite a brief list of examples (at least two!) of citizens armed with “Rocket Propelled Grenades”?

106 posted on 04/10/2008 10:40:59 AM PDT by woollyone (entropy extirpates evolution and conservation confirms the Creator blessed forever.)
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To: rickomatic
I'm sorry. But that type of sentiment scares the hell out of me. What in the world have we become?

We've become a nation full of bad guys armed to the teeth, who shoot at cops. These cops made a mistake, a big one and should pay consequences. But you don't pussyfoot on raids. The idea is to get in with lots of bodies and guns and to have the suspects controlled before any of them even touches a gun. It usually works. When it does, noone gets hurt and bad guys usually get caught. When it doesn't, cops get killed.

The problem with the sanctimonious moralizing going on in this thread is that the cops don't know, in advance, to know whether they are encountering a house full of sleeping people or a bunch of freaks on meth who playing with their guns. Everyone makes mistakes and this was a bad one. But I would never ask our police to enforce our laws in a manner that puts them at unnecessary risk. Pussyfooting on a raid does just that.

When the cops mess up like on this one, innocent folks can be hurt. Thank God they didn't this time. I regard that as the joint fault of the cops who made the mistake and the bad guys, who have made cops lives so dangerous. Police raids didn't used to be like this. There's a reason they have changed.

107 posted on 04/10/2008 10:41:00 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: Wonder Warthog

How would you feel if they ‘accidentally’ busted into your home, when their target was up the street?


108 posted on 04/10/2008 10:43:41 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: woollyone
Um...will you kindly cite a brief list of examples (at least two!) of citizens armed with “Rocket Propelled Grenades”?

I personally know of more than that where they were not only citizens, they were also bad guys, some were even here in the country illegally (big shock). Also, of course, the usual array of automatic weaponry, even automatic shotguns.

109 posted on 04/10/2008 10:44:28 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: zeugma
How about serve the warrant (if they have one) with a knock on the door? They used to do that back when we had a more civilized government.

And a more civilized bunch of residents. We have 20 million illegals here, a substantial portion of which are members of one organized crime cartel or another. We have home growns who are just as bad.

I really don't see the increasing caution by the police as being something they sought. I see it as a reaction to the changes that have occurred in our nation in my lifetime. They suck.

110 posted on 04/10/2008 10:47:44 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: RandallFlagg

Looks like I should purchase that book.


111 posted on 04/10/2008 10:47:46 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: woollyone

At least the house didn’t burn to the ground.


112 posted on 04/10/2008 10:51:08 AM PDT by hattend (Conservo Tribe Name: Soars with Eagles aka We're so screwed)
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To: SeaHawkFan
How about just arresting the suspects when they are out on the street where you can simply walk up behind them and grab them.

Excellent suggestion. That is where intelligence comes in. They have to go to the local mini-market for a pack of smokes and can of Colt 45 at some point, don't they?

The trouble is, they don't get to play "Commando" and shoot up the place, so it will never happen.

113 posted on 04/10/2008 10:51:42 AM PDT by Mr. Quarterpanel (I am not an actor, but I play one on TV)
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To: jonascord

Every single one of the Founding Fathers, from those first legislators, to those men who were eagerly waiting in bars and taverns for news, are rolling in their graves.

Like somebody on here once said, the Founding Fathers rolling in their graves is an incredible source of untapped energy.


114 posted on 04/10/2008 10:54:30 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: oldfart

Recent congressionally passed law, now repealed, may have explicitly given this authority to the President. HR5122 also known as the John Warner Defense Authorization Act was signed by the president on Oct 17, 2006 John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007. Section 1076 Text of Hr5122 is titled “Use of the Armed Forces in major public emergencies”. Removing the legalese from the text, and combining multiple sentences, it provides that: The President may employ the armed forces to restore public order in any State of the United States the President determines hinders the execution of laws or deprives people of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws. The actual text is on page 322-323 of the legislation. As of 2008, these changes were repealed, changing the text of the law back to the original 1807 wording.

Got this from Wikipedia.


115 posted on 04/10/2008 10:59:02 AM PDT by Sertorius (A hayseed with no Greek and dam^ proud of it)
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To: Pete98

“My question is if they’re going to act like this, at what point do they become a true military force and fall under posse comitatus restrictions?”

Now THAT’S an interesting question.


116 posted on 04/10/2008 11:03:19 AM PDT by dljordan
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To: NonValueAdded
... the folks at NW 49th Terrace are saying “thank you, Jesus” as they head for Georgia.

... where a single warrant for Peach Street covers the entire state.

117 posted on 04/10/2008 11:15:24 AM PDT by kitchen (Any day without a fair tax thread is a good day.)
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To: NonValueAdded
Sovereign immunity would probably save their bacon but if the abuse was blatant enough...

Saved Lon Horiuchi's bacon, and his abuse was pretty blatant.

118 posted on 04/10/2008 11:17:50 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: ModelBreaker

How do you prevent the stormtruppen kicking in the doors of innocent Americans who are blocks away from the target site ? How about having cops who can read a address on a warrant,a street map, street signs,the address on the house/mailbox as a minimum .


119 posted on 04/10/2008 11:24:19 AM PDT by Nebr FAL owner (.308 reach out & thump someone .50 cal.Browning Machine gun reach out & crush someone)
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To: Minutemen
ATF = "Always Think Forfeiture"

/jasper

120 posted on 04/10/2008 11:27:46 AM PDT by Jasper (Stand Fast, Craigellachie!!)
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To: Nebr FAL owner
How do you prevent the stormtruppen kicking in the doors of innocent Americans who are blocks away from the target site ? How about having cops who can read a address on a warrant,a street map, street signs,the address on the house/mailbox as a minimum .

Nobody here is arguing that this was a good thing. Or that the cops involved should not be disciplined for stupidity. It was a mistake. And they need to be responsible for their mistakes.

What I'm arguing against is the attitude by many on this thread that cops should put their guns away and politely ask if the meth heads would like to come to jail.

Twenty years ago, I hung with bad guys. I'm not proud of it. But the folks on this thread have lead a sheltered life in terms of their knowledge of what goes on in bad-guy land. The bad guys really are nuts and they really do have lots of guns and they actually regard killing a cop as a mark of honor.

I've been in the room when a no-knock search happens. It was sudden and very professional. Noone got hurt (including me) because the force was so sudden and so overwhelming that noone in the room had time to reach for their gun. (And there were guns all over the room for someone to grab and be stupid with.) You have no idea how many guns can be pointed at you from a single doorway all at once.

"Knock knock, it's the police" is not-unlikely to result in a shotgun blast thru the door where the knock came from. Had that happened when I was in the room, you suddenly have an armed standoff created by one coked-up or methed-up jerk who panics. So no-knocks handled properly probably save a lot of lives.

121 posted on 04/10/2008 12:02:08 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: RandallFlagg; Henry Bowman
I'll ping Henry but every-time I do I get a message about feeding the hogs. Whatever that means.
122 posted on 04/10/2008 12:13:38 PM PDT by beltfed308 (Heller: The defining moment of our Republic)
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To: ModelBreaker

Gotta pull the BS flag on your comments.

Your brother is a paranoid and needs therapy and a new job IF that is how he truly feels/thinks/reacts..

HE SERVES US, remember? The government of the people, for the people and by the people?

Yes, every citizen deserves due process of the law, our rights are more important than your bro’s feelings, that aspect came with the badge. If a BG executes a lethal threat, then by all means LEOs (and citizens) have a right, responibility and duty to smoke them, so don’t get me wrong.

True, there are bad guys out there, but 99.998% of us are not, therefore, tread lightly!

Show me stats of incidents of RPGs being toted/used by the bad guys in any quatity. I truly doubt your veracity. This is not an epidemic, nor even a factoid. Thankfully, we are stopping most illegal weapons from entering this country (certainly, small scale illegal import/export takes place-guns do get into the wrong hands- methnks the DEA/FBI and ICE lost most of them...).

I will assume, since I am a law adiding citizen, that anyone breaking down my door is a home invasion in progress and will react appropriately (dial 911, lock myself in the bathroom etc).

Molon Labe


123 posted on 04/10/2008 12:13:57 PM PDT by Manly Warrior (US Army, Retired)
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To: ModelBreaker

We all are panty-waists, innocent lambs etc.. We’ll defer to your past shady experiences and take that as gospel.

Well, just let’s insure they “NO KNOCK” at the right address, or better yet, surveille the crap out the situation and take them out on a lonely street in a car where kids etc are not likley to be in the beaten zone.

If the Army acted (in combat) like the AFT, we’d have been drummed out existence long ago.

My freedom is more important than “security*” (*provided by government).

MolonLabe


124 posted on 04/10/2008 12:20:13 PM PDT by Manly Warrior (US Army, Retired)
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To: wastedyears
It doesn’t already?

Some police forces are becoming so militarized

I should have said when their paychecks come from DOD.

125 posted on 04/10/2008 2:57:07 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone

Ah, gotcha


126 posted on 04/10/2008 3:15:07 PM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: ModelBreaker
I happen to be a Texan (living in Texas) with something over seven decades at it. I might be able to buy "AK knockoffs" or "fat-mag nines" . But, I guarantee that anyone (gangbanger or otherwise) using a single RPG would have ignited a week of MSM/liberal mouth-frothing and hand-wringing and attacks on the 2nd Amendment . AND, some FReeper here would have remembered it...

Admit it -- you used hyperbole.

As others have asked: Document two (or, even one) case of RPG use in the U.S.

(FYI, I have -- and use -- a TXCHL -- and my own range...)

127 posted on 04/10/2008 3:51:29 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: Jasper
ATF = "Always Think Forfeiture"

Didn't they order that custom-engraved on some knives recently?

128 posted on 04/10/2008 4:04:12 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: ModelBreaker
"We've become a nation full of bad guys armed to the teeth, who shoot at cops."

You have a tendency to exaggerate. Some of us who are armed to the teeth really are the good guys, but; have not yet begun to shoot back.

Semper Fi
An Old Man,p>

129 posted on 04/10/2008 4:23:25 PM PDT by An Old Man ("The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they suppress." Douglas)
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To: ModelBreaker
Nobody here is arguing that this was a good thing. Or that the cops involved should not be disciplined for stupidity. It was a mistake. And they need to be responsible for their mistakes.

If a government agent breaks into a dwelling at 123 E. Fifth Street, without a warrant authorizing him to do break into 123 E. Fifth Street, and in the absence of obvious exigent circumstances that would justify such a break-in, why should he not be regarded and prosecuted as a robber? Even if he has in his possession a warrant for 125 E. Fifth Street or 123 E. Sixth Street, such a warrant in no way authorizes him to enter 123 E. Fifth Street.

I've never heard of a cop being prosecuted as a robber under such circumstances, but I see no reason one shouldn't be.

130 posted on 04/10/2008 4:41:48 PM PDT by supercat
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To: ModelBreaker
We've become a nation full of bad guys armed to the teeth, who shoot at cops.

Last I recall, taxi drivers were at greater risk of being shot than cops. Yes, some cops do get shot, especially in situations where crooks might expect to escape (e.g. a lone cop who happens upon some criminals). How often are cops shot while trying to serve a warrant peacefully?

131 posted on 04/10/2008 4:50:37 PM PDT by supercat
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To: Pete98
Soon they’ll be tossing flash-bangs in the windows before they charge in.

They've been known to that. Although that tends to be an FBI HRT tactic. The "flash-bangs" often "inadvertently" start fires, which then burn the place to the ground.

132 posted on 04/10/2008 5:09:15 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Pete98
Soon they’ll be tossing flash-bangs in the windows before

BATF agents, and later the FBI, did just that at Waco. The BATFE agents did it as part of their initial "warrant service" at Waco.

133 posted on 04/10/2008 5:34:15 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: DuncanWaring
Didn't they order that custom-engraved on some knives recently?

Leatherman type tools, not knives.

Bastids.

134 posted on 04/10/2008 5:46:44 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: supercat
I've never heard of a cop being prosecuted as a robber under such circumstances, but I see no reason one shouldn't be.

No intent to rob and no actually robbery. Breaking and entering, and if they so much as touch an occupant then felonious assault are possible charges. Then at the civil trial, mental anguish.

135 posted on 04/10/2008 5:49:03 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Jim Verdolini
American Gestapo means never having to say that you are sorry.
136 posted on 04/10/2008 6:02:33 PM PDT by oyez (Justa' another high minded lowlife.)
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To: El Gato
Leatherman type tools, not knives.

So it was.

137 posted on 04/10/2008 7:10:34 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Andonius_99; Minutemen

Or JATFFBIFU son of JANFU.


138 posted on 04/10/2008 8:33:48 PM PDT by magslinger (cranky right-winger)
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To: El Gato
No intent to rob and no actually robbery.

I thoguth that entering a dwelling with the purpose of attacking the occupants therein was classified as home invasion robbery, though I suppose some states might call it aggravated burglary or somesuch. Though you're right that if they actually encounter anyone, that would add in crimes of aggravated assault and/or aggravated battery. Perhaps most important, though: if anyone is killed, felony murder. A cop who wants to avoid a murder rap from a no-knock raid should be required to take personal responsibility for checking that the warrant matches the address. Anyone not willing to take such responsibility has no business conducting such raids.

139 posted on 04/10/2008 9:01:27 PM PDT by supercat
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To: wastedyears
"How would you feel if they ‘accidentally’ busted into your home, when their target was up the street?"

Methinks you are mis-reading my posting. I am saying that the cops were grossly in the wrong, and simply protecting their hides is NOT sufficient reason for "dynamic entry" type legal home invasions.

140 posted on 04/11/2008 5:21:25 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: ModelBreaker

The ATF dolts told the home owner whose house the raided that SHE was at the wrong place ! They did not apologize let alone REPAIR THE DAMAGE DONE TO HER HOME ! I will gladly bet you a 10 dollar bill to a box of donuts that there will not even be a reprimand for such a basic screw up as not having a clue as to were they are supposed to be going on a raid.


141 posted on 04/12/2008 12:04:15 AM PDT by Nebr FAL owner (.308 reach out & thump someone .50 cal.Browning Machine gun reach out & crush someone)
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To: All

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:h5122enr.txt.pdf


142 posted on 03/11/2009 11:07:49 AM PDT by PghBaldy (Obama told NYT Medicare Drug & TARP not his fault- he VOTED FOR THEM!!!)
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