Posted on 07/01/2008 12:58:14 PM PDT by rightwingintelligentsia
CNN) -- Democrats have usually conceded the evangelical vote during presidential elections, but Sen. Barack Obama is trying to change that by mobilizing what some call the "Christian left."
As part of his outreach to evangelical voters, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Tuesday will tour the Eastside Community Ministry in Zanesville, Ohio, and give an address on how he plans to build what he calls a "real" partnership between faith-based organizations and the White House if he becomes president.
Obama's outreach to evangelical voters has also included private summits with pastors, an effort to reach out to young evangelicals and a fundraiser with the Matthew 25 political action committee, which describes itself as a group of moderate evangelicals, Catholics and Protestants committed to electing the Illinois Democrat president.
Matthew 25's name is inspired by a biblical passage, in the 25th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, in which Jesus says, "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink." The name is meant to signal the group's focus on social justice concerns about hot-button cultural issues.
Brian McLaren, a former pastor who spent 24 years in the pulpit and is now an informal adviser to the Obama campaign, believes a significant portion of evangelical voters are ready to break from their traditional home in the the Republican Party and take a new leap of faith with Obama.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
(during the Huckabee-Romney wars)
YBPDLNPL Ping
The ping list has been quiet of late, but I suspect things wi pick up over the next couple of months....
I think you incorrect in lumping Bill Hybels and Rick Warren with the leftists. I disagree with quite a bit of what Hybels does...and to a lesser extent Rick Warren, but they are not liberal.
I'm not so sure of that myself. Willow Creek is showing signs of going squishy with the emergent types. They had Mr. McClaren in to speak at a conference recently.
http://www.confessionallutherans.org/papers/ToddW.htm
And possibly this...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1444233/posts
What about “he who is without sin cast the first stone”? Have you sinned since your salvation? I know have. Does that affect our salvation?
I’m not saying we have license to sin, clearly we do not. But our sins are forgiven if we accept that forgiveness, no? Abortion is obviously a sin and wrong and we should stand against it like we do all sin. But to say because someone engages in one sin or another, they are not a Christian? And then further to involve politics into it I think is questionable.
Certainly, through love we should try to righteously correct our brothers, but to say one person is a Christian and another is not because of his sin, is that our place?
It’s not a matter of having committed a sin, even one as heinous as murder,
it’s a matter of calling Evil Good and Good Evil,
and promoting the continuation of sin in others, and causing others to commit deadly sins (”better that a millstone”) that is the problem.
Get it?
And sins are only forgiven if the sinner admits his wrong and repents.
The pro-aborts are doing the opposite - instead of admitting their wrongs, they are attempting to justify their wrongs by getting others to do the same.
How many sins do we engage in that we are not even aware of. Christ said if you lust it is as if you commited adultery and if you hate it is as if you commited murder. How many of those sins do we miss?
If we do not acknowledge every sin we engage it, does that affect our salvation?
What is a Christian? Someone who accepts Christ as our Lord, no? Can someone do that and yet be wrong about their sin?
I agree with the first part, my concern is the politicization of it. I know people who are both left wing and un-saved. I’d rather them be saved and stay left wing then make them into un-saved conservatives.
And as far as sins only being forgiven if they are acknowledged, do you think you have recognized and acknowledged every sin you have ever commited? I think we sin constantly and do not even recognize it.
“It’s not a matter of having committed a sin, even one as heinous as murder,
it’s a matter of calling Evil Good and Good Evil,”
OK, I see what you are saying, but is being wrong unforgivable? Surely we do not recognize every evil. We are easily deceived and often we are too willing to be deceived to justify our actions, no? Does our salvation hinge on never tripping up in this regard?
I’m not the judge of anyone’s salvation - that’s up to the Big Guy.
However, it’s pretty biblically clear that we all understand right and wrong, as it is written in our hearts,
and that these folks are not only actively rejecting rebukes that remind them of the evil,
they are causing others to commit evil as well - KNOWINGLY, just to justify something they can’t forgive themselves for.
Again, not my place to say whether they are saved or not - but it is my place to “judge rightly” and to rebuke as lovingly as I can.
I responded to your statement that Christians are not free from sin. Clearly, in contradiction to what you stated, Romans 6 states that Christians are indeed free from sin.
Because Christians have been freed from sin, by Christ's atoning work at the Cross and His resurrection from the dead, they are compelled to obedience to Christ and to holy living based on the Bible.
But our sins are forgiven if we accept that forgiveness, no?
No...you have it backwards. Christians are foregiven, based on God's acceptance of Christ's sacrifice for our sins, when we ask for foregiveness. But...God also requires repentance, which is a change of heart that leads to a change of mind that leads to a change in the way that Christians are living their life, which is marked by obedience to Christ as shown in the Bible.
Scripture says that a Christian will be known by their fruit. If a person's fruit includes the endorsement of, and the passing of, legislation that promotes the killing of the unborn, partially born and the born, it is not difficult, at all, to determine that the fruit is not of Jesus Christ.
Do you think that Jesus would participate in, or endorse, allowing an abortion surviving infant to die on a garbage cart in a hospital trash room? An Illinois nurse testified, in front of Obama, to that very occurrence. In spite of that, Obama voted to prevent the saving of such children. That fruit is very telling.
If a person's fruit includes the endorsement of, and passing of legislation that promotes, the advancement of the radical homosexual agenda, it is not difficult, at all, to determine that the fruit is not of Jesus Christ.
When a person's fruit includes associations with radical black liberation theology and racism, which is not biblical (not even close); when a person's fruit includes associations with marxist, terrorist and the indicted (Rezko)...it is not difficult, at all, to determine that the fruit is not of Jesus Christ.
And God gave us a mind. When there is a significant lack of experience coupled with socialist, extreme liberal proposals/positions that have proven to not work and they are proven to destroy economies and free societies...Why would anyone, Christian or non-Christian, choose such a candidate?
Love?
Love for God and man would not endorse, or allow, the killing of an innocent child.
Love for God and man would not endorse a homosexual lifestyle when God says that homosexuals will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And...forget eternity for a moment, in the here and now, homosexuals have half the life span that heterosexual males have. Why would anyone promote a lifestyle that significantly reduces life span and has such a dire impact on eternity? You can't call that love!
Love for God and man makes it impossible for one to sit for twenty years in a racist, extreme black liberation theology church and to maintain a relationship with, and to take political and spiritual advisement from, its pastor.
If you think love is inclusive of any of these things, then...you are looking for love in all the wrong places!
Some people, who call themselves Christians, are being duped into voting for Obama because they don't know Christ and they don't know the Bible.
They just see a clean cut guy who can read a written speech well from the tele-prompter, and who mentions the word "god", and who talks of "hope" and "change" (while, in contradiction, he is surrounded by the Washington political establishment, hollywood, personal wealth, record-breaking campaign funds, advisers who have pushed for US military action in Darfur, negative campaigning, flip-flopping, socialists, communists, marxists, more corporate money than McCain, lobbyists and a liberal agenda that would make Bill Clinton blush) and they forget reality.
How many sins do we engage in that we are not even aware of. Christ said if you lust it is as if you commited adultery and if you hate it is as if you commited murder. How many of those sins do we miss?
If we do not acknowledge every sin we engage it, does that affect our salvation?
What is a Christian? Someone who accepts Christ as our Lord, no? Can someone do that and yet be wrong about their sin?
Abortion isn’t quite an unknown sin. In Obama’s case he opposed saving full term babies that were accidently born alive. Can he be a real Christian?
Don’t misunderstand, I completely agree with you on the morality of abortion and homosexuality, that is beyond clear. My main point was where does politics fit into this? I have questions about how I should I engage in politics as a Christian because it can be divisive and is of secondary importance to something eternal.
I believe you can be wrong and saved, but I could be wrong.
Even within my own church and bible study group people disagree on one doctrine or another. I think there is one fundamental to Christianity and that is salvation through faith in Christ who is God. But I’m allways learning and I appreciate your guidance in the matter. I will review it further in my Bible and with my elders.
Christ said that he came to divide...He came with a sword, not peace. His truth is divisive.
Where does politics fit into this?
Christians shouldn't be duped into voting for a radical leftist abortionist that carries water for the homosexual lobby because a consultant told him how to talk to evangelicals. If it walks like a duck but quacks like a moose...it most likely ain't a duck.
And as just plain Americans that enjoy the personal freedoms, and the form of government - with its limitations, set forth in the Constitution shouldn't be voting for a politician that endorses socialist policies.
I am not talking in terms of morality in regards to these issues...I am talking in terms of these issues being an affront to a holy God.
What commonness does light have with darkness?
It is impossible for a Christian to be part of their endorsement and/or advancement...that includes voting for a candidate who endorses and/or advances homosexuality and abortion as normative and acceptable.
I don't understand the distinction. What's your definition of morality?
It is impossible for a Christian to be part of their endorsement and/or advancement...that includes voting for a candidate who endorses and/or advances homosexuality and abortion as normative and acceptable.
I just don't believe that Christ's purpose was political. I think our faith should drive our politics but politics is secondary to eternity.
In regards to being "devisive", what I mean is that I don't want it to be an issue when I'm witnessing to someone. If someone doesn't like conservatives for whatever reason then I don't want that to be an issue between them and their salvation.
I think naturally as someone grows as a Christian they will see that their views are more in line with conservatism.
You can replace any sin with homosexuality and abortion in your statement, those sins aren't greater then others. And you can be assured that your politician of choice likely has supported questionable things.
Now I certainly cannot support a candidate that supports abortion and I cannot understand how any Christian could support such a candidate, but I think it's going too far for any of us to say unequivocally that "It is impossible for a Christian to..." Is it possible for a Christian to make a mistake?
Would you say that not a single one of Guilliani's or Schwartzeneggar's supporters are Chrsitians?
I should have said that it is impossible for a Christian to be part of their endorsement and/or advancement and still be pleasing to God.
Christ's purpose was not political and I never said that it was. But when we are aligned with Christ, through saving faith, our hearts and minds are renewed and transformed so that we do not find the "hope" and "change" offered by a socialist homosexual-agenda-pushing abortionist acceptable or appealing.
In regards to being "devisive", what I mean is that I don't want it to be an issue when I'm witnessing to someone. If someone doesn't like conservatives for whatever reason then I don't want that to be an issue between them and their salvation
Man...you seem to be all over the place.
So don't bring up politics when giving the Gospel. I find your comment really strange, anyways. So...do you hold to a firm position on anything lest someone be offended? The entire article is about left wing "Christians" voting for Obama. McLaren and his ilk are not afraid to espouse their false teachings and opinions - political and/or otherwise.
Besides...The Gospel is offensive in itself. The world hates Christ and His Gospel. It will offend them. Does that prevent you from giving the biblical Gospel?
And...I think that some people are more concerned, today, about not potentially offending people than they are about not offending God.
By the way McLaren does not believe: in a literal hell, that homosexuality is a sin, that the Church has ever presented the real Gospel, that Universalism is virtuous, that the rapture will occur, and many other key doctrines of historic orthodox Christianity. He is not one to follow. In fact, Romans tells us to mark him and avoid him.
By the way, to believe that you could come between someone and their salvation is, I believe, biblically impossible. Read John 6:38-44, John 1:12, and Acts 13:48. All that the Father gives to the Son will come to Him and He will raise them up at the last day. Man cannot thwart the work of God and salvation is a work of God.
Is it possible for a Christian to make a mistake?
So...you agree that it would be a mistake for a Christian to vote for Obama, now? Earlier, you seemed to be advocating that it would be "throwing stones" to make such a judgement. Don't you think that some people mind find your judgement offensive?
Guilliani got no traction as a Republican candidate because of his liberal views and Schwartzeneggar is bankrupting Califorinia - fiscally and morally. Christian or non-Christian, alike, are crazy for supporting either of these gentleman.
Agreed.
I should have said that it is impossible for a Christian to be part of their endorsement and/or advancement and still be pleasing to God.
Agreed.
Christ's purpose was not political and I never said that it was. But when we are aligned with Christ, through saving faith, our hearts and minds are renewed and transformed so that we do not find the "hope" and "change" offered by a socialist homosexual-agenda-pushing abortionist acceptable or appealing.
I agree with that too.
Man...you seem to be all over the place.
I have ADD. :)
So don't bring up politics when giving the Gospel. I find your comment really strange, anyways. So...do you hold to a firm position on anything lest someone be offended? The entire article is about left wing "Christians" voting for Obama. McLaren and his ilk are not afraid to espouse their false teachings and opinions - political and/or otherwise.
And we should confront them and correct them for Christ's sake not for a political party's sake. My concern is that the face of Christianity in popular culture is political and centered around abortion and homosexuality and that's not the core of Christianity.
Do we have free will in accepting grace? I believe so and if that's the case then it would seem to matter how we are perceived. If we have no free will in this regard then it doesn't matter.
Before I was saved I had a negative view of Christianity because I didn't understand it. When I was at the lowest point in my life I was loved by real Christians and my eyes were opened to Christ and I accepted Christ. (I was raised as a "Christian" but didn't have a relationship with Christ and became atheist during my early adulthood.)
Besides...The Gospel is offensive in itself. The world hates Christ and His Gospel. It will offend them. Does that prevent you from giving the biblical Gospel?
Of course I wouldn't be prevented from sharing the Gospel because it is offensive, but I disagree that it is offensive. I think it's beautifull.
And...I think that some people are more concerned, today, about not potentially offending people than they are about not offending God.
You may be right about that, and that's a problem.
By the way McLaren does not believe: in a literal hell, that homosexuality is a sin, that the Church has ever presented the real Gospel, that Universalism is virtuous, that the rapture will occur, and many other key doctrines of historic orthodox Christianity. He is not one to follow. In fact, Romans tells us to mark him and avoid him.
By the way, to believe that you could come between someone and their salvation is, I believe, biblically impossible. Read John 6:38-44, John 1:12, and Acts 13:48. All that the Father gives to the Son will come to Him and He will raise them up at the last day. Man cannot thwart the work of God and salvation is a work of God.
I won't disagree with that but something I'm confused about is the importance of being a witness if there is no effect (besides obviously being commanded to do so). Honestly that confuses me.
There are people in my bible study group who have differing positions on free will and it allways seems to come up.
So...you agree that it would be a mistake for a Christian to vote for Obama, now?
I allways have. When did I suggest otherwise? Again my very broad point is that I have concerns about our faith and politics.
Earlier, you seemed to be advocating that it would be "throwing stones" to make such a judgement. Don't you think that some people mind find your judgement offensive?
The "throwing stones" comment was in regards to the point that Christians don't sin.
Guilliani got no traction as a Republican candidate because of his liberal views and Schwartzeneggar is bankrupting Califorinia - fiscally and morally. Christian or non-Christian, alike, are crazy for supporting either of these gentleman.
I agree with that.
Let me be clear, I’m not in any way suggesting that we don’t stand against abortion and homosexuality. But perhaps we should broaden the topics that we engage the culture in. The bigger issue is salvation. We could eliminate both of those and everyone is still condemned without Christ.
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