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The Battle for Catholic Voters
TIME ^ | July 2, 2008 | AMY SULLIVAN

Posted on 07/03/2008 7:34:00 AM PDT by NYer

Douglas Kmiec is the kind of Catholic voter the GOP usually doesn't have to think twice about. The Pepperdine law professor and former Reagan Justice Department lawyer (Samuel Alito was an office mate) attends Mass each morning. He has actively opposed abortion for most of his adult life, working with crisis pregnancy centers to persuade women not to undergo the procedure. He is a member of the conservative Federalist Society and occasionally sends a contribution to Focus on the Family.

He is also a vocal supporter of Barack Obama. Kmiec made waves in the Catholic world in late March when he endorsed the Democratic candidate. But Kmiec insists that while he still considers himself a Republican, his choice is clear this election year. "I have grave moral doubts about the war, serious doubts about the economic course Republicans have followed over the last seven years, and believe that immigration reforms won't come about by Republican hands," he says. "Senator McCain would not be the strongest advocate for the balance of things that I care about."

A new Time poll of Catholic voters reveals that Kmiec is part of a broader pattern. Although Obama was thought to have a "Catholic problem" during the Democratic primaries, in which Hillary Clinton won a majority of Catholic votes, he has pulled even with John McCain among that constituency—Obama now polls 44% to his GOP opponent's 45%.

There are 47 million Catholic voters, and while they are too numerous and varied to speak of as a monolithic Catholic bloc, they have long been a kind of holy grail for presidential candidates.

(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: catholic; society
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1 posted on 07/03/2008 7:37:03 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
The winner of eight out of the past nine elections has captured a majority of Catholic votes (they voted for Al Gore in 2000), and there are large Catholic concentrations in key states like Florida, Ohio and New Mexico.

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


2 posted on 07/03/2008 7:38:28 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

If this fellow supports Mr. Obama, he is committing a mortal sin...because Mr. Obama believes deeply in abortion. In the Roman Catholic faith, committing an abortion, having an abortion or abetting in an abortion is a mortal sin.

If he votes for Mr. Obama, he had better get to confession quickly.


3 posted on 07/03/2008 7:40:58 AM PDT by RexBeach ("Americans never quit!" Douglas MacArthur)
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To: NYer

Attending Mass doesn’t cut it. Actually believing and putting that belief into practice does. His support of this abortionist, partial-birth abortionist, and botched-abortion-baby-killer negates all of his other empty gestures.


4 posted on 07/03/2008 7:41:19 AM PDT by frogjerk (Barry Hussein is Neville Chamberlain)
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To: NYer
Obama's campaign more closely resembles the 2004 Bush outreach effort.

Yeah, like Rev. Pfleger. Give me a break.

5 posted on 07/03/2008 7:46:35 AM PDT by frogjerk (Barry Hussein is Neville Chamberlain)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: RexBeach
If he votes for Mr. Obama, he had better get to confession quickly.

This "bottom-up, personal responsibility" message, as he describes it, appeals to Kmiec, allowing him to be not just a McCain skeptic but also an Obama supporter. That decision has not come without a cost—this spring Kmiec was denied Communion by a priest who denounced his endorsement of Obama.

A priest with the guts to defend the faith! Amen!

7 posted on 07/03/2008 7:48:29 AM PDT by frogjerk (Barry Hussein is Neville Chamberlain)
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To: NYer
Here is his "nuanced" justification:

"but what about a candidate like Obama who is not pro-abortion, but of the view that the civil law best leaves this question to the mother in consultation with their own clergyman and doctor?"

8 posted on 07/03/2008 7:50:19 AM PDT by Soliton (Investigate, study, learn, then express an opinion)
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To: MadMitch

Put on your flame-retardant suits, that was 4 alarm flame bait!


9 posted on 07/03/2008 7:50:46 AM PDT by EarthBound (Ex Deo,gratia. Ex astris,scientia (Who the hell do I vote for now?))
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To: frogjerk

Whoever that priest is, I’d enjoy shaking his hand and buying him a beer! God bless him.


10 posted on 07/03/2008 7:50:46 AM PDT by RexBeach ("Americans never quit!" Douglas MacArthur)
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To: frogjerk
The Obama frauds at Time drag out ONE phony Obama operative in America to peddle a bunch of BS. Obama is a pro abortion and pro partial birth and pro denying medical care to infants surviving abortions . Nothing else needs to be said.No wonder this leftist rag is DYING .
11 posted on 07/03/2008 7:52:16 AM PDT by ncalburt
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To: NYer

Kmiec is simply proof that no one is perfect. (sigh)


12 posted on 07/03/2008 7:56:27 AM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: MadMitch
I’ll make up my own mind rather than follow an Nazi based in Rome.

You have a serious problem.

13 posted on 07/03/2008 7:57:45 AM PDT by frogjerk (Barry Hussein is Neville Chamberlain)
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To: MadMitch
I’ll make up my own mind rather than follow an (sic) Nazi based in Rome.

Your sentiments are as pathetic as your grammar.

14 posted on 07/03/2008 7:59:27 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: RexBeach

Well I obviously support McCain over Obama, but I don’t think it’s fair to accuse this guy of committing a sin just by voting for a politician who commits a sin. Our system only gives us two choices every election and neither of them is almost ever anywhere even CLOSE to perfect. If moral voters refused to vote for any candidate who supports anything bad we’d all have to stay home.

I guess I’m the opposite of this guy. On balance I find McCain a better choice and abortion is one of the biggest reasons why. But, it’s still true that by voting for McCain I will be voting for somebody who supports some things I don’t support at all. I don’t think that means I’ve changed my opinion about them, just that I’m being practical and picking the choice I think is overall the better of the two.


15 posted on 07/03/2008 8:02:06 AM PDT by CatherinePPP
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To: frogjerk

Who was the priest and where? Amen! A priest with courage!!! This is why the battling the evil of abortion is so hard! Kmeic should say 50 million Our Fathers for the 50 million dead children who have died because of the evil of abortion! God have mercy on this country and it’s people!


16 posted on 07/03/2008 8:04:08 AM PDT by red irish (Gods Children in the womb are to be loved too!)
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To: NYer
still considers himself a Republican

Still considers himself a Christian, too.

17 posted on 07/03/2008 8:05:26 AM PDT by tbpiper (NObama '08 - Unfit in any color)
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To: MadMitch

Grow up! We are talking about a serious subject here.People who call themselves Christian and then proceed to support evil and that’s your remark?


18 posted on 07/03/2008 8:06:43 AM PDT by red irish (Gods Children in the womb are to be loved too!)
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To: MadMitch

>>I’ll make up my own mind rather than follow an Nazi based in Rome.<<

You’re from the AP aren’t you?


19 posted on 07/03/2008 8:13:51 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Iron Mom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: CatherinePPP

It’s the seriousness of the sin! How long can Christians vote for politicians who support the evil of abortion and let us not forget homosexuality agenda of the democratic party. I do believe there will be a drastic change in being allies with Israel if Obama wins as well. But if Christians can’t go against candidates who support and promote abortion,in all stages and more,then we are nothing more than pagans. 50 million dead children,14 million African American children,yea this is serious sin. Our Savior came from the womb,you would think it would be sacred. But now it is used as a death chamber,but Jesus brought eternal life to all of us through the womb of Mary.


20 posted on 07/03/2008 8:18:56 AM PDT by red irish (Gods Children in the womb are to be loved too!)
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To: MadMitch

Membership in the Hitler youth was mandatory. See if this is sufficent authority to debunk your slander: http://bambenek.blogspot.com/2005/04/jews-come-out-to-defend-pope-benedict.html

Such a jerk you are.


21 posted on 07/03/2008 8:20:11 AM PDT by j.havenfarm (So what does a "community organizer" do, anyway?)
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To: CatherinePPP
Well I obviously support McCain over Obama, but I don’t think it’s fair to accuse this guy of committing a sin just by voting for a politician who commits a sin.

Doug Kmiec describes himself as a Mass attending Catholic that believes that he is in communion with the Church. He is publicly supporting a candidate that will do everything it takes to ensure abortion on demand, partial-birth abortion, and the killing of botched abortion babies. This would be formal cooperation in an intrinsic evil, a grave offense. The Church, he supposedly is a member of, attaches the penalty of excommunication for this formal cooperation in the sin of abortion.

22 posted on 07/03/2008 8:22:00 AM PDT by frogjerk (Barry Hussein is Neville Chamberlain)
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To: RexBeach

Only if you’re truly repentant can you “go to confession quickly” and be forgiven. Something isn’t getting through to this fella no matter how many Masses he attends. I’m thinking that because of his hands on pro-life work, he somehow thinks this gets him off the hook for his voting for a pro-death candidate. Accusing somebody of self-righteousness is a serious charge. But is this person hust another cafeteria Catholic?

Amazing how we can rationalize any of our sticking points (sin) especially when we have someone who has a bullhorn and shouts it in your ear often and loud enough for you to have heard it. (Our Pope) No ambiguity, no gray areas, no confusion here if you stick with the holy father. Until Satan enters the picture and clouds your mind with great rhetorical flourish. Much like some politicians obviously can.

Believe me, I know. I’m a sinner too, and listen to that other voice in my soul. It would just be so much better if people who have a lot of influence like the gentleman in the story understood how much responsiblity (to the Lord) for that influence he has and how much it really affects people around him who respect him. Very confusing to a fellow Catholic who hears him and thinks that he must think the pope is whacked to impugn guilt to him by his vote for someone who pro death. It will influence that person to think the same erroneous thing.

I really wish I understood the thinking process behind the getting to this conclusion. You can’t really say that he was badly catechized if he’s as seemingly faithful as his daily Mass attendance and other works would indicate.


23 posted on 07/03/2008 8:26:13 AM PDT by SaintDismas
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To: j.havenfarm

Who should a President serve the Pope or the people who elect him?


24 posted on 07/03/2008 8:28:20 AM PDT by MadMitch
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To: RexBeach
You are correct -- if fact, any Catholic who votes for Obama is excommunicating herself/himself.

enter the Table of Contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church here

1: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2271  (618 bytes )  preview document matches
1 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion,
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2271.htm
97%**********

2: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2272  (580 bytes )  preview document matches
2 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2272.htm
96%**********

3: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2322  (290 bytes )  preview document matches
2 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3),
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2322.htm
96%**********

4: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2274  (554 bytes )  preview document matches
gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2274.htm

25 posted on 07/03/2008 8:28:40 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: wequalswinner
After scripture study with week, a group of us hung around to shoot the breeze.

The priest made it very clear that in his opinion, Obama would be an out of the quesition chose for any Catholic voter.

26 posted on 07/03/2008 8:29:20 AM PDT by mware
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To: MadMitch; antonius
But should a president care about the babies and children?


27 posted on 07/03/2008 8:29:38 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: ncalburt; RexBeach; Soliton; NYer; SumProVita; Prokopton; red irish; netmilsmom; j.havenfarm
Good related article regarding National Review and this chump.

http://crankycon.politicalbear.com/2008/06/17/memo-to-doug-kmiec-shuuuuuuuut-uuuuuuuuuuuup/

29 posted on 07/03/2008 8:30:56 AM PDT by frogjerk (Barry Hussein is Neville Chamberlain)
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To: mware

Great to hear that.


30 posted on 07/03/2008 8:31:11 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All
The Battle for Catholic Voters

New Report Indicates Voters Most Interested in Barack Obama’s Position on Abortion

Deal Hudson: Obama and Infanticide?

Ad asks Obama: ‘If fatherhood begins at conception, when does life begin?’

Embryonic stem-cell research immoral, unnecessary, bishops say

Catholics should not vote for Obama

Catholic Caucus: It is a sin to vote/support Obama/DNC [abortion]

More Catholics leaning towards Democrats, poll reports (really not Catholics)

The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)

Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion....

NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama

Editorial: Disagreeing with Doug Kmiec One More Time

State-Funded Embryo Research "Makes Taxpayers Complicit in Killing", say Bishops

McCain Meets Privately with Fr. Pavone - Says Constitutional Right to Life Applies to Unborn

Faithful Citizenship: “Catholic Vote” is very sought after

Has Obama dissolved his Catholic advisory council?

Commentary: Faithful Citizenship and the Formed Conscience

Catholic League: Where's Obama's 'Catholic Advisory Council'? [Not to be found!]

Right-wing Christians beginning to lean left (Misleading headline)

Catholics Debate Obama Vote

US Bishops Urge Voters to Give Priority to Life [Ecumenical]

Corralling the Catholic vote: Political necessity or pipe dream?

DOUG KMIEC: Catholic Reasons for Hope in the General Election

EDITORIAL: Why This Catholic Dreads the Campaign

The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)

Thoughts On ‘Roman Catholics For Obama’

How Obama's Catholics Will Dodge the Infanticide Question

Catholic Pro-Life Leader Feuds With Barack Obama's "Catholic" Backers

McCain and the Pope: McCain cannot win in November without the Catholic vote (Reagan re-visited?)

Catholics Cannot Vote for Pols Who Support Abortion, Except for Morally Grave Reasons: KY Bishops

31 posted on 07/03/2008 8:31:40 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: MadMitch

Your prior statement was false. When are you going to ‘fess up to that? Second, what the #@$%^ does this latest comment mean? Really, what kind of knuckle dragger are you? It’s slander after slander from you. Name one politician, either party, any time in our history, who can be said to have “sevred the Pope.” P.S. Just being a Catholic doesn’t count.

Surely you don’t call youself a Christian, what with your ignorant and hateful views.

Still waiting for the apology on the Nazi thing.


32 posted on 07/03/2008 8:33:47 AM PDT by j.havenfarm (So what does a "community organizer" do, anyway?)
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To: red irish; frogjerk

You don’t have to convince me... I’ve never voted for a politician who supported abortion and I never will. :-) But, I just don’t think with the way our government is set up you can necessarily assume voters agree with every position of a politician. Some voters don’t even get a choice. In some states like California, neither candidate is pro-life, so a pro-life person either has to pick one of them or stay home. You have to take the best you can get sometimes. I don’t know what I’ll do if McCain picks a pro-abortion VP to be honest with you. I sure hope it doesn’t come to that but whether I can bring myself to vote for a ticket like that or not, I still wouldn’t call anybody who finds it in them to vote for them anyway a sinner.


33 posted on 07/03/2008 8:34:56 AM PDT by CatherinePPP
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To: MadMitch

There was an article here the other day about Baptists doing the same, and let’s not even talk about the NEA.

You called the Pope a Nazi. What would bring that on? What does it have to do with child abuse?

So you’re going to vote for Obama because the Pope is a Nazi? I’m I understanding you correctly?


34 posted on 07/03/2008 8:35:02 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Iron Mom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: NYer

Unless he’s had a serious head injury lately, he was never a Republican and was a subversive in the conservative organizations mentioned. Or he’s just an idiot of the most massive caliber.


35 posted on 07/03/2008 8:37:53 AM PDT by According2RecentPollsAirIsGood
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To: CatherinePPP

It’s not a question of being fair. It is a matter of faith.

Some things are always wrong. Abortion is one of them, according to the Roman Catholic faith.


36 posted on 07/03/2008 8:38:30 AM PDT by RexBeach ("Americans never quit!" Douglas MacArthur)
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To: MadMitch

No, no. Not millions. BILLIONS. A tiny minority of priests, abetted by some bad actor Bishops. Paying the money now isn’t to cover it up. These are open agreements to settle pending litigation. A great shame on the Church, but you’re not really suggesting that remaining a Catholic means one “supports child abuse,” are you? I’m beginning to think you’re pulling our legs. No one is this obtuse.


37 posted on 07/03/2008 8:38:44 AM PDT by j.havenfarm (So what does a "community organizer" do, anyway?)
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To: RexBeach

***If he votes for Mr. Obama, he had better get to confession quickly.***

Please allow me to expand on your statement for the edification of anyone who doesn’t understand the rules of Confession. He had better get to confession quickly, and HAVE TRUE REPENTANCE FOR HIS SIN, or his Confession is worthless.


38 posted on 07/03/2008 8:40:00 AM PDT by kitkat (DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW)
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To: kitkat

You are exactly correct! If you do not repent, it doesn’t count.

Thanks. -Rex


39 posted on 07/03/2008 8:41:25 AM PDT by RexBeach ("Americans never quit!" Douglas MacArthur)
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

“Douglas Kmiec is the kind of Catholic voter...”

Who has abandoned his Catholicism.

Doug Kmiec is an apostate.


41 posted on 07/03/2008 8:52:06 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NYer

All those McCain haters have wrought this...and the country will suffer.


42 posted on 07/03/2008 9:14:33 AM PDT by Natchez Hawk (Truth: The anti-drug war.)
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To: frogjerk

Excellent link! Thanks. Francis Beckwith has it right on target:

“The truth is that Doug Kmiec does not have a conceptual grasp of what the prolife position actually is. It is not about “reducing the number of abortions,” though that is certainly a consequence that all prolifers should welcome. Rather, the prolife position is the moral and political belief that all members of the human community are intrinsically valuable and thus are entitled to protection by the state.”


43 posted on 07/03/2008 9:17:29 AM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: frogjerk
He can always join the Jesuit churches that all the other great Catholics that champion the dem party and their heinous policies like Russert etc... attend. I just want him and his ilk to get the hell out of my Catholic Church.
44 posted on 07/03/2008 9:27:55 AM PDT by mimaw
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To: sitetest

One might consider that the abortion issue is like a comet that comes back only every 4 years during Presidential elections and is absent in all interim elections slackens interest.

This issue does not grab Catholics like it used to. Choice is now included in the GOP big tent. Guiliani was once the leading contender and GOP governors are not challenged.

Catholics are also interested in economic family issues like jobs, health care and education costs. On social issues, helping the poor brings more recruits at Church than abortion clinic protests.

The abortion issue has to have a life span in politics greater than a Presidential election or fade as a wedge issue.


45 posted on 07/03/2008 9:34:31 AM PDT by ex-snook ("Above all things, truth beareth away the victory.")
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To: NYer
Catholic conservatives make abortion their #1 issue. They are not nearly concerned as with fiscal conservatism.

They were generally New Dealers. Even on this thread one can see Catholics are most interested in the abortion issue. Of course abortion is an abomination, but socialism is a larger abomination, tearing at the fabric of family which RESULTS in sexual atrocities like abortion, homosexuality, and the welfare state in general.

Socialism is the Catholic weak spot. This is how the Dems will exploit them.

46 posted on 07/03/2008 10:00:22 AM PDT by what's up
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To: NYer
He is also a vocal supporter of Barack Obama.

The legacy of Cardinal Bernadin allows cover for these guys who claim to be Catholic and yet vote for the most pro-baby-killing politicians they can finde.

Truly sickening.
47 posted on 07/03/2008 10:04:27 AM PDT by Antoninus (Every second spent bashing McCain is time that could be spent helping Conservatives downticket.)
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To: NYer
He is also a vocal supporter of Barack Obama.

The legacy of Cardinal Bernadin allows cover for these guys who claim to be Catholic and yet vote for the most pro-baby-killing politicians they can find.

Truly sickening.
48 posted on 07/03/2008 10:04:37 AM PDT by Antoninus (Every second spent bashing McCain is time that could be spent helping Conservatives downticket.)
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To: what's up
Catholic conservatives make abortion their #1 issue. They are not nearly concerned as with fiscal conservatism.

This is one Catholic Conservative that is both a fiscal and a social conservative.

I am anti-abortion, support the war in the middle east, think taxes are way to high, see the need for people to get training/ education to get off welfare, and if they don't want that then kick them off. I am all in favor of the Second amendment and think that guns are not the problem, but one part of the solution, along with stiff sentences including the death penalty.

Here is the real kicker I teach at a public High school

49 posted on 07/03/2008 10:09:58 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: ex-snook
This issue does not grab Catholics like it used to

This is not my experience. I believe this is coming to the forefront as it should have been from the beginning.

50 posted on 07/03/2008 10:25:30 AM PDT by frogjerk (Barry Hussein is Neville Chamberlain)
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