Skip to comments.Blogger admits Hawaii birth certificate forgery, subverting Obama claims (Uh-oh)
Posted on 07/03/2008 4:35:19 PM PDT by SE Mom
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Assuming the speculation is correct, Obama would qualify above.
No. To qualify under (f), his parentage must be "unknown"--Obama is known to be the child of Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Sr.
When was that amendment passed?
If the amendment was made after Obama's birth, then he might be considered a "Citizen at birth," if he was born in Kenya, but he would not be a Natural Born Citizen.
In order to be a "Natural Born Citizen" you must have been born a Citizen and not made a citizen by legislative fiat. Congress does have the power to make anyone a citizen, or even a "citizen at birth", but they do not have the power to make a "Natural Born Citizen" out of a person who was not a citizen at the time of his birth.
That's just it. It was a MILITARY provision. Obama's parents were not military.
But when you look at the British meaning, it refers to citizens by birth, and it makes sense that those who are not "natural-born" would be those who are "natural-ized"...clearly, even this layman can see that he would not require naturalization, and falls under the "by birth" section of 8 USC 1401.
My research shows that that amendment was adopted in 1986 and therefore it was not in effect in 1961 and thus while it would make a person a citizen at birth, it would not make a person a "Natural Born" Citizen.
Thus while it would make Obama a Citizen, it would not give him "Natural Born" status. It would simply give him "Ex-Post Facto Legislatively Mandated Citizenship at Birth" status.
B. Obama's mother didn't need credit for those years, anyway, so the military proviso isn't needed to help in meeting the 2-year/5-year/14-year-old requirement.
Its just a plain weakness of FR that it doesn't have a topical memory so that items of interest can be more easily accessed. We end up needing to repeat over and over in threads links to make these connections.
Initially, I attempted to follow the practice of citing references on the collateral issues however the volume of legal issues began to build up so I attempted to focus on them and stopped looking for references on the collateral questions
Well.. you have made quite a few statements that need backtracks to substantiate that have nothing to do with questions of law per se...
I am going to for the moment step away from the whole McCain isn't a natural citizen and such and the McCaskill bill that you haven't cited a source that actually contains language that helps Obama. Frankly, even without links you have provided enough substantial citations for your opinion for one to consider it regardless of what one takes away.
Lets work our way through these others one at a time..
The only thing that admits of a response is the Vital Statistics point. The newspapers in Hawaii of the day published each day, births and deaths and marriages of the preceding 24 hours. Someone has gone through and looked at library editions of those newspapers for August 3, 1961 to learn that nowhere in the first week of August is there publication of the birth of this guy under any of the available names. His mother doesn't appear anywhere as a mother either.
This is interesting.. but without who the "someone" is or where this "fact" is published (Link).. its pretty empty.. I am sure you can understand.. anyone can write anything..
I assume there is some factual background behind the Israel news reports regarding the investigation and product thereof, Kenya birth records demonstrating that Obama was born there. I assume further that he will never be able to produce a provable Certificate of his birth in Hawaii although it should be recognized that the Hawaii birth records employees are probably Liberals who support Obama and who will participate in any reasonable effort to support his position.
This needs a link to the article(s) mentioned. The next may just be a restatement of the former.. but it reflects more "facts" of interest without the grounding of the sources.
there is a reported interview of the "grandmother" and two of his half-siblings that purports to claim they were present at his birth in Kenya; and there is the Wayne Madsen update reporting that three investigators hired to investigate Obama's background in Kenya have located official records of his birth in Kenya confirming that his birth occurred in that country.
I think thats about all. When you cite these facts and in some place you do them all at once.. just drop in the links and that will handle the back chatter.
Even if it had info he didn’t want to release? I doubt it.
You might have faith in his sweet, giving character, but I don’t.
This is addressing a person born out of wedlock, but they still had to fit in the critia as put forth on the date of their birth. In 1961 the citizen parent had to live in the U.S. 10 years. Five of those before the age of 16 and 5 after the age of 16. Since Barack was born when his mother was 18, she had not met the critera of the 5 years after the age of 16.
You said “Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such persons birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.”
But note this only refers to NATIONALITY, not CITIZENSHIP.
“While most people and countries use the terms citizenship and nationality interchangeably, U.S. law differentiates between the two [see Section 101(a)(21)-(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA)]. Under current law all U.S. citizens are also U.S. nationals, but not all U.S. nationals are U.S. citizens.” http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf
Agreed. Although I think you're missing my point. That proviso would be totally irrelevant for even the people needing credit for military service if the whole thing truly referred to only post-1986 births.
Well, this "fake" is new and the guy who did it was pretty talented but it only holds for posting on the internet. The passport examiners won't take copies, electronic images or such. They want original embossed and stamped documents or you get no where.
Moreso, if Obama provided a "fake" BC for his passport.. he could quit worrying about eligibility to be president and instead start worrying about staying out of prison.
Now what is more likely, is that he does have a Hawaii birth certificate but that it has something they don't want out.. so that a passport could be issued without any big issue as the question is just citizenship or not, rather than the question of meeting a Constitutional test, so at the time.. it wasn't an issue.
And perhaps that’s the operative clause in this case. He said he didn’t look into that detail.
Also, note that things are different whether the father or mother is the citizen. The law didn’t always consider that.
Isn't this what Obama is trying to hide....?
And your basis for that claim is...?
Section 1401 deals with citizens by birth...and those citizens are natural-born citizens, as opposed to those who have to be naturalized.
McKinnon probably didn’t even originate the image. I think he modified an already existing spoof.
As to letting this matter drop. Thats lame. If FR earns its place in the world, its by this sort of analysis and debate.
Yea, there are several folks who make themselves look silly and careless, but mixed in with that chatter is some really good scholarship and FReeping.. and its a joy to see a thread like this what ever the subject, because it digs at the truth.
Well done, and don't apologize for doing a great job.
He's running for President. Citizenship is not enough to qualify, otherwise Schwarzenegger could be President.
Dear Lord, do I have to explain this on every Obama B/C thread?
Yeah, why can't conservatives strive for the "fake-but-accurate" reputation, too?!
The words and intent of the Constitution. Some people don't think that the words have any meaning at all. I do.
Apparently so. And sometimes several times on the same thread.
1. The real one shows that Obama is not really a citizen.
2. The real one shows October Surprise material, something so bad that it may interfere very badly with his campaign. There has been specualtion, for instance, that the original will somehow provide evidence that his father was married to one or more women other than his mother. Just an indication that his parents represented themselves to the State as unmarried would be enough evidence to get somebody on that trail and open that can of worms.
3. Obama is so incompetent he can't successfully oversee the maintenance of his personal documents.
None of those possibilities is very palatable to me, an American who was already wondering with horror how the heck this neophyte got to be seriously considered for the job of leading the free world.
If that is true, then Congress has the power to make Arnold Schwarzenegger a "Natural Born Citizen" merely by declaring him one.
I believe post #564 is addressed to you.
You have not demonstrated that BHO used an original embossed and stamped birth certificate to get his passport. There are a number of substitute documents that can be used for the purposes of getting a passport, as detailed in post #564.
Therefore the validity or even the existence of a document he may not have even used to get a passport is moot.
The validity of what he is purporting to be his BC on his web site is still very much in play.
As it is neither embossed, nor stamped, and shows some electronic fingerprints of tampering, it is hardly proof positive of his birth as a citizen.
This guy is either a fagola who cannot admit his age or a man occupying space/time in a most unusual manner. You decide.
I understand completely. You see folks doing this over and over.. posting summaries in new threads.. and you think.. gosh.. they should give it up.. but honestly its a service just like the folks who do lists. It saves alot of ignorant posts fighting over facts.
What we need is a Free Republic Wiki that integrates with the threads so that we can access them and manage articles that summarize our understanding of each topic so that as new facts and info is added we don't have to keep repeating ourselves in the threads to maintain a memory of what has already been established.
Good grief- as of a minute ago there are:
I’m not apologizing- just acknowledging there are more than a few freepers who disagree with the focus this topic is receiving- it’s a reasonable point of view.
And yet...there are so many nagging doubts and questions- it’s equally reasonable NOT to let this go til we have satisfactory answers.
Based on the words, he would qualify for office.
Based on the intent, he would qualify for office.
...and often to the very same people.
uh...that post was supposed to have your words before my last graf. I was saying that I believe the words of the Constitution have meaning.
IF and only IF he actually WAS born in Hawai’i.
The fact that the ONLY document saying he was may be fake doesn’t bother you?
Why is that?
Second, even if Obama is absolutely, positively, 110% a naturalized citizen, why is it stupid for us to wonder why a presidential candidate would be unwilling to provide a copy of this minor document? Why is it stupid to wonder why it is so secret that he was willing to produce a forgery in its place? And if Obama didn't know it was a forgery, what does it say about his competence? Why are those questions stupid?
Third, Ernbatavia...are you sure he was born in Hawaii...because we haven't seen a birth certificate!
This was inacted in 1986 and the key word here is PROVIDED. Baracks parents were not military,employed with the U.S. Government, or an Internatioal Organization defined in section 288. It does not say this is retroactive either.
Barack fits into the law that was in place in 1961. Citizen parent has to have been a U.S. citizen 10yrs. 5 before the age of 16 and 5 after the age 16. Baracks mother gave birth at 18yrs so she did not meet the 5 yrs after the age of 16.
Now all this only applies if he was born in Kenya or outside the U.S. and since they are furnishing a phony birth certificate it makes one wonder what he is hiding.
Point of order. That should say:
Third, Ernbatavia...are you sure he was born in Hawaii...because we haven't seen a known, unquestionably valid birth certificate!
It's a minor, but very crucial point...
The fake certificate has been featured on Obama's fight the smears website. That's either fraud or incompetence, and either is evidence against this candidate being qualified to lead the USA.
I think it was meant to signify the issuance date of the Certificate, which was supposed to look like a replacement for a certificate issued at the time of birth. Of course, it’s all fake.
Does it strike anyone as odd that this information happened to be “discovered” on the Independence Day weekend. It’s well known that if there’s a bad story, the best thing to do is release on the weekend when the news is slow. This gives the Obama Propoganda Secretaries (aka ABCNBCCBSCNNNYTIMES) an even bigger reason to bury this story. The media will downplay this as an error that doesn’t matter. Just like Rev Wright, Ayers, 57 states, Vesco, Obama’s voting/non-voting record, etc.
I ask people at work if they have heard about the latest screwup about Obama. They seemed bummed out about voting for Obama, but also don’t feel like voting for McCain.
Yes, there was. Some people had an embarassing level of ignorance about the issue and didn't realize that a U.S. military base is U.S. soil.
This summarizes the different requirements, as they changed over the years for children board abroad to be considered citizens.
“Between 12/24/1952 and 11/13/1986:
If one parent is a U.S. citizen, the U.S. citizen parent must have resided in the U.S. for 10 years, at least 5 of which were after age 14.”
IF Obama was indeed born abroad, he couldn’t be a citizen based on these rules, because Obama’s Mother doesn’t meet that criteria, since she was only 18, when Obama was born, that would be only 4 years spent in the US after age 14.
The bill applied to the children of Military. But the fact that the Democrats put it forth for McCain is a trick in order when the time comes they will say we need to do the same for Obama even though he isn't military. They will write out a bill to cover him.
If the number were not blacked out, all Obama would have to do is instruct anyone who was in doubt as to which one was real to send a copy of his (including the certificate number) to the state of Hawaii along with $5, and Hawaii would send back confirmation staying that it was real (and thus any other certificate that disagreed with it was fake).
In short, blacking out the number has exactly the opposite effect from what you claim.
“Does it strike anyone as odd that this information happened to be discovered on the Independence Day weekend. Its well known that if theres a bad story, the best thing to do is release on the weekend when the news is slow. This gives the Obama Propoganda Secretaries (aka ABCNBCCBSCNNNYTIMES) an even bigger reason to bury this story. The media will downplay this as an error that doesnt matter. Just like Rev Wright, Ayers, 57 states, Vesco, Obamas voting/non-voting record, etc.”
This is typical at least since the days of the Clintoons to release bad news late on Friday for normal weekends or in the case on Thursday.
Besides ignoring the news and spiking it. The delay gives the rats controlling the DNC and MSM time to develop a new set of lies and spins to neutralize the bad news.
I disagree, the border is different from the known real version of this certificate yet the revision number is the same. I believe that there is some reason for this.. you see the lines in the border were it was pasted together.. on a real official document this would be cause to send the thing back to the engraver.
Folks have found some reason to believe that it was printed and folded and perhaps rescanned before being modified but I very much doubt that the original was truly a scan of a real Hawaiian blank certificate.