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Russia seizes Georgia base, opens second front
AP ^ | Aug 11, 2008 | MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI

Posted on 08/11/2008 8:16:28 AM PDT by Jeff Head

TBILISI, Georgia — Russia opened a second front of fighting in Georgia on Monday, sending armored vehicles beyond two breakaway provinces and seizing a military base and police stations in the country's west, the Georgian government and a Russian official said.

GEORGIAN FORCES

RUSSIAN FORCES


(Excerpt) Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: caucasus; energy; geopolitics; georgia; georgianconflict; russia; russianinvasion; southossetia; war
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To: Stolly
I don't really care what Georgia did. I do care about the quality of US intelligence. It didn't see Russia massing tanks?
101 posted on 08/11/2008 9:00:07 AM PDT by isrul (Help make every day, "Disrespect a muzzie day.")
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To: Jeff Head

Thanks Jeff. I coincidentally found another map. The pipline runs through a town south of Tiblisi, which in turn is south of Gori.


102 posted on 08/11/2008 9:00:45 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: ChinaThreat

Agree with post #20.


103 posted on 08/11/2008 9:01:18 AM PDT by Canedawg
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To: Prophet in the wilderness

Dude, Nukes? Are you insane?


104 posted on 08/11/2008 9:01:31 AM PDT by Michael Barnes (You will know I am dead when a news paper reoprts "The Government has Michael Barnes' guns".)
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To: DonaldC
I am calm. The Russians are in the process of invading and conquering, by force of arms, one of our staunch allies. And an ally that sits strategically astraddle a critical oil line for the Europeans and ourselves.

The allies of Russia that have left them did so by their own choice after the breakup. Georgia certainly is not wanting to be mauled by the Bear.

We need to act in whatever prudent and measured way we can to blunt this land and oil grab. There will certainly be a long term repsone to this...but we do have a window of opportunity before Tiblisi actually falles, to make some progress in the short term.

But that is just my opinion...others clearly feel differently.

Clearly though, how we react to this test, will have consequences in how we are perceived and who trusts us and how much they trust us for a long time to come.

105 posted on 08/11/2008 9:02:21 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: maquiladora

this is where the rubber meets the road - it was one thing to let them secure S. Otessia, but a completely different matter to retake Georgia . . .


106 posted on 08/11/2008 9:02:35 AM PDT by jhpigott
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To: Jeff Head
I already knew that.. I was just saying in a sarcastic way the irony of the MSM . Liberals of all there BS talk about anti-war, no blood for oil.
It's all anti-American BS .... the Liberals could careless about the people of Georgia.
107 posted on 08/11/2008 9:03:23 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM .53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no GOD.)
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To: Jeff Head
Scale, scope, and logistics of this Russian invasion show that this was not some self-defense measure; it was a pre-calculated attempt to force Russia's will on Georgia. Russia has returned to its Soviet/Tsarist roots as an Imperial power. It's sales of uranium to Iran, its sales of weapons including air defense to Iran, its sales of weapons to Syria, its sales of weapons to Venezuela, and its blocking of effective sanctions against Iran all show that it intends to play the role of the supporter of barbarism in the world. Russia is turning inward towards its dark past. Its journalist are murdered and its neighbors are threatened and actually attacked. Putin is an evil man.
108 posted on 08/11/2008 9:03:38 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: Prophet in the wilderness

Exactly.


109 posted on 08/11/2008 9:03:51 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: eastforker
US can not go head to head with Russia without starting WWIII

How about if they assault the Ukraine?
The Baltic States?
Poland?
Germany?
France?
Great Britain?
The United States?

At what point in this progression should we confront them?

110 posted on 08/11/2008 9:04:08 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Obama "King of Kings and Lord of Lords")
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To: TheBattman

If he hadn’t made a speech in Georgia and spefically expressed support of them...


111 posted on 08/11/2008 9:04:41 AM PDT by autumnraine
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To: Jeff Head

this test, will have consequences in how we are perceived ............................................................................................You got that right Jeff, something in the way of a response has to be made, a message has to be sent.


112 posted on 08/11/2008 9:04:47 AM PDT by eastforker (Get-R-Done and then Bring-Em- Home)
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To: autumnraine

IMO, this is payback as much as anything else. Poopin has been itching for some way to bring an ‘in your face’ moment to the United States for a number of perceived insults we have given him. Bombing Serbia, recognizing Kosovo, supporting NATO on his doorstep, missile defense in Poland, military training in Georgia, Poopin was desperate to teach us a lesson.

I do agree with there being ulterior motives. There are certainly bonuses included.

IMO, we would do well to think long and hard about getting involved in Georgia. IMO, we’re not just talking about Georgia here. Poopin is signaling that he will take over any territory he likes if we don’t give in on every subject in the future.

Should we allow that to stand? Do we want to write off every state that left the Soviet fold? Do we want to write off Poland and other nations as well?

I don’t think this is going to be an easy thing to just ignore. Russia needs a bloody nose, before it thinks it can rule the playground.

I don’t like the idea of it, but this could get very ugly if we don’t put our foot down.

This is the reason why we should never have adopted the one theater level of military preparedness.


113 posted on 08/11/2008 9:04:58 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Spot on...on all counts IMHO. Now, we have to respond toi it...and sweet talk, or low key dimplomacy will not in the least deter Putin.


114 posted on 08/11/2008 9:06:00 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: ChinaThreat
While we are indeed friends with Georgia, it is ridiculous though to think we should get involved in a direct war with Russia over this

< march1939> While we are indeed friends with Czechoslovakia, it is ridiculous though to think we should get involved in a direct war with Germany over this.< /march1939>

115 posted on 08/11/2008 9:06:13 AM PDT by Technogeeb
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Comment #116 Removed by Moderator

To: Jeff Head

Strategically, I think you’re addressing the hard truth of this. Poopin is rolling out a new policy, and he either gets his hand cut off here, or he extends this treatment to other states as well. Seems to me this is when you make your stand.

We either make this ass-hat pay, or he’s going to do this again and again.


117 posted on 08/11/2008 9:07:56 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: DoughtyOne
You are exactly spot on and hitting well within the ring with all of those statments. I agree completely.
118 posted on 08/11/2008 9:07:58 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

The Baltic States?
Poland?
Germany?
France?
Great Britain?
The United States?
........................................These are all part of NATO, much different scenario, Georgia is not unfortunatley and Russia wants to make sure they never will be.


119 posted on 08/11/2008 9:08:04 AM PDT by eastforker (Get-R-Done and then Bring-Em- Home)
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To: DoughtyOne

“This is the reason why we should never have adopted the one theater level of military preparedness.”

True that!


120 posted on 08/11/2008 9:08:09 AM PDT by DonaldC
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To: Jeff Head

Russians take Gori.


121 posted on 08/11/2008 9:08:51 AM PDT by Natchez Hawk (What's so funny about the first, second, and fourth amendments?)
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To: Jeff Head

“Because the anti-war American left is just that...anti-American and much more closely aligned with our enemies than with our own traditional national interests or underlying priniciples.”

You WILL take notice that “all The Usual Leftist Suspects” are quite silent about this Russian agression?

Why are they not screaming for Putin’s impeachment?


122 posted on 08/11/2008 9:09:03 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Beware Of False Prophets/ME-ssiahs Selling Hopium....)
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To: jhpigott

I don’t know if they want to occupy the whole country, I think what they might be doing is moving in deeper to totally destory the Georgian military, base by base and unit by unit, then they’ll probably pull back and occupy South Ossetia once they feel its crippled.


123 posted on 08/11/2008 9:09:18 AM PDT by maquiladora
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To: TheBattman

It does seem that, at a minimum, GWB could cut short his China vacation. Maybe if he gave up women volleyball players for the Oval Office, our government wouldn’t be flailing for direction.


124 posted on 08/11/2008 9:10:19 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Old, pale and stale - McCain in 2008! but we're only one vote away from losing the 2nd amendment...)
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To: isrul
I don't really care what Georgia did. I do care about the quality of US intelligence. It didn't see Russia massing tanks?

The Russians have been playing large scale war games in the area. I'm sure we and the Georgian President knew it. Why he picked this time to try and reclaim that city is a mystery to me. It may have been a fatal mistake for his country.

125 posted on 08/11/2008 9:10:21 AM PDT by McGruff (Georgia = friend. Russia = enemy.)
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To: TLI
With four(!) Carrier Strike Groups, one Expeditionary Strike Group and an absolute laundry list of additional guided missile cruisers and destroyers, nuke subs and support vessels headed into the Persian Gulf I suspect Iran is pretty much under control, with or without the Russians.

And just what do you think the U.S. is going to do with all those military assets. So far just talk with the Iranians smirking at us. I don't think we will take any action against Iran and they will pretty much continue doing what they please vis a vis nuclear weapons.

126 posted on 08/11/2008 9:10:34 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: autumnraine

“We need Russia’s co-operation over Iran and derailing that over a localised conflict in Georgia makes no sense. “

Boy, this NSC official holds out much more hope in this situation than I can muster.

Cooperation over Iran sounds like a misplaced hope. Why should the country that has supplied Iran with the wherewithal to nuclearize suddenly turn against their best interests. Russia needs Iran in their camp to maintain a real foothold in the ME and proximity to those energy deposits. If they can gain a clear pathway to Iran and as a result gain control over the export of much of the Caspian energy deposits it will be a double win.

The next necessary step is for Russia to respond positively to Georgia’s ceasefire declaration.”

I’m afraid that’s more necessary from out point of view than Russia’s. Georgia has repeatedly asked for a ceasefire and the Kremlin won’t take their calls. Right now a ceasefire will be accepted on Russia’s terms and timetable and at this point it doesn’t appear they’ve accomplished all their objectives.


127 posted on 08/11/2008 9:10:52 AM PDT by bereanway
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To: TheBattman

It’s FAR more likely that this was the last straw for Putin...

“Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan launch project to revive “Silk Road” on rails”

Leaders of Turkey, Georgia and Azerbaijan launched Thursday a railway project between the three countries, with laying the foundation of the railway’s 76-kilometres part. Turkish president called the project is open to “all other regional countries”, implying Armenia.

At a railway station in the eastern Turkish border town of Kars, Turkish President Abdullah Gul, Georgia’s Mikheil Saakashvili and Azerbaijan’s Ilham Aliyev held a ground breaking ceremony for the $290 million Turkish section of the railway.

The three countries are already linked by the BP-led Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline and the Baku-Tbilisi-Erzurum gas line but trade links between Turkey and the Caucasus region are limited.

A tender last September for construction of the 76-km (47-mile) Turkish stretch of the railway was won by the Ozgun Yapi-Celikler joint venture with a bid of $289.8 million, the lowest of 14 bids.

The railroad is expected to become operational in 2011 and carry one million passangers and 6.5 million tones of cargo annually, forming a key transport connection between Asia and Europe, officials said Thursday.

It is seen very important since it will enable the Central Asian republics, world’s new oil and natural gas centers with an uninterrupted railway link.


128 posted on 08/11/2008 9:11:14 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Beware Of False Prophets/ME-ssiahs Selling Hopium....)
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To: Jeff Head
I hope this open the eyes of the fence sitters ( Independents, Moderates ) who were going to vote for Obama and change their minds and vote for McCain.
129 posted on 08/11/2008 9:11:16 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM .53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no GOD.)
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To: Jeff Head
This is a case where asymmetrical warfare is the best option. Weapons that have been used against us in Iraq and Afghanistan will work against the Russians in Georgia as well.
130 posted on 08/11/2008 9:11:44 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: DoughtyOne
I agree. I have been very firm about us taking a hard stand.

I think we can do so, particularly when we send those aircraft full of Georgian troops into Georgia. We warn the Russians, very directly that those aicraft are coming in with full escort and that the Russians better just stand back out of the way...and we say it forcefully and openly.

There should be a full and heavy escort of Raptors with them, and with supporting tankers and AWACS. That air armada should also include aircraft capable of ground support and wild weasel missions so if the Russians do try and attack the transports and give us the excuse, then we return on their heads what they are doing to the Gerogians and blunt their offensive.

The reason we would take such a risk is preciesly because of the ramifications you state.

131 posted on 08/11/2008 9:12:00 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: DevSix

Well then why did he say it? Why bother saying “The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you.”?

So knowing that this little nation isn’t worth us going to war over, he said it anyway? That sounds like a lie to me.


132 posted on 08/11/2008 9:12:31 AM PDT by autumnraine
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To: Jeff Head

Area around Gori earlier.

133 posted on 08/11/2008 9:14:14 AM PDT by maquiladora
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To: Jeff Head

We have been sending the wrong signals to our enemies for years.

We cozy up to them economically. We signal we’re going to cut our forces. We signal that we aren’t going to interfere as they make demands.

And then they act on our stupidity. Well, here we are.

All those who have been defending our acts of stupidity should be happy as can be at this eventuality.


134 posted on 08/11/2008 9:15:13 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: autumnraine

“So knowing that this little nation isn’t worth us going to war over, he said it anyway? That sounds like a lie to me.”

Not sure we can help their leadership being idiots.


135 posted on 08/11/2008 9:15:16 AM PDT by DonaldC
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To: DonaldC

Thanks.


136 posted on 08/11/2008 9:15:52 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: DoughtyOne

“We cozy up to them economically.”

Especially this!


137 posted on 08/11/2008 9:16:34 AM PDT by DonaldC
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To: eastforker
These are all part of NATO, much different scenario,

And the Russians are already threatening The Baltic States and Poland, saying 'They will pay' for their support for Georgia. The time to stop aggression is at its first attack. If France and Germany had stopped Germany at any of its early military aggression, the German General Staff had plans to kick Hitler out. They couldn't believe how weak the West was over the Sudetenland, Austria, Checoslovakia. By that time Hitler had them convinced that the West would never resist. Doesn't anybody even here on Free Republic know any history?

138 posted on 08/11/2008 9:17:32 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Obama "King of Kings and Lord of Lords")
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To: Jeff Head

We’ve got the munitions that will take out whole rows of those tanks with a single shot. Poopin needs to see what he is up against. If he thinks he’s king of the block any longer, he’s in for a big surprise.


139 posted on 08/11/2008 9:18:26 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Mr Rogers
It does seem that, at a minimum, GWB could cut short his China vacation. Maybe if he gave up women volleyball players for the Oval Office, our government wouldn’t be flailing for direction.

I agree. It doesn't help that most of congress is vacationing (thanks Nancy...)

140 posted on 08/11/2008 9:18:51 AM PDT by Liberty1970
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To: DoughtyOne

Unfortunately, Georgia isn’t the place for that...

I think it’s gonna get MIGHTY COLD in Europe this winter.


141 posted on 08/11/2008 9:20:31 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Beware Of False Prophets/ME-ssiahs Selling Hopium....)
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To: autumnraine
Given the way this situation is proceeding it looks like a huge defeat for Georgia, freedom and Pres. Bush. I hope there's a better outcome but right now I don't see one short of direct U.S. intervention. And in the next 10 mins. or it may be to late.
142 posted on 08/11/2008 9:20:57 AM PDT by McGruff (Georgia = friend. Russia = enemy.)
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To: maquiladora

well if the Georgian military parks its behind in the middle of Tlbisi square . . . are the Russians going to shell the capital . . .

at this point, i’m not ready to form an opinion as to the Russians intentions . . . you may be right, but i think they want to install a pupet govt in there


143 posted on 08/11/2008 9:21:36 AM PDT by jhpigott
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To: DoughtyOne
He is only in for a big surprise if we actually surprise him.

IMHO. we need to force his hand. Send in the Georgian Iraq troops on our transports...escort those transports with Raptors...and then turn it into a 24X7 air lift, with US a growing US CAP, and dare the Putin to do anything about it as the Georgian troops, with our material, begin to decimate his armor formations.

144 posted on 08/11/2008 9:21:54 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Michael Barnes
Ok,, a bit over acting, but ? how about the Ukraine ?
Do they still have nukes ? .. would Russia dare to take the Ukraine also ?
145 posted on 08/11/2008 9:22:16 AM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM .53 : 1 The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no GOD.)
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To: tcrlaf

Well, I was dead set against Europe setting itself up like this, but they considered themselves smarter than everyone else. We’ll see how it plays out. You very well could be right. All the more reason to kick Poopin’s ass all the way back to the Russian border.


146 posted on 08/11/2008 9:23:17 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Jeff Head

For once, I agree with you.


147 posted on 08/11/2008 9:23:21 AM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He Who Watches Over Israel Will Neither Slumber Nor Sleep")
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To: Jeff Head

These are quickly becoming “Interesting times”.

It’s dangerous for the US to act...but perhaps vastly more dangerous not to act.

I suggest sending an unmistakable signal...and killing 2 birds with one stone.

A massive attack on all Iranian underground nuclear research sites using nuclear bunker busters. There would be no significant radioactive contamination and the whole world would quake as the news broke. Follow up with the greatest shock and awe conventional attack of all time on Iranian infrastructure...have no mercy, leave them in the dark ages. Take control of their oil fields to ensure their safety. Rebuild Iran on their own dime...this time actually use their oil revenue to rebuild...not US taxpayers money. Unleash Israel, tell them it is time to clean out all the trash.

Raise the Defcon level just prior to the attack on Iran...the Russians would know immediately...the sweat would pour in Moscow.

Supply Georgia with an enormous supply of anti-aircraft munitions, cluster weapons, millions of mines of all types and real-time surveillance of all Russian forces. It would be nice if there were some F22 trained Georgian pilots. Tell the Nato countries to admit Ukrain and Georgia (minus the 2 breakaway areas) immediately or the US will withdraw from the alliance and leave them to their own fates.

We would not be in this mess if we had not made an ass of ourselves over Kosovo :-( The legacy of the Clintons lives on..and was made worse by Bush’s recognition of Kosovo. And if not for Carter, Iran would be a US ally instead of what it is now.

We are in a position now where inaction will cause every despot on the planet to lose fear of US power...and a world without US power would be a frightening place to live.

Taking action will cause great economic hardship...but there are things far worse than being hit in the pocketbook.

We need a Churchill in times like these....I like to read Churchill in bad times.

Winston Churchill quotes.

“One ought never to turn one’s back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from anything. Never! “

“Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities... because it is the quality which guarantees all others. “

“I never worry about action, but only about inaction. “

“If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. “

“If you have an important point to make, don’t try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time-a tremendous whack. “

“In war as in life, it is often necessary when some cherished scheme has failed, to take up the best alternative open, and if so, it is folly not to work for it with all your might. “

“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary. “

“Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result. “

“Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. “

“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. “

“Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon. “

“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. “

“The first quality that is needed is audacity. “

“The power of an air force is terrific when there is nothing to oppose it. “

“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they’ve tried everything else. “

And here is a good quote to go along with my overly long post.

“The length of this document defends it well against the risk of its being read. “


148 posted on 08/11/2008 9:23:35 AM PDT by Bobalu (If you don't want people pointing out your flaws, maybe you should work on not having any)
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To: commonguymd
And to think we, and our press gave any credence to what Russia said about our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. They haven’t changed one bit, and intend to rebuild their empire.

No one in his right mind turns their back on the Russian bear. While he should play the bear along and give him his due, one should never believe the bear shares the same values of Western liberalism that we breathe like air. When Bush first met Putin and said he had looked into Putin's eyes and said, "I was able to get a sense of his soul, a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country," I knew he was a half-wit.

149 posted on 08/11/2008 9:23:40 AM PDT by E. Cartman (Would you want your surgeon graduating at the bottom 1% of his class?)
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To: Brian S. Fitzgerald
"..."Russian peacekeepers and support units are carrying out an operation aimed at... preventing Georgian forces from regrouping to carry new attacks on South Ossetia," a ministry spokesman said.

When did they start calling Russia's military "peacekeepers"?

Thanks for the report/article

150 posted on 08/11/2008 9:24:12 AM PDT by Mo1
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