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Russia seizes Georgia base, opens second front
AP ^ | Aug 11, 2008 | MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI

Posted on 08/11/2008 8:16:28 AM PDT by Jeff Head

TBILISI, Georgia — Russia opened a second front of fighting in Georgia on Monday, sending armored vehicles beyond two breakaway provinces and seizing a military base and police stations in the country's west, the Georgian government and a Russian official said.

GEORGIAN FORCES

RUSSIAN FORCES


(Excerpt) Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: caucasus; energy; geopolitics; georgia; georgianconflict; russia; russianinvasion; southossetia; war
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To: DoughtyOne

“IMO, this is payback as much as anything else.”

Yes. And the same thing was said of President Bush.
And both are likely true.


“I do agree with there being ulterior motives. There are certainly bonuses included.”

Yes. There are. IIRC Gazprom competed for the pipeline but lost. So now, the politicians used the power of the military to take control of a large energy resource.

GazProm wins. Politicians and Admin make more money. Pipeline can’t be used as tool against the nation.

In Russia, the oil merchants are the politicians.


201 posted on 08/11/2008 9:56:14 AM PDT by UCANSEE2
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To: LibertyRocks

I thought GWB looked into Putin’s eyes and saw his soul, and said everything was fine.


202 posted on 08/11/2008 9:56:27 AM PDT by Sig Sauer P220
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To: Jeff Head

I think it would be sad, if the US didn’t provide some military support. Georgia, in her willingness to send troops into Iraq, became the third largest coalition force. It would be unfortunate, if the US didn’t return the favor, especially since their homeland is being invaded.


203 posted on 08/11/2008 9:57:02 AM PDT by ponder life
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To: nicola_tesla
Just as an FYI, here is a Yahoo link

Yahoo News Link

204 posted on 08/11/2008 9:57:17 AM PDT by Post-Neolithic (Money only makes Communists rich Communists)
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To: Jeff Head

I agree. And that’s where the President’s ability to communicate is vitally important.

He needs to express a love for the Georgian people, as well as the Russian people. He needs to explain that he wouldn’t stand by and watch either of them be killed by neighbor states, and that Georgian territory is sovereign territory.

If Georgia were to invade Russian territory, the U.S. would oppose it. If Russia invades Georgian territory, the U.S. opposes it, and will put an end to it.

There is not reason for or intent of the U.S. to desire entering Russian territory, and it will not do so. But it will put an end to Russian treachery in Georgia.


205 posted on 08/11/2008 9:57:51 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Jeff Head

By God I know who I want in charge of those two.

Obama is a pop-culture guy without backbone who thinks the global stage is like having a conversation with a hippy in the aisles of a Whole Foods.

Things like Russia’s invasion just make Obama seem even more bizarre as a candidate choice.


206 posted on 08/11/2008 9:58:06 AM PDT by modest proposal (Congress (n). Place where you can be supported in comfort by the state to talk stupid)
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To: Jeff Head; DoughtyOne
My suggestion from last night:

To Save Europe, President Bush Must Go to Tblisi
Sunday, August 10, 2008 | Kristinn

Russia's move into Georgia must be stopped--and stopped now. The cause of freedom in Europe, and indeed the world depends on it. For if they are not stopped here, Russia will act to place other former Soviet republics and captive nations once again under its domination.

Those now free nations are looking to America as their protector. They know that if Georgia is allowed to be absorbed by Russia, that it will only be a matter of time before a feckless Western Europe will once again stand by and do nothing as they too are swallowed up by an emboldened Russia.

There is much talk that there is not much America can do in this situation. Others say that America does not have a dog in this fight. Both points of view are wrong.

The dog we have in this fight is our own freedom and independence. Russia has been building an anti-American axis with leftist governments like Venezuala and the radical Islamic government of Iran to undercut America's dominance in world affairs.

Russia has also made clear that it will use its control of oil and gas supplies and pipelines to dictate behavior in Europe.

This move by Russia into Georgia not only immediately threatens the freedom of the Georgian people, it also threatens the one major cross-continental European pipeline that is not under Russian control.

It is true that America would ignite a world war were it to precipitously engage Russia militarily in Georgia. It is also true that diplomatic efforts in the United Nations and by the European Union will not accomplish anything to save Georgia.

The typical diplomatic response will not suffice. What is needed is a bold, game-changing step that no one expects.

That step is for President Bush to fly to Tblisi on Air Force One from Beijing and invite Putin to meet with him and Georgian President Saakashvili in Tblisi this week.

With this effort, President Bush will send a clear signal to the former Soviet republics and captive nations that America will stand with them against Russian aggression.

It will also send a strong message to Russia that their old ways of doing business are over.

Would Russia dare attack the President while he is on a peace mission? I think not. I think they would be forced to stop fighting and come to the negotiating table.

The negotiations would be ugly. Georgia would have to give something to placate the Russians so they would not lash out in humiliation. But the paramount goal of preserving Georgia's independence would be obtained.

This could be accomplished without America firing a shot. But it would only work with the Russians knowing a war with America would result if they harmed the President on his peace mission.

207 posted on 08/11/2008 9:58:13 AM PDT by kristinn
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To: Bobalu

You saved the best for last.


208 posted on 08/11/2008 9:58:18 AM PDT by UCANSEE2
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To: pgkdan
The good news is that McCain never bought his BS for a minute...I feel better about a McCain Presidency already.

In a political sense, these developments are disasterous for the Democrats. Shades of the cold war.

But I wish I had faith enough in the GOP to act as if they had a backbone. I have the feeling, as others have said here, that shrinking from this aggression may well have apocalyptic repercussions.

209 posted on 08/11/2008 9:59:15 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: elfman2

Georgia is a test run to see whether the U.S. will put up any meaningful resistance when they invade the Ukraine and Poland. It is also a way to show the former eastern block countries that U.S. support is only rhetorical. We will have a hard time finding allies in this world if we let Russia destroy Georgia.


210 posted on 08/11/2008 10:00:09 AM PDT by Texas Federalist
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To: kenth

I think you are right. This is much bigger than Georgia. This is about Russia and America.


211 posted on 08/11/2008 10:00:51 AM PDT by autumnraine
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To: Jeff Head; NFHale; Gilbo_3

Snipers up and out !

All hard targets have soft pink centers !

As well every Georgian serviceman that helped us in Iraq should be given a stinger missile as a going away gift when we airlift em home.


212 posted on 08/11/2008 10:01:18 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Texas Federalist
Georgia is a test run to see whether the U.S. will put up any meaningful resistance when they invade the Ukraine and Poland.

Ukraine yes. Poland no. In order to invade Poland they would have to transit through Belarus. I suspect that Belarus will fall to the new Soviet Union without a shot though.

213 posted on 08/11/2008 10:02:15 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (A citizen using a weapon to shoot a criminal is the ultimate act of independence from government.)
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To: skeeter

>>these developments are disasterous for the Democrats

Yes, because to delve into the past, Clinton would never have won if the Soviet Union had still existed. By that time, the Dems had virtually no credibility in foreign affairs. Yes, and Perot helped Clinton to achieve that magical 43% number.

Now, as events focus America’s attention on the world, the picture of Obama sitting across the table from Putin or even Medvedev sparks a sly smile, underscoring the rather absurd image of a man out of his depth confronting a hardened experienced leader of Russia.

Judo vs Jive. I don’t think America goes for jive.


214 posted on 08/11/2008 10:02:47 AM PDT by swarthyguy (Osama Freedom Day: 2500 or so since September 11 2001! That's SIX +years, Dubya.)
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To: Jeff Head
Because the anti-war American left is just that...anti-American and much more closely aligned with our enemies than with our own traditional national interests or underlying priniciples. It’s as straight forward as that.

You are exactly correct. Nancy, et. al., is enjoying her vacation knowing that she's done her part to bring the US one step closer to being under control of the old Soviet empire.

215 posted on 08/11/2008 10:04:40 AM PDT by meyer (...by any means necessary.)
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To: kristinn

I appreciate what you would be trying to accomplish by this move, but I don’t believe you expose your CIC to an active war zone in order to achieve it.

We need our leadership intact, to execute war policy.

I believe Jeff Head’s approach would be a better plan.


216 posted on 08/11/2008 10:05:09 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

“This is the Democrats fault. We need Russian oil. If We had our own oil drilling in ANWR and off the coasts, we wouldn’t need to bow to Russian pressure.”

It seems that at every corner, the democrats hands drip with blood.


217 posted on 08/11/2008 10:05:31 AM PDT by Gator113 (Drill here, drill now...... or die.)
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To: swarthyguy
I don’t think America goes for jive.

I would hope not. We shall see...

218 posted on 08/11/2008 10:05:31 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: Texas Federalist

Georgia is one thing. Ukraine and Poland are another. Like comparing the invasion of Connecticut to the invasion of California and Oregon.


219 posted on 08/11/2008 10:06:20 AM PDT by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: LibertyRocks; eleni121
I blasted the Russian govt in another thread, last Thursday... Elenil took the liberty of twisting my post and saying the following "Logic is my friend but your weakness is a misplaced and illogical hate for the Russian people.


220 posted on 08/11/2008 10:06:52 AM PDT by NYC Republican (Infuriate the MSM- Vote for McCain)
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To: Jeff Head
I'm afraid you're right. Putin and Medveded making threats against Poland and the Baltic States today should help to clear everyone's heads about Russia's real ambitions.

If we let this stand and do nothing to help a staunch ally like Georgia then Russia will feel free to exert it's power anywhere it chooses. What do we do when a Nato ally is attacked? They've been leading us around by our noses in Iran for years and now this. How much is Bush willing to take?

221 posted on 08/11/2008 10:07:03 AM PDT by pgkdan (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions - G.K. Chesterton)
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To: DonaldC; DoughtyOne
“This is the reason why we should never have adopted the one theater level of military preparedness.”

"True that!"

Yep. But it all boils down to the same thing. What will the US do to respond?

222 posted on 08/11/2008 10:07:17 AM PDT by UCANSEE2
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To: thesearethetimes...

If Bush had any stones, he’d have added something to the ‘I looked into Putin’s eyes and saw’ statement:

“But I looked into Putin’s heart and saw nothing but a soul-less KGB communist.” Once a commie, always a commie!


223 posted on 08/11/2008 10:07:19 AM PDT by RasterMaster (Rudy McRomneyson = KENNEDY wing of the Republican Party)
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To: kristinn
It will also send a strong message to Russia that their old ways of doing business are over.
Would Russia dare attack the President while he is on a peace mission? I think not. I think they would be forced to stop fighting and come to the negotiating table.
The negotiations would be ugly. Georgia would have to give something to placate the Russians so they would not lash out in humiliation. But the paramount goal of preserving Georgia's independence would be obtained.
This could be accomplished without America firing a shot. But it would only work with the Russians knowing a war with America would result if they harmed the President on his peace mission.

I don't trust Russia

224 posted on 08/11/2008 10:07:54 AM PDT by Mo1
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To: autumnraine
You don't go to war overnight - Understand that - You certainly don't start a world war in such a manner -Furthermore it is Georgia that willingly choose to create this current situation - There can be consequences -

Especially with where Russia standing currently is - Economics and logistics involved as well - That Georgia did this action on their own....with no heads-up given....Is reason for us to pause -

There are ways to support Georgia (and we are) outside of getting in a shooting war......that should be the last resort.

Your "that sounds like a lie to me"....is intellectually childish....This is the big leagues here....Not a game.

225 posted on 08/11/2008 10:08:19 AM PDT by SevenMinusOne
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To: pgkdan
I agree. McCain called this one correctly. He looked into Putin's eyes and saw evil.

That said, I'm sure GWB and our intelligence saw something happening, may even be somewhat in on the deal, we'll give you Georgia for Iran. I don't know but Georgia was either very stupid or somehow provoked by Russia or false intelligence to make a dumb move.

Why would Russia move now when we're wrapping up Iraq and not a couple of years ago when we were knee deep in it. They aren't that dumb either. There's a wink and nod in here somewhere.

Here's my Pelican brief take: Remember the attempted assassination of GWB while in Georgia? Coulda been an effort by Georgia leader to blame attack on S. Ossentia separatists to provoke US defense of its actions to take S. Ossentia. Our intelligence found out it was really Georgia that was behind the thrown grenade and GWB is letting Vlad take care of the revenge with a nod toward letting Israel take out Iran. We possibly could've fed Georgia some intelligence to make them move. This move now by Georgia and Russia's readiness to attack just doesn't add up. I think the other Baltic states in NATO are safe.

226 posted on 08/11/2008 10:08:47 AM PDT by pangaea6
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To: kristinn; DoughtyOne
Great proposaa Kristinn...but it may be too late for it.

The Rusisians are moving through Gori as we speak. The final defense of Tiblisi has to be in order.

If Bush could get in their quickly enough...he might could pull it off. Otherise, we already have transport aircraft flying Georgian troops in there and we need to protect them and can perhaps fall back on a plan like that mentioned above in post 173.

Either way, something direct and something audacious and bold in the face of this Russian agreewssion is called for and must be forthcoming...but also something measured and communicative enough to keep as much a lid on this and confined to Georgia...and then those provinces as possible.

227 posted on 08/11/2008 10:10:11 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: DoughtyOne

The trip would be announced before hand with a “request” for a cessation of hostilities for the duration of the visit. Putin must be forced to make a hard choice.


228 posted on 08/11/2008 10:10:16 AM PDT by kristinn
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To: kristinn

Well said, Kristinn.


229 posted on 08/11/2008 10:11:51 AM PDT by American Quilter (The urge to save humanity is nearly always a cover for the urge to rule. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
"My guess is that Georgia is pretty much finished."

Can you say "Sudetenland?"

230 posted on 08/11/2008 10:12:58 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Bernanke is a Monetary Slut!)
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To: Jeff Head

Yes, time is a-wasting. My hope is that the President is on his way to Tblisi now. Short of war, this is the only way to stop Russia in its tracks.


231 posted on 08/11/2008 10:13:03 AM PDT by kristinn
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To: All
In defense of honey against the bees



232 posted on 08/11/2008 10:13:44 AM PDT by lizol
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To: Prophet in the wilderness

Liberals only care about people when it makes them look like altruistic lovers of mankind, or if it is a chance to say something Anti-American. Because being anti-establishment is “cool” and most never grow up.


233 posted on 08/11/2008 10:16:34 AM PDT by autumnraine
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To: Jeff Head

I didn’t realize Gori was that close to T’bilisi. If the U.S. doesn’t have a plan in the works by now, Georgia has fallen.


234 posted on 08/11/2008 10:16:46 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Camel Joe
Such stupidity in these times! Russia is helping Iran not us. This will isolate Turkey from NATO forces in the South as Syria and Iran seize control of Lebanon.

This is the kind of blather that comes from the CIA and Foggy Bottom these days. Makes you wonder whose side they're on.

235 posted on 08/11/2008 10:17:37 AM PDT by pgkdan (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions - G.K. Chesterton)
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To: DoughtyOne

Well, why did we bother trying to end the cold war if we are just going to sit back and let them reassemble the Soviet Union?

So I agree with you wholeheartedly!


236 posted on 08/11/2008 10:18:27 AM PDT by autumnraine
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To: Jeff Head

I agree we need to keep the Russians from taking Tblisi. This is going to turn out ugly no matter what we do. Putin has already decided that.


237 posted on 08/11/2008 10:19:15 AM PDT by kristinn
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To: DoughtyOne
This is what Sky news is reporting

Russia Denies Capturing Gori

238 posted on 08/11/2008 10:19:57 AM PDT by Mo1
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To: McGruff
You people ready to declare "defeat" for freedom (or Bush) every time situations don't go exactly to plan....or aren't all wrapped up with rainbows and butterfly's in 10 minutes.....are to weak-kneed to deal with -

Reality is this is a complex situation (made more complex by Georgia bringing it about).....but this is in no way a defeat for freedom / nor GWB.....

239 posted on 08/11/2008 10:20:35 AM PDT by SevenMinusOne
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To: Mo1

I don’t trust the Russians either. But they are sane, unlike the jihadists.


240 posted on 08/11/2008 10:22:30 AM PDT by kristinn
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To: autumnraine

“So knowing that this little nation isn’t worth us going to war over, he said it anyway? That sounds like a lie to me.”

Maybe. I think we are already at war. Both nations have an active military war going on at this moment, each involving military invading our ‘friends’.

Us, in Iraq, and threatening Iran.

Russia, in Georgia.


241 posted on 08/11/2008 10:23:18 AM PDT by UCANSEE2
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To: kristinn; Jeff Head

I’m not convinced a Bush visit would be helpful. It would allow the Russians to walk right up to the T’blisi front door.

As soon as Bush left, T’blisi falls.

The military option is the only thing that stops T’blisi from falling now, and that doesn’t seem to be in the works either.

I’m not anxious to see U.S. troops on the ground, but we could thin the Russian herd to a man if we decided to from the air.


242 posted on 08/11/2008 10:23:41 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: autumnraine

Thank you. I agree.


243 posted on 08/11/2008 10:24:20 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Mo1

"There are no Russian troops in Gori," said a Russian defence ministry spokesman.

244 posted on 08/11/2008 10:24:41 AM PDT by RasterMaster (Rudy McRomneyson = KENNEDY wing of the Republican Party)
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To: Mo1
"There are no Russian troops in Gori," said a Russian defence ministry spokesman.

One guess who that sounds like. Nah. That's too easy.

245 posted on 08/11/2008 10:25:09 AM PDT by McGruff (Georgia = friend. Russia = enemy.)
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To: lizol

The balloon has gone up! If Russia is allowed to start swallowing our allies, it won’t be long before we are faced with the choice of surrender or Global Thermonuclear War!

I have been extremely reluctant to support McCain (because he hates us), but he shows a reassuring willingness to kill Russians!

DEATH TO PUTIN!


246 posted on 08/11/2008 10:25:20 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (DEATH TO PUTIN!)
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To: kristinn

If they were sane ... they wouldn’t be doing this
Though I agree they aren’t as nutty as the jihadists


247 posted on 08/11/2008 10:25:41 AM PDT by Mo1
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To: DevSix

bump to your reasoned thinking.


248 posted on 08/11/2008 10:26:55 AM PDT by TigersEye (Berlin '36 ... Olympics for murdering regimes. ... Beijing '08)
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To: Mo1

Well, if that is true, good. I will say that Russia says lots of things that turn out to be totally bogus. From reports, I suspect some Russian troops are already on their way from Gori to T’blisi. I would love to be wrong about this.

What Russia has done, is so over the top that I don’t trust them one bit. They clearly intend to take over Georgia and replace it’s leadership. Georgia is a sovereign state and it’s citizens are the only ones who decide who leads them.

I’m sure you agree with a lot of this, so please don’t think I’m railing on you for some reason. I’m not.


249 posted on 08/11/2008 10:28:07 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Jeff Head

The only other alternative without going head to head with Russia would be to establich a flying armada over the pipeline to protect it from destruction, then again, if one of them was to get shot down??????????????? I think we definately need the Turks involved if possible.


250 posted on 08/11/2008 10:28:20 AM PDT by eastforker (Get-R-Done and then Bring-Em- Home)
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