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Russia seizes Georgia base, opens second front
AP ^ | Aug 11, 2008 | MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI

Posted on 08/11/2008 8:16:28 AM PDT by Jeff Head

TBILISI, Georgia — Russia opened a second front of fighting in Georgia on Monday, sending armored vehicles beyond two breakaway provinces and seizing a military base and police stations in the country's west, the Georgian government and a Russian official said.

GEORGIAN FORCES

RUSSIAN FORCES


(Excerpt) Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: caucasus; energy; geopolitics; georgia; georgianconflict; russia; russianinvasion; southossetia; war
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To: commonguymd

“The remarks about paying a price for verbal support to countries like Poland has me curious to the long term goals of Russia. Is this the beginning of a reformulation of the USSR?”

The bear is back.


401 posted on 08/11/2008 12:47:48 PM PDT by DemonDeac
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To: TheBattman

We aren’t going to directly engage them and risk a large scale military confrontation with Russia. It would be crazy to enter into conflict with them particularly with so many of our forces occupied.


402 posted on 08/11/2008 12:49:12 PM PDT by DemonDeac
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To: Jeff Head

“Russian widens the war and enters Georgia proper. Also flanking in from the coast where they have made amphibious landings.”

Looks like the Russians are planning to stay awhile.


403 posted on 08/11/2008 12:52:40 PM PDT by headstamp 2 (Been here before)
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To: autumnraine

H told them they would pay for criticizing Russia. The latest has the Presidents of all four countries on their way to Georgia as a show of support and solidarity.


404 posted on 08/11/2008 12:58:33 PM PDT by pgkdan (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions - G.K. Chesterton)
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To: pgkdan
H told them they would pay for criticizing Russia. The latest has the Presidents of all four countries on their way to Georgia as a show of support and solidarity.

So basically the FSU nations just told the new SU to FU.

405 posted on 08/11/2008 1:00:02 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (A citizen using a weapon to shoot a criminal is the ultimate act of independence from government.)
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To: Jack Black
Georgia Attacks and Kills South Ossetians with Tanks

the headline nobody ran

406 posted on 08/11/2008 1:02:26 PM PDT by mikhailovich
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To: elfman2

So you are proposing a millitary attack on Russia in response to this? Seriously?


407 posted on 08/11/2008 1:02:54 PM PDT by ChinaThreat (s)
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To: VaBthang4

So you are advocating a direct military conflict with Russia? Seriously? I don’t remember any direct treaty with the Georgians? Do you know of any?

You seriously are ready to risk a nuclear exchange over this? You may be. But with all due respect, you are insane. There are other more prudent ways of dealing with this problem.


408 posted on 08/11/2008 1:04:39 PM PDT by ChinaThreat (s)
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To: Little Ray

The reactions by Eastern Europe, the Balitcs, the other former republics (most importantly Ukraine) and the western investments in the Russian Federation will all be used as leverage against the Russians. This is going to backfire in their face. Their stock market has already dropped 6% and western firms will begin leaving (they already have in the last year) due to Russia’s reminiscence of its Soviet days.

Many on this board are foolishly calling for direct military intervention. That, with all due respect, is beyond retarded.

Lets say Puerto Rico gained its independence from the USA, and one section of it occupied by American citizens, was attacked by the new government, we would respond. I’m not saying that Russia is right in this, but you have to understand the dynamics of the situation. Regardless if it is right on their part or not, we have to make decisions based on the national security of the USA, not Georgia.


409 posted on 08/11/2008 1:10:55 PM PDT by ChinaThreat (s)
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To: Jeff Head
“irrefutable scientific facts”? The West will take no action that will attempt to harm Russia. It has nothing to do with science. “There are more things in heaven and earth, ... than are dreamt of in your philosophy (science)”. Including the certainty that craven and cowardly and cynical leaders will act as craven and cowardly and cynical leaders.
410 posted on 08/11/2008 1:15:25 PM PDT by isrul (Help make every day, "Disrespect a muzzie day.")
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To: All

Are there any counts in regard to Russian military losses and Georgian losses? I have heard the 2,000 figure but have no idea if that is a civilian count. Also heard 12 Russians KIA ( seems very low ).
I’m praying the Georgians fight like hell even though the outcome appears to be inevitable.

I’m at work and do not have time to look through the entire thread right now so please excuse me if this was answered earlier.


411 posted on 08/11/2008 1:19:25 PM PDT by warsaw44
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To: isrul
Russian Colonel-General Nogovitsyn repeated an earlier charge that Georgian troops were engaged in genocide against civilians in South Ossetia, which he said he could "prove to the media."

"During their mop-up operations in South Ossetia, Georgian commandos have thrown hand grenades into the basements where civilians were hiding," he said. "That's what we call genocide."

South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, lay in smoldering ruins after four days of fighting. Each side accused the other of killing large numbers of civilians. Russia said at least 2,000 people had been killed in Tskhinvali.

Georgia began withdrawing its forces from Tskhinvali early Sunday.

Georgia, a pro-Western ally of the U.S., is intent on asserting its authority over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, both of which have strong Russian-backed separatist movements.

The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.

South Ossetia, which has a population of about 70,000, is inside Georgia but has an autonomous government. Many South Ossetians support unification with North Ossetia, which would make them part of Russia.

Russia supports the South Ossetian government, has given passports to many in South Ossetia, and calls them Russian citizens.

------------------------

Bad move, Georgia. No more chess for you.

412 posted on 08/11/2008 1:23:19 PM PDT by mikhailovich
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To: ChinaThreat
"So you are proposing a millitary attack on Russia in response to this? Seriously?"

So you learned to read yesterday? Seriously?

Try again, and get back to me if you have something thoughtful to say.

413 posted on 08/11/2008 1:27:45 PM PDT by elfman2 (TheRightReasons.net - Reasoning CONSERVATIVES without the kooks.)
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To: Centurion2000

>There is no way in hell Turkey is going to allow a Carrier >Battle Group to transit the Bosporus Straits.

There is no way moving a carrier group into the Black Sea would be a good strategy. (Like the Russians sending a battle group into the great lakes. The Med is plenty close enough.


414 posted on 08/11/2008 1:30:07 PM PDT by Schwarzeneger
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To: autumnraine

It’s largely because Europe is powerless militarilly, at least beyond what they’ve committed to in S. Asia, the Middle East and Africa.


415 posted on 08/11/2008 1:31:33 PM PDT by elfman2 (TheRightReasons.net - Reasoning CONSERVATIVES without the kooks.)
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To: mikhailovich

The SOuth Ossetian group has been used to cause trouble before. The Russian’s didn’t seem to do anything about this back in 2004:

The Chinese are doing similar stuff.

Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, November 26, 2006; Page A01

TBILISI, Georgia — The U.S. Secret Service and Georgian police are investigating an international counterfeiting operation that stretches from a separatist enclave in this former Soviet republic to Maryland, where fake $100 bills have been seized, according to senior officials and investigators here. The allegations are supported by American diplomats, U.S. court documents and a recent report to Congress.

From a printing press in South Ossetia, a sliver of land with no formally recognized government, more than $20 million in the fake bills has been transported to Israel and the United States, according to investigators. The counterfeit $100 notes have also surfaced in Georgia and Russia, officials said.

The fake notes have been passed at numerous businesses throughout the Baltimore area and have also surfaced in New York, Newark and Buffalo, according to court papers and the joint report to Congress by the Secret Service, the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve. The report, issued in September, also said the number of counterfeit notes produced in this region and passed in the United States has “increased dramatically” in recent years.

The presence in South Ossetia of an international counterfeiting ring capable of producing thousands of bills, according to investigators, is a stark example of how organized crime has flourished, sometimes through the neglect or alleged involvement of officials, in areas of the former Soviet Union whose territorial status remains unresolved 15 years after the fall of communism.

“Counterfeiting is not the only headache for us if you’re talking about criminality in South Ossetia,” Ekaterine Zguladze, Georgia’s deputy interior minister, said in an interview. “You also have drug trafficking, weapons trafficking, robbery, kidnapping. And our opportunity to fight criminals in there is very limited.”

A spokesman for the U.S. Secret Service, in an e-mail message, declined to discuss the case “due to the sensitivities of the ongoing investigations and political considerations.” But the joint report to Congress said the Secret Service “is currently investigating a scheme with ties to suspects in Israel, Russia, and the Republic of Georgia to produce counterfeit U.S. currency. The U.S. Secret Service has reason to believe this family of counterfeit notes is being produced in the Caucasus region,” as the mountainous area encompassing parts of southern Russia and Georgia is called.

U.S. diplomats confirmed that the location was South Ossetia.

The cash from the Caucasus, as with other lines of counterfeit dollars believed to be from the same source, was given its own code by the Secret Service: c-21558, according to the joint report to Congress.

“Since the c-21558 family’s first detection in March 1999 the total counterfeit activity (passed and seized notes) has exceeded $23 million,” according to the report. In 2005, the Secret Service detected $5.3 million from the Caucasus ring, up from $1.5 million in 2003, the report said.


416 posted on 08/11/2008 1:34:27 PM PDT by Schwarzeneger
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To: elfman2

Did you not post this?

“If Russia has invaded Georgia proper, Bush should return from the Olympics now, and we should moving forces and equipment into Georgia ASAP.”

So you haven’t learned to read at all i suppose? Seriously?


417 posted on 08/11/2008 1:34:58 PM PDT by ChinaThreat (s)
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To: ChinaThreat
"So you haven’t learned to read at all i suppose? Seriously?"

If you can't differentiate between "defending Georgia with troops in Georgia" and "attacking Russia", you need more help than I have time to give.

418 posted on 08/11/2008 1:38:47 PM PDT by elfman2 (TheRightReasons.net - Reasoning CONSERVATIVES without the kooks.)
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To: autumnraine
"What kind of message is this sending to the world to have our leader smiling and happy watching a foot race while a country that sacrificed it’s own men to help us is being stomped out?"

You're right. It's would be Dubya's remake of his father's betrayal of the Kurds.

419 posted on 08/11/2008 1:40:57 PM PDT by elfman2 (TheRightReasons.net - Reasoning CONSERVATIVES without the kooks.)
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To: DemonDeac

Thus one of the dangers and risks of over-extending our military... It actually weakens our ability to respond to emergencies and other major needs.


420 posted on 08/11/2008 1:43:10 PM PDT by TheBattman (Vote your conscience, or don't complain about RINOs!)
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To: ChinaThreat

I am advocating defending an ally and if that means direct conflict with a washed up has been of a regional power, armed with inferior weapons manned by poorly trained troops, then so be it.

You’re the one introducing a nuclear exchange (something neither Nation would consider).


421 posted on 08/11/2008 1:44:31 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He Who Watches Over Israel Will Neither Slumber Nor Sleep")
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To: elfman2

Whatever. Defending Georgia on Georgian soil would LOGICALLY mean attacking Russians. You can play semantics all day long. Don’t bother trying to insult me though because you only make yourself look foolish..lol.


422 posted on 08/11/2008 1:46:48 PM PDT by ChinaThreat (s)
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To: isrul

Georgia Under Online Assault

By Noah Shachtman August 10, 2008 | 12:29:00 PMCategories: Crazy Ivans, Info War
The websites of Georgia’s government have been under denial-of-service attacks for weeks, with Russian hackers fingered as the culprits. Those online assaults have only intensified in recent days, as a shooting war between the two countries has broken out.

Galrahn at Information Dissimenation says that “Russia appears to have targeted the .ge domain for specific government websites, and are pounding the Georgian military networks, but other websites in Georgia in org, net, and other domains are still up, sporadically.” The Washington Post adds that “the Caucasus Network Tbilisi — key Georgian commercial Internet servers — remain under sustained attack from thousands of compromised PCs aimed at flooding the sites with so much junk Web traffic that they can no longer accommodate legitimate visitors.”


423 posted on 08/11/2008 1:52:25 PM PDT by Schwarzeneger
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To: Catholic Canadian
The saddest part of all this is that Christians can’t seem to stop fighting themselves when we face an even greater threat.

The Russian government (and specifically Putin who appears to be in control of the Russian side of this conflict) is NOT Christian.

424 posted on 08/11/2008 1:56:22 PM PDT by vrwc1
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To: Schwarzeneger

Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, November 26, 2006; Page A01

TBILISI, Georgia — The U.S. Secret Service and Georgian police are investigating an international counterfeiting operation that stretches from a separatist enclave in this former Soviet republic to Maryland, where fake $100 bills have been seized, according to senior officials and investigators here. The allegations are supported by American diplomats, U.S. court documents and a recent report to Congress.

From a printing press in South Ossetia, a sliver of land with no formally recognized government, more than $20 million in the fake bills has been transported to Israel and the United States, according to investigators. The counterfeit $100 notes have also surfaced in Georgia and Russia, officials said.

The fake notes have been passed at numerous businesses throughout the Baltimore area and have also surfaced in New York, Newark and Buffalo, according to court papers and the joint report to Congress by the Secret Service, the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve. The report, issued in September, also said the number of counterfeit notes produced in this region and passed in the United States has “increased dramatically” in recent years.

The presence in South Ossetia of an international counterfeiting ring capable of producing thousands of bills, according to investigators, is a stark example of how organized crime has flourished, sometimes through the neglect or alleged involvement of officials, in areas of the former Soviet Union whose territorial status remains unresolved 15 years after the fall of communism.

“Counterfeiting is not the o­nly headache for us if you’re talking about criminality in South Ossetia,” Ekaterine Zguladze, Georgia’s deputy interior minister, said in an interview. “You also have drug trafficking, weapons trafficking, robbery, kidnapping. And our opportunity to fight criminals in there is very limited.”

A spokesman for the U.S. Secret Service, in an e-mail message, declined to discuss the case “due to the sensitivities of the o­ngoing investigations and political considerations.” But the joint report to Congress said the Secret Service “is currently investigating a scheme with ties to suspects in Israel, Russia, and the Republic of Georgia to produce counterfeit U.S. currency. The U.S. Secret Service has reason to believe this family of counterfeit notes is being produced in the Caucasus region,” as the mountainous area encompassing parts of southern Russia and Georgia is called.

U.S. diplomats confirmed that the location was South Ossetia.

The cash from the Caucasus, as with other lines of counterfeit dollars believed to be from the same source, was given its own code by the Secret Service: c-21558, according to the joint report to Congress.

“Since the c-21558 family’s first detection in March 1999 the total counterfeit activity (passed and seized notes) has exceeded $23 million,” according to the report. In 2005, the Secret Service detected $5.3 million from the Caucasus ring, up from $1.5 million in 2003, the report said.

That compares to the approximately $2.8 million in “supernotes” linked to North Korea that the agency says it confiscates, o­n average, each year. The production of supernotes, so called for their quality, has become a major diplomatic issue between the United States and the government of Kim Jong Il.

Georgian investigators said the fake bills from South Ossetia are made with special ink and paper and have watermarks, different serial numbers and other features that allow them to be easily passed off as real. “They are of very high quality,” Konstantin Kemularia, secretary of Georgia’s National Security Council, said in an interview.

The counterfeiting operation in the region has become another irritant in U.S. relations with Russia, which acts, in effect, as a protector for South Ossetia; Russian peacekeeping troops patrol the breakaway enclave, and most of its residents have been issued Russian passports.

“We have expressed our concerns o­n this subject to both the Russians and the South Ossetians,” said a U.S. State Department official who did not have approval to speak o­n the record. “This problem is o­ne of many that underscore the urgent need for resolution of the conflict in South Ossetia and the threat it poses to security and border control, among other consequences.”

Russia’s Interior Ministry, which is responsible for fighting counterfeiting, did not respond to requests for comment. Officials in South Ossetia, where Russian rubles are used for currency, bitterly contested any allegation that a counterfeiting ring existed o­n their territory.

“Counterfeit dollars? Well, if you are going to listen to Georgians, soon you will say that we have a nuclear bomb here,” Mikhail Mindzayev, interior minister in the separatist government, said in a telephone interview. Mindzayev asserted that “we do not have any counterfeit dollars here, and we do not have any criminals.”

After a short, bloody war in the early 1990s, South Ossetia broke away from Georgia and achieved de facto independence. Despite the presence of Russian troops, crime has flourished in the province, and in a report, the German Marshall Fund of the United States described South Ossetia and other breakaway enclaves in the Black Sea region as “breeding grounds for transnational organized crime.”

On Oct. 27, 2004, its fingers reached Linthicum, Md. At the Hampton Inn near Baltimore-Washington International Airport, Hazki Hen, who had just flown to the United States from Israel, met with two men, o­ne of whom was an undercover Secret Service agent. Hen expected to consummate a deal that had been negotiated over 19 tapped phone calls.

Hen agreed to exchange $230,000 in counterfeit $100 bills for $80,000 in genuine currency, according to a Secret Service affidavit filed in U.S. District Court in Baltimore. Hen also planned to accept $220,000 as a down payment o­n the delivery of another $1.5 million in fake bills. The affidavit filed in Baltimore said that “Hen also displayed samples of paper used to produce counterfeit Euros and U.S. currency. The paper contained red and blue fibers similar to the fibers contained in genuine U.S. currency.”

Just before the Secret Service moved in and arrested Hen, the three men discussed future deals involving between $25 million and $100 million in counterfeit U.S. currency, according to the affidavit.

Nine months later and more than 5,700 miles to the east, Nana Jabelashvili, a resident of Tbilisi, Georgia’s capital, was stopped by police as she crossed a Georgian police checkpoint o­n the road between Gori and Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. Police found $350,300 in counterfeit bills in Jabelashvili’s vehicle and later learned that she was a courier for a Georgian emigre who now lives in Israel, according to Levan Gurgenidze, head of the Georgian Interior Ministry’s organized crime unit. The emigre fled Georgia the day after Jabelashvili’s arrest, Gurgenidze said in an interview.

When Secret Service agents examined some of the bills seized from Jabelashvili, they found that they were linked to the same family of bills seized in the Hen case in Baltimore, according to a U.S. law enforcement source. Gurgenidze said the source of the bills was a counterfeiting operation run out of a building o­n Lenin Street in Tskhinvali.

In November 2005, federal prosecutors dropped charges against Hen, then 65, after he became seriously ill and the court agreed to allow him to return to Israel to die.

Jabelashvili was sentenced to 12 years in prison in Georgia in January of this year, officials here said.

Suspicions are growing, meanwhile, that some South Ossetian officials are not just ignoring counterfeiting but are involving themselves in it directly.

In January of this year, Eter Kachmazova, a senior bureaucrat in the South Ossetian Trade Ministry, held a series of meetings with a Georgian undercover officer posing as a Ukrainian businessman. The meetings, at a restaurant in Gori, which is about 30 minutes by car from Tskhinvali, and at the Sheraton Hotel in Tbilisi, were videotaped and recorded by the Georgians, who later broadcast excerpts o­n state television.

Kachmazova “said she could produce as many fake dollars as the buyers could handle, up to millions,” Gurgenidze said. “The Ukrainian, our guy, said he wanted $1.5 million, and she agreed for $25 o­n every $100.”

On Jan. 31, Kachmazova agreed to supply the first $100,000, taking it across checkpoints in lots of $10,000 in case she was stopped and searched. After she arrived with the second bundle of $10,000, police arrested her. Kachmazova is being held at a pretrial detention center in Gori.

“They immediately relocated the press o­n Lenin Street after she was arrested,” Gurgenidze said. “But they are still printing money in there.”


425 posted on 08/11/2008 2:06:35 PM PDT by Schwarzeneger
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To: ChinaThreat
"Defending Georgia on Georgian soil would LOGICALLY mean attacking Russians

So now you're implying that engaging Russians invading Georgia in Georgia is the same as attacking Russia.

The entire world would recognize the difference. Russia would of course sell their own version internally, probably successfully, but foreign policy is not dictated by how thoroughly an adversary can lie to itself.

I don't know you. You may otherwise be a knowledgeable guy, although very stubborn, but this is nonsense.

Also, if you loose the attitude when first addressing strangers, you won't draw insults.

426 posted on 08/11/2008 2:08:01 PM PDT by elfman2 (TheRightReasons.net - Reasoning CONSERVATIVES without the kooks.)
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To: ChinaThreat

You are absolutely correct we can’t respond.

But I see it differently. Fear of Russia’s willingness to resort to military action will allow it to intimidate bordering nations. Other countries will knuckle under, lest they suffer Georgia’s fate.
I bet the Ukraine quickly finds an excuse to let the Soviet fleet back in its port...


427 posted on 08/11/2008 2:11:22 PM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a Conservative. But I can vote for John McCain. If I have to. I guess.)
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To: Jack Black

I disagree that the Georgians started it. They tried to block a piece of their territory from breaking away. How is that “starting it”?


428 posted on 08/11/2008 2:18:22 PM PDT by autumnraine
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To: Jeff Head; Alouette; Salem; SJackson; 444Flyer; Esther Ruth; Cindy; blam; Travis McGee; ...
Daniel 7:5 (King James Version)

And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear,
and it raised up itself on one side,
and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it:
and they said thus unto it, 'Arise, devour much flesh.'
429 posted on 08/11/2008 2:26:51 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, John 11:25, 14:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 3:17-18, John 20:31, 1 John 5:13, John 6:69)
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To: FreeReign

See Post #18
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2535881/Georgia-Gori-evacuated-as-fears-of-Russian-advance-into-Georgia-grow.html

But American diplomats conceded that the US had few options and ruled out military intervention on behalf of Georgia. “We have no good options,” a US National Security Council official told The Daily Telegraph. “We need Russia’s co-operation over Iran and derailing that over a localised conflict in Georgia makes no sense. We just have to hope that diplomacy prevails. The next necessary step is for Russia to respond positively to Georgia’s ceasefire declaration.”

And your welcome.


430 posted on 08/11/2008 2:26:52 PM PDT by autumnraine
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To: autumnraine
Technology they did start it .. though imo, Putin and the Russians were waiting for it to pounce and use it as an excuse
431 posted on 08/11/2008 2:36:13 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: Anti-Hillary

ping to above


432 posted on 08/11/2008 2:36:30 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, John 11:25, 14:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 3:17-18, John 20:31, 1 John 5:13, John 6:69)
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To: death2tyrants
You BDSers are no different than the far-left.

IOW, unless we blindly follow without question, comment or criticism we're traitors?

433 posted on 08/11/2008 2:37:57 PM PDT by E. Cartman (Would you want your surgeon graduating at the bottom 1% of his class?)
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To: isrul
Just the same, unless it has already happened, or is bound to happen based on physical law, it is not a fact. It may be a very darn good projection, it may have a 99% probablity (and I think this one is not that high yet), but it is nonetheless not a fact.

That is all.

As it is, the more time that goes by, the closer it comes to being an established fact. I still hold out hope that we will act and act decisevly to try and save Georgia.

434 posted on 08/11/2008 3:00:36 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: mikhailovich
Meanwhile, Tbilisi claims the escalation of tension occurred after South Ossetians attacked a Georgian patrol with a roadside bomb and shelled Georgian positions on the de-facto border. - August 2, '08 RT

Bad move, Ivan. Radioactive vodka for you.

435 posted on 08/11/2008 3:07:47 PM PDT by TigersEye (Berlin '36 ... Olympics for murdering regimes. ... Beijing '08)
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To: Proud_USA_Republican

I also believe that he is sending a message to the Nations that are agreeing to have the abm system installed. [To Wit] The United States will not protect you. When we decide to come after you, you will be on your own.

I intentionally omitted NATO because without the United States, NATO could not whip a Troop of Girl Scouts.

This was , again, in my opinion, not a spur of the moment decision on Putin’s part. He has been planning this for months.

A lot is at stake here.


436 posted on 08/11/2008 3:11:14 PM PDT by sport
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To: pgkdan

Just catching up on the thread. Your position is the one I have; that doing nothing is potentially more dangerous in the long run than doing something that seems provocative now.

Not only is Georgia a staunch ally, they have fought and still are fighting for their survival and independence from the Soviet state. We’ve had thousands of our military men and women die in Iraq for people who at times do not show the yearning to be free.

As for Iran, we do not need Russia’s help. We’ve never needed it. What we have needed is for them to stay off Iran’s side. That brings us to the glaring truth hidden out in the open, as it were; that Russia has been fighting proxy wars with us since the Soviet Union fell. Iran is a good example of that. We pretend that they’re our allies, but those old hardliners did not magically disappear with the breakup.

Do we stand up with our ally now, or do we stand alone later? I would rather that we do it now. That doesn’t mean that we have to go in guns blazing, even though that’s what Russia needs done to them. But we need to do something, anything other than sit back and allow Georgia to be run over.


437 posted on 08/11/2008 3:18:20 PM PDT by kenth (Just think, .000001783% of the population is screwing it all up for the rest of us.)
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To: Jeff Head
The reality is that we will have to lead or no one will.

I don't mind that, never have. What I do mind is that the last time we tried to lead they did not just get out of the way, they actively stood in the way and took swings. The French led the charge on that and joined with Putin in criticizing us because both Russia and France wanted to knock us down a peg or two in search of "a multi-polar world".

That little episode is a lot different than us leading and them following.

If I were the Georgian President I would turn around to my left...grab that EU flag next to him on the podium and say "does this actually mean ANYTHING or not?".
438 posted on 08/11/2008 3:30:29 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: sport
I intentionally omitted NATO because without the United States, NATO could not whip a Troop of Girl Scouts.

I personally think that NATO without the US would wipe the floor with Russia on defense. Russia has nukes, but I think their conventional forces would be about twice as good as Saddam Hussein's forces which is not saying much. Putin has a good Wizard of Oz impersonation going but he still can't defend something the size of Russia with that army. Russian demographics are terrible also. Not sure they want to really lose a generation of men.

I would predict that NATO would blow up a whole lot of rusty crap in event of a war with Russia.

Putin is just another bully.
439 posted on 08/11/2008 3:35:24 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: Jack Black

“the Ron Paul position as he articulates it”

This is your whitewashing of Ron Paul’s insane conspiratorial rhetoric. Ron Paul runs around spouting anti-American war-for-oil conspiracy theories, saying the U.S. forces ‘will not permit any of the three regions of Iraq to govern themselves’, while claiming that Operation Iraqi Freedom was ‘strictly motivated by a desire to exert control over the oil.’

“I think there are reasonable arguments to be made that the net results of Bush’s foreign policy, including the Iraq War, are negative for the USA. “

No, removing Saddam and replacing his terrorist regime with a democratically elected pro-western ally is not negative for the U.S. Abandoning Iraq to al-Qaeda and Iran, as Ron Paul wanted to do, would have been negative for the U.S.

“threat that Saddam represented or the sweeping demographic and cultural changed engendered by the Bush policy of allowing...”

Your interpretation of the legislation is pure fiction, and it didn’t pass anyhow. We have troops deployed in over 100 nations, but notice how the anti-war crowd pretends that the only way to close the southern boarder is by withdrawing from Iraq.


440 posted on 08/11/2008 4:14:51 PM PDT by death2tyrants
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To: E. Cartman

Your strawman argument is silly.


441 posted on 08/11/2008 4:16:38 PM PDT by death2tyrants
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To: DemonDeac
There are lots of things that can be done.

1) Immediately bring Ukraine into the NATO fold....tonight.
2) Begin supplying as many weapons as the Georgians and Ukrainians want.
3) Kick Russia out of the G8
4) If we can stop their WTO membership then do it
5) Freeze their assets...I mean it..freeze every Russian asset in the West
6) Immediately plan to expand the missile defense system in Poland 20 fold or more
7) Prohibit Russian travel anywhere in the West...shut off Aeroflot or whatever they have from landing anywhere in the West

I am sure we could think of more if we were serious. But those are more than words.

Trouble is that they require a united front by each and every Western democracy and that will never happen.

If I were Ukraine I would be digging underground lairs and hiding weapons for an upcoming guerilla war.
442 posted on 08/11/2008 4:16:52 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: death2tyrants

I don’t agree with Ron Paul on many of the specific claims he made about Iraq. I do understand his overall non-interventionist philosophy and see some merit in it.

When discussing the immigration disaster I am not talking about any particular law. I am talking about the piss-poor performance by Bush, who after all the head of the executive branch, in enforcing the border and immigration laws of the USA as they exist. These laws have been flagrently violated and the FedGov under Bush has been largely AWOL on enforcement. (until the last year or two, partially due to the outcry by Conservatives over the issue the McCain bill started).

As for whether the Iraq war was a net plus or minus, you can’t just site the good parts. Yes Saddam, an evil tyrant is gone. (Lots of other evil tyrants remain, though, including the one in Iran. One friend of mine said at the time: we attacked the wrong part of the Axis.)

We also have spent $2 Trillion we don’t have, and we don’t yet know what Iraq will be like in 5 or 10 years.

Maybe it all works out like Bush hopes, and he goes down as a genius. Maybe it all turns to mud and his critics carry the day.

I claim it is too early to say, though I would agree there are many hopeful signs.

BTW: If I thought that Iraq was the reason Bush could not defend the border I would give him a partial pass. I do not. I believe he had all the power, money and laws he needed to bring the flood of illegals down to a trickle. His failure to do so is either a lack of desire or a lack of will, but not a lack of ability.


443 posted on 08/11/2008 4:26:19 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: autumnraine

When a six year old cease fire exists, guaranteed by a multilateral peace keeping force, where hostilities have ceased there exists a “state of peace.” or at least relative calm and a prolonged sessation of violence and military hostilities.

When one commences to fire artillery into that zone, lacking any recent specific act to which one is responding that is what I call “starting it”.

For instance, if the South Koreans were to decide that they were no longer happy with the partition and DMZ and started bombing and shelling North Korea tomorrow I would say they are “starting it”. They might have reasons for starting it that I find valid: such as “it should never have been partitioned, our cousins are starving under that mad-man, he is bringing dishonor to the Korean race, all Koreans must liver under democracy, or many others one could imagine.

Regardless of their reasons though, they would be “starting it” if they decided to start shelling.

And that is exactly what the Georgians did. Pretty simple really. Pretty stupid too. “Don’t start a fight you can’t finish” is an old but still useful rule to remember.


444 posted on 08/11/2008 4:35:32 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Little Ray
You are absolutely correct we can’t respond.

We can respond. If we do it as a united West and be willing to suffer the pain. We can tell Russia that as long as Georgia's recognized borders are being violated they will have NO ACCESS to any of our markets. None of them. Not Sweden, not Germany, not the US, not Turkey, not Britain, not France. That we will buy NOTHING from them, not even oil or natural gas. That we will seize all assets of the Russian government and freeze all assets of wealthy Russians in our countries. That Ukraine will immediately be enfolded into NATO and reinforced.

There are many ways we can respond that are not military and some of those will be extremely, extremely, painful to Russia and somewhat painful to us.

Unfortunately, the Europeans will never have the backbone to stand united and show Russia just how powerful a unanimous West can be even without a military response.

They will get away with it and Ukraine is next.
445 posted on 08/11/2008 4:54:59 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: Jeff Head

angela merkel was wrong.

will europe wake up?


446 posted on 08/11/2008 5:32:17 PM PDT by ken21 (people die and you never hear from them again.)
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To: Schwarzeneger
“And get as many EU weinies involved in order to up the ante to the Russians. “

They will not get involved.

“Get some Jets over Georgia, as they have requested.”

That would be war. Take off from a carrier to carry out operations in support of the Georgians and it is a combatant.

Support Georgia from bases in Europe and that base is also a part of the conflict.

This is a very delicate situation we are in. Unless Europe is involve by self determined agreement we could make it a very rough time for all.

The question is what is their mood in the guts of their governments? Are they in the NATO mood like they were with the Balkans (and Clinton), or still in the anti-Iraq action mood?

Don't forget history always repeats itself. Always. Europe would not even defend Checkozlovocia or Poland before WWII.

They do not care to have to remember that, and will do all they think they can to avoid having to live up to what followed that.

The are still in denial. We tread lightly here.

447 posted on 08/11/2008 6:09:20 PM PDT by JSteff
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To: Arkinsaw
We can respond. If we do it as a united West and be willing to suffer the pain.

While I applaud your enthusiasm, I have to wonder if you're somehow unfamiliar with our "allies". Face it, we live in a venal, self-serving world, largely devoid of principle and if there's no money to be made by standing up to Russia (Hello to always putting the "market" first), no one will do squat.

448 posted on 08/11/2008 6:46:27 PM PDT by E. Cartman (Would you want your surgeon graduating at the bottom 1% of his class?)
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To: Jeff Head

Thanks for posting these updates JH.


449 posted on 08/11/2008 6:49:48 PM PDT by dragnet2
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To: Jeff Head

Why did they choose the opening of the Olympics to start this up? (I seem to recall something about laying down weapons during the Olympics— do you think that Russia assumes that this will tie the hands of the civilized nations?)


450 posted on 08/11/2008 7:00:14 PM PDT by RobFromGa (It's the Spending, Stupid! (not the method of collection))
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