Posted on 08/12/2008 2:10:58 AM PDT by Flashlight
I am as impatient as you, but I have reason to believe that the time is getting very close for a clear and undeniable statement followed by action that will begin to reverse this, and we can only hope it does not go beyond conventional threats.
However, I will go the distance with my support for every possible option including nuclear.
At this point - well, let me start over, two nights ago, I could not sleep at all. I live within 8 miles of NORAD. I personally, perhaps in a paranoid moment, checked my ammo, my weapons, refreshed myself on each. Made sure my wife did the same.
I’m as ready for whatever happens as anyone. Except a nuke.
I’ll die in the first hit here. I’m in between five military targets here... and 20 mt weapons on any one of them spells “curtains” for us here.
That won’t stop other Americans though from pushing back, and obliterating Russia. America will survive. Russia won’t.
Further, I think it likely won’t go all the way to the hilt, and they WILL back down, perhaps not without a few shots fire, but they WILL fall back to the status quo and wait another 20 years before they try this again.
How else would they conduct tank battle with Georgia?
A lot is still up in the air. The fact is, a lot of people are jumping to conclusions - suggesting Russia is invading and retaking Georgia. I've said that isn't happening. Most here disagree. Time shall tell.
And keep in mind, the US media absolutely detests Russia, and always has. For reasons you probably know. Some of which are exaggerated.
Secondly, as you already know, Bush must stand strong against this misperceived aggression in order to thwart future Chinese plans. Among others. So a lot of what you see especially today is nothing more than posturing to gain control over future bad intentions from others.
Are you on dope? The US media loves communists. The Soviets could do no wrong. They are still in the tank for them.
They may like communism, but not Russia. They detest them. For reasons you’re too unkeen to identify apparently.
You're blowing your cover with that one, Comrade. If anything, most of the US media has a pro-Russia bias since the days of the Cold war. They never talk about Russian support for terrorists, Russian support for rogue regime, the techniques Russia uses to destabilize and overthrow democratic governments, etc.
For reasons you probably know.
Because the average Russian makes a Nazi stormtrooper look like a choir boy in comparison?
Even now, the Russian "peacekeepers" are providing firepower support to the "South Ossetian" russian citizens that are raping Gori and stealing anything of value they can find. "Russia" might as well just be a synonym for "organized theft".
Unbelievable! I have spoken with colleagues, both U.S. and U.K from my old unit. Not a single one considers that Russia had the intention of occupying Georgia. The intelligence hitting the desk of both Brown and Bush was not stating that Russia was preparing to occupy the whole of Georgia. You’re simple naivety is glaring.
There was absolutely no long term planning needed for Russia to push the forces into South Ossetia and parts of Georgia. Why is it so hard to understand that? To most Freepers the Russians Forces since the break-up of the Soviet Union are regarded as some sort of defunct and inept organistation. Since the late 1990s money has been pumped into re-organisation and downsizing into a more professional based force. The Russians, the same as the U.S. can mobilise, at short notice spearhead and regular Army units. Why is this so hard to understand? This is in the Russians back yard. It is not like Georgia is located thousands of miles from Russian territory.
The key to the Russian push and offensive was Russian airpower. Again why is it so hard to understand. The Russian Air Force re-organised in the 1990s to be more streamlined and efficient. The Russians used there standard close air support units to subdue the Georgians on the battlefield. The Georgians simply couldn’t contend with the onslaught that the Russians could employ from both air and ground. These are regular air force units located in the Transcaucasus region. No need to de-rust them for months to put them into service, but simply the standing forces in the region. Against a force such as the Georgians the simple use of existing available forces was all it required.
The reason that the media might be down on Russia at the moment is because that Russia has essentially reignited the Cold War at the WORST POSSIBLE MOMENT for the Left leaning MSM.
Why? The media is in the tank for Obama and the democrats. Putin just stabbed Obama in the back. No one will elect a complete neophyte Marxist at a time of heavy international tension.
But maybe you're too unkeen to figure that out tovarisch.
Words are words actions are actions. Get back to me when Russia has invaded other territories. Too many people are thinking that the days of the Soviet Union are back with a vengence.
I support nobody. As stated before the conflict is not black and white. Both sides involved in the conflict have blood on their hands.
Many people said the same thing about U.S involvement in Yugoslavia. Kosovo was the problem they say and why did the U.S. bomb targets up and around Belgrade and other Yugoslav cities? Why was is it so hard to understand that a military planner, regardless of nationality, will seek to exert pressure on an ‘enemy’ by bombing such targets?
The U.S. tried to wipe out Milosevic in an airstrike to meet their aims. If the Russians had done the same to Saakashvili it would have been exactly the same principle in their eyes and in relation to how they perceived the conflict.
If you speak to people in Yugoslavia in regards to 1999 the U.S. to them was simply carpet bombing targets inside Yugoslavia with no regards for civilian casualties. Speak to Georgians and you’ll get the same story from them in regards to Russian bombing. The fact are that military targets are sometimes in close proximity to civilian areas - a simple fact of life. Weapons go astray/malfunction and cause innocent civilian deaths.
To the Russians it means nothing to go through international peacekeepers. The peacekeepers will be lightly armed and easily pushed aside if the Russians decide that they need to punish Georgian Forces. The same as the Israeli’s did to peacekeeping forces in Lebanon. If the Russians want to push back Georgian forces and sepratists in order to secure the regions then nobody is going to stop them.
I got a better idea. You get back to me after they have. If I’m in a good mood I may refrain from saying I told you so.
You and your colleagues need to get a clue. Russia is on a TWO front attack and has razed the town of Gori.
Fox News had a reporter on the ground when dozens of armored vehicles entered the town during the “ceasefire” you loudly proclaimed yesterday was showing us Russia was only aiding S. Ossetia.
You claim no long term planning was needed? Wrong. You need lots of planning to assemble that large a force and have it move in hours on two different fronts.
Your claims have been shown wrong by events and facts on the ground. Get over it and let’s move on.
Utter non-sense. A simple two front attack to annex both territories and push ALL Georgian forces back from them. Your analysis is bogus. Simple tactics proclude that any force of that strength is going to push out and clear the area totally of all threats. Did you really expect the Russians to allow Georgian forces to occupy and hold Gori?
Get over yourself. This wasn’t the invasion of Afghanistan! A simple influx of troops and armor initially supported by air power was all it required to get the Georgians crumbling. The Russians had all they required in the Transcaucasus region to do so. No superhuman mobilisation was required to get a force moving. They weren’t exactly facing a force that could stop them and not with the air superiority that they had. Get over yourself with your claims of long term planning.
Breaking it down further the Russian forward units were airborne (VDV) troops and the like of GRU Spetsnaz. Those forces with light armor pushed forward with overwhelming close air support involving Su-25s and Mi-24s. The close-air support broke the back of the Georgian forces with the result that they had no option but to pull back.
The Georgians had the advantage of numbers as the Russian only employed about 15,000 troops in the end between South Ossetia and Abkhazia. To occupy Georgia would have required at least a force of 100,000. To mobilise the initial number of troops for South Ossetia would have required very little preparation. It was clear from the Russian equipment shown on TV that the tank and light armour regiments were not units with upgraded equipment. These would have simply been regular Russian Army units stationed in the border regions. Very basic stuff and certainly not requiring long term mobilisation or planning.
“Utter non-sense. A simple two front attack to annex both territories and push ALL Georgian forces back from them. Your analysis is bogus. Simple tactics proclude that any force of that strength is going to push out and clear the area totally of all threats. Did you really expect the Russians to allow Georgian forces to occupy and hold Gori?”
Anyone got a map handy for this guy. Gori is in the heart of Georgia nowhere near any debated areas of Georgian territory.
Dude, the train has left the station. In fact it left earlier today when Russia sent in their columns of armor and their “friends” looted the place.
Please tell me what you position on the Georgian capital is because I’d like to hear your excuse on that when Russian starts shelling the place. Then you’d probably claim “Well did you really think that Russia would not attack Tblisi?”
You are moving faster than Obama on his positions from yesterday. Please stop already. You’re going to hurt yourself.
Russia’s forces do not have the supplies on hand to even provide socks for their soliders let alone enough fuel and supplies to send thousands of their soliders into a neighboring country without planning.
Here’s a report from AP on the ground today:
Soldiers waved at journalists and one jokingly shouted, “Come with us, beauty, we’re going to Tbilisi.” The convoy roared southeast, toward the Georgian capital, but then turned north and set up camp about an hour’s drive away from it.
So stop already. You were completely wrong. No one really cares at this point. There’s much larger stakes involved. But if you want to continue buying into some small domestic dispute, enjoy.
Try to keep up.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080813/D92HMLDO0.html
Explain how the tank group from Chechnya magically found itself available for duty into Georgia?
Accident? I think not.
Russia even today has a standing army on about a one million. Nearly half a million people are drafted into the Russian army alone each year. For Russia to assemble a force of 15,000 troops from the North Caucasus Military District is nothing. Part of that force which went into South Ossetia and later Abkhazia would have been spearhead units of paratroopers and special forces.
The Russian VDV and Spetsnaz forces are substianial enough and on constant standby. The North Caucasus Military District situated above Georgia alone has a large standing army. For a small fraction of those forces to be assembled and moved into Georgia is nothing. For say 7,000 NCMD troops to exercise is absolutely nothing for them. It is practiced every year in major exercises. This is very basic stuff. Yes gone are the days of the huge Soviet Union army, but the modern Russian army is still very
much active and still there. For Russia to assemble the size of the forces used in Georgia was nothing in the terms of effort. Even the Russian Air Force used in the conflict is all there and based in the North Caucasus Military District.
Caucasus 2008 exercise
‘Lt. Col. Andrei Bobrun, an aide to the commander of the North Caucasus military district, said the exercise involves some 8,000
military personnel, about 700 combat vehicles and over 30 aircraft.’
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2008/russia-080715-rianovosti01.htm
North Caucasus exercise 2007
“The total number of personnel involved in the command-and-staff exercise is over 8,000,” Andrei Bobrun said
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070731/70012347.html
Exercise 2006
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P1-126923638.html
Exercise 2005
A total of about 12,000 people, more than 90 control and command bodies, and 50 military units of Russia will participate in the exercise
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2005/russia-050411-rianovosti01.htm
Please try and keep up yourself. Have you any idea of how many troops and forces are currently in the North Caucasus Military District alone?
Have you no basic knowledge of military tactics? The Russian forces want to dominate the Georgian forces. They pushed and deployed forces in an around Gori to simply exert their total control over Georgian forces. For the Russians it is purley a big stick measure to intimidate the Georgian forces completley. If the Russians were to deploy everything at the moment back to the territories of the disputed regions this would allow Georgian forces to push up and back to pre-conflict positions.
The Russians call the shots at the moment and until THEY are satisfied then they will withdraw their forces. Simple, simple stuff. If you can’t see it then I’m at a loss for you.
Russia even today has a standing army on about a one million. Nearly half a million people are drafted into the Russian army alone each year. For Russia to assemble a force of 15,000 troops from the North Caucasus Military District is nothing. Part of that force which went into South Ossetia and later Abkhazia would have been spearhead units of paratroopers and special forces. The Russian VDV and Spetsnaz forces are substianial enough and on constant standby. The North Caucasus Military District situated above Georgia alone has a large standing army.
For a small fraction of those forces to be assembled and moved into Georgia is nothing. For say 7,000 NCMD troops to exercise is absolutely nothing for them. It is practiced every year in major exercises. This is very basic stuff. Yes gone are the days of the huge Soviet Union army, but the modern Russian army is still very
much active and still there. For Russia to assemble the size of the forces used in Georgia was nothing in the terms of effort. Even the Russian Air Force used in the conflict is all there and based in the North Caucasus Military District.
Caucasus 2008 exercise
‘Lt. Col. Andrei Bobrun, an aide to the commander of the North Caucasus military district, said the exercise involves some 8,000
military personnel, about 700 combat vehicles and over 30 aircraft.’
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2008/russia-080715-rianovosti01.htm
North Caucasus exercise 2007
“The total number of personnel involved in the command-and-staff exercise is over 8,000,” Andrei Bobrun said
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070731/70012347.html
Exercise 2006
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P1-126923638.html
Exercise 2005
A total of about 12,000 people, more than 90 control and command bodies, and 50 military units of Russia will participate in the
exercise
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2005/russia-050411-rianovosti01.htm
You really need to keep up. For Russia to project such a force is absolutely nothing to them. This is their backyard. It is obvious that you have no idea of the standing ground and air forces that are in the North Caucasus Military District. The standing army alone within that disctrict is approximately 100,000. The Russian Air Force units used in the conflict for close air support are there as part of that NCMD force. Simple, simple stuff that you obviously don’t seem to quite understand.
I sympathise really. To most U.S. citizens and many of Freepers they can’t help but pick up on stereotypes of what they perceive the state of the Russian forces to be in. This was not the invasion of Afghanistan or a massive power projection of any sort. The standing forces within NCMD alone, in the current Russian forces, are more than a match for the Georgian military. Using a small portion of those standing forces the Russians took on the Georgians.
Rather than listening to stereotypes, and the usual media hype, in relation to Russian forces take a simple step back and see exactly what took place.
It is a good job that the U.S. wasn’t relying on the likes of you or, certain Freepers, for their assessment of the situation. The intelligence that was landing on the desks of President Bush was certainly NOT that the Russians were intending to occupy the whole of Georgia. Professional level-headed intelligence analysts read the situation correctly and that is what President Bush was being briefed and guided on. No mass Russian mobilisation to support or sustain a force sufficient to occupy and hold Georgia.
Level headed intelligence analysts could see the Russian force dispositions and called the ball accordingly. The Russians weren’t looking to invade Georgia, but simply take away South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgian influence. With this force disposition even though limited the Russians used it to in their terms ‘punish and humiliate’ the Georgians. That is why the Russians chose to put huge pressure on Saakashvili by hitting strategic and economic infrastructure. All part of their ‘punishment’ to Georgia.
Take a look at how U.S. military planners took on the job of putting pressure on the Yugoslavs during 1999. Not only did they attempt to take out Milosovic with an ALCM strike, they also went after economic and other strategic targets. To U.S. planners it was designed to act as a huge lever in order to bring home to the Yugoslav government that there was a price to pay for their actions in Kosovo.
Congratulations to the professional intelligence teams providing President Bush with the correct assessment. If it was left to half the armchair generals on Freepers the U.S. and the west would have been dragged into a huge conflict. Now carefully watch the revisionists come out of the woodwork. In their eyes President Bush obviously threatened Putin and Medvedev with WW3 and that is why the Russians stopped their invasion and total occupation of Georgia. Thank goodness and congratulations once again to the intelligence teams providing that info.
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