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Judge Says University Can Deny Course Credit to Christian Graduates Taught With Creationism Texts
Fox News ^ | August 13, 2008

Posted on 08/13/2008 9:44:45 AM PDT by Sopater

A federal judge has ruled the University of California can deny course credit to Christian high school graduates who have been taught with textbooks that reject evolution and declare the Bible infallible, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles ruled Friday that the school's review committees did not discriminate against Christians because of religious viewpoints when it denied credit to those taught with certain religious textbooks, but instead made a legitimate claim that the texts failed to teach critical thinking and omitted important science and history topics.

Charles Robinson, the university's vice president for legal affairs, told the Chronicle that the ruling "confirms that UC may apply the same admissions standards to all students and to all high schools without regard to their religious affiliations."

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; Philosophy; US: California
KEYWORDS: academia; atheismandstate; christianschools; confesstothestate; creation; creationism; education; evolution; heresy; highereducation; homeschool; judiciary; publikskoolz; ruling; uc
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To: editor-surveyor
Your foolish claim that something is not in the Bible, when it plainly is.

Excuse me? I stand by my claims.

201 posted on 08/14/2008 9:44:02 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: MrB
Christians long ago dropped the idea of using the gov’t to influence the culture.

Google "Dominion theology" and check out some of the articles. Samples:

Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems with the common belief that society should be governed exclusively by the law of God as codified in the Bible, to the exclusion of secular law. The two main streams of Dominion Theology are Christian Reconstructionism and Kingdom Now theology. Though these two differ greatly in their general theological orientation (the first is strongly Reformed and Neo-Calvinistic, the second is Charismatic), they share a postmillenial vision in which the kingdom of God will be established on Earth through political and (in some cases) even military means, preparing the way for or enabling the return of Christ.

All strains of Dominion Theology are small minorities, and are rejected by most mainstream Christians as quite radical. However, Dominion Theology is seen by some as a subset of Dominionism, a term used by some social scientists and journalists to describe a theological form of political ideology, which they claim has broadly influenced the Christian Right in the United States, Canada, and Europe, within Protestant Christian evangelicalism and fundamentalism. Source

Its most common form, Dominionism, represents one of the most extreme forms of Fundamentalist Christianity thought. Its followers, called Dominionists, are attempting to peacefully convert the laws of United States so that they match those of the Hebrew Scriptures. They intend to achieve this by using the freedom of religion in the US to train a generation of children in private Christian religious schools. Later, their graduates will be charged with the responsibility of creating a new Bible-based political, religious and social order. One of the first tasks of this order will be to eliminate religious choice and freedom. Their eventual goal is to achieve the "Kingdom of God" in which much of the world is converted to Christianity. They feel that the power of God's word will bring about this conversion. No armed force or insurrection will be needed; in fact, they believe that there will be little opposition to their plan. People will willingly accept it. All that needs to be done is to properly explain it to them.

All religious organizations, congregations etc. other than strictly Fundamentalist Christianity would be suppressed. Nonconforming Evangelical, main line and liberal Christian religious institutions would no longer be allowed to hold services, organize, proselytize, etc. Society would revert to the laws and punishments of the Hebrew Scriptures. Any person who advocated or practiced other religious beliefs outside of their home would be tried for idolatry and executed. Blasphemy, adultery and homosexual behavior would be criminalized; those found guilty would also be executed. At that time that this essay was originally written, this was the only religious movement in North America of which we were aware which advocates genocide for followers of minority religions and non-conforming members of their own religion. Since then, we have learned of two conservative Christian pastors in Texas who have advocated the execution of all Wiccans. Ralph Reed, the executive director of the conservative public policy group the Christian Coalition has criticized Reconstructionism as "an authoritarian ideology that threatens the most basic civil liberties of a free and democratic society." Source


202 posted on 08/14/2008 9:45:35 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman
" Claiming that all layers are the same age is one of the most ill-informed opinions I have ever heard."

Your 'hearing' is flawed.

All of the layers of which you speak were created by the massive erruption of water and magma that occured at the beginning of the flood, and the formation of today's surface of the Earth was essentially complete within about 50 - 100 years as trapped water released and formed the large canyons and valleys. The rest is still going on today, as land slides continue to occur.

The observed rate of those events, and their magnitude is irrefutable proof that the Earth cannot be more than 8000 years old, and more probably, slightly less than 6000.

The "small comet" bombardment is another proof that is in agreement with those estimates.

203 posted on 08/14/2008 9:51:35 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Jimmy Carter is the skidmark in the panties of American History)
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To: ColdWater

Thus you have proven that you have not read any significant portion of the Bible.

Your claims are absurd.


204 posted on 08/14/2008 9:54:03 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Jimmy Carter is the skidmark in the panties of American History)
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To: Coyoteman
How are you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen...the farm?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Could you expand on this? To whom is the “them” referring?

And..The “farm” is a metaphor for what?

205 posted on 08/14/2008 9:54:08 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: Coyoteman; MrB
"Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems with the common belief that society should be governed exclusively by the law of God as codified in the Bible, to the exclusion of secular law. The two main streams of Dominion Theology are Christian Reconstructionism and Kingdom Now theology. Though these two differ greatly in their general theological orientation (the first is strongly Reformed and Neo-Calvinistic, the second is Charismatic), they share a postmillenial vision in which the kingdom of God will be established on Earth through political and (in some cases) even military means, preparing the way for or enabling the return of Christ."

Even you should be able to see that these people are fools that are in no way guided by the word, or will of God.

206 posted on 08/14/2008 9:56:50 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Jimmy Carter is the skidmark in the panties of American History)
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To: ColdWater
What?

Cordially,

207 posted on 08/14/2008 9:57:31 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: editor-surveyor

My claims are less absurd than yours. Thank you.


208 posted on 08/14/2008 10:00:49 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: editor-surveyor

Where did all the ‘great flood’ water go?


209 posted on 08/14/2008 10:02:36 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: editor-surveyor
The observed rate of those events, and their magnitude is irrefutable proof that the Earth cannot be more than 8000 years old, and more probably, slightly less than 6000.

Opinion not based on fact alert.

210 posted on 08/14/2008 10:04:07 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
After reading this, do you really think we are a Christian nation? While the country is limping along on a Christian legacy, unfortunately, the majority of its citizens ( Thanks to our Secular Humanist government schools) will soon **not** be Christian.

http://www.exodusmandate.org/art_we_are_loosing_our_children.htm

"We are losing our children. Research indicates that 70%of teens who are involved in a church youth group will stop attending church within two years of their high school graduation. Think about that statement. It addresses only teenagers who attend church and participate in the youth group. What does that suggest about those teens who may attend church but do not take part in the youth group, or who do not go to church at all?"

"In a talk at Southwestern Seminary Josh McDowell noted that less than 1/3 of today's youth attend church. If he is right and 67% do not go to church and then we lose 70% of those who do, that means that within two years of finishing high school only 10% of young Americans will attend church."

http://www.exodusmandate.org/art_20050404-salt-and-light.htm

The reality of the situation is that very little Christian witnessing is ever done by children in public schools to begin with. As with everything else in life, there are of course some exceptions to the rule.

Without question, the lion's share of converting and witnessing is accomplished through the public education curriculum, peer pressure from other children -- most of whom are non-Christian -- and educators who implant (either subtly or obviously and conscientiously or unconscientiously) their humanistic, neo-pagan or new age doctrines within the minds and hearts of Christian children. These children, I might add, are a captive audience with little or no chance to speak up or opportunity to rebut their teachers.

The research data on the success of the public schools in indoctrinating Christian youth with humanistic or neo-pagan worldviews is overwhelming. The Nehemiah Institute's worldview PEERS test shows that 83-percent of the children from committed Christian families in public schools adopt a secular humanist or Marxist socialist worldview. At the SBC's 2002 annual meeting, the Southern Baptist Council on Family Life reported, among other disturbing things, that 88-percent of the children raised in evangelical homes leave church at age 18. Barna Research reports that only 9-percent of born-again teens believe in moral absolutes, and more than half believe that Jesus sinned while He was on earth. We believe the fact that 80-percent of Christian families send their children to public schools is a prime reason for this lost legacy.

211 posted on 08/14/2008 10:07:16 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: I still care
Well, I don’t know if that verse applies to dinosaurs, but none of the three, elephant, hippo, or rhino have tails like a cedar tree.

The passage states:

He bends his tail like a cedar

That doesn't say that the creature has a tail that looks like a cedar, just that it moves (i.e., sways) like a cedar tree. Elephant and hippo tails are like that.

212 posted on 08/14/2008 10:09:53 AM PDT by Citizen Blade ("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
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To: wintertime
How are you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen...the farm?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Could you expand on this? To whom is the “them” referring?

And..The “farm” is a metaphor for what?

The line comes from a song written after WWI. The song, How You Gonna Keep 'Em Down On The Farm After They've Seen Paree? (1919), was written by Lewis and Young and the music was by Walter Donaldson (1893-1947).

It refers to the problem of keeping soldiers returning from the war in Europe working on the family farms after they saw the wide world (i.e., Paris).

I hope this helps you understand my post.

213 posted on 08/14/2008 10:10:49 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Diamond
otherwise you could not say on the basis of that premise alone that creation science is a contradiction in terms.

I would say that creation science is defined by its claim that phenomena are constantly being stirred by forces from beyond.

Newton was among the first to formalize the proposition that the behavior of physical phenomena follows constant rules.

214 posted on 08/14/2008 10:13:17 AM PDT by js1138
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To: editor-surveyor
All of the layers of which you speak were created by the massive erruption of water and magma that occured at the beginning of the flood, and the formation of today's surface of the Earth was essentially complete within about 50 - 100 years as trapped water released and formed the large canyons and valleys. The rest is still going on today, as land slides continue to occur.

The observed rate of those events, and their magnitude is irrefutable proof that the Earth cannot be more than 8000 years old, and more probably, slightly less than 6000.

The "small comet" bombardment is another proof that is in agreement with those estimates.

This is such nonsense its not even worth responding to.

Suffice it to say that you are probably the only person in the world that believes this stuff.

215 posted on 08/14/2008 10:13:40 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman
"This is such nonsense its not even worth responding to."

That must be the reason that you responded.

"Suffice it to say that you are probably the only person in the world that believes this stuff."

Had you followed the information that has been posted here over the years, you would be aware that about 2/3 of the people of this country believe these facts.

216 posted on 08/14/2008 10:18:42 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Jimmy Carter is the skidmark in the panties of American History)
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To: wintertime
Gee! So they move to another state

That's the point of each state essentially running its own affairs (within the context of the Constitution). If Californians want to fund public universities, that is their choice.

The truth is that the Secular Humanists would **kill** Christians if the could. They just can’t get away with it...(yet). Yes, they really do hate Christians that much.

Wintertime, I say this not out of malice but actual concern- you are starting to derail with comments like this. Do you live in fear of your liberal and atheist neighbors?

217 posted on 08/14/2008 10:19:30 AM PDT by Citizen Blade ("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
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To: Coyoteman; editor-surveyor; MrB
Google “Dominion theology” and check out some of the articles. Samples:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

These people are breaking the First Commandment!

They are taking the Lord's name in vain. They are falsely using God's name to justify action and philosophy that is **not** Godly.

By the way, Secular Humanists break the same First Commandment with their religion when they oppress Christians.

Secular Humanists use the use the name of their false god of atheistic materialism to oppress others by keeping them out of their colleges, taxing them to support their religion in our government schools, and keeping them from being hired for jobs.

218 posted on 08/14/2008 10:19:57 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: Coyoteman

Get it!


219 posted on 08/14/2008 10:21:43 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: Citizen Blade

Do you live in fear of your liberal and atheist neighbors?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No...Not **yet**. They just can’t get away with it...(yet).


220 posted on 08/14/2008 10:24:03 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: cartoonistx
Sounds like random, unguided, non-intelligently designed evolution to me!

I suppose it might, to someone who hasn't thought about it.

In general terms there are physical phenomena that can be modeled by strict determinism. Billiard balls and clockworks are the common metaphors for this kind of analysis.

The other class of phenomena are those ruled by statistics. The casino is a good metaphor. Each roll of the dice is unguided, but the house is guaranteed a steady income.

Most really interesting phenomena need to be analyzed as versions of the casino. Quantum physics, weather, and living things. The fact there is a level at which "random" events occurs does not alter the fact that the house has a steady income. In evolution, change is random, but randomness does not characterize the direction or trend of populations. Selection prunes populations the way a gardener prunes a topiary.

Darwin's great insight was that there are gardeners and there are grazers, and both shape the tree of life.

221 posted on 08/14/2008 10:26:00 AM PDT by js1138
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To: wintertime
No...Not **yet**. They just can’t get away with it...(yet).

wintertime- I know you and I don't agree on much, but you don't strike me as a bad person. Misguided, but not bad.

But comments like this make me actually concerned about your mental well-being.

I don't want you to take this as in insult- but I would suggest you seek some help if you really are this paranoid about the world around you. It's not healthy.

222 posted on 08/14/2008 10:27:37 AM PDT by Citizen Blade ("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
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To: wintertime
By the way, Secular Humanists break the same First Commandment with their religion when they oppress Christians.

Isn't it pretty well self-evident that anyone who doesn't worship the God of Abraham breaks the First Commandment?

223 posted on 08/14/2008 10:31:18 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Citizen Blade
But comments like this make me actually concerned about your mental well-being.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The 2000 election did it for me, Citizen Blade. That is when I had my epiphany.

I realized then that the liberal/Marxists are **not** good hearted people who were somewhat misguided in their thinking. I realized that they were seriously, at their core, people who did NOT have a sense of fairness or of good will.

After that election, I realized that a liberal/Marxist could never be a friend. They were either too stupid or too evil.

224 posted on 08/14/2008 10:34:28 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: editor-surveyor
Had you followed the information that has been posted here over the years, you would be aware that about 2/3 of the people of this country believe these facts.

I think that it is 79% that believe in alien life forms.

225 posted on 08/14/2008 10:35:14 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: js1138
In evolution, change is random,

Now, why do all the laymen make this error. Or, is it a deliberate lie?

226 posted on 08/14/2008 10:38:03 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: tacticalogic
Isn't it pretty well self-evident that anyone who doesn't worship the God of Abraham breaks the First Commandment?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well...That has consequences, doesn't it?

Have you read the book “Shogun”? There was a reason that the Indian tribes rose up to overthrew Montezuma.

What we see in cultures that don't worship the God of Abraham is slavery, gulags, concentration camps, women as chattel, killing of humans by the 100 millions, human sacrifice, infanticide of baby girls, abandonment of the elderly, war lords, torture, and violation of what we consider First Amendment human Rights... etc.

Yeah!...Great life! (sarc)

227 posted on 08/14/2008 10:49:33 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: tacticalogic
Isn't it pretty well self-evident that anyone who doesn't worship the God of Abraham breaks the First Commandment?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well...That has consequences, doesn't it?

Have you read the book “Shogun”? There was a reason that the Indian tribes rose up to overthrew Montezuma.

What we see in cultures that don't worship the God of Abraham is slavery, gulags, concentration camps, women as chattel, killing of humans by the 100 millions, human sacrifice, infanticide of baby girls, abandonment of the elderly, war lords, torture, and violation of what we consider First Amendment human Rights... etc.

Yeah!...Great life! (sarc)

228 posted on 08/14/2008 10:50:12 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: tacticalogic

Sorry about the double post.


229 posted on 08/14/2008 10:50:52 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: wintertime
What we see in cultures that don't worship the God of Abraham is slavery, gulags, concentration camps, women as chattel, killing of humans by the 100 millions, human sacrifice, infanticide of baby girls, abandonment of the elderly, war lords, torture, and violation of what we consider First Amendment human Rights... etc.

Just to take one example off the top of my head, but the Japanese are not Judeo-Christians, and they do not do any of these things. India is overwhelmingly Hindu, and we don't see any of these things, either.

230 posted on 08/14/2008 10:53:10 AM PDT by Citizen Blade ("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
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To: wintertime
What we see in cultures that don't worship the God of Abraham is slavery, gulags, concentration camps, women as chattel, killing of humans by the 100 millions, human sacrifice, infanticide of baby girls, abandonment of the elderly, war lords, torture, and violation of what we consider First Amendment human Rights... etc.

Well then we'll just have to make it illegal to worship any other God in order to protect our First Amendment rights.

231 posted on 08/14/2008 10:55:03 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: ColdWater
Now, why do all the laymen make this error. Or, is it a deliberate lie?

What specifically are you referring to as the error lie: denying the fact that mutation is "random" with respect to fitness, or denying the fact that evolution really is directed, albeit not by aliens or angels?

232 posted on 08/14/2008 10:55:10 AM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
the fact that mutation is "random" with respect to fitness

Can you ost a source?

233 posted on 08/14/2008 10:56:31 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: editor-surveyor

Amazing - we can actually show where people openly state that they want to use the schools and government to impose Secular Humanism on OUR children,

and someone with a grudge against Christians, for some reason, finds some obscure group and paints all Christians as wanting to use government to impose a theocracy.

Yeah, a Christian based (not imposed) society would be SUCH a threat to everyone in America... /sarc

And we’ve seen how much our society has “evolved” since the secularists have used gov’t to kick religion out of public education.

Just goes to show you, all the “intellectual objections” that evoatheists bring up are just so much BS. They have some narcissistic reason within them to reject Christianity and God. Until they address that, don’t bother arguing on their “surface” objections.


234 posted on 08/14/2008 10:59:56 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: Citizen Blade
Just to take one example off the top of my head, but the Japanese are not Judeo-Christians, and they do not do any of these things. India is overwhelmingly Hindu, and we don't see any of these things, either.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Uh?...Do you think that maybe Christians gave the Japanese an “attitude adjustment” not so long ago?

India is building on the foundations built by the Christian Raj. By the way, India only gained its independence in 1947?...So..We'll see!
Also....India has a problem with infant girl infanticide and girl baby abortion and its ration of boys to girls is way out of wack.

235 posted on 08/14/2008 11:07:21 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: MrB
Amazing - we can actually show where people openly state that they want to use the schools and government to impose Secular Humanism on OUR children,

And...Christians stupidly let them do it!!!!

Christians should be doing three things IMMEDIATELY!!:

1) Getting their kids OUT of the atheistic government schools. Their own children are their most important mission field.

2) Getting the kids of their congregation out of the atheistic government schools. The children of their congregation are their next most important mission field.

3) Working to shut down government schooling by starving them of money, and electing representatives that will privatize education.

And we’ve seen how much our society has “evolved” since the secularists have used gov’t to kick religion out of public education.

Government education got its start in the U.S. because Protestant Christians of mid and late 19th century were fearful of Catholic immigrants and the Catholic religion. They simply could not imagine that government schools would ever be anything but Protestant Christian in philosophy. What STUPID people!

Any government powerful enough to force children into government schools that Protestant Christian in worldview, is powerful enough to force Christian kids into schools that preach atheistic Secular Humanism!

William Wilberforce and other Christian activists lobbied mightily for compulsory ( police enforced) government education in England and the U.S. If they could see today the atheistic Secular Humanism that these government schools have birthed, they would be shocked to the quick. Yes, I am shouting! I am exasperated!

236 posted on 08/14/2008 11:26:23 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: ColdWater

You can start here.
http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/
This is observational evidence that mutation is random with respect to fitness. There have been laboratory observations of mutation and fitness.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1634489/posts


237 posted on 08/14/2008 11:27:49 AM PDT by js1138
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To: wintertime
Government education got its start in the U.S. because Protestant Christians of mid and late 19th century were fearful of Catholic immigrants and the Catholic religion.

Public schools have existed in this country since before there was a US. Even Thomas Jefferson was a supporter of publicly-funded schools.

And publicly funded universities have existed in the West since at least the 11th century, with the founding of Cambridge and Oxford.

238 posted on 08/14/2008 11:32:07 AM PDT by Citizen Blade ("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
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To: tacticalogic
Well then we'll just have to make it illegal to worship any other God in order to protect our First Amendment rights.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where did I say this? Please post link.

Doing that would be breaking the Commandment, “Do not steal”. Who would do as you suggest is stealing a person's freedom.

Any Christian who would do that would also be breaking the First Commandment. They would be using the Lord's name in vain to steal personal freedom and freedom of conscience from their neighbor.

Christian who are abiding by the Commandments don't do as you suggest.

Secular Humanists don't have such scruples and do it all the time! Government schools are a perfect example.

239 posted on 08/14/2008 11:32:19 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: js1138

I see you are moving the goalposts. Your original statement only said mutation is random. You now add “with respect to fitness”.


240 posted on 08/14/2008 11:34:21 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Coyoteman

I’ve gotta say, your posting your own posts to other websites comes off as pretty self-aggrandizing.


241 posted on 08/14/2008 11:44:19 AM PDT by jmc813 (Welcome to New York, Brett!)
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To: ColdWater
I see you are moving the goalposts. Your original statement only said mutation is random. You now add “with respect to fitness”.

Please explain how this is significantly different.

Explain how a pair of dice that is "truly random" is different from a pair of dice that is merely random with respect to winning or losing.

There might be a philosophical difference, but not a difference that can be detected by mere mortals.

All the philosophizing is irrelevant, because what experiment shows is that mutation produces all possible combinations of change. Even if mutations occurred in some kind of alphabetical order, the outcome would be the same. Those that are neutral or favorable will show up more frequently in subsequent generations.

242 posted on 08/14/2008 11:48:15 AM PDT by js1138
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To: ColdWater; editor-surveyor
I think that it is 79% that believe in alien life forms.

Primarily evolutionists since natural science can't explain the origin of life.
243 posted on 08/14/2008 11:54:43 AM PDT by Sopater (A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left. ~ Ecc 10:2 (NASB))
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To: ColdWater

We are all works in progress. If you’ve decided that trying to insult me makes you feel better, I won’t discuss this with you anymore.


244 posted on 08/14/2008 11:56:00 AM PDT by I still care ("Remember... for it is the doom of men that they forget" - Merlin, from Excalibur)
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To: js1138

If you had an inking of biology, you would know that mutations are not random. As in the output of a dice that has sides numbered 1 to 6, ONLY 1,2,3,4,5,6 are possible outcomes. Nine is not a possibility.


245 posted on 08/14/2008 11:56:22 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: I still care
If you’ve decided that trying to insult me makes you feel better, I won’t discuss this with you anymore.

Implying that you go to creationists' websites is an insult?

246 posted on 08/14/2008 11:58:13 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: I still care
We are all works in progress. If you’ve decided that trying to insult me makes you feel better, I won’t discuss this with you anymore.

Insult? I merely observed that you got your info from a creationist website since what you had posted as coming from the Bible does NOT come from the Bible but comes from creationist websites that represent it as coming from the Bible.

247 posted on 08/14/2008 12:02:17 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: js1138
All the philosophizing is irrelevant, because what experiment shows is that mutation produces all possible combinations of change.

Mutation does NOT produce all possible combinations of change.

248 posted on 08/14/2008 12:04:50 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Citizen Blade
Public schools have existed in this country since before there was a US. Even Thomas Jefferson was a supporter of publicly-funded schools.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You should read Benjamin Franklin's treatise on public education. There is nothing even close to that today. The atheistic Secular Humanists would be in court in a nanosecond if anyone tried to get government funding for it. I expect Jefferson felt similarly about education. .

And,.. yes,.. you are correct that there were scattered communities that did compel the education of children but homeschooling was also completely acceptable and the standard for education was basic literacy and very basic arithmetic. Two to three years of education ( sometimes only a 2 or 3 months out of the year or attendance at Sunday school after church once a week ) was sufficient to fulfill the law. Most often those community schools were church owned and staffed.

The modern system of compulsory (police enforced) government owned and run schools, as we know them today, did not get a solid foothold in the U.S. until the mid 1800s. It was not established in every state of the Union until the first decade of the 20th century.

Harvard, as you might know, was once a church school, as was many of our earliest universities and colleges in the U.S.

As for Cambridge and Oxford...I bet the publicly funded Catholic Church and later the public funded Church of England had absolutely nothing to do with it. ( yeah right!) (sarc with eyeroll)

249 posted on 08/14/2008 12:10:35 PM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: wintertime
Where did I say this? Please post link.

I love the way you submit hyperbolic arguments that leave only one logical conclusion, and then distance yourself from that conclusion.

250 posted on 08/14/2008 12:13:42 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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