Skip to comments.McCain alarms base with abortion comment
Posted on 08/14/2008 8:54:39 PM PDT by Alter Kaker
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Good lord ma'am. Are u on the right board?
[... Murdering a baby is evidence that the person is not a Christian, despite
(checking a box, or) the attitudes of many US churches to the contrary...]
I completely understand your arguments now.
Perhaps I should say many Americans who call themselves
Christians and who even believe they are Christian (I
know many) have abortions because they are naive. They
trust that the Government would not make something lawful
that is immoral.
[... blame feminism and a few murdering doctors. Feminism has killed more worldwide thru abortion than Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot coulda dreamed of...]
You’re right. I don’t blame Government for abortion.
Though the courts made it legal, “we” made it lethal.
Why do you ask if I’m on the right forum?
ending the legality of infanticide is a crucible issue for most of us here and is very high of the wish list of the board's founder
yet you claim that we should just let government manage business ( a platitude which is pretty broad)
and by default leave abortion legal ..
that is something I will never submit to and I'm surprised to hear a conservative say as such
you make this claim sort of about government not entering morality which one would believe means you don't cotton to religion in government yet your tagline is a pet Bible verse for Jews and some Christians advocating US foreign policy that favors Israel based on Scripture.*
*my own personal support of Israel has nothing to do with my Christianity
so do you favor leaving abortion laws alone since the government has no business dealing in morality (what about killing?) but you think it's ok to base foreign policy on morality (religion)
I been in these campaigns before; not at the highest level, but high enough to at least 2nd if not first-hand how these discussions play out.
-McCain now has the support of 88% of the base. At this stage, it effectively means he has a lock on the base (note: Obama’s base support is only 83%). This is despite McCain’s not having to change his position on immigration or judges. In other words, his attacks on Obama are all he needs to get the sheep to follow. He need not make any more “concessions” to get the base vote. He is “wise” to broaden his appeal, esp. amongst women by selecting a pro-choice candidate since he’s tapped out his base anyway.
The Base IS going to the polls to vote AGAISNT Obama anyhow. They’ll hold their nose and vote (R). And no one is going to “stay home”; typically there are local issues that bring conservatives to the polls anyway, so while they’re there, they’ll pick the best of two evils which is McCain.
Decisions must be made from now on, to expand McCain’s coalition; while unpleasant, its safe to say you can disregard the base’s views on immigration and abortion, provided that the party can make Obama’s presidency seem far worse. At the end of the day and despite all the complaints and idle threats, the base will be reliable voters.
OK... I’m pretty tired, but I’ll do my best to answer.
My post assumes that abortion never should have been
legalized. However, the Supreme Court made killing
the unborn legal and that in my opinion makes them
untrusted to make moral (religious) decisions.
Parents have allowed our government to be the moral
arbiters for our children. That’s just wrong. Don’t
you think we could turn this lost ship if families
actually taught Godly principles from the home?
I agree that parsing morality and the law is difficult.
But the Supreme Court crossed into religion when they
decided a fetus isn’t a life. That’s not their job.
Read the entire thread. Perhaps you’ll understand
what I’m trying to say a little better.
“If McCain picks a pro-abortion vp he is toast.”
I agree, and if he does that it will demonstrate just how politically unattuned he still is.
It would be a shame for this country to see a Marxist POTUS.
Let’s face the facts. Most “conservatives” will slink into the voting booth and vote for Sen. McCain regardless of what he does or says. Sure. They’ll talk the talk about being dsisappointed, and whine and moan all the way. But when the day is done, they’ll still line up to vote for him.
The GOP is well aware of this, which is precisely why we have seen so little progress on issues like the deficit, abortion, and border security over the years.
“The veep has no power to nominate judges.”
Well now, as I understand it, a veep might become president, especially when the sitting president is old.
“Personally, I’m getting to the opinion Lieberman would be a good choice for veep.”
I like Lieberman too— one of the few pro-choice politicians who I do like [partly because he used to be pro-life before running with Gore]— though as VEEP, I think that would be a mistake. If McCain chooses him, it will be a strange convention. How would McCain prevent the spectacle? I heard Rasmussin and Zogby discuss it with Hannity. True— be wary of what pollsters say, but they made a strong case against Lieberman.
As for our legal arguments, have you read Mark Levin's Men in Black? I highly recommend it.
“I believe that Government is not to blame for this wholesale slaughter of the innocent.”
What happened is that FDR appointed a bunch of radical justices. And prior to that, the colleges were infiltrated with leftist constitutional law professors [Coulter’s ‘Treason’ sheds some light on Marxist infiltration]. If you study the shift in our legal system, the drastic changes first occurred from the FDR court. The ABA to this day is incredibly leftist. That's why Bush had a hard time with his nominees— he refused to listen to the ABA’s brazen partisanship.
“Moral decisions come from Bible-Torah literacy, (Psalm 139), not from legislation.”
Our law is founded on national tradition and heritage. Black's Book on Law— if memory serves— is a good source to find what genuinely settled law is. A single dissent, so far as I'm concerned, is not settled law. There were strong dissents in Roe v. Wade. Also note that our ‘esteemed’ justices later ruled against the Constitution in their Kelo decision. So it goes beyond abortion. That was a warning bell.
We also were two supreme court justices away from losing our rights to treaties— that recent Supreme Court decision regarding the right of Texas to execute illegal aliens who murder.
“Roe v. Wade aside, we have not been forced to kill our babies. Abortion statistics are staggering because we (yes, I mean Judeo-Christians) have chosen to murder our unborn.”
That is thought provoking, but we could also legalize everything — stealing, murder by anyone's definition— you name it. We would not be forced to do those things, but obviously, the government would be negligent to allow it.
“I believe that liberals have used the abortion debate to divide and conquer. We need to stop this naive militancy.”
We need to educate those who fail to understand originalism in the courts. And frankly, we need to let people know they can pressure congress to impeach rogue justices. We do have that power in the Constitution, although constitutional law professors try to convince themselves that we don't.
And you shall teach them (Gods statutes and ordinances V1) to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up. V19.
The law is actually supposed to help preserve our national traditions. The legal term is ‘natural law’. The more we break away from it, the more our society breaks down.
“Though separation of church and state cannot be found in the Constitution, the following might be a better way to view the concept Morality is personal and none of the Governments business. Anything otherwise is kin to dictating religion.”
The original intent of the Founders was to prevent a government run religion. We do not even have the constitutional right to worship Satan or multiple gods. We have the right to “ ... worship God ... “ as we so choose. Monotheism, agnosticism— and arguably atheism— are the only religious rights we have.
“Abortion and terrorism are both wars against humanity. But the battleground for the unborn should be waged from the home (church), not the Supreme Court!”
The original definition of life beginning was officially established long before Roe. Life begins when the child first stirs in the womb. [If anything, modern technology shows that we should err toward life beginning even sooner.] If a murderer intends to kill an unborn child, many people [and some states] have the sense to see that villainy for what it is. The Supreme Court overreached by imposing its will over the states.
— not a single state had such unrestricted abortion before the Supreme Court decreed it to be national policy in 1973 — Ronald Reagan
The ‘right’ to abortion is based on a dissent which led to a fictitious privacy right. That's right. Roe v. Wade is based on privacy rights— not from law, but from a dissent. Talk about absurd. That ‘privacy right’ that the dissent conjured was never discovered in the Constitution until 1961. That's how weak Roe v. Wade is.
The modern right to privacy began in 1961 in Justice John Marshall Harlan's dissent in Poe vs. Ullman. — Mark Levin's ‘Men in Black’, page 55.
One should not lightly ignore the dissents in Roe v. Wade. And you might be surprised to hear what some of the justices were like. For example: Thurgood Marshall [a man who admitted that watching soap operas helped him decide cases] Blackmun [who was influenced by fan mail and hate mail], and William O. Douglas [riddled with scandal]. Overpopulation was mentioned more than once by the justices who ‘won the vote’ in Roe v. Wade. Should that have even been on their minds? The Supreme Court's job isn't to legislate. Thoughts of overpopulation are something for legislators to ponder and perhaps to amend the Constitution if there's a need.
I hope to one day write about this in more detail.
I take no pleasure in bashing McCain, and shall await his choice of running mate.
But I’m not hopeful.
That's fine. Heck, you can even go ahead and throw a neer neer nanny nanny boo boo in while you are at it. I would rather be wrong by being skeptical of the media versus trusting them. Oh, and for the record, I think there is a good chance he will choose a pro-choice VP, just not based on this. It is going to be one of his 'good friends' that would be high profile and provide a strategic move (in his mind). Probably Lieberman, Powell, or some other big name figure... I really doubt Ridge, especially if you take out all of the media comments and just look at what McAmnesty said, he never used the words VP in any of the direct quotes, those where editorial statements by the press because they don't give parenthetical quotes as to what they asked, only summarized.
Grammar 101 time.. is, what you put in parenthesis a direct quote or is it an editorial statement? Do me a favor, go back to the very first article on this and copy only the direct parenthetical quotes of McCain, not any of the editorialized comments- only direct quotes. Tell me if you saw only his quotes, never seeing the editorial comments, if you would write the same summary as the press did? As I said to Grunthor in a previous comment, I think there is a good chance he will pick a pro-choice VP, Lieberman or Powell, not Ridge as these article imply. The only folks that used the term VP in this article is the press. We need to get back to our old FReeper selves of being critical and distrusting of the media first, not assuming they are right first...
You hit on the KEY point here. A lot of things are 'legal' that aren't ethical or right. It is the choice of each and every individual who has an abortion that makes it a lethal atrocity.
When it becomes obvious to the general public that the two-party system has become a game of illusion it will be pitch fork and torch time.
Please FreepMail me if you want on or off my Pro-Life Ping List.
You should have heard Mark Levin last night talk about this. This is the easiest way McCain can blow it.
I would like to add to Arthur’s post 160 with some additional history to the disgrace that is Roe.
A BRIEF SURVEY OF US ABORTION LAW BEFORE THE 1973 DECISION
By Brian Young (excerpts) http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/LIFBFROE.TXT
In the years prior to and immediately after the American Revolution, colonists and citizens followed the rule of law brought by British settlers, the “common law.” Rather than being a code of statutes passed by a legislature and printed in a book, the common law was a set of legal standards established in England through court decisions and legal custom.
According to Sir William Blackstone, the renowned 18th century English jurist, under common law, the abortion of a ‘quickened’ fetus was a ‘very heinous misdemeanor.’ At that time the penalty for misdemeanors could be severe; loss of a limb, confiscation of property or life in prison.
‘Quickening’ - when a pregnant woman first feels her child move - generally occurs in the fourth month. Scholars have noted that the common law requirement of a ‘quickened’ baby for the crime of abortion was probably based on a very practical consideration. Since there were no pregnancy tests in the 18th century, evidence that a baby’s movement had been felt might have been the only way to establish with any certainty in a court of law that a pregnancy had existed.
The abandonment of the “quickening” requirement coincided with the 19th century discovery of how conception takes place. The public, lawmakers and jurists were becoming aware of the scientific fact that life begins when a sperm enters an ovum.
Abortion Statutes of the 19th & 20th Centuries (excerpts) http://www.missourilife.org/law/preroe.htm
During the first decades of the 1800’s, scientists began to understand the cellular basis of life and for the first time were able to observe the process of fertilization in mammals. As the stages of development became clear, it also became clear that abortion kills a living human being, no matter what the stage of the child’s development. The resulting scientific knowledge about the process of conception and development led to efforts to enact stronger bans on abortion. In addition, scientific progress allowed for surgical means of performing abortion, and abortion was perceived to be on the increase. Beginning in 1859, the American Medical Association called for strong anti-abortion laws and vigorous enforcement of them. In view of the claim by twentieth century abortionists that physicians did this only to protect their own profession or solely to protect women’s health, it is useful to quote the doctors themselves on why they wanted action by the states:
“The first of these causes is a wide-spread popular ignorance of the true character of the crime—a belief, even among mothers themselves, that the foetus is not alive till after the period of quickening.
“The second of the agents alluded to is the fact that the profession themselves are frequently supposed careless of fetal life; . . .
“The third reason of the frightful extent of this crime is found in the grave defects of our laws, both common and statute, as regards the independent and actual existence of the child before birth, as a living being.
“In accordance, therefore, with the facts in the case, the Committee would advise that this body, representing, as it does, the physicians of the land, publicly express its abhorrence of the unnatural and now rapidly increasing crime of abortion; that it avow its true nature, as no simple offence against public morality and decency, no mere misdemeanor, no attempt upon the life of the mother, but the wanton and murderous destruction of her child. . “ Volume 12, Transactions of the American Medical Association, pp. 75-78 (1859).
The AMA adopted the recommendation described above and sponsored initiatives in all states, spurring most legislatures to enact strong prohibitions upon abortion that swept away the “quickening” distinction. In the remaining states, abortion remained prohibited by common law.
A BRIEF SURVEY OF US ABORTION LAW BEFORE THE 1973 DECISION
by Brian Young (excerpts) http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/LIFBFROE.TXT
Pro-abortion historians claim that these laws were passed primarily, if not solely, to protect women from possibly fatal abortions. Concern for pre-term babies was not a factor, they claim. Yet, as law professor Joseph Dellapenna has noted, all surgeries at that time involved substantial risks of death. If legislators were motivated to pass anti-abortion statutes only to protect women, why did they not protect other patients by banning other potentially dangerous fatal elective surgeries?
Coincidentally or not, during this period of pro-life legislative activity Congress passed and 28 states ratified the 14th Amendment, prohibiting any state from depriving “any person of life, liberty, or property without the due process of law.”
By 1910, every state except Kentucky had passed an anti-abortion law (and Kentucky’s courts had declared abortion at any stage of gestation to be illegal).
By 1967, not much had changed. In 49 states, abortion was a felony; in New Jersey, it was a high misdemeanor. Furthermore, 29 states banned abortion advertising, and many outlawed the manufacture or distribution of abortifacients. In 1967, though, state abortion laws began to change, but only after years of organized campaigns by pro-abortion forces.
The American Law Institute (ALI) proposed, in its 1959 model criminal code for all the states, a “reform” abortion law. The model bill, approved by ALI in 1962, declared that abortion should be permitted for the physical or mental health of the mother, for fetal abnormality, and for rape or incest.
While leaders of the American legal community were promoting radical changes in state abortion law, a 1962 case in Arizona generated sympathetic press coverage of the notion of “justifiable abortion.”
Mrs. Sherri Finkbine, a married mother, made public her intention to abort her fifth child. She had taken some tranquilizers/sleeping pills her husband had brought home from a trip to England. The pills turned out to be Thalidomide, a drug that had become associated with birth defects. Fearful of giving birth to a handicapped child, Mrs Finkbine traveled to Sweden, where she had her baby aborted.
In June 1967, the American Medical Association voted to change that body’s long-standing opposition to abortion. With a new resolution, the AMA now condoned abortion for the life or health of the mother, for a baby’s ‘incapacitating’ physical deformity or mental deficiency, or for cases of rape or incest.
That same year, Colorado, North Carolina, and California became the first states to adopt versions of the ALI “reform” abortion law. By 1970, though, four states - New York, Alaska, Hawaii and Washington - passed laws that basically allowed abortion on demand. Of those four, New York’s was the only law without a residency requirement and the state quickly became the nation’s abortion capital.
The pro-abortion onslaught was beginning to face opposition, though, as pro-life forces organized. In 1972, the New York legislature voted to repeal the state’s liberal abortion law, but Governor Nelson Rockefeller vetoed the repeal. Ballot questions in Michigan and North Dakota in 1972 attempted to decriminalize abortion; the measures were defeated by majorities of 63% and 78%, respectively.
Just as pro-lifers were beginning to turn the tide however, the Supreme Court handed down Roe vs Wade in January 1973. With one judicial stroke, over 200 years of legal protection for the unborn was rendered null and void. For the first time in American history, abortion was the “law of the land”.
For all those taken by surprise at MacCain’s duplicity, misrepresentation and general untrustworthiness, I have but one question: “What planet have you folks been on for the last twenty years?”
I had heard of a few accounts where fathers kicked their pregnant girlfriends in the gut. Or they had friends or hired thugs do it for them. Did you hear or see anything like that?
I only heard about 5 min of Mark last night, sadly.
Thank you for that in-depth information on abortion history. I’ll be studying it more closely after this VEEP matter is resolved.
On a practical strategery note: McCain has a powerful issue against Obama-- Obama's scandalous live 'abortion' issue. Being a hypocrite by choosing someone pro-choice undermines him. If his VEEP is pro-life, then he's well positioned to expose Obama. And even if Hellery squeaks and cackles through the nomination, it would not hurt to tap into the GOP energy of being pro-life.
McCain is believing his own ego.
McCain’s VP choice is his first presidential act. For him to “go left” is just a showing of incompetence.
McCains VP choice can only HURT him not help him. A pro abortion choice will only give the election to Obama.
McCain just another country club republican disconnected from outside the beltway.
[I have but one question: What planet have you folks been on for the last twenty years?]
Like the Great Rumsfeld said, you have to fight with the resources you have.
According to one of Mark Levin's sources, McCain is opposed to appointing Lieberman, but his advisers are trying hard to talk him into it.
McCain strikes me as someone who likes compliments and hates strident opposition. That doesn't help him fit in with conservatives well. Most conservatives don't mince words. That's what leftists do [unless it's behind your back or through anonymity].
“As I said to Grunthor in a previous comment, I think there is a good chance he will pick a pro-choice VP, Lieberman or Powell, not Ridge as these article imply.”
And he will lose, he will deserve to.
We all will lose.
“We all will lose.”
Heck that happened when Juanito got nominated.
McCain has a base to alarm?
I am puzzled by all this talk about this, we have to be talking about Joe as he is the only Lieberman in the Senate.
Does this make sense for the GOP?:
[Senator Lieberman was first elected to the United States Senate in 1988, scoring the nation’s biggest political upset that year by a margin of just 10,000 votes. Six years later, he made history by winning the biggest landslide victory ever in a Connecticut Senate race, drawing 67 percent of the vote and beating his opponent by more than 350,000 votes. In 2000, Senator Lieberman was elected by another overwhelming margin to a third term.
In 2006, Senator Lieberman was elected to a fourth term as an Independent, because of the strength of his record and his accomplishments for the state. He won the general election by more than 100,000 votes. He remains committed to caucusing with Senate Democrats, but will be identified as an Independent Democrat (ID-CT).]
Joe Lieberman is a great man as democrats / independents go. =]No doubt about that. That was one apparent McCain trial balloon.
There’s also Tom Ridge [that’s the one who Mark Levin talked about mostly].
“McCain has a base to alarm?”
A very fragile base.
“It is the choice of each and every individual who has an abortion that makes it a lethal atrocity.”
What if someone chooses to take your house from you and the Supreme Court goes along with it? Roe=Kelo.
It's a nose-holding, regurgitation-suppressing, reluctant-voter "base" at present. McCain's picking a pro-abort VP would send it in search of pencils to write in alternatives to him and Obama.
Here's another piece of the puzzle. Sadly the author recently went insane.
I can't stomach Obabaroozi, but I want McCain to pick a decent VP, or I might just avoid the hangover all together.
Powell? Colin Powell?
Big mistake if that happens.
In short... we will not win the world except we do it one soul at a time.
If we don’t turn the hearts of our children (and actually birth children) this country is lost, as with any civilization who forgot that single important point.
Muslims (and other groups including Russia, for that matter) understand this all too well, and procreate with that in mind.
It’s a shame more “conservative’s” don’t get it... a cryin’ shame.
If he picks a pro-abort VP, you and your spouse have a glass of wine with a leisurely dinner, watch a movie instead of election returns, retire early, and take a long walk the next morning instead of turning on the computer/TV.
Nonstatist was right. I am already on bert’ list....can I be on his list AND get one of them ugly little buttons?
[... The Supreme Court overreached by imposing its will over the states...]
Thank you for taking the time to reflect on my post.
It is extremely helpful as some of my ideas come from
strong emotion. As I massage this piece, “overreached”
and “Natural Law” are terms I’ll embrace for the sake
Mr. Antoninus accuses me of advocating anarchy. But
I say the Supreme Court’s decision to legalize murder
of the unborn is anarchy. Just look around and reflect
back from 1975 to now. Does society look organized?
Civilized? Informed? Evolved? I say NO! It doesn’t
take a cultural analyst or a Social Engineer to recognize
that our culture is in serious decline.
To protect civilization, we must practice and teach
God’s law from the home then (because God is faithful
when we obey His Word), that law will naturally flow
out and “correct” the culture.
John Nesbitt’s “Megtrends” makes the point that
lasting and genuine trends start from the bottom
(the home or the street). Synthetic fads start
from the top (advertising or government), and do
Goverment is our friend when it sticks to the business
of providing infrastructure and protecting EVERY citizen.
We are well past that now. This old ship won’t turn
without a moral, Godly rudder. We won’t find that rudder
in our courts or in our houses of Government. That moral
rudder is in the houses of the people and cannot be
legislated from us. So... we are without excuse.
For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst
weave me in my mothers womb. I will give thanks to
Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfuly made.... (snip) ...
Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance...
The Constitution doesn't just protect citizens. It protects all PERSONS.
Even Judge Blackmun, the author of Roe, recognized such when in the body of the decision he admitted that if the unborn were persons they were protected by the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment.
And that means on every square inch of American soil.
God bless you, Gordon.
Thanks for hanging in with me as I “learn” to express what I believe.