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Are Three Olympic Gymnasts Products of China’s Culture of Cheating?
TeachAbroadChina.com ^ | 8/15/2008 | Robert Vance

Posted on 08/14/2008 9:10:19 PM PDT by robertvance

We should not be surprised to hear that three of China’s women gymnasts are not actually old enough to be participating in the 2008 Olympics. After all, the Chinese are good at cheating and they will tell you so unabashedly. Some months ago, I wrote an article entitled Cheating in China — It's an Epidemic in which I explained how cheating is viewed as a way to survive in China. I have had dozens of Chinese students and adults alike tell me that they have cheated often and that they will cheat again if it means that they could 'get ahead' in life. Quite simply, cheating is a part of the culture here and this fact has been confirmed by many of my Chinese students and friends...

(Excerpt) Read more at teachabroadchina.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2008olympics; china
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Looks like China is at it again...more deception...should we be suprised? Not really...
1 posted on 08/14/2008 9:10:20 PM PDT by robertvance
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To: robertvance

>Quite simply, cheating is a part of the culture here and this fact has been confirmed by many of my Chinese students and friends...<

Pfft! Child’s play. Democrats wrote the book on cheating. Try using dead people’s names to get more votes.


2 posted on 08/14/2008 9:13:09 PM PDT by max americana
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To: robertvance

Not only because they are communists, totally devoid of ethics, morals, honor and self-respect, but it is really part of the culture of Asia. Cheating, lying, and corruption are built in.


3 posted on 08/14/2008 9:13:39 PM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: robertvance
When 13 year old Chinese girls beat 18 year old American women, I am not worried about cheating Chinese. I am really worried that young American women could not out perform girls. Doesn’t experience and a more mature body give the woman an advantage. It would seem so in just about every other sport. I personally think some of the sour grape complaints I've heard reflect on a lack of strategy making on the American coaches. They had four years to see this coming.
4 posted on 08/14/2008 9:18:48 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

The rules are the rules


5 posted on 08/14/2008 9:25:06 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

Actually, in “women’s” gymnastics (as in practically no other sport), the peak physical form is 12-15. As for the investigation, it will happen, but not while the games are going on in China. The IOC will not embarrass the ChiComs that way. Within 90 days of the end of the Olympics, look for stirrings on this topic when the IOC is safely back in Geneva and the flame of Bejing has been safely extinguished.
Relax...it will happen.


6 posted on 08/14/2008 9:30:16 PM PDT by johnnycap
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
"and a more mature body give the woman an advantage".

In women's gymnastics, no.

The US coaches had 4 years to get girls 16 and older ready.

The Chinese coaches had 4 years to get girls of any age ready.

7 posted on 08/14/2008 9:31:58 PM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: Blogger; LoneRangerMassachusetts
The rules are the rules

...because the intense training regimen is child abuse for the preteen girls. Most will not make it to competition level. Despotic governments who view people as property will think nothing of forcing preteen girls to sacrifice all of their short lives and normal development (think education, friends, family life) to the altar of gold. The age limit is intended to prevent the horrors of the past.

8 posted on 08/14/2008 9:35:13 PM PDT by no-s
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

“Doesn’t experience and a more mature body give the woman an advantage”

Have you seen 18 year-old gymnasts? Do they look like normal 18 year-olds to you?


9 posted on 08/14/2008 9:47:39 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: johnnycap; LoneRangerMassachusetts; Tublecane

IMO that’s what makes Girl’s (women need not compete)Gymnastics a sick sport.


10 posted on 08/14/2008 9:49:06 PM PDT by dervish (I looked into Putin's actions and saw evil)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
You must have missed Bela Karolyi's comments. He worked with those little girls for decades. He said it's all fun to them, they don't feel pressure at that age. As the girls get older, they begin to feel pressure.

On top of that, yesterday on the Today show, the American girl who choked said that there was a delay as she prepared to mount the bar. She looked up at the score board, and her name wasn't on it.

That is similar to a batter calling a timeout in the middle of a pitcher's windup.

If you think that was an accident, rather than further Chicom treachery, meet me at Lake Havasu, because I've got a really nice, stately old bridge to sell ya.

11 posted on 08/14/2008 10:05:06 PM PDT by FlyVet
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

Might want to modify your comments - American women just took gold and silver in indiv. gymnasts. Chinese baby girl in 3rd


12 posted on 08/14/2008 10:18:38 PM PDT by over3Owithabrain
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To: over3Owithabrain

The judges sure tried to give it to the Chinese girl, but even in the end, it was too obvious that the American girls were far too superior.


13 posted on 08/14/2008 10:20:25 PM PDT by dfwgator ( This tag blank until football season.)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

A child has better power to weight ratio and the have more flexibility.


14 posted on 08/14/2008 10:22:19 PM PDT by biff
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To: no-s
China is the worst. Any girl that displays any serious talent at tumbling is removed from their homes as young as 3, (and remember that China has a one child per family policy so this is especially heartbreaking), and placed in gymnastic academies.

They are allowed one day a year to visit with their parents. All the while being told this is all happening because its for the greater good of the communist state.

They are forced to train 7 days a week, 8 to 12 hours a day. All schooling takes place there as well. Under this system, the majority of the females will be peaking at 10 to 14 year old. The ones that survived all this. The many that end up sustaining career ending injuries or weren't up to gold medal standards are then tossed back to their parents.

The IFG has placed the age of olympic competition at turning 16 the year of the games to try to stop this type of abuse.

But the Chinese go right on doing it their way because they continue to place underage girls in the worlds and olympics competitions with fake passports.

I cannot think of a better example of the way that people become nothing but slaves under communism. Pure evil.

15 posted on 08/14/2008 10:25:18 PM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

It’s actually harder for an older more mature girl than a younger girl.


16 posted on 08/14/2008 10:27:26 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

“Doesn’t experience and a more mature body give the woman an advantage.”

Possibly not. The weight distribution is different for a more mature female and that is not a help for some gymnastic moves - or so I have been told.


17 posted on 08/14/2008 10:27:27 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: over3Owithabrain

Yes!!! The judges have been hacking the US scores in every gymnastics event so far, but great to see the US girls were able to persevere against the cheating Chinese.
USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!


18 posted on 08/14/2008 10:32:10 PM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: Proud_USA_Republican

I couldn’t believe the scores they were giving the two Chinese girls tonight, who had obvious flaws in their routines. I’m glad to see that the true athletes came out on top though.


19 posted on 08/14/2008 10:36:53 PM PDT by mass55th
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To: johnnycap

There might be an investigation, but nothing would come out of it. For cheating at this magnitude to occur (not that there is any concrete evidence of it currently), it could only be pulled off by someone at the upper echelon of the party. And, that guy will definitely not allow any meaningful investigation to happen.

What will happen is the IOC will implement a system to check the age of the athletes in the future or get rid of the age limit. They did it with the gymnastic score disaster of 2004 Olympics by changing the scoring system, and they will do it here too.


20 posted on 08/14/2008 10:39:09 PM PDT by Fishing-guy
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To: robertvance

Another thing is that younger kids are more flexible, and smaller with a lower center of gravity, advantages when doing somersaults on the balance beam and tumbling on floor exercises and some other moves.

And experience is probably not that much of a factor for kids who started training around four or five. If they’re 12,14, 16 or 18, they’ve still had eight or more years of training and several years experience in competition, plenty of time for the talented ones to learn some competitive routines.


21 posted on 08/14/2008 10:40:39 PM PDT by Will88 (.)
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To: robertvance

I know a seminary professor who a couple times a year flies to Ukraine to teach seminary classes to pastors there.

He has to be very careful during exams, as the students routinely and openly compare each others’ answers, openly discussing things during the tests....unless he lays down the law, and keeps them separated.

They explain that “We from socialist country and we cooperate for to give answers!” The whole concept of cheating as bad is almost entirely absent—and this is among PASTORS!


22 posted on 08/14/2008 10:49:16 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: robertvance

well look at the chinese swimmer Liu Zige who beat the aussie Jessicah Schipper yesterday...

1 year ago the chinese winner was 22nd in the world..yesterday wins and cuts nearly 4 seconds off the world record...and she cut nearly 12 seconds off her own personal best...IN A YEAR

uh huh...

short of having an outboard motor (which from memory is illegal), this is just simply not physically possible...unless of course you have some assistance.

what was amazing and shows the good grace was the aussie girl went up and shook her hand...i guess she has honour and code...


23 posted on 08/14/2008 10:55:33 PM PDT by Irishguy (How do ya LIKE THOSE APPLES!!!!)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

” Doesn’t experience and a more mature body give the woman an advantage.”

In gymnastics? no.

And I speak from experience.
As an 11 yr. old I loved the uneven bars - they seemed easy to me. I was beating the older girls.

When I was 17 and 18 I hated the bars and was getting pounded by the 11 yr. olds.

That is gymnastics.

However - girls do tend to get better at vaulting as they get older - as long as they don’t get to be extremely tall.


24 posted on 08/14/2008 11:17:44 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: robertvance

Stop your griping the girl is 16, here’s the proof.

It’s indisputable..

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6135/bobirthcertificate20chiyd2.jpg


25 posted on 08/14/2008 11:18:09 PM PDT by Wil H
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To: Proud_USA_Republican

whooo hooo!

They tried to cheat our girls all night, and USA hung tough!

I’m dying to know why Nelli Kim was so pi$$ed!
She kept stomping over to that same judge.

Does anyone have any info on this judge? Or why Nelli was in a snit?


26 posted on 08/14/2008 11:22:39 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: over3Owithabrain
Might want to modify your comments - American women just took gold and silver in indiv. gymnasts. Chinese baby girl in 3rd

The US team was favored in the team competition but they were absolutely dreadful. In today's individual all around, they performed the same routines only they actually performed up to expectations and won gold and silver.

Also bolstering your argument is that the best Chinese gymnast in the team finals was a verified 20 year old.

27 posted on 08/14/2008 11:33:10 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: Proud_USA_Republican

“Yes!!! The judges have been hacking the US scores in every gymnastics event so far, but great to see the US girls were able to persevere against the cheating Chinese.”

I agree, but remember that the Chinese athletes have no say in the matter. They haven’t since age three. I fell no bitterness toward them, but rather toward their chicom masters. I actually have some sympathy for the biased judges, too, because they know the misery that will be visited upon these children and their families if the athletes don’t win gold at something.

That said, GO USA! Nastia ans Shawn deserved their medals by being so far superior that even the corrupt system couldn’t take it away from them. All I have to say about that is WOW, just WOW.


28 posted on 08/14/2008 11:36:47 PM PDT by piytar
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To: robertvance

Don’t know if anyone checked up on this, but in China, one is considered already one year old on the day of birth. Are they counting ages based on that paradigm or on the western one?


29 posted on 08/14/2008 11:38:26 PM PDT by harrym
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

“a more mature body give the woman an advantage”

No, it doesn’t.


30 posted on 08/14/2008 11:38:53 PM PDT by piytar
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To: Scotswife

for both sexes, you get stronger and have better technique as you get older, but lose flexibility and enthusiasm, and that seems to be true in all sports.

In today’s all around, you got to see superior technique and strength by the US women beat the flexibility and carefree attitude of the Chinese.

In Tues. team finals, what you saw was the US team act like choking dogs and there is no other way to put it.

Sometimes, you hate to see someone lose. This year Federer/Nadal at Wimbledon and Tiger/Rocco at the US open come to mind.

In the team finals on Tues., I am not sure I want either team to get the gold. The US performances were terrible and if the Chinese have underage performers, I would not want them to win either.


31 posted on 08/14/2008 11:42:08 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: dervish

Agreed. The pedeophilic undertones are hard to bear. That said, I watched most of the competitions because I wanted to see the products of a free nation (our athletes and their coaches, both of whom have naturalized from slave-state communist nations) succeed. And they did.


32 posted on 08/14/2008 11:43:01 PM PDT by piytar
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To: staytrue

“The US team was favored in the team competition but they were absolutely dreadful.”

Absolutely?
no - I don’t agree there..
We had one girl make 2 big mistakes. But then again - the Chinese made mistakes too.

“In today’s individual all around, they performed the same routines only they actually performed up to expectations and won gold and silver.”

Nastia performed better - especially on her landings.
Notice how the scores didn’t reflect that very well?
Shawn performed about the same on bars and vault, a little worse on beam, and much better on floor.

“Also bolstering your argument is that the best Chinese gymnast in the team finals was a verified 20 year old.”

The “best”??....no - don’t agree there either.
She was not part of the bars lineup that put China ahead by over a point.
She was not one of the all arounders competing tonight.


33 posted on 08/14/2008 11:45:49 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: piytar

I would think that the older, bigger, and stronger physically a girl gets in gymnastics, it could produce some negative consequences also. Two or three of our girls’ performances on the mat ended with them stepping out of bounds. They build up so much speed and being bigger, momentum, that it seems they could much more easily go out of bounds. A smaller, younger, feather-lite little Chinese girl would have to work very hard to go out of bounds. That is just one thing that I noticed.


34 posted on 08/14/2008 11:49:45 PM PDT by flaglady47 (South Ossetia = Kosovo - thanks Bill Clinton)
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To: Wil H

YOU WOO FLUNG DUNG


35 posted on 08/14/2008 11:50:13 PM PDT by stlnative (There is no room for B.O. in our White House !)
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To: staytrue

“for both sexes, you get stronger and have better technique as you get older, but lose flexibility and enthusiasm, and that seems to be true in all sports.”

You are talking to someone who lived and breathed this for many years - and I’m telling you it is different in gymnastics.
I was once the 11 yr. old kid swinging bars and beating much older girls.
Then I became an older girl who hated bars and was getting my a$$ handed to me by the little tykes.
Everyone who has participated in the sport knows this.

“In today’s all around, you got to see superior technique and strength by the US women beat the flexibility and carefree attitude of the Chinese.”

What you saw tonight was a different format where 2 top gymnasts from each team HAD to perform on all four events.
The team competition format favored the Chinese because they put underage tiny girls up on bars.
That is the event that blew everyone away.
They put their older girl up on the other events, because often it does not pay to be little on vaulting and tumbling.
The little ones do not dance as well either.

Our girls are better all-arounders.

“In Tues. team finals, what you saw was the US team act like choking dogs and there is no other way to put it.”

You saw one girl make 2 mistakes. The Chinese also made mistakes.
You also saw screwy scoring - and there was screwy scoring again tonight - but our girls hung tough, and something was up with the head judge (Nelli Kim)
Can’t wait to see if that story manages to leak out somehow.


36 posted on 08/14/2008 11:52:42 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: flaglady47

Yup, not much else to say but “I agree.”

Actually have been wondering if the chicoms made the mats on the floor exercise a little “bouncier” in order to help out their “feather-lite” athletes. Would explain some of the out-of-bounds mistakes that happened in the team comp, and then the Americans adjusted to clinch gold and silver in the later individuals (which if true is just frankly unfreaking amazing).


37 posted on 08/15/2008 12:00:43 AM PDT by piytar
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To: robertvance
In 2001, I was sent to China on business. Before leaving, I sat through a one hour Chinese cultural class my company provided to prevent us from unwittingly pulling a social faux pas while there.

The Chinese man who gave the class told us point blank that deception is part of the culture and that the Chinese thought Americans were strange because we were so forthright and open.

38 posted on 08/15/2008 12:03:29 AM PDT by Allegra (Goodness me, goodness me, industrial disease...)
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To: Scotswife
“something was up with the head judge (Nelli Kim)
Can’t wait to see if that story manages to leak out somehow.”

Me too. Clearly something was going on, just couldn't figure out what. Would be nice to find out, but we probably will never be informed what was happening.

39 posted on 08/15/2008 12:05:36 AM PDT by piytar
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To: Allegra

When I took an international relations course in college they told us it is very difficult for women to conduct business in China as it was common to drink heavily and go to strip bars after the business meetings.


40 posted on 08/15/2008 12:05:49 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: piytar

“Me too. Clearly something was going on, just couldn’t figure out what. Would be nice to find out, but we probably will never be informed what was happening.”

I’ve been searching gymnastics forums but haven’t found anything yet.
My old coach will know the scoop, but I won’t see him for a couple of weeks.


41 posted on 08/15/2008 12:07:23 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

Ok so you want to tell me that most if not all world class women gymnasts are better at 11 than at 16 and are better at 16 than at 20.

I know you won’t say that because there are plenty of counter examples.

I will say that some are better younger and some are better when they get older.

And you know that is true.

And I don’t understand this age limit anyway. US swimmer Donna de Varonna was 13 when she made the US olympic team, 14 year old Michelle Kwan was going to skate until Tonya Harding got reinstated, and of course Nadia performed for Karoli at age 14.


42 posted on 08/15/2008 12:09:06 AM PDT by staytrue
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To: Scotswife
When I took an international relations course in college they told us it is very difficult for women to conduct business in China as it was common to drink heavily and go to strip bars after the business meetings.

I found that to be the case with Japanese. I worked with some of them in the 90s.

When I was in China, our hosts didn't drink much at all and they had these banquets for us just about every night we were there. The Chinese were very polite but I didn't find them warm. However, as hosts, they saw to our every need and desire and made our visit there as pleasant as they possibly could.

But in our business relations, I did see how deception was just a part of it all and that telling a lie did not seem to be considered a particularly bad thing.

43 posted on 08/15/2008 12:18:16 AM PDT by Allegra (Goodness me, goodness me, industrial disease...)
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To: staytrue

“Ok so you want to tell me that most if not all world class women gymnasts are better at 11 than at 16 and are better at 16 than at 20.”

As everyone matures at different ages I cannot pinpoint the exact year of puberty for everyone, so I have to say this is not what I’m trying to tell you.

I will tell you that when you are specifically talking about bars - the younger you are the easier it is.
Nastia is amazing because she has managed to retain her skill level on bars through the years.
But if you were to ask her when was bars the easiest for her? My bet is it was much easier for her prior to puberty.
In general - it is an advantage to compete on bars prior to puberty.

Being little can be a bit of an advantage on beam (smaller feet) - but not as much as bars.
Most girls tend to get better at vault as they get older (up until their joints start to fall apart).

So - when you have a format where girls can specialize in events (not having to compete on all 4) the Chinese strategy was quite brilliant...they pulled ahead by a full point on bars with their strategy.
Too bad they didn’t play within the rules of the game.

“And I don’t understand this age limit anyway. US swimmer Donna de Varonna was 13 when she made the US olympic team, 14 year old Michelle Kwan was going to skate until Tonya Harding got reinstated, and of course Nadia performed for Karoli at age 14”

well - the biggest problem is that only the honest countries will abide by the rules.
If we were to use the same strategy we would have brought a different team - certainly a different bars lineup.


44 posted on 08/15/2008 12:18:47 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Tublecane
Have you seen 18 year-old gymnasts? Do they look like normal 18 year-olds to you?

I can't speak for all 18 yo gymnasts, but have you seen Nastia Liukin? She's 18 and gorgeous.
45 posted on 08/15/2008 12:43:58 AM PDT by ChocChipCookie (Homeschool like your kids' lives depend on it.)
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To: Will88

older girls also have the problem of growing tall, and the onset of their womaness, which changes their body, widens the hips, not to mention pms, and does change center of gravity

maybe some of the younger 16 year-olds haven’t had their onset of womanliness, but for sure the 18 year-olds have


46 posted on 08/15/2008 1:03:47 AM PDT by machogirl
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To: Wil H

LOL


47 posted on 08/15/2008 1:04:12 AM PDT by machogirl
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To: Scotswife

Something has reaked to high heaven with the judging at these games. The US girls had to do flawless floor routines to make up for all the hacking the judges did to them in the other events. Luckily, they did.
They have been hacking the US and other teams left and right, while china gymnists are doing mistakes that would cause deductions, but score as if they never happened.
This farce is just unreal.


48 posted on 08/15/2008 1:18:59 AM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: staytrue

“Also bolstering your argument is that the best Chinese gymnast in the team finals was a verified 20 year old.”

Which means in reality, not chinese gymnist arithmetic, she’s 17.


49 posted on 08/15/2008 1:25:38 AM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

The younger kids literally know no fear. I remember when I was in the under 15 year age group. Gymnastics is still a game to those girls, and they lack the fear of failure or injury that develops later. Their bodies absorb shock much better and falling doesn’t hurt as much.
But we still took 1st and 2nd. When I watched them on the medals stand I couldn’t help but notice the difference in their physical development. I don’t think the little Chinese girl was over 11 or 12 years old.


50 posted on 08/15/2008 2:32:49 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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