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Biden's Catholic faith offers risks, rewards
AP ^ | 8-24-08

Posted on 08/24/2008 11:23:08 AM PDT by Darren McCarty

DENVER - When Joe Biden underwent brain surgery for a life-threatening aneurysm in 1988, he asked doctors whether he could tuck his rosary beads under his pillow. The six-term Democratic senator from Delaware also has offered to shove his rosary down the throat of the next Republican who tells him he isn't religious.

Biden's selection as Obama's running mate immediately touched off new scrutiny of his support for abortion rights, a position in conflict with a fundamental teaching of his church.

One outspoken prelate, Denver Catholic Archbishop Charles Chaput, said in statement to The Associated Press that Biden should refrain from taking Communion because of his stance.

........ By selecting a Pennsylvania-born Catholic as his No. 2, Obama is betting the potential rewards — including swaying elusive lunch-pail Catholics in the Midwest — outweigh the risks.

.....

Other Catholics were even more forceful in their criticism. The Catholic advocacy group Fidelis called the choice of Biden a "slap in the face" to Catholic voters and predicted the Communion question will hover over Biden at each campaign stop.

...Biden is well suited to fight back, said Mara Vanderslice, Kerry's former director of religious outreach. Biden made that clear in 2005 when, quoted in the Cincinnati Enquirer, he said: "The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat."

"He's this scrappy Irish Catholic and he has a long and powerful record of speaking his mind," said Vanderslice, who now heads a political action committee that has aired pro-Obama ads on Christian radio. "I don't think he's going to take any attacks sitting down."

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Politics/Elections; US: Delaware
KEYWORDS: abortion; biden; bidenandgod; catholic; catholicpoliticians; catholicvote
"The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat."

From a working class Irish Catholic to an east coast Irish (Biden doesn't sound like an Irish name either - It may be, but it's no McCarty) "Catholic" - You can't be a real Catholic and pro-abortion. Try and shove those beads down my throat, boy, and I'll shut your big mouth for six weeks.

As far as Doug Kmiec goes, what the HELL happened to him?

1 posted on 08/24/2008 11:23:08 AM PDT by Darren McCarty
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To: Darren McCarty
I'm not a Catholic but the priest at the only church over in town tells me that anyone who supports abortion should be excommunicated.
2 posted on 08/24/2008 11:28:04 AM PDT by OKIEDOC (OBAMA aka Post Turtle the Forest Gump of American Politics ABORTION -Liberal Child Abuse.)
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To: OKIEDOC
I'm not a Catholic but the priest at the only church over in town tells me that anyone who supports abortion should be excommunicated.

The priest is absolutely right. But the bishops don't support it because they want to be politically correct. And they're terrified of the money drying up.

3 posted on 08/24/2008 11:32:00 AM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: OKIEDOC
They keep saying that, but the Catholic Church never does.

No Church discipline there.

4 posted on 08/24/2008 11:33:47 AM PDT by Coldwater Creek
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To: Darren McCarty

Madonna has rosary beads too.
Lots of so called “catholics” have them as little trinkets - or they have sentimental value.

Catholics who actually pay attention to the message of the rosary - and to the teachings of the church - are strongly pro-life.

That is why rosaries are a common sight at pro-life marchers and hateful pro-deathers will yell “get your rosaries off my ovaries!”

pro-deathers are repelled by the sight of rosaries like a crucifix to a vampire.


5 posted on 08/24/2008 11:35:36 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Darren McCarty
"The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat."

The question is not whether Senator Joe Biden is religious. Clearly he is religious. The question is what religion does he practice? If he willingly and knowingly supports the murder of unborn children, then he is not a practicing Catholic, because murder is a mortal sin. If he is using some kind of warped and twisted logic to weasel his way out of his responsibility to obey the Commandments of God, then he is a heretic. Are the clergy in the hierarchy worried about losing income? If yes, they need to take a time out to think about what they are doing to themselves and their flock, IMHO.

6 posted on 08/24/2008 11:37:31 AM PDT by olezip
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To: Darren McCarty

Hey Joe, you’re not religious and further more, you’re not Catholic either. Contact me and I’ll give you my address so you can try and shove your rosary down my throat.


7 posted on 08/24/2008 11:44:40 AM PDT by anoldafvet (Barack Obama, the "Pet Rock" of the 21st Century.)
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To: buccaneer81
It's always follow the money.
8 posted on 08/24/2008 11:50:47 AM PDT by OKIEDOC (OBAMA aka Post Turtle the Forest Gump of American Politics ABORTION -Liberal Child Abuse.)
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To: Coldwater Creek
The church needs to stand firm and get some cajoles.
9 posted on 08/24/2008 11:51:34 AM PDT by OKIEDOC (OBAMA aka Post Turtle the Forest Gump of American Politics ABORTION -Liberal Child Abuse.)
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To: OKIEDOC
Either that, or just shut up and let the infidels do as they please.
10 posted on 08/24/2008 11:52:51 AM PDT by Coldwater Creek
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To: Darren McCarty

A catholic? How could he be a catholic and support abortion?

Actually, I don’t think he is religious -— and, yes, I’m willing to say that to his face.


11 posted on 08/24/2008 11:54:26 AM PDT by sailor4321
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To: Darren McCarty

Okay, Catholics, help out a Protestant on this issue. Isn’t there something in Catholic doctrine that says that if you support abortion, you have excommunicated yourself?


12 posted on 08/24/2008 12:02:35 PM PDT by yawningotter
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To: Coldwater Creek

Well, actually, if they are seriously complicit with abortion, as Biden certainly is, then they are automatically excommunicated. There just isn’t a public announcement of the fact. And if they then go to communion in a state of mortal sin, they are “eating and drinking damnation to themselves,” as the Anglican Book of Common Prayer used to warn.

Rosary beads or not, his soul is in serious danger if he doesn’t repent and confess and amend his life.

As good bishops like Chaput point out, you aren’t doing these guys a favor if you don’t make it very clear to them that they are putting themselves in danger of damnation. I think most of them know it, in fact, but maybe figure they’ll be given time to repent after they retire from office. Good luck with that.


13 posted on 08/24/2008 12:06:48 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: yawningotter

Yes. See #13.


14 posted on 08/24/2008 12:07:24 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero
I understand that Biden attended his church this very morning.....
15 posted on 08/24/2008 12:15:40 PM PDT by Coldwater Creek
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To: Darren McCarty; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

16 posted on 08/24/2008 12:18:04 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: yawningotter
Okay, Catholics, help out a Protestant on this issue. Isn’t there something in Catholic doctrine that says that if you support abortion, you have excommunicated yourself?

Catholic Planet

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Catholic Christian Article


Abortion and Excommunication
May 20, 2004

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon Law and Church Teaching

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” means a judgment or sentence which has already been brought, in other words, a sentence or judgment which does not need a future additional judgment from someone in authority; it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the future particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: “Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.”

Obtaining an Abortion

Any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly obtains a procured abortion commits a mortal sin and is also automatically excommunicated, under canon 1398.

Under the laws of secular society, if one person commits a crime, then anyone who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for that person to commit that crime is called an accessory to that crime and is also subject to the penalties of law. Similarly, any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for any woman to procure an abortion also commits a mortal sin and also incurs the same sentence of excommunication.

Any Catholic who substantially assists another in the deliberate sin of abortion is also guilty of serious sin and also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Believing in Abortion

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral commits the sin of heresy. The sin of heresy also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Unfortunately, some Catholics obstinately deny that abortion is always immoral, and some Catholics claim that abortion can, at times, be a morally-acceptable choice, and some Catholics claim that a person can, in good conscience, choose abortion. Under the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church, canons 751 and 1364, all such Catholics are automatically excommunicated for the sin of heresy.

This sentence of latae sententiae excommunication applies to any Catholic who denies that abortion is gravely immoral, regardless of whether they keep this denial hidden or publicly reveal it.

Promoting Abortion

Those Catholics who publicly announce their denial that abortion is always gravely immoral, or who publicly promote abortion, or who publicly argue in favor of legalized abortion, also commit a mortal sin and also incur a sentence of automatic excommunication.

This sentence of excommunication applies to Catholics who are politicians, as well as to those Catholics who are political commentators, or public speakers, or who write or otherwise publicly communicate their erroneous view that abortion can be morally-acceptable or that abortion should be legal. This sentence of excommunication also certainly applies to those Catholics who claim to be theologians or Biblical scholars, but who believe or teach that abortion is not always gravely immoral.

Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).

Voting for Abortion

Any Catholic politician who casts a vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion, commits a mortal sin.

When such a vote indicates that the Catholic politician believes that abortion is not always gravely immoral, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canons 751 and 1364, because of heresy.

When such a vote is intended to have the effect of making abortion legal, or more easily obtainable, or more widely available, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canon 1398, as someone who is attempting to provide substantial or essential means for women to obtain abortions. Catholic politicians who pass laws which legalize, protect, or widen access to abortion, are providing essential assistance to women who want to obtain abortions.

It is not sufficient for Catholic politicians to claim that they are “personally opposed” to abortion. If any Catholic politician favors legalized abortion, despite a claim of personal opposition, such a politician commits a mortal sin by promoting abortion and by voting in favor of abortion.

The same is true for any Catholic who casts any vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion. Such a voter commits a mortal sin and incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication for two reasons. First, they are committing the sin of heresy by believing that abortion should be legal and available. Second, they are committing the grievous sin of providing women with substantial or essential assistance in obtaining abortions, by attempting to legalize or broaden access to abortion.

However, if, for a period of time, Catholic politicians and voters are unable to enact a law prohibiting all abortion, then Catholic politicians and voters may in good conscience vote for whichever law offers the greatest restrictions and limits on abortion. Subsequently, Catholic politicians and voters are required by the moral law to continue to enact further restrictions and limits on abortion, to the greatest extent possible, and, at every possible opportunity, to vote for laws which completely outlaw abortion.

Voting for Politicians

In general, the moral law requires Catholic voters to vote for those candidates who oppose abortion over those who favor abortion. However, there are exceptions to this general principle. For example, if a political candidate favors abortion, but is a member of a party which generally opposes abortion, a Catholic voter may, in good conscience, vote for that candidate, with the intention of giving more political power to the party which opposes abortion.

In another case, a Catholic voter might, in good conscience, vote for a pro-abortion candidate, if the political office would offer no opportunity for the elected candidate to vote for or against abortion. Even so, every Catholic voter should consider that anyone who supports abortion, as if it were a woman’s right, or as if it could ever be a moral choice, must necessarily be someone who has a seriously limited understanding of morality and justice. Such a person would not often be the better candidate for any office in place of one who understands that abortion is gravely immoral.

In every case, a Catholic should vote in such a way as to obtain as many restrictions on abortion as possible, and so as to obtain the end to legalized abortion as soon as possible.

Constitutional Amendment

Within any constitutional form of government, it would be ideal to have a constitutional clause or amendment which permanently and completely outlaws all procured abortions. Such an amendment must ban all abortions, regardless of circumstance, so that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent prenatal human being will be always contrary to human law, just as it is always contrary to the moral law.

A constitutional amendment can permit certain medical procedures, which are absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother, and which indirectly result in the unintended and unsought death of the prenatal, only if there is no possible way to save the life of the prenatal. A prenatal is defined as any human being from conception to birth. Every reasonable effort should be made to save the lives of both mother and prenatal. If the life of the prenatal can be saved by no other possible option than by risking or allowing the death of the mother, then the prenatal must be saved.

Catholic teaching clearly allows for certain medical procedures, which indirectly and involuntarily result in the death of the prenatal, to save the life of the mother, but only when all options to save the life of the prenatal have been exhausted. Such a procedure is not an abortion and is not an exception wherein abortion is allowed.

On the other hand, a constitutional amendment which bans abortion with exceptions for various cases, such as rape, incest, or a risk to the mother’s life, would be worse than having no such amendment at all.

Any woman who is willing to commit the sin of abortion, would also be willing to lie. If a constitutional amendment permitted abortion in cases of rape, then any woman willing to lie and to falsely claim that she was raped, would be able to also claim that she had a constitutional right to an abortion. The result would be that a constitutional amendment, which seems to ban abortion with some exceptions, would end up giving every woman who is willing to tell a lie, a purported constitutional right to abortion. This situation would be worse than having no such constitutional amendment at all.

Therefore, the only acceptable pro-life constitutional amendment would be one that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, bans all procured abortions without exception.

Here is an example of a just constitutional amendment protecting human life.


--- by Ronald L. Conte Jr.




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17 posted on 08/24/2008 12:20:30 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: Darren McCarty
"As far as Doug Kmiec goes, what the HELL happened to him?"

He sold out. I'm just curious as to the price.

If you had a job where you had to openly support murder and sinful behavior would you stay in that job? Biden does.

If he believes that abortion is murder, as does the Church, and he continues to protect it as a "right", that doesn't say much for his moral compass.

18 posted on 08/24/2008 12:23:53 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck)
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To: yawningotter
Okay, Catholics, help out a Protestant on this issue. Isn’t there something in Catholic doctrine that says that if you support abortion, you have excommunicated yourself?

Yes. It's murder of a child. That's the view the Church has of abortion. It's against the 10 Commandments.

And politicians who endorse abortion were called out on it due to their failure to protect the unborn.

There's several documents from the Church on this. From 1974

From Catechism (2003), and referring to the 5th Commandment

2318 "In [God's] hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind" (⇒ Job 12:10).

2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 # 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. the Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

2323 Because it should be treated as a person from conception, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed like every other human being.

2324 Intentional euthanasia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.

2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.

2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin.

2327 Because of the evils and injustices that all war brings with it, we must do everything reasonably possible to avoid it. the Church prays: "From famine, pestilence, and war, O Lord, deliver us."

2328 The Church and human reason assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflicts. Practices deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes.

2329 "The arms race is one of the greatest curses on the human race and the harm it inflicts on the poor is more than can be endured" (GS 81 # 3).

2330 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" (⇒ Mt 5:9).

19 posted on 08/24/2008 12:29:14 PM PDT by Darren McCarty (Obama "You sell your oldest friends. You sold your countrymen. And yet we know your name. Traitor!")
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To: Darren McCarty
There's no such thing as a Catholic who is pro abortion.All individuals who claim to belong to this group are,in fact,Unitarian/Universalists.
20 posted on 08/24/2008 12:34:45 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Obama:"Ich bin ein beginner")
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To: Scotswife
Catholics who actually pay attention to the message of the rosary - and to the teachings of the church - are strongly pro-life.

AMEN!

21 posted on 08/24/2008 12:43:33 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Darren McCarty

Since one of the marks of a true church is the right administration of church discipline, it’s pretty obvious that the Roman Catholic church doesn’t qualify as a ‘true church’.


22 posted on 08/24/2008 12:43:45 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Darren McCarty
I guess maybe Obama thought that bringing Biden on would shore up the Catholic vote for him. Clearly, he doesn't understand the 'Catholic vote'.

Biden is like many 'Cultural Catholics'. They like the trappings of Catholicism, but don't pay too much attention to the TEACHINGS of Catholicism, particularly on the sexual issues. They like to ignore the sexual morality issues in favor of the 'Social Justice' issues, because those issues are very public, and they can be seen to be doing or supporting good works.

23 posted on 08/24/2008 12:46:10 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Darren McCarty

Catholics will not vote for Biden because he is ‘Catholic’ for the same reason African Americans wouldn’t support McCain if he put on blackface.


24 posted on 08/24/2008 12:47:17 PM PDT by mbraynard (You are the Republican Party. See you at the precinct meeting.)
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To: Darren McCarty
As far as Doug Kmiec goes, what the HELL happened to him?

It's possible that he's in the anti Iraq War crowd, so that's why he doesn't like the Republicans, but favors the Democrats who say the war is wrong, and that they want the troops out.

25 posted on 08/24/2008 12:49:40 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: OKIEDOC

How about Catholics who vote for a pro-choice candidate? Should they be excommunicated? I am curious because I have a close relative who is “very” Catholic, yet is voting for Obama.


26 posted on 08/24/2008 1:01:08 PM PDT by EnquiringMind
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To: EnquiringMind

Ooops, please disregard my last post....I see my answer. FR is terrific!


27 posted on 08/24/2008 1:03:27 PM PDT by EnquiringMind
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To: anoldafvet

“Hey Joe, you’re not religious and further more, you’re not Catholic either. Contact me and I’ll give you my address so you can try and shove your rosary down my throat.”

Yep, what anoldafvet said.

mrs


28 posted on 08/24/2008 1:04:01 PM PDT by proudmilitarymrs
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To: EnquiringMind
EnquiringMind wrote:
How about Catholics who vote for a pro-choice candidate? Should they be excommunicated? I am curious because I have a close relative who is “very” Catholic, yet is voting for Obama.

Reply:

I can not answer for those who consider themselves as true Catholics but for me as a Baptist I can not and will not support Abortion in any form.

I also consider that anyone who supports Abortion as not being true followers of Christ.

Further, when on staff of a foreign country Doc was told she had to perform Abortions and she said no.

The Hospital Administrator told her she would suffer the consequences of her actions and she told him “I will not perform Abortions even if it means I have to find another line of work or profession”.

I witnessed my first and last abortion in 1998 and brother no one will ever convince me that Jesus Christ would approve of the gut wrenching horrific procedure or those who support the murder of the unborn.

29 posted on 08/24/2008 1:21:20 PM PDT by OKIEDOC (OBAMA aka Post Turtle the Forest Gump of American Politics ABORTION -Liberal Child Abuse.)
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To: Darren McCarty

“Catholics have been a swing vote for almost 40 years. Polls show white Catholics, who account for nearly one in five U.S. voters, evenly divided between Obama and Republican John McCain. McCain is leading among Catholics in battleground states Ohio and Florida.”

As the co chair of Catholics Against Kerry I will tell you without hesitation that barack mcgovern and abortion joe will NOT break 41% with genuine Catholics. Everytime biden-biden’s Catholic faith comes up it will bring a new opportunity to talk about B-mac’s Born Alive Baby Protection Act problem and THAT is be a huge turn off not only for Cathoics but all right thinking morale Americans.


30 posted on 08/24/2008 2:04:17 PM PDT by jmaroneps37 (Conservatism is truth. Liberalism is lies.)
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To: Darren McCarty
Biden is more risk for Catholics that ANY rewards. God has the rewards for those who follow the faith. "Thou shalt not kill."

Our Lady's Warriors.Dissent>Speakers and Authors

Abortion and Euthanasia

Sen. Joseph Biden (D-DE) Catholic politician who votes for abortion in contradiction to Church teachings. One of American Life League's "Deadly Dozen."

31 posted on 08/24/2008 2:27:04 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: OKIEDOC
That priest is correct.

enter the Table of Contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church here

1: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2271  (618 bytes )  preview document matches
1 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion,
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2271.htm
97%**********

2: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2272  (580 bytes )  preview document matches
2 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2272.htm
96%**********

3: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2322  (290 bytes )  preview document matches
2 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3),
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2322.htm
96%**********

4: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2274  (554 bytes )  preview document matches
gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2274.htm

32 posted on 08/24/2008 2:29:29 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Darren McCarty; antonius

33 posted on 08/24/2008 2:30:02 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Darren McCarty
This issue is getting legs of its own!

Biden's Catholic faith offers risks, rewards
Nancy Pelosi on when life begins (Smarter than Obama?
Obama, Biden, Foreign Policy and the Catholic Vote
The "Abortion Joe" Biden will get his ticket a record low Catholic vote
Obama's Falsehood: The Truth About His Abortion Record

EDITORIAL:Obama Chooses Biden and the Battle for Life is Engaged
Joe Biden Makes It Easier for Catholics to Oppose Pro-Abortion Barack Obama
Obamacide
McCain attacks Obama on pro-abortion stance
Barack Obama's Sole Article in Harvard Law Review Promotes Abortion

Why Obama Really Voted For Infanticide
Obama's Born-Alive Problem
William A. Donohue: Catholic Left Hangs Itself (5/22/08) [Abortion]
"Until they have reformed their lives" ( No Holy Communion for pro-abortion Catholics!)
African American Pro-Life Leader Tells Barack Obama: No We Can't OK Abortion

OBAMA AND INFANTICIDE (Reinhard)
They'd be angry at Obama if he was caught saying the N-word. Supporting Infanticide—Not so much.
In 2002, Barack Obama Supported Infanticide and I've Got the Transcript of His Words
Explosive Audio Found - Obama arguing against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act - Audio
Transcript of Obama's verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor

Explosive Audio Found Obama arguing against BAIPA
Audio Found Obama arguing against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Abortion foes using racism to make point at DNC [Randall Terry / Operation Rescue]
Why Obama couldn't answer Warren's baby question
Smoking gun? Papers expose Obama's 'infanticide' vote

EXTRA: Archbishop Burke on Catholics who Support Abortion
Senator Barack Obama Wants You to Pay for Abortions
US Bishops Look at Election
John McCain Will Not Pick Pro-Abortion Running Mate, Rules Out Tom Ridge
Vote for Real Hope and Change [Archbishop Chaput]
Catholics who support abortion should not receive Communion, says Archbishop Burke (again :-)
CNN Again Omits Part of the Story Concerning Obama’s Abortion Votes

Obama Flunks Rick Warren's Abortion Question
Obama and the Black American Family Don’t Jibe [Abortion]
Obama Caught Red-Handed in Abortion Lie
Archbishop Naumann hopes Obama realizes Sebelius is a bad Catholic advisor
Obama Facing Attacks From All Sides Over Abortion Record

OBAMA'S EXTREMISM - HIS ABORTION RECORD IS NO LIE
Barack Obama - Abortion Extremist
Barack Obama lied about babies ‘Born Alive’ vote then smeared Corsi
Babies' Rights and the Definition of Marriage [re: Forum responses by Obama vs. McCain]
Opinion: Doug Kmiec on McCain v. Obama at Saddleback

Obama Cover-up on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Continues to Unravel...
Life Lies: Barack Obama and Born-Alive
Operation Rescue founder to distribute new flyer: "Is it Immoral to Vote for Obama for President?"
Obama Calls Pro-Lifers Liars
Obama Jun 15: “fathers…at conception” August 16 “answering that question is above my pay grade”

Niece of Martin Luther King Jr. to Lead Prayer Vigil Outside Largest U.S. Abortion Centre
Campaign Admits Obama Lied About Abortion Vote, Media Asleep
Obama “pay grade” comment purposely ignores SCIENTIFIC FACT that LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION
Barack Obama Repeats False Claim Abortions Haven't Declined Under Bush
Obama and Abortion

Obama Says Right to Life Coalition Is Lying About His Record
Barack Obama Says Pro-Life Group Lying About His Pro-Infanticide Votes
Obama's infanticide problem>
Obama and McCain Woo Catholics
Obama's Christian Creds Vs. Abortion and Infanticide

Obama's 10 reasons for supporting infanticide
Mommy Won't Help Dems on Abortion
Abortion Leader Confirms that Democratic Platform is More Pro-Abortion than Ever
Obama More Than An Abortion Radical
Obama’s Abortion Lies (Obama cover-up on born-alive survivors bill)

Life with Obama: Abortion champion
Knighting the Catholic Vote (K of C urging Catholics to vote pro-life)
Linda Chavez: Obama’s Catholic problem
Catholic Voters and 2008
Barack Obama Supports the Murder of Newborn Infants

Obama Lied About Abortion Record
What Barack Obama defended three times: Live Birth Abortion
[OPEN] Supreme K of C Calls for Real "Change" on Abortion and Catholic Revolt against Obama Nation
Obama's Catholic Problem ( Linda Chavez )
Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics ( "May Divide?" )

Obama loses 26 points among Catholics
Barack Obama's Wife Michelle to Join Hillary Clinton at Pro-Abortion Dinner
OPINION: Senator Obama and the Wall of the Womb
Barack Obama's Pledge to Overturn Every Pro-Life Abortion Law One Year Old
Obama Worse than Clintons on Abortion Says National Right to Life Leader Interview-SCOTUS Critical

Roman Catholics for Obama '08
OBAMA TO CATHOLICS: NO VOUCHERS
How can Catholics for Obama rationalize their support for the pro-choice candidate?
Obama’s director of Catholic Outreach ‘dodges’ opportunity to reach Catholics
Barack Obama Slams John McCain For Opposing Abortion, Activist Judges

Catholics and Obama
COMMENTARY: Quandry for Catholics At Election Time
The Latest Refinement (Obama on Abortion)
CNN Runs Biased News Story Covering Up Barack Obama’s Pro-Abortion Record
Jill Stanek: Obama's biggest lie about supporting infanticide
The Battle for Catholic Voters

New Report Indicates Voters Most Interested in Barack Obama’s Position on Abortion
Deal Hudson: Obama and Infanticide?
Ad asks Obama: ‘If fatherhood begins at conception, when does life begin?’
Embryonic stem-cell research immoral, unnecessary, bishops say
Catholics should not vote for Obama
Catholic Caucus: It is a sin to vote/support Obama/DNC [abortion]

More Catholics leaning towards Democrats, poll reports (really not Catholics)
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion....
NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama
Editorial: Disagreeing with Doug Kmiec One More Time
State-Funded Embryo Research "Makes Taxpayers Complicit in Killing", say Bishops

McCain Meets Privately with Fr. Pavone - Says Constitutional Right to Life Applies to Unborn
Faithful Citizenship: “Catholic Vote” is very sought after
Has Obama dissolved his Catholic advisory council?
Commentary: Faithful Citizenship and the Formed Conscience
Catholic League: Where's Obama's 'Catholic Advisory Council'? [Not to be found!]
Right-wing Christians beginning to lean left (Misleading headline)

Catholics Debate Obama Vote
US Bishops Urge Voters to Give Priority to Life [Ecumenical]
Corralling the Catholic vote: Political necessity or pipe dream?
DOUG KMIEC: Catholic Reasons for Hope in the General Election
EDITORIAL: Why This Catholic Dreads the Campaign
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Thoughts On ‘Roman Catholics For Obama’

How Obama's Catholics Will Dodge the Infanticide Question
Catholic Pro-Life Leader Feuds With Barack Obama's "Catholic" Backers
McCain and the Pope: McCain cannot win in November without the Catholic vote (Reagan re-visited?)
Catholics Cannot Vote for Pols Who Support Abortion, Except for Morally Grave Reasons: KY Bishops

34 posted on 08/24/2008 2:31:57 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: yawningotter

Thanks for the replies. That means the Dems have a murtad fitri Muslim and a Catholic who has been excommunicated latae sententiae. Isn’t it amazing what you can learn here!


35 posted on 08/24/2008 2:34:34 PM PDT by yawningotter
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To: PAR35

The four marks of the Catholic Church are

One

Holy

Catholic

Apostolic.

I have no idea where you are getting discipline??? BTW, Bishops ARE denying the Eucharist to pro-aborts.


36 posted on 08/24/2008 2:36:13 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: yawningotter
**** Okay, Catholics, help out a Protestant on this issue. Isn’t there something in Catholic doctrine that says that if you support abortion, you have excommunicated yourself? ***

Yes. And it doesn't only pertain to abortion.

Tere seems to be some misconception that to be excommunicated, in effect, you have to get a formal letter from the Pope.

38 posted on 08/24/2008 2:37:40 PM PDT by Condor51 (I have guns in my nightstand because a Cop won't fit)
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To: Salvation
BTW, Bishops ARE denying the Eucharist to pro-aborts.

How many pro-abortion politicians were turned away when the Bishop of Rome led a Mass in Washington DC?

How many times has Biden been turned away at the altar? Kerry? Pelosi?

39 posted on 08/24/2008 3:15:57 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Condor51
Catholic Doctrine is clear: any Catholic who materially advances the killing of pre-born innocent children excommunicates himself and cuts him/herself off from the Church and its sacraments. Until such time as that person reverses course, repents and changes his or her ways.
In this context, it may be accurate to refer to Biden as an “ex-Catholic”, a “lapsed Catholic” or as someone who was “born Catholic.” But he is not a practicing Catholic now.
Biden’s religion is only for show, in any case. Any person who believes in a Living God who takes an interest in the affairs and conduct of humans could never work to advance the industrial scale, for-profit slaughter of innocent tiny humans. He no more believes in God than Pelosi, Ted Kennedey, Obama or Barbara Boxer do.
40 posted on 08/24/2008 3:17:05 PM PDT by Godwin1 (Godwin)
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To: Darren McCarty

Why hasn’t he been excommunicated for his support of abortion...and Teddy Kennedy too?


41 posted on 08/24/2008 4:26:23 PM PDT by The Great RJ ("Mir we bleiwen wat mir sin" or "We want to remain what we are." ..Luxembourg motto)
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To: EnquiringMind
I am curious because I have a close relative who is “very” Catholic, yet is voting for Obama.

As a Catholic I can't for the life of me understand anyone who would support a pro-choice candidate.

I would assume they are still not very aware of the teachings of the church, or are unwilling to learn as much as they can. That being said excommunicating those who support pro-choice candidates would be a very difficult task. The priest and the officials would have to know the heart of each individual that voted for these pro-choice candidates.

The difference is huge when a pro-choice candidate publicly supports abortion rights and then expects to receive communion at Mass. It creates scandal in the church for the faithful who are following the doctrine of the church. It's a little more messy when you try to pinpoint voters who are more private in their voting actions.

Hope this helps.

42 posted on 08/25/2008 4:14:26 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: Darren McCarty
You can't be a real Catholic and pro-abortion. Try and shove those beads down my throat, boy, and I'll shut your big mouth for six weeks.

I was stunned to see the number of Obama buttons visable at Mass this weekend. (Also the number of bumper stickers in the lot were amazing to me)

Somehow, for some reason, I picture you shoving a hockey puck into Biden's big mouth. Must be the screen name ;)

43 posted on 08/25/2008 8:01:52 AM PDT by MaggieCarta (If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt. Dean Martin.)
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To: Darren McCarty
Biden made that clear in 2005 when, quoted in the Cincinnati Enquirer, he said: "The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat."

You may be religious, Joe, but you ain't Catholic. This story reminds me of the NJ governor's debate in 2001 between Bret Schundler and Jim "gay American" McGreevy. At one point, McGreevy stressed how he was an altar boy and how his elderly mother was praying the rosary for him.

The rest is history.

Democrat politicians are only Catholic when they think it will get them votes. When it comes to actually living their Faith, they can't be bothered.

Hypocrites all!
44 posted on 08/25/2008 8:51:24 AM PDT by Antoninus (The greatest gifts parents give their children are siblings.)
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To: Coldwater Creek
No Church discipline there.

Our bishops in the US are weak and spineless beyond belief (with a few notable exceptions). And they wonder why they have trouble attracting vocations. Perhaps if they actually stood for Christ and not Mammon, men would want to give their lives for the cause.
45 posted on 08/25/2008 8:53:46 AM PDT by Antoninus (The greatest gifts parents give their children are siblings.)
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To: Darren McCarty
Here's a little gift for Joe.
 
 

46 posted on 08/25/2008 9:49:56 AM PDT by azcap
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To: PAR35

If Kerry pulled only 10% of the Catholic vote, while in the top SPOT; how is Biden’s faith an asset to Obama?


47 posted on 08/25/2008 9:55:37 PM PDT by PizzaDriver (an heinleinian/libertarian)
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