Denver archbishop slams Pelosi on Church teachings and abortion

CNA ^ | August 25, 2008

[NYer]

Rep. Nancy Pelosi / Archbishop Chaput

Denver, Aug 25, 2008 / 03:27 pm (CNA).- In a statement eloquently titled “On the Separation of Sense and State,” the Archbishop of Denver, Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap., and his Auxiliary Bishop James D. Conley harshly criticized Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, for giving a confusing view of the Catholic Church’s teaching on abortion, during a Sunday interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

“Catholic public leaders inconvenienced by the abortion debate” –says the statement- “tend to take a hard line in talking about the ‘separation of Church and state.’  But their idea of separation often seems to work one way.” 

“In fact, some officials also seem comfortable in the role of theologian.  And that warrants some interest, not as a ‘political’ issue, but as a matter of accuracy and justice.”

Archbishop Chaput’s statement recognizes Pelosi as “a gifted public servant of strong convictions and many professional skills” but adds that “regrettably, knowledge of Catholic history and teaching does not seem to be one of them.”

During the Meet the Press interview on August 24, Pelosi responded to a question about when human life begins by saying that “as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time.  And what I know is over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition . . . St. Augustine said at three months.  We don't know. The point is, is that it shouldn't have an impact on the woman's right to choose.”

The Archdiocese of Denver argues that since Speaker Pelosi claims to have studied the issue “for a long time,” “she must know very well one of the premier works on the subject, Jesuit John Connery’s Abortion: The Development of the Roman Catholic Perspective (Loyola, 1977).

The statement recall’s Connery’s conclusion: “The Christian tradition from the earliest days reveals a firm antiabortion attitude . . . The condemnation of abortion did not depend on and was not limited in any way by theories regarding the time of fetal animation.  Even during the many centuries when Church penal and penitential practice was based on the theory of delayed animation, the condemnation of abortion was never affected by it.  Whatever one would want to hold about the time of animation, or when the fetus became a human being in the strict sense of the term, abortion from the time of conception was considered wrong, and the time of animation was never looked on as a moral dividing line between permissible and impermissible abortion.”

The Archdiocese’s statement also quotes “the blunter words of the great Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer.”

Bonhoeffer, a strong critic and later victim of the Nazi regime in his native Germany wrote that “the destruction of the embryo in the mother’s womb is a violation of the right to live which God has bestowed on this nascent life. To raise the question whether we are here concerned already with a human being or not is merely to confuse the issue. The simple fact is that God certainly intended to create a human being and that this nascent human being has been deliberately deprived of his life. And that is nothing but murder.”

Archbishop Chaput’s statement continues, explaining that, “ardent, practicing Catholics will quickly learn from the historical record that from apostolic times, the Christian tradition overwhelmingly held that abortion was grievously evil.  In the absence of modern medical knowledge, some of the Early Fathers held that abortion was homicide; others that it was tantamount to homicide; and various scholars theorized about when and how the unborn child might be animated or ‘ensouled.’  But none diminished the unique evil of abortion as an attack on life itself, and the early Church closely associated abortion with infanticide.  In short, from the beginning, the believing Christian community held that abortion was always, gravely wrong.”

Archbishop Chaput also highlighted that “we now know with biological certainty exactly when human life begins.  Thus, today’s religious alibis for abortion and a so-called ‘right to choose’ are nothing more than that – alibis that break radically with historic Christian and Catholic belief.”

“Abortion kills an unborn, developing human life.  It is always gravely evil, and so are the evasions employed to justify it.  Catholics who make excuses for it – whether they’re famous or not – fool only themselves and abuse the fidelity of those Catholics who do sincerely seek to follow the Gospel and live their Catholic faith,” the statement adds.

Finally Archbishop Chaput recalls that “the duty of the state and its officials is to serve the common good, which is always rooted in moral truth.  A proper understanding of the ‘separation of Church and state’ does not imply a separation of faith from political life.  But of course, it’s always important to know what our faith actually teaches.”

Read the full statement at:  http://www.archden.org/images/ArchbishopCorner/ByTopic/onseparationofsense%26state_openlettercjc8.25.08.pdf

[NYer]

“Abortion kills an unborn, developing human life. It is always gravely evil, and so are the evasions employed to justify it. Catholics who make excuses for it – whether they’re famous or not – fool only themselves and abuse the fidelity of those Catholics who do sincerely seek to follow the Gospel and live their Catholic faith,” the statement adds.

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[Unam Sanctam]

Good for Archbishop Chaput. As Amy Welborn says, when a politician purports to pronounce what Catholic doctrine is, bishops should as part of their teaching office correct publicly any errors stated. I remember not too long ago Boston Mayor Menino purporting to state what he thought was the correct Catholic view on homosexuality. I truly wish Cardinal O’Malley had issued a public statement correcting his errors.

[JohnLongIsland]

The Killer B’s - Biden and Barack

[NTHockey]

WOW. It’s about time. There walks a man of God.

These words and others spring to mind. Now follow up with action. By her beliefs, she is a heretic. So is Biden. So is Kennedy. So is Kerry.

Bring back the stake for heretics.

[reegs]

If Ms. Pelosi is has truly studied this issue as an “ardent” Catholic, then her response can only be seen as deception, an attempt to convince Catholics in name-only that there is wiggle room in the abortion debate. I pray that she reconsiders her view.

[ladtx]

...“as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time."

Hmm, sounds like she need more practice.

[Sgt_Schultze]

Pelosi should be forgiven. Her limousine rides to Sunday School when she was a Baltimore debutante clouded her memories of what was in the book meant for “those other people.”

[notaliberal]

Ouch! Hey Pelosi, give it up you are not a Catholic!

[Deo volente]

God bless Archbishop Chaput! Catholics in Denver are very fortunate to have such a good and courageous shepherd!

[big'ol_freeper]

God bless Archbishop Chaput!!

[mouse1]

AMEN!

[BlackElk]

You rang???

[jmaroneps37]

Yes but all of us dumb Catholics will vote for the abortion ticket of Obama/Biden because Biden is supposed to be a Cathoilc. Don’t forget that come November. You are too stupid to see through this crap.

[Federalist Society]

I’m glad she didn’t get a pass on this at least by the church. Wonder when the MSM is going to cover this!

[the invisib1e hand]

The point is, is that it shouldn't have an impact on the woman's right to choose.”

What shouldn't? The teaching of the Church? The actual beginning of life?

***

Catholism has never been for the feint of heart.

Even less going forward, it looks like.

They're gonna hate us for shining light into their darkness.

[xkaydet65]

I am shocked that the Bishop did not add to his statement the fact that by her statement purporting to present the Church’s teachings, Pelosi has endangered the souls of those Catholics who might follow her lead. This is prima facie cause for excommunication.

[the invisib1e hand]

Bonhoeffer, a strong critic and later victim of the Nazi regime in his native Germany wrote that “the destruction of the embryo in the mother’s womb is a violation of the right to live which God has bestowed on this nascent life. To raise the question whether we are here concerned already with a human being or not is merely to confuse the issue. The simple fact is that God certainly intended to create a human being and that this nascent human being has been deliberately deprived of his life. And that is nothing but murder.”

Interesting...I don't normally associate Bonhoffer's era with being so egregious about abortion that he would have spoken out about it.

Another similarity...

[sport]

Reference your post # 19:

I agree with the cite word-for-word.

[the invisib1e hand]

“we now know with biological certainty exactly when human life begins.

And even if we didn't, as Peggy Noonan pointed out,

Anyone who's ever bought a pack of condoms knows when life begins.

[pgkdan]

God bless Archbishop Chaput!!

Bless him and send us 50 more like him!

[AnalogReigns]

I fully agree with the Bishop Chaput’s stand here—and the Roman Church’s position on life in general. Particularly with the scientific knowledge we have today, no Christian can claim the name and not be fully pro-life.

Though not a part of the Church of Rome, and well aware of the “latia sentia” practice (of silent, private, implied excommunication), for the life of me, I don’t know why the Roman Church does not have formal public excommunication procedures for public figures such as Polosi—a big part of whose political appeal is no doubt that they claim to be Roman Catholic.

There should be no doubt at all to EVERYONE that she is NOT an “an ardent, practicing Catholic” and PUBLIC excommunication alone would make that clear.

Putting a few of these folks “under the ban” would do a lot to tell average Roman Catholic laity—and the world at large—that no, these folk are not Roman Catholic, and yes, they are apostate.

[johnnycap]

Bravo to the Archbishop but he left one thing out:

“...and if Speaker Pelosi does not correct her views and the record, I would recommend that she not be allowed to receive Holy Communion and that she herself practice some Catholic discipline and refrain from attempting to recieve Holy Communion because she is not in communion with her church.”

[MIchaelTArchangel]

Nancy Pelosi’s nontheological statements were designed to provide cover for Barack Obama. Both Barack and his wife Michele Obama are followers of Peter Singer, a professor at Princeton, who has no problem putting down children born with defects or elderly people who are unable to care for themselves, and apparently wants to allow parents to abort children up through their fourth birthday for any reason or no reason at all.

[fetal heart beats by 21st day]

God bless Archbishop Chaput for smacking this right back at her-fast!

[Salvation]

Archbishop Chaput bump!

[Salvation]

The Uninvited Guest

The Democrats' uninvited guest Posted Aug. 19, 2008 11:53 AM || by Phil Lawler || category Commentary

When the leaders of the Democratic Party gather in Denver for their nominating convention, they'll hear from a number of prominent religious leaders. They'll hear from several prominent Catholics, too. But they won't hear from the Archbishop of Denver, points out Julia Duin of theWashington Times.

Archbishop Charles Chaput would be a very, very interesting convention speaker. He's intelligent, witty, modest, and thoughtful. He has taken a special interest in the relationship between religion and politics, as demonstrated by his new book, Render Unto Caesar.

But if you were a Democratic leader… if you were a supporter of Senator Obama… would you want to hand Archbishop Chaput the microphone? Nope. His message would not be congenial to the "pro-choice" crowd.

Ray Flynn, former Boston mayor and later US ambassador to the Vatican, tells the Washington Times that the failure to include Archbishop Chaput is "a serious oversight" on the part of Democratic Party leaders. Serious, yes. Oversight, no. 

[Salvation]

You must have been missing the links I have posted about this issue. Many bishops speaking out against Obama and abortion.

Denver archbishop slams Pelosi on Church teachings and abortion
Pelosi, Abortion & St. Augustine - UPDATED
“Help me out here, Madam Speaker” ( “I don't think anybody can tell you when life begins” )

Biden's Catholic faith offers risks, rewards
Nancy Pelosi on when life begins (Smarter than Obama?
Obama, Biden, Foreign Policy and the Catholic Vote
The "Abortion Joe" Biden will get his ticket a record low Catholic vote
Obama's Falsehood: The Truth About His Abortion Record

EDITORIAL:Obama Chooses Biden and the Battle for Life is Engaged
Joe Biden Makes It Easier for Catholics to Oppose Pro-Abortion Barack Obama
Obamacide
McCain attacks Obama on pro-abortion stance
Barack Obama's Sole Article in Harvard Law Review Promotes Abortion

Why Obama Really Voted For Infanticide
Obama's Born-Alive Problem
William A. Donohue: Catholic Left Hangs Itself (5/22/08) [Abortion]
"Until they have reformed their lives" ( No Holy Communion for pro-abortion Catholics!)
African American Pro-Life Leader Tells Barack Obama: No We Can't OK Abortion

OBAMA AND INFANTICIDE (Reinhard)
They'd be angry at Obama if he was caught saying the N-word. Supporting Infanticide—Not so much.
In 2002, Barack Obama Supported Infanticide and I've Got the Transcript of His Words
Explosive Audio Found - Obama arguing against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act - Audio
Transcript of Obama's verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor

Explosive Audio Found Obama arguing against BAIPA
Audio Found Obama arguing against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Abortion foes using racism to make point at DNC [Randall Terry / Operation Rescue]
Why Obama couldn't answer Warren's baby question
Smoking gun? Papers expose Obama's 'infanticide' vote

EXTRA: Archbishop Burke on Catholics who Support Abortion
Senator Barack Obama Wants You to Pay for Abortions
US Bishops Look at Election
John McCain Will Not Pick Pro-Abortion Running Mate, Rules Out Tom Ridge
Vote for Real Hope and Change [Archbishop Chaput]
Catholics who support abortion should not receive Communion, says Archbishop Burke (again :-)
CNN Again Omits Part of the Story Concerning Obama’s Abortion Votes

Obama Flunks Rick Warren's Abortion Question
Obama and the Black American Family Don’t Jibe [Abortion]
Obama Caught Red-Handed in Abortion Lie
Archbishop Naumann hopes Obama realizes Sebelius is a bad Catholic advisor
Obama Facing Attacks >From All Sides Over Abortion Record

OBAMA'S EXTREMISM - HIS ABORTION RECORD IS NO LIE
Barack Obama - Abortion Extremist
Barack Obama lied about babies ‘Born Alive’ vote then smeared Corsi
Babies' Rights and the Definition of Marriage [re: Forum responses by Obama vs. McCain]
Opinion: Doug Kmiec on McCain v. Obama at Saddleback

Obama Cover-up on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Continues to Unravel...
Life Lies: Barack Obama and Born-Alive
Operation Rescue founder to distribute new flyer: "Is it Immoral to Vote for Obama for President?"
Obama Calls Pro-Lifers Liars
Obama Jun 15: “fathers…at conception” August 16 “answering that question is above my pay grade”

Niece of Martin Luther King Jr. to Lead Prayer Vigil Outside Largest U.S. Abortion Centre
Campaign Admits Obama Lied About Abortion Vote, Media Asleep
Obama “pay grade” comment purposely ignores SCIENTIFIC FACT that LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION
Barack Obama Repeats False Claim Abortions Haven't Declined Under Bush
Obama and Abortion

Obama Says Right to Life Coalition Is Lying About His Record
Barack Obama Says Pro-Life Group Lying About His Pro-Infanticide Votes
Obama's infanticide problem>
Obama and McCain Woo Catholics
Obama's Christian Creds Vs. Abortion and Infanticide

Obama's 10 reasons for supporting infanticide
Mommy Won't Help Dems on Abortion
Abortion Leader Confirms that Democratic Platform is More Pro-Abortion than Ever
Obama More Than An Abortion Radical
Obama’s Abortion Lies (Obama cover-up on born-alive survivors bill)

Life with Obama: Abortion champion
Knighting the Catholic Vote (K of C urging Catholics to vote pro-life)
Linda Chavez: Obama’s Catholic problem
Catholic Voters and 2008
Barack Obama Supports the Murder of Newborn Infants

Obama Lied About Abortion Record
What Barack Obama defended three times: Live Birth Abortion
[OPEN] Supreme K of C Calls for Real "Change" on Abortion and Catholic Revolt against Obama Nation
Obama's Catholic Problem ( Linda Chavez )
Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics ( "May Divide?" )

Obama loses 26 points among Catholics
Barack Obama's Wife Michelle to Join Hillary Clinton at Pro-Abortion Dinner
OPINION: Senator Obama and the Wall of the Womb
Barack Obama's Pledge to Overturn Every Pro-Life Abortion Law One Year Old
Obama Worse than Clintons on Abortion Says National Right to Life Leader Interview-SCOTUS Critical

Roman Catholics for Obama '08
OBAMA TO CATHOLICS: NO VOUCHERS
How can Catholics for Obama rationalize their support for the pro-choice candidate?
Obama’s director of Catholic Outreach ‘dodges’ opportunity to reach Catholics
Barack Obama Slams John McCain For Opposing Abortion, Activist Judges

Catholics and Obama
COMMENTARY: Quandry for Catholics At Election Time
The Latest Refinement (Obama on Abortion)
CNN Runs Biased News Story Covering Up Barack Obama’s Pro-Abortion Record
Jill Stanek: Obama's biggest lie about supporting infanticide
The Battle for Catholic Voters

New Report Indicates Voters Most Interested in Barack Obama’s Position on Abortion
Deal Hudson: Obama and Infanticide?
Ad asks Obama: ‘If fatherhood begins at conception, when does life begin?’
Embryonic stem-cell research immoral, unnecessary, bishops say
Catholics should not vote for Obama
Catholic Caucus: It is a sin to vote/support Obama/DNC [abortion]

More Catholics leaning towards Democrats, poll reports (really not Catholics)
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion....
NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama
Editorial: Disagreeing with Doug Kmiec One More Time
State-Funded Embryo Research "Makes Taxpayers Complicit in Killing", say Bishops

McCain Meets Privately with Fr. Pavone - Says Constitutional Right to Life Applies to Unborn
Faithful Citizenship: “Catholic Vote” is very sought after
Has Obama dissolved his Catholic advisory council?
Commentary: Faithful Citizenship and the Formed Conscience
Catholic League: Where's Obama's 'Catholic Advisory Council'? [Not to be found!]
Right-wing Christians beginning to lean left (Misleading headline)

Catholics Debate Obama Vote
US Bishops Urge Voters to Give Priority to Life [Ecumenical]
Corralling the Catholic vote: Political necessity or pipe dream?
DOUG KMIEC: Catholic Reasons for Hope in the General Election
EDITORIAL: Why This Catholic Dreads the Campaign
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Thoughts On ‘Roman Catholics For Obama’

How Obama's Catholics Will Dodge the Infanticide Question
Catholic Pro-Life Leader Feuds With Barack Obama's "Catholic" Backers
McCain and the Pope: McCain cannot win in November without the Catholic vote (Reagan re-visited?)
Catholics Cannot Vote for Pols Who Support Abortion, Except for Morally Grave Reasons: KY Bishops

[Salvation]

Catholics who support abortion in this way (voting) are dooming themselves to excommunication. Stop and think before you pull the lever!

1:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2271  (618 bytes )  preview document matches 1 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2271.htm

97%

2:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2272  (580 bytes )  preview document matches 2 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2272.htm

96%

3:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2322  (290 bytes )  preview document matches 2 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3), URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2322.htm

96%

4:	CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2274  (554 bytes )  preview document matches gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2274.htm

[seoul62]

All of these CINO’S are still receiving Communion? The directive needs to come directly from the Pope: immediate ex-communication for any politician supporting unrestricted abortion and partial birth abortion because this handing it off to the Bishops is not working. Oh, I am making too much sense and sense will never prevail in this case./Just Asking - seoul62......

[okokie]

she isn’t a “practicing” catholic, she is a pretending catholic...

[Salvation]

**I would recommend that she not be allowed to receive Holy Communion and that she herself practice some Catholic discipline and refrain from attempting to recieve Holy Communion because she is not in communion with her church.”**

You are correct. She has excommunicated herself and can no longer be communicated. (Receive Communion.)

[Salvation]

You are right. They cannot receive Communion worthily unless they go to Confession and promise to change their ways.

[TigersEye]

So Archbishop Chaput, in very diplomatic terms, is saying that San Fran Nan knows about as much about Catholicism as she does about oil and gas.

[jwalsh07]

Nancy is an apostate who has excommunicated herself by embracing a grave evil and then compounding that by lying about the position of the Catholic Church. Any Priest offering Nancy communion compounds that evil once again by endorsing her warped theology.

[red irish]

Absolutely!!! The fact that she is a PUBLIC figure who supports abortion goes very badly for her regardless of what she thinks. 55 million dead children because of abortion.

[TigersEye]

Anyone who's ever bought a pack of condoms knows when life begins.

Either Obama has never bought any or it's above his pay grade to know why he did.

[red irish]

Sources please?

[NYer]

The Archdiocese’s statement also quotes “the blunter words of the great Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer.”

Could you possibly ping the Lutheran list holder? Thank you!

[NYer]

God bless Archbishop Chaput! Catholics in Denver are very fortunate to have such a good and courageous shepherd!

Rumor has it that Chaput has been selected to replace NY Cardinal Egan. May this rumor be true!!! If ever NYS needed a strong leader, it is now!

[arkady_renko]

You've gotten right at the heart of her comments. In effect she is saying, "No matter if it is a life or not, my support for a woman's right to end it remains."

That is more horrifying than having her leave it at a mystery. Now she is admitting that she is fine with possibility of the destruction of life. Doesn't matter either way to her.

Obama is the same - he claims to have no idea when life begins. 50/50 chance that it is murder, but he'll support it anyway. Going a step further, he says, even if the aborted baby moves (he or she is alive) it is not worth saving.

Forget about 'No blood for oil' The Dems are willing to give the blood of infants for expediency and votes/power.

Maybe Rev Wright is right... G-D America if this stands. I would see no reason for Him to bless her.

[NYer]

I am shocked that the Bishop did not add to his statement the fact that by her statement purporting to present the Church’s teachings,

I believe he covered that with the following statement:

“Abortion kills an unborn, developing human life.  It is always gravely evil, and so are the evasions employed to justify it.  Catholics who make excuses for it – whether they’re famous or not – fool only themselves and abuse the fidelity of those Catholics who do sincerely seek to follow the Gospel and live their Catholic faith,” the statement adds.

[netmilsmom]

My Slovak Pastor had a little speech at the end of Mass yesterday.

He started with, “I know I am going to offend some of you....” then went on to explain that the only time he was physically ill at a CNN report about the “Born Alive Act” and Obama.

He said, “I’m I telling you how to vote? No, but the USCCB is against all forms of abortion, including partial birth and for the “Born Alive” act. That tells you what you should do as a Catholic.”

God Love My Pastor!!!!!

[NYer]

I don’t know why the Roman Church does not have formal public excommunication procedures for public figures such as Polosi

Because our Lord came for the sinners. What good is accomplished by tossing them out of the Church. The proper and most Christ like approach is to correct them - first in private then, if necessary, publicly. The bishop is following in the footsteps of Christ, the Shepherd.

[NYer]

Both Barack and his wife Michele Obama are followers of Peter Singer, a professor at Princeton, who has no problem putting down children born with defects or elderly people who are unable to care for themselves, and apparently wants to allow parents to abort children up through their fourth birthday for any reason or no reason at all.

Yes ... I have heard this. Can you provide links to more detailed connections between the two? I have also read that one of Obama's major financial backers (is it also Singer?) is seeking to postpone the issuance of children's birth certificates for up to 2 years ... just in case .... the child has a life threatening birth defect or illness. This would then preclude the necessity to issue formal death certificates. They could simply terminate the child's life, as if it had never been born. What do you know of this?

[AnalogReigns]

Because our Lord came for the sinners. What good is accomplished by tossing them out of the Church.

Agreed, Jesus did come to save us sinners. However, our Lord clearly indicated that eventually...if someone who claims to be a brother (or sister) is intransigent, and won't be corrected privately or publicly, than they must be thrown out of the Church...and this must be public.

Pelosi and other politicians like her--who base their careers on being pro-abortion AND Roman Catholic fit this description perfectly.

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." (Matt. 18:15-17)

Oddly enough this passage is immediately followed by one commonly attributed to establish Roman Catholic authority: "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

What good is a Church's authority if never exercised?

[the invisib1e hand]

Maybe Rev Wright is right...

Not a chance.

The Pope is right when he said, "God bless America.

[NTHockey]

Talk is cheap.
Actions speak louder than words.
If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear, does it make a sound.

Cliches, yes! Trite, maybe! The weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth - priceless.

[arkady_renko]

I hope for that in my soul, but although we have a promise that the Church will never fail, we have no such promise about protection for a Molech worshiping nation.