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Are You Too Dumb to Understand Evolution?
CreationEvolutionHeadlines ^ | September 10, 2008

Posted on 09/11/2008 9:55:10 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Sept 10, 2008 — Astrobiologist David Deamer believes that life can spontaneously emerge without design, but he thinks lay people are too uneducated to understand how this is possible, so he gives them the watered-down version of Darwin’s natural selection instead, which he knows is inadequate to explain the complexity of life. That’s what he seemed to be telling reporter Susan Mazur in an interview for the Scoop (New Zealand). Is the lay public really too dense for the deeper knowledge of how evolution works?...

(Excerpt) Read more at creationsafaris.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: 2smart2fall4it; atheistagenda; creation; crevo; darwin; evolution; god; intelligentdesign; scientism
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To: js1138

The insult game works both ways. Slander is slander. The loaded question in the headline assumes that one who doesn’t believe in evolution is dumb. That has been disproven.

Going one step further, since it was proven, then suing educators who raise questions about evolution is Kelo level sick.


1,651 posted on 09/22/2008 2:43:24 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: LeGrande

“[The Bible] was wrong in most instances but it is very important to have theories to test against.”

I would agree that the perspective of the prophets was ancient. They could see an airplane in a vision and think it was a flying beast. But that doesn’t discredit the Bible. It adds to the great Book’s wonder.


1,652 posted on 09/22/2008 2:46:45 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: tpanther

When I was a kid, I once tricked a friend into thinking that chess is an intelligence test. I know a lot of the basic tricks in chess. That poor friend was in awe of me. I later confessed. I had to play other games to get my friend’s self worth back up. Kind of the same thing here. Parents don’t have time to follow every detail of the evolution debate. That doesn’t mean they are dumb.


1,653 posted on 09/22/2008 2:53:08 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: ColdWater

“You are in favor of teaching as SCIENCE that god is dead?”

If the parent wants his/her kid taught that there are UFOs which shoot poop into space, and that’s the source of all life, that’s their decision. If they want to block their kids from learning evolution, that’s their busines.

I have only one issue: teachers who aid in the delinquency of a minor — such as stealing to celebrate Quanza, or cutting off the heads of infidels. Other than that, I want the parent-teacher relationship left alone.


1,654 posted on 09/22/2008 2:58:19 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Got your link filed in my evolution folder. Thank you. =]

If I ever need more ammo, I’ll check it out:

http://creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_2/j21_2_109-115.pdf

FRegards ....


1,655 posted on 09/22/2008 3:06:22 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

He didn’t even answer the question at all! He went into some explanation about evolution “misconceptions”.


1,656 posted on 09/22/2008 4:27:26 AM PDT by CommieCutter (THE BIAS OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA HAS FINALLY HIT THE MAINSTREAM!)
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March

I always wondered that myself. If a thousand years is like one day to god, then do the math.


1,657 posted on 09/22/2008 4:28:23 AM PDT by CommieCutter (THE BIAS OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA HAS FINALLY HIT THE MAINSTREAM!)
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To: leftcoaster

LOL! Ok Dawkins.


1,658 posted on 09/22/2008 4:31:02 AM PDT by CommieCutter (THE BIAS OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA HAS FINALLY HIT THE MAINSTREAM!)
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To: CommieCutter

Any number beyond a thousand was difficult for many ancients to conceive. They referred to a million as ‘a thousand thousand’. ‘Forty days and forty nights’ was a generalization. I wouldn’t be surprised if a thousand years also was.


1,659 posted on 09/22/2008 4:31:26 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: CommieCutter

Moving on to two more ‘dummies’ who don’t quite understand random evolution: Sir Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe. They won impressive awards and honors that could fill half a page. Oh and they were also atheists. But they’re like so many others, just ‘too dumb’ to get it.

Quote: Hoyle ran the numbers to determine the mathematical probability of the basic enzymes of life arising by random processes. They concluded that the odds were 1 to 1 followed by 40,000 zeroes, or “so utterly minuscule “ as to make Darwin’s theory of evolution absurd.

Unquote — Godless page 211 [Coulter]


1,660 posted on 09/22/2008 4:42:19 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: bert
again I say....Bible verses don’t count
 
Do not read the following text...
 
 
 
 
Job 38
 
 1.  Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
 2.  "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?
 3.  Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
 4.  "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
 5.  Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
 6.  On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone--
 7.  while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
 8.  "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
 9.  when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness,
 10.  when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place,
 11.  when I said, `This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'?
 12.  "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place,
 13.  that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
 14.  The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
 15.  The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
 16.  "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?
 17.  Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death ?
 18.  Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this.
 19.  "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?
 20.  Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
 21.  Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
 22.  "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,
 23.  which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
 24.  What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
 25.  Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm,
 26.  to water a land where no man lives, a desert with no one in it,
 27.  to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?
 28.  Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew?
 29.  From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
 30.  when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
 31.  "Can you bind the beautiful  Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?
 32.  Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear  with its cubs?
 33.  Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up [God's ] dominion over the earth?
 34.  "Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
 35.  Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, `Here we are'?
 36.  Who endowed the heart  with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind ?
 37.  Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
 38.  when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together?
 39.  "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions
 40.  when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket? 
 41.  Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
 
 

1,661 posted on 09/22/2008 5:57:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: allmendream
That “The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule if any Christian, not blessed with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma that which scientific scrutiny shows to be false” Thomas Aquinas

There is a big difference between showing and claiming.

1,662 posted on 09/22/2008 6:00:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: allmendream
And if they don't tame down and join the church their education is pitiful for the modern world.

AMISH?

Are you confusing them with products of our inner city schools?

1,663 posted on 09/22/2008 6:01:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March

yeah... but given enough time.... /sarc

or

life was planted here by highly evolved aliens
(that put microbes on the planet instead of stocking it with fully “evolved” animals from their own)


1,664 posted on 09/22/2008 6:04:02 AM PDT by MrB (0bama supporters: What's the attraction? The Marxism or the Infanticide?)
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To: Fichori
We are discussing SCIENCE!
Why do you insist on bringing up RELIGION?

Because you seem to think that the Bible is a scientific textbook. That is the whole premise behind creationism, you think that it should be taught next to real science.

I happen to think that it should be taught next to Greek Mythology.

Do you want to become a Christian?

Your cognitive dissonance must be working overtime. What in the world gave you the idea that I might want to be a Christian? Especially a Christian as you would define it.

1,665 posted on 09/22/2008 6:37:13 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I would agree that the perspective of the prophets was ancient. They could see an airplane in a vision and think it was a flying beast. But that doesn’t discredit the Bible. It adds to the great Book’s wonder.

Except for the drug induced visions (and some other stuff) in the Bible I will agree that it is a remarkable work. It probably wasn't bettered until Newton wrote Principia Mathematica.

1,666 posted on 09/22/2008 6:42:10 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
You were more ignorant after reading Coulter/Behe’s piece on evolution than before. Please pay attention to her last line of the chapter, paraphrased ‘If evolution is true (and it is) then it was the means God used to create us’.
1,667 posted on 09/22/2008 6:47:31 AM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: Elsie

You do not seem to have shown any credible scientific evidence to the contrary.

“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule if any Christian, not blessed with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma that which scientific scrutiny shows to be false” Thomas Aquinas


1,668 posted on 09/22/2008 6:49:21 AM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
The insult game works both ways. Slander is slander.

I continue to ask for problems and weaknesses in the theory of evolution, and you continue to evade the question or offer obsolete arguments.

You offer Ann Coulter, a political writer, channelling Behe.

Behe is a qualified scientist, but he has had two opportunities to defend his ideas in court under oath and has succeeded only in making it clear that his criticisms don't hold up to scrutiny. Irreducible complexity isn't irreducible. The structures Behe claimed wouldn't work if simplified do work in simpler forms, and do so in living things.

Three step mutations do occur and have been observed in controlled experiments. they do not require zillions of years.

1,669 posted on 09/22/2008 6:53:52 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Quote: Hoyle ran the numbers to determine the mathematical probability of the basic enzymes of life arising by random processes.

The number crunching is fine, but it's the wrong problem. Evolution isn't random and proteins don't assemble by random processes.

Evolution is equivalent to playing in a casino where you collect your winnings but don't have to pay your losses. The roll of the dice may remain random, but the outcome is not.

1,670 posted on 09/22/2008 7:00:23 AM PDT by js1138
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To: mrjesse
I told you in the begining that I've never been to school and that I grew up getting up in the morning to milk the family cow and feed the chickens. But when you mentioned the 150 miles an hour I went and check up on it and why shouldn't I be able to calculate the angular displacement? It's just light-time correction. (there may be some stellar aberration in there too but I didn't bother with that.)

LOL What you mean is that you cut and pasted a quote from somewhere on line. You don't have to keep repeating that you never went to school, stating the obvious is redundant.

Furthermore, I have not been able to find a single scientific report from anyone else that says there is a 2.1 degree apparent angular displacement of the suns position. So either you're making it up or you are the only person who knows about it. If you were the only scientist who know it, you'd say so -- and that way I would know why I couldn't find anyone else backing it up. But I think the answer is obvious: You made a claim in the beginning which was not true and you haven't the integrity to admit that you were wrong.

What was my untrue claim? I simply claimed that apparent position does not equal actual position. You are the one that tried to precisely determine how big the discrepancy was after you reluctantly agreed that there was a difference. I simply asked you to tell me 'when', admittedly it was a trick question : )

Am I wrong?

Yes. Why don't you do yourself a favor and pick up a good college level physics text book and study it. I promise you that it will change the way you see the world. Much of what 'appears' to be simply isn't that way at all : )

I have another dilemma for you. Lets say that you have two masses, each weighing a pound at rest. Now lets say that you accelerate them up to something approaching the speed of light and then slam them together in an inelastic collision so that they are now one mass at rest. How much does that mass weigh? -----Weighty pause---- If you think 2 pounds you would be wrong : ) It now weighs more than 2 pounds.

And no I am not going to do the math to show that either. I am simply trying to goad you into getting an education : )

1,671 posted on 09/22/2008 7:09:24 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: js1138

I thoguht our debate was turning civil. I should have known that an evolutionist would be too fanatical for that. I had already responded directly to your claim about Behe and gave you the benefit of the doubt. I already warned you that I’m no scientist. Nor do I have a sharp interest in the evolution debate.

My sharp interest is in freedom — period.

As for my slander claim, your post might accidentally trick people into thinking I said Behe was slandered. That was not what I posted, just to clear up your confusing post.

Now if you really want to keep spoiling for a debate, start sourcing your claims the way I do. And I’ll likely spend little time reading them. Just not that interested. I mentioned other intelligent points which you ignored. I understand that. People have to ignore some things in the information age.


1,672 posted on 09/22/2008 7:12:35 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: allmendream

“You were more ignorant after reading Coulter/Behe’s piece on evolution than before.”

Ah, reading brings ignorance. I’ll try to remember that.


1,673 posted on 09/22/2008 7:15:40 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: js1138

“Evolution isn’t random and proteins don’t assemble by random processes.”

Evolution isn’t random selection? Now I’m curious. [I didn’t see this post earlier. I thought you were obsessed over Behe, so I’ll offer you a partial apology.]


1,674 posted on 09/22/2008 7:18:19 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: Elsie
If you complete the course of education and are near or at the top of your class in almost any inner city school you will receive a better and more relevant education (if your goal is a University level education) than being near or at the top of your class in any Amish school. One might make you better prepared to build a barn and drive a buggy and speak archaic German. The Amish don't educate beyond about 8-10th grade.

Maybe if you actually knew something about the subject people might take your opinion seriously.

1,675 posted on 09/22/2008 7:18:45 AM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Reading propaganda increases ignorance, because some of the things one might then think are true simply are not. What is with Creationists getting their science “education” from lawyers anyway?
1,676 posted on 09/22/2008 7:20:14 AM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: allmendream

“Reading propaganda increases ignorance”

OK, sorry for my earlier snideness. I’m just getting a little defensive. Be back tomorrow. FRegards ....


1,677 posted on 09/22/2008 7:23:06 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! NO STRINGS! You guys are great! FReep on!)
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Evolution isn’t random selection? Now I’m curious.

Good.

Now all you need to do is think about the fact that casinos don't need to cheat in order to make money. Once you understand that even random processes can have non-random effects, you will be on the road to understanding evolution.

Think, perhaps, of Boyle's law -- you can look it up on wikipedia or any of hundreds of other sites. Random movements of molecules can have a unified effect.

Hint: no biologist of biochemist has ever asserted that proteins assemble in a single jump. Hoyle's calculations may be without mathematical error, but they do not describe any historical event.

1,678 posted on 09/22/2008 7:28:21 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March

==If I ever need more ammo, I’ll check it out

Please do...It is cutting-edge stuff, and one of the most significant Creationist papers to appear in years IMHO.

All the best—GGG


1,679 posted on 09/22/2008 8:04:50 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I thoguht our debate was turning civil.

Ann Coulter is a political writer. She is not a source for information about biochemistry.

The transcript of the Dover trial is a good place to see Behe's thoughts in his own words. It is also a good place to see what happens to his claims of irreducible complexity when they are examined carefully.

1,680 posted on 09/22/2008 8:14:25 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

==Come on, the guy talks about this stuff for a living and had just written a book dealing with the subject. It’s not a particularly shocking question—the subject comes up on these threads all the time. You think he’d never heard it before?

I know this is difficult for you, but Dawkins simply could not answer the question. Even an anti-creationist like Glenn Morton admits Dawkins couldn’t answer the question:

“I will state categorically that the audio tape of the interview 100% supports Gillian Brown’s contention that Dawkins couldn’t answer the question.”

http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199807/0117.html

The question you should be asking yourself is: WHY COULDN’T DAWKINS ANSWER THE QUESTION????


1,681 posted on 09/22/2008 8:33:02 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: LeGrande; mrjesse
“Because you seem to think that the Bible is a scientific textbook. That is the whole premise behind creationism, you think that it should be taught next to real science.” [excerpt]
I haven't been referencing the Bible, as a scientific textbook or otherwise.

I have been posting demonstrable math.

Why are you bringing up Creationism?

Remember, we are talking about your claim that the Earths rotation alone causes a 2.1° discrepancy between the Suns optical position and its actual position.

You're the one who keeps bringing up religion, the Bible and Creationism!

“I happen to think that it should be taught next to Greek Mythology.” [excerpt]
And now your bringing up Greek Mythology!

“Your cognitive dissonance must be working overtime. What in the world gave you the idea that I might want to be a Christian? Especially a Christian as you would define it.” [excerpt]
Well, the fact that you keep bringing up Religion and Creationism while we are debating your supposedly scientific claim that there is 2.1° discrepancy between the Suns optical position and its actual position.

Why do you keep bringing up religion?

Is there something relgious about your 2.1°?
1,682 posted on 09/22/2008 10:33:39 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: allmendream
You do not seem to have shown any credible scientific evidence to the contrary.

And the PROtary are mere claims with NO proof of Evolution® at all.

1,683 posted on 09/22/2008 11:13:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: allmendream
The Amish don't educate beyond about 8-10th grade.

And an 8-10th grade 'eductaion' received 100 years ago is BETTER than a college degree today.

1,684 posted on 09/22/2008 11:14:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: js1138
Once you understand that even random processes can have non-random effects, you will be on the road to understanding evolution.

You mean BELIEVE; don't you?


Think, perhaps, of Boyle's law -- you can look it up on wikipedia or any of hundreds of other sites. Random movements of molecules can have a unified effect.

I guess that's why Brownian movement has a certain direction to it.

1,685 posted on 09/22/2008 11:17:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
I guess that's why Brownian movement has a certain direction to it.

Actually it does. If you track the movement of an individual dust mote, for example (the iconic example of Brownian motion) and plot the distance from its point of origin over time, the distance will increase.

Variation and selection present a special case, in which some changes are favored. If you study a system in which small random motions occur, and a ratchet mechanism blocks retrograde motion, you get effective motion away from the point of origin.

1,686 posted on 09/22/2008 11:30:11 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Elsie
Science deals in evidence not proof. Once again if you had any knowledge of the subject your opinion might carry more weight.
1,687 posted on 09/22/2008 11:32:30 AM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: Elsie
The Amish are woefully unprepared by their 8th grade education for the modern world or for beginning course work at the University level.

And my University degree in Cell and Molecular Biology covers knowledge not in existence one hundred years ago. Hard for their education in the subject to be “better” when they didn't even know about it.

Unless you consider keeping people ignorant of reality to be “better”. The Amish do. They call it ‘keeping apart from the world’.

1,688 posted on 09/22/2008 11:37:11 AM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Creeping up on a 2000 post thread.

Congratulations!


1,689 posted on 09/22/2008 11:42:33 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: GodGunsGuts
Oo, Glenn Morton says so! Must be true!

I still don't buy it. I have a pretty good plausibility detector. You're asking me to believe that someone who speaks publicly and on TV about evolution all the time was stumped by a question that, like I said, a half-dozen people on these threads have answered over and over. And that this same experienced public speaker, rather than launching into an evasive answer right away, stared into space for 11 seconds before saying anything. That's...implausible.

But, of course, you will believe what you want.

1,690 posted on 09/22/2008 12:10:15 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Fichori
I have been posting demonstrable math.

But you are using the wrong coordinate system : )

Why are you bringing up Creationism?

Did you read the title and the article behind this thread? "Are You Too Dumb to Understand Evolution?" I think the answer should be obvious : )

And now your bringing up Greek Mythology!

Don't you think that your faith should be taught next to Greek Mythology? Where would you put it, in the Sex Ed classes?

Is there something relgious about your 2.1°?

You agreed that if the Sun orbited the Earth (your Religious view unless you think the Bible is wrong) then you would see a 2.1 degree lag. I fail to see why you are so upset : ) I am simply agreeing that it doesn't matter whether the sun is orbiting the Earth or the Earth is merely spinning. It is essentially the same thing. I think you should stick to your religious principles and keep the Earth as the center : )

1,691 posted on 09/22/2008 12:43:01 PM PDT by LeGrande
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To: allmendream
Science deals in evidence not proof.

Therefore...

Then quit claiming that Evolution® is a PROVEN thing.

A biased veiw will claim the 'evidence' supports their veiwpoint - which, of course, is the correct one.

1,692 posted on 09/22/2008 1:11:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: js1138
If you track the movement of an individual dust mote, for example (the iconic example of Brownian motion) and plot the distance from its point of origin over time, the distance will increase.

Maxwell; methinks thou art demon posessed!

1,693 posted on 09/22/2008 1:15:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I notice you have no data with which to contradict me. You could do a google search and look at actual tracks of objects moved about by Brownian motion.


1,694 posted on 09/22/2008 1:22:46 PM PDT by js1138
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To: LeGrande; mrjesse
“But you are using the wrong coordinate system : )” [excerpt]

Below we have a two body system.

Both bodies are stationary.

The small green and blue body is rotating.

The large fiery body is not rotating.


It does not use the wrong coordinate system.

“Did you read the title and the article behind this thread? "Are You Too Dumb to Understand Evolution?" I think the answer should be obvious : )” [excerpt]
Oh, I understand Evolutions proponents claims.

I'm just not dumb enough to believe their claims.

“Don't you think that your faith should be taught next to Greek Mythology? Where would you put it, in the Sex Ed classes?” [excerpt]
I see your bringing up faith again.

Empirical science is not about faith.

“You agreed that if the Sun orbited the Earth (your Religious view unless you think the Bible is wrong) then you would see a 2.1 degree lag.” [excerpt]
I agreed that if the Sun orbited the Earth, there would be a 2.1° lag.

Scientifically speaking, the Sun does not orbit the Earth.

Why do you bring up your eisegetical understanding of the Bible again?

“I fail to see why you are so upset : ) I am simply agreeing that it doesn't matter whether the sun is orbiting the Earth or the Earth is merely spinning. It is essentially the same thing.” [excerpt]

Your assertion that there is no difference between the Sun orbiting the Earth and the Earth spinning is scientifically false.

They are not essentially the same thing.

A laser ring-gyro can tell the difference.

That proves the fallacy of your 'essentially the same' argument.

“I think you should stick to your religious principles and keep the Earth as the center : )” [excerpt]

'Religious principles' (says the atheist)

I have no 'religious principles' that tell me the Sun orbits the Earth.

However, I'm starting to think that you do.


Your religious principles aside, your claimed scientific assertion that there is a 2.1° lag of the Suns apparent position do to the Earths rotation is scientifically false.

You have not empirically demonstrated your claim.

Until then, your claim is a claim of Faith.
1,695 posted on 09/22/2008 2:08:32 PM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Elsie
And an 8-10th grade 'eductaion' received 100 years ago is BETTER than a college degree today.

Somehow I don't think you know what you are talking about.

1,696 posted on 09/22/2008 2:30:29 PM PDT by scarface367
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To: Elsie
The theory of evolution through natural selection is well supported by evidence.

That living systems are INCAPABLE of staying exactly the same, and thus undergo change/evolution is a fact.

Evolution is the change in genetic variation of a population. That there IS a change in genetic variation of a population is a fact that is explained by the theory.

Are you starting to comprehend? Should I try over again and go slower?

1,697 posted on 09/22/2008 3:39:08 PM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: scarface367

You would be correct.


1,698 posted on 09/22/2008 3:40:35 PM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
==But, of course, you will believe what you want.

Actually, now that I have demonstrated that partisans on both sides of the debate have acknowledged that Dawkins was stumped by the question, I think it would be more appropriate to say that YOU will ignore the obvious and believe what you want.

1,699 posted on 09/22/2008 3:47:32 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Fichori
It does not use the wrong coordinate system.

I asked you to show the Sun orbiting the Earth. You said that you agreed with the 2.1 degree lag if the Sun orbited the earth. Why are you trying to show it with a rotating Earth, you said that you couldn't do that way and I have to agree.

Oh, I understand Evolutions proponents claims.
I'm just not dumb enough to believe their claims.

Then falsify their claims, win a Nobel :) Will you pardon me if I don't hold my breath while I am waiting?

“Don't you think that your faith should be taught next to Greek Mythology? Where would you put it, in the Sex Ed classes?”

I see your bringing up faith again.
Empirical science is not about faith.

Creationism isn't science.

Your assertion that there is no difference between the Sun orbiting the Earth and the Earth spinning is scientifically false.

Not in a two body model : )

A laser ring-gyro can tell the difference.

What does a laser ring gyro prove in a two body model? That either the Earth or the Gyro is rotating? It is the same difference as the Earth/Sun model. Really you should do yourself a favor and visit the Library at least once in your life : )

I have no 'religious principles' that tell me the Sun orbits the Earth.

You don't believe Joshua 10:13? "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

Obviously the Bible claims that the Sun was moving around the Earth. You do believe the Bible don't you? It is your ultimate authority isn't it? LOL If you don't believe what the Bible says, then you have my apology.

You have not empirically demonstrated your claim.
Until then, your claim is a claim of Faith.

All you have to do is go outside with a transit and an accurate chronometer and take some careful measurements, no faith required. That is the difference between you and me, I believe in reality and you believe in fiction.

1,700 posted on 09/22/2008 4:12:40 PM PDT by LeGrande
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