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Are You Too Dumb to Understand Evolution?
CreationEvolutionHeadlines ^ | September 10, 2008

Posted on 09/11/2008 9:55:10 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Sept 10, 2008 — Astrobiologist David Deamer believes that life can spontaneously emerge without design, but he thinks lay people are too uneducated to understand how this is possible, so he gives them the watered-down version of Darwin’s natural selection instead, which he knows is inadequate to explain the complexity of life. That’s what he seemed to be telling reporter Susan Mazur in an interview for the Scoop (New Zealand). Is the lay public really too dense for the deeper knowledge of how evolution works?...

(Excerpt) Read more at creationsafaris.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: 2smart2fall4it; atheistagenda; creation; crevo; darwin; evolution; god; intelligentdesign; scientism
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To: Fichori

You have to realize that once anyone gives any indication that they do not take the hardline evoatheist no God/ no intelligence allowed position, that they are automatically crammed by the FRevos into the YEC Bible literalist, geocentric, flat earther box that is used to portray anyone who doesn’t tow the evo party line as backwards ignorant knuckle draggers.

It’s the only way that they can begin to give themselves the appearance of respectability; by creating a false image of those who disagree with them.

It’s pretty sad the lengths they have to go to try to convince others to join their side.


1,751 posted on 09/23/2008 12:48:12 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Fichori

In all his attempts to discredit Christianity, all he has done is revealed his breathtaking ignorance of Scripture.

He’s made a fool of himself on every thread he’s tried this on.


1,752 posted on 09/23/2008 12:51:41 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Caramelgal

I offer what I think is a good compromise – I’ll keep out me and my Priest and my kid’s science teacher out of your Sunday school class if you keep your Sunday school teacher and YEC Pastor out of my kid’s science class.


That sounds more than reasonable to me. I would only add that dissenting from darwin doesn’t automatically mean someone’s trying to force their religious beliefs on anyone.

So, along the same lines, how do feel about the ACLU calling a school board and threatening legal action if they don’t remove the word ‘Christmas’ from the school calendar?

(There indeed IS a bigger issue!)


1,753 posted on 09/23/2008 12:53:01 PM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther

This is exactly what’s been going on in schools,

any teacher that addresses the holes in Darwin

is targeted by an ACLU lawsuit.


1,754 posted on 09/23/2008 12:55:34 PM PDT by MrB (0bama supporters: What's the attraction? The Marxism or the Infanticide?)
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To: Fichori

It’s comical to see their unobjectivity over science but it’s hysterical to see their fear and misunderstandings of Christianity displayed publically.


1,755 posted on 09/23/2008 12:56:55 PM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: MartyK

Maybe I’m having an early onset of Alzheimer’s, but I can’t seem to remember one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable.

Can you?


To take it one step further, let’s examine what it HAS done:

Human classification as a great ape with no soul.

Not blaming darwinism but the cultists that have hijacked it, and run with it, and it surely doesn’t take long to see the deleterious effects!


1,756 posted on 09/23/2008 1:09:39 PM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: LeGrande

The Bible is a book of history mixed with myths, parables and stolen stories.

It appears this way when you don’t understand it.


1,757 posted on 09/23/2008 1:32:54 PM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther
Human classification as a great ape with no soul.

This viewpoint justifies abortion, euthenasia, and genocide. Those who are of little to no value to the greater, transcendent society may be purged with no moral consequences.

1,758 posted on 09/23/2008 1:39:37 PM PDT by MrB (0bama supporters: What's the attraction? The Marxism or the Infanticide?)
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To: tpanther
Maybe I’m having an early onset of Alzheimer’s, but I can’t seem to remember one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable.

Genetic algorithms and genetic programming are a direct spinoff of the theory of evolution. Entire industries, including the management of the electric power grid, depend on the problem solving ability of RMNS algorithms. Genetic algorithms are the most efficient way to solve very complex problems like the salesman route proble. There are corporations that organize their route deliveries based on RMNS algorithms.

1,759 posted on 09/23/2008 1:47:38 PM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138

Oh, felix culpa!

I’m so happy I apparently misunderstood the definition of evolution. So, it really has nothing to do with how cows and birds and humans came to be. Rather, it deals only with the many “flavors” we have of each type. I think some call this “micro-evolution”, and even IDers and creationists have no problem with it.

All is well after all, I guess.


1,760 posted on 09/23/2008 1:54:53 PM PDT by MartyK (Hey, don't blame me. BLAME EVOLUTION!)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%

Better keep digging through the old archives. You’ve come up empty so far.

Your examples are NOT dependent on being brain-washed by evolutionism.

“Animal testing”: NOT.
Mice and men can die from drug overdoses, therefore they have a common ancestor? Or vice versa?
Further afield, the idea of taking canaries into coal mines could spring ONLY from the mind of a Darwinist miner?
Still further and sillier – frogs and watermelons are green on the outside, contain water and will be squished if you drive your car over them. Reason being, they both come from amphibia watermelonis (fossil to follow any day now).

“Genetic testing of families”: NOT.
The father of the field of genetics was Gregor Mendel, a Catholic monk (how dare those religious types infringe on science!). His ground-breaking work with pea plants (none of which turned into prunes) owed nothing to Charles Darwin.

“Drug-resistant bacteria”: NOT.
As Sister Mary Elephant might have said: “Class. Class. CLASS! SHUUUUT UUPP!!! Thank you. Now, for the twentieth time, class, what do antibiotic-resistant bacteria and non-antibiotic-resistant bacteria have in common? Anyone ? Anyone? Correct! THEY’RE BOTH BACTERIA!”
And are you really trying to make me believe that we never would have had a clue why the penicillin was no longer effective UNLESS we believed in bacteria-to-Barry Bonds evolution?

And so, I repeat the question:
Can you, or anyone out there, name one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable?


1,761 posted on 09/23/2008 2:01:31 PM PDT by MartyK (Hey, don't blame me. BLAME EVOLUTION!)
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To: MartyK
I’m so happy I apparently misunderstood the definition of evolution. So, it really has nothing to do with how cows and birds and humans came to be.

You still misunderstand the definition of evolution. If you look at the actual fossil record, which includes millions of classified specimens, you will see most lineages connected by transitions much finer than the differences between dog breeds.

1,762 posted on 09/23/2008 2:03:09 PM PDT by js1138
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To: metmom
“You have to realize that once anyone gives any indication that they do not take the hardline evoatheist no God/ no intelligence allowed position, that they are automatically crammed by the FRevos into the YEC Bible literalist, geocentric, flat earther box that is used to portray anyone who doesn’t tow the evo party line as backwards ignorant knuckle draggers.” [excerpt]
I really don't mind being called a Knuckle Dragger.

If I'm a Knuckle Dragger and I ask an Evo a question and they cannot answer, what does that make them?

Dumber than a Knuckle Dragger?
1,763 posted on 09/23/2008 2:47:10 PM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: MrB
This viewpoint justifies abortion, euthenasia, and genocide. Those who are of little to no value to the greater, transcendent society may be purged with no moral consequences. Here's some more results of such ideology: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2083330/posts
1,764 posted on 09/23/2008 2:50:12 PM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2083330/posts


1,765 posted on 09/23/2008 2:53:10 PM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: allmendream
"Random, as a definition, includes probabilistic. Your objection is as ridiculous as saying someone who says “7 card stud is a random game” had no interest in approaching the subject honestly."

You are deliberately using the word 'random' in order to mislead people. Were you interested in accuracy, you would say that mutation is probabilistic, not 'random'.

"Some mutations are made more often than others just as some errors in speaking are more common than others."

Which is why you should not use the term 'random'.

1,766 posted on 09/23/2008 2:53:32 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: MartyK; Arthur Wildfire! March; <1/1,000,000th%
Maybe I’m having an early onset of Alzheimer’s, but I can’t seem to remember one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable.

Sounds like early Alzheimer's to me.

There's tons of technological development outside the field of biology where the ToE never even enters.

Please explain how one's opinion or belief in how humans got here is critical to manned space flight, prediction of the weather, earthquake prediction, development of imaging machines for medical diagnosis, energy production through nuclear means.

1,767 posted on 09/23/2008 2:56:57 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: MartyK

Crap. Shouldn’t post whilst being distracted. I read that as *wasn’t* indispensable.

Never mind previous post.....


1,768 posted on 09/23/2008 3:14:55 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Fichori

Heh.

The evidence supports that, you know....


1,769 posted on 09/23/2008 3:17:13 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GourmetDan
I AM deliberately using the word “random” and I will continue to do so.

A Card game is RANDOM. You can cry at me until you are blue in the face that it is “probabilistic” and I will laugh and tell you AGAIN that the definition of random INCLUDES probabilistic.

RANDOM: Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.

And your intent in using a Gibson quote? You showed two things with that little tactic. One, you are dishonest enough to take a paper about evolutionary analysis and chop a quote of it out of context. Two; that you are not intelligent enough to discern that they never even tested mutation, they assumed it based upon the concept of common descent.

If you had any sense of shame you would be embarrassed by repeatedly showing your abject ignorance of the subject. But I guess being a Geocentricist means never admitting you are losing an argument.

1,770 posted on 09/23/2008 3:33:17 PM PDT by allmendream (Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! Sa-RAH! RAH RAH RAH! McCain/Palin2008)
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To: MartyK
"Can you, or anyone out there, name one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable...

...and that can't be distorted and misrepresented in such a way as to let me claim that it has nothing to do with evolutionary theory?"

Based on your performance with the last suggestions, I doubt anyone can.

1,771 posted on 09/23/2008 6:18:40 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: js1138

“look at the actual fossil record, which includes millions of classified specimens, you will see most lineages connected by transitions much finer than the differences between dog breeds.”

Are you saying we have millions of transitional fossils, which indicate the many fine/subtle changes allegedly connecting A(naconda) to Z(ebra)?


1,772 posted on 09/23/2008 7:55:13 PM PDT by MartyK (Hey, don't blame me. BLAME EVOLUTION!)
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To: MartyK

Millions total. What I said was we have many lineages with gradations finer than that between breeds of dogs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://darwiniana.org/transitionals.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/transitional.html
http://hometown.aol.com/darwinpage/dinobirds.htm
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/03/transitional-fo.html

But what is more interesting is that over the last 150 years, evolution has predicted the finding of such fossils, and has predicted where to look for them. No other interpretation of fossils requires or predicts the finding of transitional forms or explains why they are found in certain strata and not others.


1,773 posted on 09/23/2008 10:05:39 PM PDT by js1138
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To: LeGrande
You seem hung up on this 2.1 degrees that you calculated, it isn't a constant.

Well, according to your claim the 2.1 degrees is due to the fact that the earth rotates 2.1 degrees in the 8.3 minutes it takes light to travel the 1AU from sun to earth. And so if the 2.1 degrees isn't cosntant, then either the earth has to move in or out, or the speed of light needs to change, or the rotational rate of the earth needs to change -- none of which are happening at a fast enough rate to change the 2.1 degrees significantly in either of our lifetimes! What do you mean it's not constant?

I don't think that you are capable of learning anything new that contradicts your mental map.

Well, I might believe you on that, except you've said so many things that just don't make sense and you've said some outright fallacies. For example, you claimed that the 20 arcseconds was not due to stellar aberration. But look around: WP and MP and C.S, PoA and Wolfram - and there are many more reference clearly explaining that Stellar Aberration is the name describing the 20 arcseconds of apparent angular displacement of the sun and other objects due to the earth's transverse velocity of 67K miles an hour as it orbits the sun. Stellar Aberration is unrelated to the distance of the object.

My point is that you were wrong on a simple thing like that and who knows what else you're wrong on. So I'm not so sure it's me who's incapable of learning things.

My point was that you did the calculations before you found out that the Sun was moving at over 500,000 mph. Do you also know that the galaxy that the Earth is orbiting is itself orbiting the center of the Universe at a great speed?

Now here's where it gets rich. You almost pulled the wool over my eyes. If you will recall, when you brought up the half a million miles an hour issue, I said "And I'm not certain it's a valid argument anyway - some writers seem to say that it only applies to relative velocity (which doesn't make sense to me)" -- but now it does make sense to me why all the resources I found on the net seemed to indicate that the velocity of our universe did not cause an apparent angular displacement of the sun's position.

It doesn't! Because the sun and the earth are moving through space together at half a million miles an hour -- in other words, their speed relative to eachother is only 67KMPH -- not half a million MPH -- we don't even have to worry about the higher speed.

Well how can this be? First of all, as you know, Stellar Aberration, which is caused by the observer's transverse velocity, causes the apparent position of the object being observed to be ahead (in relation to the observer's direction) of where the object actually us. Remember, driving in the falling snow - the snowflakes appear to come from in front of you.

On the other hand, Light-time correction is the result of the distance to and angular velocity of the object. But when two objects are moving in the same direction at the same speed, there is no angular velocity of the object being observed, therefore there is no Light-Time Correction.

Or let me put it another way: The apparent lag of light time correction is exactly canceled out by the apparent advance caused by Stellar Aberration when the observer is moving at the same speed and in the same direction as the object!

So I don't know whether you knew that and thought you'd pull the wool over my eyes or whether you just didn't know that. (If you doubt it to be true - let me know and I'll do an animation to demonstrate it.)

Come to think of it, I don't recall you ever admitting that you had been wrong or that you didn't know something. And I know you've been wrong about some stuff - so I rather suspect that if you knew you were wrong you wouldn't admit it to me. Which explains a lot of stuff - like why you won't answer my questions about Pluto and why you can't provide any reference from real scientists who agree with you (even though you claim that everyone at Nasa agrees with you.

And this also explains why you won't give your 2.1 degrees a name -- is it Stellar Aberration? Light-time Correction? Secular Aberration? LeGrandean Aberration? -- because if you claimed any of those (Except the last) I'd be able to point out how your claim was wrong.

So what is the deal? Did you think I wouldn't ever figure it out? (You almost pulled that one over on me!) Or did you just not know any better yourself?

In any case, the half a million miles an hour causes what is called Secular Aberration, it amounts to about 0.04 degrees but it only applies to things not moving at half a million miles an hour with us - and it doesn't apply to the Sun.

Thus, I maintain that the biggest source of apparent angular displacement of the sun for an observer on the earth is Stellar Aberration, and is about 20 arcseconds, and is due to the earth's transverse velocity of 67K mph as it orbits the sun.

Furthermore, you've said so many wrong things and as far as I can remember not once admitted that you were wrong, and you refuse to provide any scientific research that backs up your claim, the only logical conclusion that I can come to is that you made the whole thing up and don't have the integrity to admit it when you've been wrong.

But why would you do this? Because last time you said "I give. You win." my response was "At which point did you realize that your statement was foundationally incorrect?" -- of course which you would not answer, so then you came back that I was clueless and all the sudden you didn't "give" anymore. So what does this mean? Does it mean that there's one thing worse for you then to give up and that is to admit that you knew you were wrong but wouldn't admit it?

It's all clear to me now. The more we talk, the more absurd things you say. You must be making it up and for some odd reason think everyone will believe it.

Thanks,

-Jesse
1,774 posted on 09/23/2008 11:09:23 PM PDT by mrjesse (Could it be true? Imagine, being forgiven, and having a cause, greater then yourself, to live for!)
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To: MartyK; metmom
My main point is that we should make the parent the boss in education as much as possible. Parental involvement is key. As parental involvement is increased, innovations in education will be unleashed. The evolution debate is a way of arguing against parental involvement.

Speaking of innovative thinking, it's fungible. Not trying to belittle your point, but just to put it in perspective: if I were feeling snarky, I'd say that Gilligan's Island had a tremendous impact on today's understanding of science. But that would sound vicious and hostile. Please forgive my glibness this morning.

To get serious for a moment — fuzzy memory alert— but there was a philosopher I think who, prior to Darwin, believed in a kind of ‘choice based’ evolution. Now we find elements of truth in that misconception which helps flesh out Darwin's theory. Since evolution is now established as NOT being random selection, there are forces at work which we've yet to fully comprehend.

1,775 posted on 09/24/2008 2:57:37 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (Fannie + Fredie = Democrat Cronies [Dodd and Obama])
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To: js1138

“But what is more interesting is that over the last 150 years, evolution has predicted the finding of such fossils, and has predicted where to look for them. No other interpretation of fossils requires or predicts the finding of transitional forms or explains why they are found in certain strata and not others.”

I’ll grant that’s a strong point. I’m also intrigued by the intuitiveness of mutations. So let’s assume [for a moment] you won the debate. Should all parents be required to submit their kids to evolution if the parents are religiously opposed to it? Or are you confident that truth wins out through free speech in the long run?


1,776 posted on 09/24/2008 3:09:08 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (Fannie + Fredie = Democrat Cronies [Dodd and Obama])
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March

I think that if Biology (or any other science) is taught, it should be taught honestly. I don’t think students should be required to take Biology.

Chemistry or Physics would do for high school.

There is honest debat over whether teachere should respond to students’ questions about objections to evolution. I personally think that most such discussions would go pretty much the same way these threads do. They would be interpreted as attacks on religion.


1,777 posted on 09/24/2008 6:13:32 AM PDT by js1138
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To: allmendream
A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers' eyes. It's the first time evolution has been caught in the act of making such a rare and complex new trait.

And because the species in question is a bacterium, scientists have been able to replay history to show how this evolutionary novelty grew from the accumulation of unpredictable, chance events.

Looks good to me.

"I'm a BELIEVER now!"

1,778 posted on 09/24/2008 7:10:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: scarface367
Yep, now I'm sure you don't know what you're talking about.

Keepin' 'em in skool helps the unemployment rate.

Among both students and faculty.

1,779 posted on 09/24/2008 7:12:01 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
Elisha's bones didn't raise a dead man from the grave. Christ didn't rise from the dead and return 2000 years ago. Constantine the Emperor/Pope who put the Bible together was a cynical pagan. The Bible is a book of history mixed with myths, parables and stolen stories.

Are you SURE?

When you are awakened in the night by doubt, get up and re-read the books that gave you this information - it'll put you back to sleep.

1,780 posted on 09/24/2008 7:15:38 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: js1138; Arthur Wildfire! March; metmom; MrB

There is honest debat over whether teachere should respond to students’ questions about objections to evolution. I personally think that most such discussions would go pretty much the same way these threads do. They would be interpreted as attacks on religion.


When a rational person examines the evidence they come to no other conclusion. Specifically Christianity.

Looking outside of the evolution/creation debate one finds mountains more evidence.

I think the one example most striking is the Georgia ACLU demanding MY school board remove Christmas from the school calendar or face legal action.

Predictably the school board folded like a tent. This was because they didn’t understand their rights and didn’t involve parents.

Christmas as most know, is a Federal holiday.

Angry at god liberals have also sued to have ‘Under God’ removed from our pledge, crosses be removed from Federal cemeteries, and crosses be removed from town logos...in one case a town NAMED ‘the crosses’ (Las Cruces N.M.)

Another telling example is the sticker case in the state of Georgia. Reminding students evolution is not fact but theory (because the godless liberals were presenting it as fact while no other theory was presented as fact)

and those stickers were sued off the textbooks.

There’s an effort underway to force Christianity out of the public and turn this country into STRICTLY a secular nation.

Blaming this movement on Christians with statements like we’re trying to inject religion into science class merely confirms to outsiders the truth that indeed there’s a dangerous effort underway to destroy this country from within.


1,781 posted on 09/24/2008 7:16:25 AM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: js1138
...RMNS algorithms...

Methinks the horse is pushing the cart.

1,782 posted on 09/24/2008 7:18:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: js1138
If you look at the actual fossil record, which includes millions of classified specimens, you will see most lineages connected by transitions much finer than the differences between dog breeds.

No; you won't.

1,783 posted on 09/24/2008 7:19:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: tpanther
There’s an effort underway to force Christianity out of the public and turn this country into STRICTLY a secular nation.

Are you happy with the results in countries that have official religions?

1,784 posted on 09/24/2008 7:20:49 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Elsie
Keepin' 'em in skool helps the unemployment rate.

Ah, typical anti-intellectualist drivel.

1,785 posted on 09/24/2008 7:21:05 AM PDT by scarface367
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To: allmendream; GourmetDan
If you had any sense of shame you would be embarrassed by repeatedly showing your abject ignorance of the subject. But I guess being a Geocentricist means never admitting you are losing an argument.

Like Donkey facing Shrek, DG merely looks at him as he verbally blasts away.

1,786 posted on 09/24/2008 7:21:58 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
No; you won't.

Take a look at the links I posted. The crucial lineages of fish and amphibians are well connected. More importantly, evolution predicts that connecting fossils will be found and it predicts where. The results of such predictions are confirmed.

No competing theory makes this kind of prediction.

1,787 posted on 09/24/2008 7:25:10 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Or are you confident that truth wins out through free speech in the long run?

FREE speech?

Doesn't that imply "certain inalienable rights" being endowed by a CREATOR?

1,788 posted on 09/24/2008 7:26:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

http://www.skullsunlimited.com/domestic-dog-breed-skulls.htm

There are many series of fossils in which the transitions between species and even between orders are finer than the differences between dog breeds.


1,789 posted on 09/24/2008 7:29:41 AM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138; MrB; metmom

Are you happy with the results in countries that have official religions?


Another strawman projection.

When prayer WAS in school in this country, what ensued was freedom for ALL including the God-haters to the point they’ve hijacked everything....law, education, science, journalism, politics...etc. etc. etc.

Preserving religious freedom doesn’t equate to Theocracy no matter how may times you run screaming
“INQUISITION INQUISITION INQUISITION” to the courthouse.


1,790 posted on 09/24/2008 7:35:20 AM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: js1138
Are you happy with the results in countries that have official religions?

Results??


State religions
 
Roman Catholic
Argentina
Bolivia
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Liechtenstein
Malta
Monaco
Some cantons of Switzerland (state religion):
Appenzell Innerrhoden (declared "religion of the people of Appenzell Innerrhoden")
Aargau
Basel-Country
Berne
Glarus
Graubünden
Nidwalden
Schwyz
Thurgau
Uri
Vatican City (official religion)

Eastern Orthodox
Cyprus (Cypriot Orthodox Church)
Greece (Church of Greece)
This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality.
Discussion of this nomination can be found on the talk page. 

Finnish Orthodox Church has a special relationship with the Finnish state.
The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act.
The church has a power to tax her members and corporations, the majority of which is owned by them.
The church does not consider herself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect her internal workings or theology.

Lutheran
Denmark (Church of Denmark)
Iceland (Church of Iceland)
Norway (Church of Norway)
Finland: Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act. The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evengelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The church has a power to tax her members and all corporations, except those the majority of which is owned by members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in her graveyards. The church does not consider herself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have a possibility to affect her internal workings or her theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precendence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.

Anglican
England (Church of England)

Reformed
Some cantons of Switzerland (Swiss Reformed Church):
Aargau
Basel-Country
Berne
Glarus
Graubünden
Schwyz
Thurgau
Uri
Zurich
Scotland – the Church of Scotland is the national church, but is not a "state church" and has complete independence from the state in spiritual matters, thus being both established and free.[3]p.161

Old Catholic
Some cantons of Switzerland (Christian Catholic Church):
Aargau
Basel-Country
Berne

Islam
Afghanistan (State religion)
Algeria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Brunei
Egypt (State religion)
Iran (State religion)
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan (State religion)
Palestinian National Authority[4]
Qatar
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (State religion)
Saudi Arabia (Religion of the Kingdom)
Somalia
Somaliland (Religion of the nation)
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates (Religion of the Kingdom)
Yemen

Sunni Islam
Algeria
Malaysia
Maldives
Pakistan (as National-sanctioned religion)
Saudi Arabia (as state-sanctioned religion)
Somalia

Shi'a Islam
Iran (as state-sanctioned religion)

Buddhism
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)
Cambodia (Theravada Buddhism)
Kalmykia, a republic within the Russian Federation (Tibetan Buddhism - sole Buddhist entity in Europe)
Sri Lanka (Theravada Buddhism - The constitution accords Buddhism the "foremost place," but Buddhism is not recognized as the state religion. )
Tibet Government in Exile (Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism)
Myanmar- written in the 1974 constitution

Hinduism
Nepal was the world's only Hindu state, but in order to negotiate with Maoist rebels they dropped the status as a Hindu state.

Others
Israel is defined in several of its laws as a democratic Jewish state.
However, the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can relate equally to the Jewish people or religion.
The debate about the meaning of the term Jewish and its legal and social applications
(considering that it comes alongside the term "democratic") is one of the most profound issues with which Israeli society deals.
At present, Israel cannot be said to have an established religion.
However, the State of Israel supports religious institutions, particularly Orthodox Jewish ones, and recognizes
Orthodox Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Druze religious courts as official state courts for personal status matters (see millet system).
The structure and goals of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are governed by Israeli law, but the law does not say explicitly that it is a state Rabbinate.
Non-recognition of other streams of Judaism is the cause of some controversy. As of 2007, there is no civil marriage in Israel.
The United States and other countries indirectly fund religions of different denominations by granting tax-exempt status to churches and religious institutions which qualify as charitable organizations."


1,791 posted on 09/24/2008 7:37:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: scarface367
Ah, typical anti-intellectualist drivel.

Merely anti-Pseudo-Intellectual drivel.

1,792 posted on 09/24/2008 7:39:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

And which of these would you prefer over the United States?


1,793 posted on 09/24/2008 7:39:44 AM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
The crucial lineages of fish and amphibians are well connected assumed.
1,794 posted on 09/24/2008 7:40:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: tpanther
When prayer WAS in school in this country, what ensued was freedom for ALL including the God-haters to the point they’ve hijacked everything....law, education, science, journalism, politics...etc. etc. etc.

Can you point to a school supported by vouchers that includes prayer in its daily activities?

1,795 posted on 09/24/2008 7:43:47 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Elsie

Take a look at my links. Evolution predicts the finding of transitional fossils, tells us where to look, and when we look we find.


1,796 posted on 09/24/2008 7:46:07 AM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138; Arthur Wildfire! March; tpanther; MrB; Tired of Taxes; Fichori; GodGunsGuts
I personally think that most such discussions would go pretty much the same way these threads do. They would be interpreted as attacks on religion.

Only as long as the teacher doesn't call them a bunch of ignorant knuckle dragging cretards who believe the fairy tales of bronzed age goat herders.

If he doesn't allow ridicule or name calling, there's no reason it should get out of hand. Let the kids ask the questions, give a reasonable answer. Let the kids express their opinions and not judge them and then move on.

But the kind of name calling and telling people that they're stupid for not believing the current scientific interpretation and that they need to go and learn "real" science so they can come back and hold an "intelligent" conversation will certainly be interpreted as attacks on them or their religion.

It won't be interpreted as a personal attack or attack on their religion if the statements are along the lines of *Current evidence supports this ________.* Which if any scientist is really honest is all that he can say about any topic.

1,797 posted on 09/24/2008 8:00:53 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: js1138; tpanther
tpanther: When prayer WAS in school in this country, what ensued was freedom for ALL including the God-haters to the point they’ve hijacked everything....law, education, science, journalism, politics...etc. etc. etc.

js: Can you point to a school supported by vouchers that includes prayer in its daily activities?

Why'd you change the subject? What you addressed wasn't even the subject of his post.

You are aware, aren't you, that for most of the history of this country that Bible reading and prayer were part of the daily activities in schools across this country?

That's what tpanther is talking about.

1,798 posted on 09/24/2008 8:06:44 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
for most of the history of this country that Bible reading and prayer were part of the daily activities in schools across this country

And yet, somehow, no one knows how, but,

this country has never been a dreaded "theocracy".

1,799 posted on 09/24/2008 8:12:11 AM PDT by MrB (0bama supporters: What's the attraction? The Marxism or the Infanticide?)
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To: js1138; Elsie
Good morning, Elsie. JS is still trying to sell his snake oil, I see.

I have been out of the country for a while, but still find time to look in at FR.

JS, I can predict the future myself. I can tell you that all this will end some day. I can also tell you that all the suppositions in the world, and speculations in the universe will not confirm the theory of evolution.

I can say that because it ais all based on mans ideas, but it leaves out the central necessity, a beginning.

I have watched with great interest, all the spectulation and suppostions , being attached to the partical collider in Europe. Unfortunately, they speculate that they can reconstruct the universe just after the "big bang". It fails to acknowledge that according to your "science", nothing existed prior to the alleged "bang".

I realize you will immediately come back with your standard "evolution is not interested in the beginnings", yet your brother Darwin actually named his book "ON THE ORIGENS of the Species." Seems to my feeble mind that origen is synonomous with beginning.

JS, you should try and pedal your snake oil elsewhere, to someone who is willing to agree, or lacks intelligence. I doubt you will find many Christians among those on your list.

Only with an evolutionist, can you get an unresponsive response, Elsie! They prefer to attempt belittling your faith, and questioning your intelligence. They have a stake in the outcome, but don't realize they are risking eternity.

It isn't doing any good to answer his Bravo Sierra. He comes from the same place that anthropogenic global warming does. Start with a conclusion, and find a question! That's his "science"!

JS, I have a dalmation dog. He is not very much spotted, and has a solid tail. Is he still a dalmation, or is this another evolvement from necessity, according to your "theories"?


1,800 posted on 09/24/2008 8:14:06 AM PDT by WVKayaker ( "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome..." I. Asimov)
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