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Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple? ( massive carved stones about 11,000 years old )
Smithsonian magazine ^ | November 2008 | # Andrew Curry # Photographs by Berthold Steinhilber

Posted on 11/11/2008 5:08:14 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach

Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization

Six miles from Urfa, an ancient city in southeastern Turkey, Klaus Schmidt has made one of the most startling archaeological discoveries of our time: massive carved stones about 11,000 years old, crafted and arranged by prehistoric people who had not yet developed metal tools or even pottery. The megaliths predate Stonehenge by some 6,000 years. The place is called Gobekli Tepe, and Schmidt, a German archaeologist who has been working here more than a decade, is convinced it's the site of the world's oldest temple.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anatolia; blacksea; blackseaflood; bread; catalhoyuk; catalhuyuk; chalcolithic; gobeklitepe; goblekitepe; godsgravesglyphs; prehistory; sanliurfa; turkey; wheat
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Did we plough up the Garden of Eden?
First Post | October 17, 2006
Posted on 10/17/2006 6:10:35 AM PDT by NYer

Is this the world’s oldest statue? [Anatolia, Gobekli Tepe]
The First Post | November 24, 2006 | Sean Thomas
Posted on 11/26/2007 9:01:06 AM PST by SunkenCiv

Turkish Site A Neolithic ‘Supernova’
Washington Times | 4-21-2008 | Nicholas Birch
Posted on 04/21/2008 3:24:52 PM PDT by blam

Mysterious Neolithic People Made Optical Art
Discovery News | September 22, 2008 | Rossella Lorenzi
Posted on 09/25/2008 5:39:23 PM PDT by SunkenCiv


Italian Archaeologist: Anatolia - Home To First Civilization On Earth
Beku Today | 6-20-2003
Posted on 06/22/2003 9:14:54 AM PDT by blam

Ancient Stamp Dating To 5,000 BC Unearthed In Harran (Turkey)
Turkish Daily News | 10-16-2006
Posted on 10/16/2006 6:02:09 PM PDT by blam

61 posted on 11/11/2008 6:55:57 PM PST by SunkenCiv ( finally updated Saturday, October 11, 2008 !!!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

The map and pictures are at the website.

62 posted on 11/11/2008 6:58:32 PM PST by Ditter
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To: SunkenCiv’s only a model.............

63 posted on 11/11/2008 7:22:21 PM PST by ALASKA (I feel more like I do today than I did yesterday.....)
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To: Lurking Libertarian

12,000 years ago the Arabian/Persian Gulf was dry land. Up until 7,500 years ago the present day Black Sea was called the old Euxine Lake (the ancients referred to what we call the Black Sea as the new Euxine Sea after the isthmus collapsed and sea water flooded into the old lake’s basin).

The shoreline of India at one time extended out 33 kilometers further than it does today. There are flooded cities offshore, some with pyramids.

Marine archeology in India is progressing nicely though you will never hear about it from western archeologists. There is passionate disagreement between European and Indian archeology over how long humans have had established civilisations. The Indians insist it goes back hundreds of thousands of years.

64 posted on 11/11/2008 7:23:49 PM PST by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!!)
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To: SunkenCiv

I simply pointed out that we have nothing before the 2nd century BCE that
“specifically” pinpoints Ur of the Chaldees’ location, and that the late 1st
century BCE is the earliest attested statement that Abraham was not of
Chaldea, but of Damascus, Syria. Now of course, this statement by Nicholas
the historian does nothing to support the notion that Abraham was originally
from Urfa (or another nearby unknown UR), in Northern Mesopotamia.

You cannot point to a text and show me where it is “specifically stated”
that Abraham was from UR (Urfa) of Northern Mesopotamia. I have that
advantage over you with the statements made in Judith 5:5-9.

All you can do is “hypothesize,” and, as you know, hypotheses are “a dime a
dozen” in biblical studies without “hard facts” to back them up.

I am aware of all the arguments for the northern UR, but I have never seen
an ancient text (1st century CE or earlier), cited, which stated or implied
Ur lay in Northern Mesopotamia.

Even Josephus, acknowledges what Judith 5:5-9, and Eupolemus (ca. 150 BCE)
state about Chaldea being Abraham’s home:

“Now Abraham had two brethren, Nahor and Haran; of these Haran left a son,
Lot; as also Sarai and Milcha his daughters, AND DIED AMONG THE CHALDEANS,
IN A CITY OF THE CHALDEANS, CALLED UR; and his monument is shown to this
day...Now Terah hating Chaldea, on account of his mourning for Haran, they
all removed to Haran of Mesopotamia, where Terah died...”(Josephus,
Antiquities of the Jews, 1.6.5.)

I note that Josephus seems to believe that a monument of some sort was
erected to Haran’s memory and that this monument still existed in Josephus’
day. When we look at the statements by Judith 5:5-9 and Eupoleumus, both
stating Abraham was of Chaldea, there evidently existed in Josephus’ day a
Chaldean city called Ur. Tell Mugheir/Muqayyar (ancient Uru/Uriwa) did exist
in Josephus’ day, in Chaldea, so it is the most likely candidate (despite
the still later Talmud opting for Uruk/Warka, LXX Orech, Genesis’ “Erech”).
Josephus’ work was written in Greek, surely, he would not deceive his
Greek-reading audience with statements that Urfa of northern Mesopotamia is
in Chaldea ?

The evidence is quite clear, despite its being “late”, from the 2nd century
BCE to the 1st century BCE, Chaldea (Babylonia) is “specifically” stated and
presented as Abraham’s birth-place.

I will say this much about Urfa, the natives point to a shallow pool with
sacred fish, and they call it the “Lake of Abraham”. It is my
nderstanding -correct me if I am wrong- that pools with sacred fish were
generally dedicated to the Fish-goddess Atargatis (known to the Greeks of
Syria as early as the 4th century BCE). I know of nothing in early biblical
literature, identifying sacred fish with Abraham (of course the fish was
later identified with Christ, as ICHTHYS, who in turn had associations with
Abraham in the New Testament).

“Atargatis...whose usual name among Greeks and Romans was “the Syrian
Goddess” (Syria Dea, Dea Syria)...At Ascalon, Atargatis was represented as
half woman, half fish. Fish and doves were sacred to her...” (p.199,
“Atargatis,” Simon Hornblower & Antony Spawforth, Eds., The Oxford Classical
Dictionary, 3rd edition, Oxford University Press, 1996)

“Fish, Sacred. Fish, hard to classify biologically and inhabitants of the
alien world of water, had a considerable role in ancient religion...They
were kept in sanctuaries, and sometimes used to provide oracles (as at Sura
in Lycia). The most famous fish observances were connected with the Syrian
cult of Atargatis (Xen. An.1.4.9; Lucian, Syr.D.), which spread to other
areas (Syll.997 is a set of regulations for the care of the fish of this
cult at Smyrna); the priests ate the fish, which were prohibited to other
worshippers.” (p.599, “Fish, Sacred,” Hornblower & Spawforth)

My best guess, and it is only a guess, is that Urfa’s sacred fish were
originally sacred to Atargatis, “Dea Syria,” and perhaps, after Christianity
arose in this area, Christ as ICHTHYS, the fish, led to an association later
with Abraham ? If this supposition has any validity, then Urfa’s association
with Abraham via its sacred fish, is after Christianity arose in that area.
This would make for a much later “Northern” UR claim than the Chaldean UR of
Judith, Eupolemus, and Josephus.

All the best,


Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld
Walldorf by Heidelberg

65 posted on 11/11/2008 7:41:08 PM PST by Soliton (This 2 shall pass)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv
We also have to consider the climate in the area that allowed the bread basket to flourish. The Sahel in Africa once was productive and much larger, capable of supporting vigorous populations. And we also must take into account that wheat beers were often a driving force of civilization. But I digress...

And I was tempted to go off topic to a subject combining climate, agronomy, linguistics and politics. Fertilizer?
66 posted on 11/11/2008 8:48:30 PM PST by BIGLOOK (Keelhaul Congress! It's the sensible solution to restore Command to the People.)
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Comment #67 Removed by Moderator

To: SunkenCiv

I’ll get ya back: Can you imagine what that women smells like?

68 posted on 11/12/2008 4:45:41 AM PST by PjhCPA (stop flapping your gums and DO SOMETHING)
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To: SunkenCiv; Ernest_at_the_Beach
"James Mellaart".
Back in mid 70's I ended up in the hospital for a few days.
During my stay, I ended up purchasing this book along with a number of other archeology works dealing with Egypt, Near East in general.
Much that appears to be new news is really been around a long time for those that search out knowledge, as I know your are acutely aware.
69 posted on 11/12/2008 4:12:21 PM PST by Marine_Uncle (Duncan Hunter was our best choice.)
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To: nkycincinnatikid
Once there was an honored father in the city of Ur in Chaldea and his name was ‘Honored-Father’ and he made a compact with God, and God foretold that he would be the father of many nations and so his name was changed to “Father-Of-Nations”.
70 posted on 11/12/2008 4:24:29 PM PST by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed.... so how could it be Redistributed?)
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To: Arthur McGowan
I think the term they call them is “from the age of ignorance”; i.e. before Mohamed. Not much intellectual curiosity about the ‘cradle of civilization’, the evidence of which molders beneath their feet.

I still can't believe they blew up those huge thousand year old Buddha’s.

71 posted on 11/12/2008 4:26:55 PM PST by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed.... so how could it be Redistributed?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Just now got around to reading this. Fascinating stuff and thanks a million.

72 posted on 11/12/2008 4:41:46 PM PST by BOBTHENAILER (One by one, in small groups or in whole armies, we don't care how we do it, but we're gonna getcha)
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To: Soliton

Excellent work. And I envy you. Oh! To be able to visit the Cornmarket during the upcoming season.

73 posted on 11/12/2008 5:37:45 PM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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To: Marine_Uncle

Yes, exactly so, well put. Mellaart has had at least three episodes of being a fantasy merchant, which means most of his real work, such as the Catal Huyuk dig almost 50 years ago, didn’t make the mainstream until recent years (there’s a new dig there going on, started up about ten years ago). I think there’s a big fat momma statue of the neolithic that he dug up there, which has made it into art history books (I’ve seen it in a textbook from a friend’s art-schooled daughter).

74 posted on 11/12/2008 5:57:35 PM PST by SunkenCiv ( finally updated Saturday, October 11, 2008 !!!)
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To: Soliton

Hey, thanks!

75 posted on 11/12/2008 6:47:33 PM PST by SunkenCiv ( finally updated Saturday, October 11, 2008 !!!)
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Well, this topic would be the place for it. ;’)

76 posted on 11/12/2008 6:49:23 PM PST by SunkenCiv ( finally updated Saturday, October 11, 2008 !!!)
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...when danger reared it’s ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled...

77 posted on 11/12/2008 6:50:14 PM PST by SunkenCiv ( finally updated Saturday, October 11, 2008 !!!)
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To: PjhCPA
I've only got a couple more. I'm not sayin' I'm good at these:
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

78 posted on 11/12/2008 7:05:41 PM PST by SunkenCiv ( finally updated Saturday, October 11, 2008 !!!)
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To: Yehuda

“One word. Plastic.”

79 posted on 11/12/2008 7:07:06 PM PST by SunkenCiv ( finally updated Saturday, October 11, 2008 !!!)
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Comment #80 Removed by Moderator

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