Posted on 11/16/2008 11:06:12 AM PST by St. Louis Conservative
Many of the parts makers are teetering on the edge. If they go under it will stop the auto maker plants dead in their tracks. If this happens it won't matter how much of our money we throw down that well.
While I agree with much of what you say, I worked union for years at several different companies, I have to disagree that if we don't bail out GMC they will totally crash. They will reorganize after declaring Bankruptcy. Some jobs may be lost, true, but most will survive and the company will be stronger. I lost my job after years and years in the lumber industry, our closure was due to environmentalists, not failure to make a profit.
Some people on FR are violently anti-union. Yep, some unions could be better, that is true, but the people who work in them are for the most part nice people. Many of them vote Republican, in the places I worked for about half voted Republican. We did get mad and tried to stop the Union leaders from using our dues to support and promote Democrats, but it didn't work out.
I think the cost of Autos includes many environmental devices and other BS that probably costs as much as, if not more, than the Unions over blown wages and benefits do. I think it is time we clean those out of our manufacturing processes. Many serve no purpose except to control us.
The only thing about green laws is that they effect the foreign manufacturers also, where as extremely high wages and benefits only affect the UAW plants.
I think the rabid demonstration of Union hatred displayed of FR speaks very poorly of the people who indulge in it. I do not support the bailout but not because I wish to see good people thrown out of work, but because I think we need the American companies and that a bailout will finish them off. They need to go Chapter 11 and reorganize. Thanks for listening.
I suggest that the automakers ask the government(s) for a return, with interest, of all the corporate taxes they’ve paid over the years. GM just celebrated 100 of them.
Okay, then we get to ask for a refund for all the crappy cars GM foisted off on us over the years. Plus interest.
“Japanese and European carmakers are thriving.”
Not only that, but they have employees with benefits. Can you believe that?
The problems at the once big three go far beyond unions. Bad management is at the top of the list.
The US auto firms have had 35 years to adopt to a world market, but have continually planned very short term.
They sat by cranking out guzzler SUVs and short term profit, while Toyota put over 1,000,000 hybrids on the road (as an example).
Toyota now licesenses that technology to Ford and Nissan. Who do you think will have their own proprietary hybrid technology first, Nissan or Ford?
Some things we know.
1. Daimler Benz took a big bite of Big Three. They chewed a short while, and spit it back out.
2. Toyota, BMW, VW/Audi could easily buy any of the once big three. All have passed, thus far.
3. In nobody noticed, the once big three has had 35 years to adjust to world markets and higher fuel prices. They have lost market share all along.
They have also had ample time to reduce the impact of their unions, through effective management of the issue. Failed there, too.
So what is to say they will do immediately which they have failed to do in the recent past?
Um, I suppose we'll build what we need to meet that challenge if and when it comes. Are you suggesting that we simply support the autoworkers as if they were government employees in the meantime?
Nissan’s own hybrid tech is set to appear in 2009 and will replace the Prius-style licensed from Toyota that’s on cars like the Altima. I think Ford’s said theirs will appear in 2010.
I don’t blame the domestics for cranking out trucks and SUVs. Even Toyota and Nissan did that. What I do blame them for is not having the breadth of lineup that Toyota and Nissan had, especially given that they do have appropriate and competitive models in Europe - just not here.
Your post made me feel better. Thanks.
I did not write the excerpt you quoted; I posted it for discussion in the context of the thread.
I have asked, though, whether the old rationals for maintaining industrial infrastructure (primarily the need to maintain a military production base) still apply, and do they still apply to the auto industry.
Views on that are welcome.
As for your other comments, all I can say is: You’re right. You don’t know.
Of course I am. I guess I should just go and support entities that work for my defeat.
Can you imagine how they will vote after millions are thrown out of work?
And again, how does that make things any worse than they are now? At least in this scenario, a major Democrat fundraising arm will be cut off.
I mention my neighbor so some of you can understand there is a human cost to the manufacturing job losses.
And again, if the UAW was so concerned with retaining manufacturing jobs in the USA, it wouldn't continually try to kill the companies that sustain it.
It is in the country’s best interest to have an auto industry.
Why do you continue to believe that GM, Ford and Chrysler are the only companies which make cars in the USA when it is not true? No one is going to miss GM, Ford or Chrysler when they are gone because there are vastly superior product offerings made in the USA by US workers working in foreign car company factories.
While I do agree that some regulations could use some review, it still bears mentioning that companies like Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes and Mitsubishi seem to have few problems at all building cars in the USA. If they can do it and make money, then so can GM, Ford and Chrysler.
Look. I understand that the unions are being blamed by the GOP for the election defeat. Believe me, the unions do not have that sort of power anymore. The GOP is responsible for its own losses. You have McCain spouting off in Michigan about jobs not coming back-stupid. You have President Bush spouting off about the Korea trade agreement every time he goes on television. Last year Korea got millions of cars into this country while protecting their markets against US cars.
You have Repubs supporting really unfair trade agreements. I consider it surprising the GOP won Ohio in 2004 not that they lost it in 2008. consider no Repub has ever been elected without Ohio. I promise you the GOP will lose the entire Mid West for a generation if they are seen as killing the big three. This is a fact that the GOP should seriously ponder before taking action that will destroy their election chances for a generation.
You ask how does this make things worse-aside form human suffering which you obviously don’t care about. Ohio is not lost permanently to the GOP. This was one election cycle. It’s possible in 2012 to get Ohio back with a good candidate and a little work on trade by Republicans. Bring back those blue collar Reagan Democrats.
The big three are the only American car companies that make cars in this country. The foreign companies as another poster pointed out, only have final assembly in this country. By the way, they will out of business as well-because the suppliers will be gone. How can you equate Toyota (Japan) with GM (American). This is unpatriotic. I heard some financial weenie on Morning Joe ask if we should bail out the Japanese auto industry-they were sneering and laughing at working Americans except for Joe and Pat who said the American auto industry is essential to the economic health of this country. It is. If GM goes and bankruptcy means the demise of the big three not the unions- all I can say is welcome to the Republican depression. Things will get a whole lot worse for everyone.
I know how appealing bankruptcy is. I know some of you on this board believe you could get rid of the union,certain benefits etc. I wish we could. It won’t work. Study after study has shown that no one will buy a big ticket item from a bankrupt company. If GM goes into bankruptcy, it’s gone. The suppliers and dealers go out of business. Turn out the lights, the party is over. Millions of jobs go with it. This country will have an economic crisis that will make the financial meltdown look like child’s play-welcome to the Republican depression.
There are many reasons. As the big three goes so goes Detroit. They have raised taxes too much also. Mostly, the big three has been hurt by really unfair trade. Did you know the Japanese will allow only a paltry amount of American cars in Japan? Same thing in Korea and Europe. The only truly open markets are American markets. When the G20 meeting participants said no to protectionism, they meant America should not protect its own markets. All of the rest of those countries already have protection in place.
I will not dispute that there has been mismanagement, arrogant union demands and sometime poor quality in the American Auto industry in the past. However, real reforms have been made. We have a chance not just to survive but to win-to become the world’s leaders in new technology. Every auto company in the world is in big trouble. All will receive a bail out. The only country apparently that would be stupid enough to destroy an entire industry is the United States. Our economic policies or lack there of are completely ridiculous and have really hurt this country and its people.
Thanks. There are so many factors, a perfect storm.
I’m afraid so. This is a very good way of putting it-’a perfect storm’.
Madison I did not say the above-I don’t believe it. You have me confused with a different poster. I support the big three and believe auto workers are decent hardworking smart people. Few of the people bashing them on this board could do their jobs. It takes brains and skill.
Copied the wrong item earlier in my reply. This is the post I appreciated. Thanks again.
Take Care.
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