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Skip to comments.An Ugly Attack on Mormons
Posted on 12/03/2008 8:59:31 AM PST by Publius804
An Ugly Attack on Mormons
The easiest targets for an organized campaign against religious freedom of conscience.
By Jonah Goldberg
Did you catch the political ad in which two Jews ring the doorbell of a nice working-class family? They barge in and rifle through the wifes purse and then the mans wallet for any cash. Cackling, they smash the daughters piggy bank and pinch every penny. We need it for the Wall Street bailout! they exclaim.
No? Maybe you saw the one with the two swarthy Muslims who knock on the door of a nice Jewish family and then blow themselves up?
No? Well, then surely you saw the TV ad in which two smarmy Mormon missionaries knock on the door of an attractive lesbian couple. Hi, were from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! says the blond one with a toothy smile. Were here to take away your rights. The Mormon zealots yank the couples wedding rings from their fingers and then tear up their marriage license.
As the thugs leave, one says to the other, That was too easy. His smirking comrade replies, Yeah, what should we ban next? The voice-over implores viewers: Say no to a church taking over your government.
Obviously, the first two ads are fictional because no one would dare run such anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim attacks.
The third ad, however, was real. It was broadcast throughout California on Election Day as part of the effort to rally opposition to Proposition 8, the initiative that successfully repealed the right to same-sex marriage in the state.
What was the reaction to the ad? Widespread condemnation? Scorn? Rebuke? Tepid criticism?
The Los Angeles Times, a principled opponent of Proposition 8, ran an editorial lamenting that the hard-hitting commercial was too little, too late.
(Excerpt) Read more at article.nationalreview.com ...
Sorry for the cross-post.
DieHard, are you LDS, or do you have an LDS family member? I’m just asking for full disclosure here.
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:12-15
12. And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
13. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
It appears that EXPERIENCES can be deceiving...
If one believes the Bible is correct, then, by that Standard, Mormonism fails the test.
If, however, you are convinced that the Bible is either in error, been corrupted or mis-interpreted, then you are free to believe whatever you wish.
> DieHard, are you LDS, or do you have an LDS family member? Im just asking for full disclosure here.
Nope, and nope. I have met a few LDS (unavoidable here as there are many), once in a while they call around and try to convert me: when I have time I invite them in and have a yarn. But nope, I’m not LDS or any other denomination for that matter.
I am, however, considering joining the Catholic church.
Wow. I was wondering how long it would take for the “yelling” to begin.
Disclosure: I am a Latter Day Saint.
Thanks to all of Free Republic, and especially those that have given thanks and been kind to us.
Lets examine the idea of “Mormon are not Christians”
If the intended communication is that “Mormons are not Protestants or Catholics”, then absolutely correct. Although, I have lived in Georgia for a while, and you would be surprised how similar the cultures actually are.
BUT, the intended meaning is often, “Latter Day Saint’s belief in Jesus Christ is so far from what the bible teaches, that it does not qualify as belief in Jesus Christ” I would hate to be the judge of this, and the whole idea would cause anyone serious about one’s salvation to fear’ at least a little bit.
I can point out similarities of belief, the biggest being that Latter Day Saints believe the man named Jesus, born of Mary, was/is the Son of God. We reject anything that would cast doubt on Jesus Christ’s divinity.
In the minds of Mormons, that makes us Christians, BUT I can understand why some people do not agree with that line of thinking. We are, actually, more our doctrine is rather different that Catholics or Protestants. But still, much is similar.
I really question anyone who can say the line is drawn here for what is real belief in Jesus Christ on what is not.
"How many divisions does San Francisco have?"
> Im just asking for full disclosure here.
Fair enough — I have fully disclosed. How about you — are you or any members of your family LDS?
Thank you. My nephew served a Mormon Mission in New Zealand (Christ Church area).
I know that the LDS has a significant presence in your neck of the woods.
The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535541
I already disclosed up thread here. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2142186/posts?page=21#21. You might have missed it.
I am now non-denominational Christian.
Ooops, See the date?
It’s stating that a Mormon Baptism is not valid in the Catholic church. In otherwords if a Mormon wants to become Catholic, he/she must be baptised there.
I’m sure means a lot to a Mormon. Just like their Baptism after my death means a lot to me /s/
***Yep! I always wondered who came down from heaven and gave these bigots disguised as Christians the right to proclaim who is and who isn’t Christian.***
It was Joseph Smith who walked out of the woods proclaiming thaqt he had a message from God and all Christians were false and ONLY he was right and he would tell you how right he was or else you would be sorry!
Let’s not hijack the thread on to mormon doctrine.
The origional add was false and it was not ONLY mormons who voted for Prop 8 but many Christians and non Christians who knew homo marriage was just wrong. After all, 40 years ago marriage was declared unnecessary if you truly loved someone. Living together was all that was needed. The Marriage license was just a piece of paper.
Now marriage is the most important thing a person can do...but only if you are gay!
We conservatives must treat our doctrinal differences with respect, and just agree to disagree, if we are going to have an effective coalition. It is in the interest of the Left to keep us at each others throats. In fact, I wonder if some of the Mormon and Catholic bashers arent actually trolls for the Left.
Such coalitions work. I’ve participated in them. It worked in California for Prop. 8.
Not if MORMONISM is true!!
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
"If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph"
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
> I am now non-denominational Christian.
Fair enough and thanks — I had missed it.
I also forgot to disclose that I’m a Freemason (that is also in my About page). Tho’ this is not a religion, some people (wrongly) believe that it is.
“non-denominational Christian” is probably best way to describe me, too.
Catholics & Baptists (& Methodists, Presbyerians, Lutherans, Bible churches, generic evangelical Churches, along with 99% of churches who call themselves “Christian”) all profess belief in One God who created all that is, existing from all eternity in 3 Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
LDS/Mormonism does not. In the opinion of traditional theologians from all the previously mentioned groups, the LDS does not hold to this or other essential doctrines ALL Christians have for 2000 years.
In the opinion of your founder Joseph Smith, all (Chiristian) churches were “an abomination” hence, I do not know why you wish for the recognition of us abominable Christians. Be happy, be Mormon—and I won’t discriminate against you—but please don’t claim the mantle “Christian.”
Disagreeing, even strongly with another’s beliefs is NOT “bashing” except under a liberal, PC understanding of pluralistic relativism.
I saw the ad in question, and it truly was abominable, as it was a lie, and truly “bashed” (with lies) a small minority religion. That doesn’t mean Christians shouldn’t speak the truth—in love—to defend the good news of the biblical Jesus Christ.
Well; there you go!!
This just PROVES you are a Hateful Bigot who probably has a lot of secret sin in your life!
--MormonDude(But we'll take you back at any time.)
You don’t need Greek metaphysics to understand the divinity of Christ, but you do need Greek metaphysics to comprehend three in one and one in three.
The Gospel of John says nothing about what is meant in the Creed by three in one and one in three.
Genesis 13:13 Nowthe men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and
4. Before they had gone to bed,
Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.
Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
But there IS hope!!!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape.....
It's early yet...
>>Ive been witness to plenty of Mormon bashers here on FR, and they sould be ashamed of themselves.<<
I tend to agree with that. I really hate most of the teaching of Mormonism, but I also have Christian friends who are also Mormon. Heck, in my old band, I was the only non-mormon member. My boss is fourth generation Mormon.
I saw one of those ads on youtube, and they were WAY over the top and inapropriate.
If you did it very politely I have no doubt they would.
From the perspective of a Mormon, there is no difference between the hate displayed here (by some) on FR and the hate that comes from the pro-Prop. 8 protesters in the streets.
Hate is hate. The haters won't be ashamed because they've demonstrated that they know no shame. The people who should be ashamed are those who allow the hate to continue unchallenged.
>>You do know that the Catholic Church views other baptisms by Christian sects as valid don’t you?<<
My husband is a convert, yes I know.
But I’m sure that the Mormons don’t mind at all that the Catholics don’t recognize their Baptism when entering the Catholic church. Ask a few. I’m sure they don’t care at all.
You have convinced ME to change my ways!
(Can you work any miracles in the LDS Organization®?
Joseph Smith stated that God told him: "they [other churches] were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:19).Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
Provo is the most unfriendly city I’ve ever visited. I don’t know if it was a fortress though.
There is an OLD joke about a “post holocaust survival kit”. It includes the addresses of all the local Mormons and a gun. ;)
My old band rehearsed in a members garage. He was a mormon. There was TONS of foil wrapped food very well organized on his shelves.
But us Mormon-Bashers are Christians FIRST, and Conservatives SECOND.
What makes you think it takes a division to pull off a pogrom?
The temples ARE fortresses. Literally. It is a major attribute of their design. Those fences around them are not just for decoration.
I was able to tour the interior of the one in Bellevue Washington right after it was built. Those things are designed to withstand not only severe earthquakes, but also small wars and even relatively near nuke strikes.
They are actually quite impressive.
1 Kings 19:14-18
14. He replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too."
15. The LORD said to him, "Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram.
16. Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet.
17. Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu.
18. Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him." (NIV)
Hey, I don’t like your smileyface. I assume you actually meant |->
Coming onto a thread to do it is crass and less than Christian.
Our Sandyeggo pegs it perfectly with “Slash and Burn evangilization”. When you specifically come onto a thread about someone's beliefs to tell the FReepers how wrong they are, it's uncalled for.
And is why we now have “Ecumenical” and “Caucus” threads. The “Evanglization” got totally out of hand.
> Catholics & Baptists (& Methodists, Presbyerians, Lutherans, Bible churches, generic evangelical Churches, along with 99% of churches who call themselves Christian) all profess belief in One God who created all that is, existing from all eternity in 3 Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
That would be true of “Trinitarians”. Not all Christians are Trinitarians.
> LDS/Mormonism does not. In the opinion of traditional theologians from all the previously mentioned groups, the LDS does not hold to this or other essential doctrines ALL Christians have for 2000 years.
So LDS are not Trinitarians. That doesn’t make them non-Christian.
> In the opinion of your founder Joseph Smith,
THEIR founder Joseph Smith. I am not an LDS/Mormon, I am a non-denominational Christian. I haven’t decided whether I am a Trinitarian or not yet.
> all (Chiristian) churches were an abomination
The Christian churches of the day must have been behaving terribly. It has been known to happen, ay.
> hence, I do not know why you wish for the recognition of us abominable Christians. Be happy, be Mormonand I wont discriminate against youbut please dont claim the mantle Christian.
Since when was it up to you or to me to decide who gets to take up the cross and follow Jesus? Why do you seek to judge another man’s servant? This is not your call to make, Brother.
> Disagreeing, even strongly with anothers beliefs is NOT bashing except under a liberal, PC understanding of pluralistic relativism.
It is if you resort to namecalling. “Heretic” is a name. Calling people “heretics” is namecalling which is, as you know, the lowest form of argument. It is unworthy of Christians, and it is a practise usually best left to Liberals.
> I saw the ad in question, and it truly was abominable, as it was a lie, and truly bashed (with lies) a small minority religion. That doesnt mean Christians shouldnt speak the truthin loveto defend the good news of the biblical Jesus Christ.
Brother, our task is to SPREAD the good news of the biblical Jesus Christ. That is what we should be doing.
Like they did in 1890 against the EVIL of polygamy, or in 1978 against the EVIL of WHITE-only priesthood.
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI
HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
An angel tells Nephi of the blessings and cursings to fall upon the GentilesThere are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devilThe saints of God in all nations are persecuted by the great and abominable churchThe apostle John shall write concerning the end of the world. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks
2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hellyea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repented not must perish.
6 Therefore, woe be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the othereither to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.
16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things
17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.
20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.
23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.
24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.
27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was john, according to the word of the angel.
28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me.
30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.
> (Can you work any miracles in the LDS Organization®?
I dunno — ask a Mormon. I’m a non-denominational Christian, leaning toward joining the Catholic church.
> Yes, the MORMONs have been SO sweet and nice over the years to ‘fellow’ Christians!
Therefore, turn the other cheek — just like Jesus tells us to do. I would have thought THAT MUCH was obvious!
You should read the annotations provided in my original response Here.
I can point out similarities of belief, the biggest being that Latter Day Saints believe the man named Jesus, born of Mary, was/is the Son of God. We reject anything that would cast doubt on Jesus Christs divinity. [Emphasis added]
As a practicing Mormon, assuming you are Temple Worthy, you should know Joseph Smith taught ...
>>Stating that Mormons are not real Christians is not the same thing as Mormon bashing...<<
I disagree. Stating that MormonISM is not Christian is not Mormon bashing would be a true statement, but saying that Mormons are not Christian IS Mormon bashing.
I do not think Mormonism teaches Christianity, but I have Mormon friends that, according to how they articulate their faith verbally, meet the “Biblical” definition of a Christian at least in word.
Most of them, in deed, “seem” very Christian, but we all know how deceiving that can be. So can words frankly. That is why I keep my “bashing” to specifics only. Heck, I use that rule to bash both my church organization as well as myself.
This'll be good!
Yeah and the Evil Catholics had the Inquisition.
You should read some of the fun things Presbyterians said about Catholics!
Elsie, you do know that the Catholic Church and Protestant Churches were not without reproach on this subject.
2. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
4. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
“No? Well, then surely you saw the TV ad in which two smarmy Mormon missionaries knock on the door of an attractive lesbian couple. Hi, were from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! says the blond one with a toothy smile. Were here to take away your rights. The Mormon zealots yank the couples wedding rings from their fingers and then tear up their marriage license.
As the thugs leave, one says to the other, That was too easy. His smirking comrade replies, Yeah, what should we ban next? The voice-over implores viewers: Say no to a church taking over your government. “
The angry left has such a talent for playing the victim.
What they are really saying is that it is the gays who would like to take away the mormons right to vote.
This WAS a vote wasn’t it?
In the most liberal state in the US?
And the gays lost it.
Even the most liberal state in the US has decided there is no “right” to change the traditional definition of marriage.
Funny - did they do a similar attack ad on blacks?
“It was Joseph Smith who walked out of the woods proclaiming thaqt he had a message from God and all Christians were false and ONLY he was right and he would tell you how right he was or else you would be sorry!”
It is true that Mormons believe that the original Church founded by Christ became corrupted to the point that the Priesthood authority given by Christ to his Apostles and others was taken from the Earth, and a restoration was necessary. That is a foundational belief of our Church. Interestingly, in the 19th Century, it was a belief also found in mainstream Protestantism. My great-great-grandfather, who was a Methodist preacher in South Africa, wrote about the commonly held belief that the existent church at that time was a “fallen church” with a “hireling priesthood.” He was approached by Mormon missionaries in the 1850’s. He studied the Book of Mormon for a year, and decided that it did not contradict the Bible, which he knew “backward and forward,” as he put it. He thought it “illuminated” everything he knew about the Bible.
Mormon belief in the corruption, over time, of Christian doctrine is not that much different than the belief among Protestants that the Catholic Church had become corrupted, and there was, therefore, a need to break away from the authority of Rome. That is a foundational belief of Protestantism.
We Mormons also believe that the Light of Christ exists in all people to some degree, and that much truth and many good people can be found in other religions. We believe that those who believe in Christ as the Savior are Christians, even if they are not members of our Church.
Unlike some other Christian denominations, we don’t believe that good people who die without having an opportunity to accept Christ, are consigned to hell, or some other undesirable fate. We believe that all people will have a fair opportunity, in this life or the next.
We don’t accept the Nicene Creed. Someone referred to the Gospel of John for the concept of Christ’s divinity. We fervently believe in Christ’s divinity. We just don’t accept the concept of the Trinity. The Gospel of John, Chapter 17, also contains Christ’s Intercessory Prayer, in which He explains how he and the Father are “one,” and prays that all his followers will become “one” with Him and the Father in the same way — that is, perfectly unified in holiness.
There is no statement of the Nicene Creed in the New Testament. The closest thing to it is found in I John, and is called the Johannine Comma. It is now universally accepted that the pertinent language in the Johannine Comma was added by a monk, hundreds of years after Christ.
I offer the foregoing only as an explanation of our beliefs. I respect the right of others to adhere to their own beliefs, and I won’t slander you or your church for it. I would much rather have my grandchildren being raised around people who adhere to other religions that maintain decent standards — provided they aren’t badmouthing my religion — than to have them associating with secular, amoral people. We can agree to disagree, and work together to fight all the terrible things that are happening to our country and our culture, can’t we?
Just so we are absolutely clear, the Catholic Church does not recognize Mormonism as a Christian sect. While they do admire some of the actions of Mormons (and so do I) they do not qualify as Christians in that sense of the term.
And the Catholic Church is not “bashing” Mormonism by saying so, is it?
Maybe FR should add News threads. Then we could discuss the clearly bigoted ad, rather than argue about the perceived shortcomings of the victim.
Articles of Faith #6&7 state:
#6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
#7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
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