An Ugly Attack on Mormons

article.nationalreview.com ^ | December 3, 2008 | Jonah Goldberg

[Publius804]

An Ugly Attack on Mormons

The easiest targets for an organized campaign against religious freedom of conscience.

By Jonah Goldberg

Did you catch the political ad in which two Jews ring the doorbell of a nice working-class family? They barge in and rifle through the wife’s purse and then the man’s wallet for any cash. Cackling, they smash the daughter’s piggy bank and pinch every penny. “We need it for the Wall Street bailout!” they exclaim.

No? Maybe you saw the one with the two swarthy Muslims who knock on the door of a nice Jewish family and then blow themselves up?

No? Well, then surely you saw the TV ad in which two smarmy Mormon missionaries knock on the door of an attractive lesbian couple. “Hi, we’re from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!” says the blond one with a toothy smile. “We’re here to take away your rights.” The Mormon zealots yank the couple’s wedding rings from their fingers and then tear up their marriage license.

As the thugs leave, one says to the other, “That was too easy.” His smirking comrade replies, “Yeah, what should we ban next?” The voice-over implores viewers: “Say no to a church taking over your government.”

Obviously, the first two ads are fictional because no one would dare run such anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim attacks.

The third ad, however, was real. It was broadcast throughout California on Election Day as part of the effort to rally opposition to Proposition 8, the initiative that successfully repealed the right to same-sex marriage in the state.

What was the reaction to the ad? Widespread condemnation? Scorn? Rebuke? Tepid criticism?

Nope.

The Los Angeles Times, a principled opponent of Proposition 8, ran an editorial lamenting that the “hard-hitting commercial” was too little, too late.

[brytlea]

I think people generally tend to feel bashed when someone publicly disagrees with their heartfelt beliefs. I know when I was in the process of leaving the Catholic Church, I STILL didn’t like to hear people say bad things about it, even tho I disagreed with much of what the church believed. And, people tend to want to call disagreement hate.
On the other hand, I have seen occasions where heated arguments got a little ugly. But, I see that no matter what the posters are arguing about, it’s not just Mormons or religion. I myself need to always check my heart before I post, and I admit I don’t.

[Elsie]

NOW them Baptists and Presbyterians are gonna get it!!!

[greyfoxx39]

What the gays really want is for churches to be declared “hate” organizations and shut down.

Where do you find that information?

A wee bit of hyperbole here?

Some of the gays that I have known in my life I met at church, AND I might add at mormon churches.

While I don't approve of what the gays are doing, I think the tendency to demonize them overlooks the fact that they are US citizens, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters and as YET are not required to wear a gold star on their sleeve.

An awfully lot of posts on FR would appear to want to do away with their rights as citizens because they are availing themselves of First Amendment rights.

[Elsie]

But if you want to call that one, at least allow others to see it differently without condemning them and calling them non-Christian.

NIV Galatians 1:8-9
8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

The BIBLE quite accurately described how the Book of Mormon was delivered.

Don't blame ME for 'condemning' MORMONism!

[acipher]

“Then WHEN did Jesus become devine?”
Let me guess, it’s different than what you believe? That’s not that big of deal, Elsie. Practically everyone has at least a slightly different view of Jesus Christ.

You have already pointed out you feel Mormon belief in Jesus Christ is too different to count as belief in Jesus Christ. Please stop spamming that point. I, of course, disagree.

If mainstream protestantism is how Jesus Christ wants things, then I certainly hope He will accept my faith as being sufficient for His Grace to apply to me.

If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, then I certainly hope your belief is sufficient for His Grace to apply to you.

[Elsie]

NEVER once has the LDS Church said they are the ones that are responsible for the Prop 8 victory.

True; but some of it's MEMBERS sure put forth that story!!!

---

[Elsie]

Elsie, your posts are feeling like SPAM. Anti-Mormon SPAM.

BIBLE quotes and MORMON leader's quotes tend to do that...

[colorcountry]

It really is quite ironic that the gays are accusing the Mormons of hate, the Mormons are accusing the gays of hate, and the Mormons are accusing their own detractors of hate.

All these charges of hatred are simply a means of shutting down healthy debate - a vital component of free speech.

If Mormons continue to try and squelch freedom of speech, they might find THEMSELVES under charges of hate speech against the gay community.

[Elsie]

NEVER once has the LDS Church said they are the ones that are responsible for the Prop 8 victory.

 

To: Publius804

God bless the Mormons. They are the only ones willing to take on the Sodomites.

We’ve shown the gays tolerance. That isn’t good enough. They have their bathhouses and their diseases. They want to marry and adopt kids. We have taken votes on it. When they lose, they get violent or go to the courts and have the people’s will overturned.

The Mormons have immense courage and I applaud them. Almost no church will stand up to the homosexuals anymore. They should be absolutely praised for their willingness to stand against this evil.

58 posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:08:23 PM by Luke21 

 

[DelphiUser]

Stating that Mormons are not real Christians is not the same thing as Mormon bashing, though there was some real Mormon bashing during the primaries.

So stating that Jews are not people is not bashing Jews? (My apologies to any Jews who might be offended)

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ (learn before you post).

Mormons are not "Orthodox Christians" but they are most definitely Christian.

[acipher]

“True; but some of it’s MEMBERS sure put forth that story!!!”
Who? There are a lot of people on FR and I have yet to see someone who is a member do this. I am sure it has happened somewhere, but it is hardly a common occurrence.

[Elsie]

There are kernels of Christianity in Mormonism.

Of course there are!

It would not STAND without them!

(It's just that you have to get INSIDE the Organization® before you find out WHICH of the Christian teachings they do NOT believe in.)

Well; not really - you can see right in their AoF that WORKS are REQUIRED for Salvation.

[greyfoxx39]

ROTFL!

[netmilsmom]

>>If I see someone whose theology is so flawed it impedes their salvation, do I not have an obligation to tell them the truth? <<

If you explain your posititon on why you think you are right, you have done your job.

Remember, that is only your opinion. Mine is different. In my mind YOUR postition is wrong. Just because I state my position on a forum doesn’t mean I want to debate you, it means that I am stating my position. When you continue to tell me how wrong I am, you are overstepping what you need to do. As a Christian, you have spread the Gospel. You think your position is right, I think mine is.

Let the Lord sort it out.

[DelphiUser]

Mormons have cities?

Who knew!!

: )

The citizens all have the same last name, and parents...</Joke>

[broncobilly]

Elie, I believe you are a very contentious person. There is nothing admirable about your anti-Mormon obsession.

[netmilsmom]

I think that people tend to feel bashed when a group is written about and others feel it is their job to tell that group how wrong they are, no matter the subject of the thread.

SJackson said it perfectly and this thread is an example. This thread is not about dogma and should not be taken as an opportunity to debate that.

[Enosh]

“So stating that Jews are not people is not bashing Jews?”

This is a dishonest distortion. Nobody ever said Mormons are not people. The argument is that they are not Christian.

Further, to say that a Jew is not a Christin is not only true, it is also not an insult. They don’t claim to be.

[DelphiUser]

Perhaps you didn’t go on the threads where it was.

From a current Mormon, be aware that CC is a well known anti, she was making a funny.

[acipher]

Last I checked, mainstream Christianity believed:

Christ’s grace is what saves people and to qualify for grace you must:
- Confess belief in Jesus Christ(they like you to sign your name)

Do Mormon’s claim something different. Well yes, but “Confess belief in Jesus Christ” is still a requirement for Grace. A work in the strictest sense.

Mormon’s believe the following:

Christ’s grace is what saves people and to qualify for grace you must:
- Confess belief in Jesus Christ
- Believe enough that you repent of your sins
- Be baptized of water
- Be baptized of Spirit(Gift of the Holy Ghost)
- Endure to the end(all sorts of stuff fit in the category)

BUT it is still Christ Grace that saves, but there are requirements for Grace to apply, just like mainstream Christianity.

[Elsie]

It may surprise you, but Mormons are not even comfortable calling themselves Mormon, since the word “Mormon” originated as a derogatory nick name.

LDS.ORG says it a bit different:

• When referring to Church members, the term “Latter-day Saints” is preferred, though “Mormons” is acceptable.

 

• The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/style-guide

[Zakeet]

It may surprise you, but Mormons are not even comfortable calling themselves Mormon, since the word “Mormon” originated as a derogatory nick name. Mormons are continually being counsel led to try to use the full name of the Church as much as possible. Unfortunately, it is convenient to have a short name, so the use of the word “Mormon” persists.

I knew that.

However, the derogatory connotation left well over a century ago. The term "Mormonism" seems to be almost universally used and accepted to denote the faith instituted by Joseph Smith. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has trademarked the name Mormon in several jurisdictions so they can control its use whenever possible -- and they use it quite a bit in their literature and commercial advertisements. And I have never known a person in the Utah sect who objected to its use.

On the other hand, I have several friends who are members of the second largest LDS sect, the Community of Christ -- formerly the Reorganized Latter Day Saints, and they strongly object to being called Mormons, and will quickly correct anyone who does so. They have also recently taken exception to being referred to as "Latter Day Saints".

As you probably know, the term "Christian" literally means "little Christ" and was used in the first century as a derogatory term for people who followed Jesus. It was quickly accepted by believers and today is regarded as a badge of honor by His followers to be called "Christian".

[DelphiUser]

It is up to God to judge our hearts. But we have to settle our theological disputes here on earth. That was the motivation behind the Nicene Creed. Are we going to throw that away? Are we going to be silent while heresies pass themselves off as Christian? Of course not.

Please explain to me why men need to settle Theological disputes and not God.

Please explain to me how men, without God's assistance settle these disputes.

Last question is someone who believes in Jesus, but has a diff rent understanding than you do "passing themselves off" or do they really believe?

[Elsie]

Let me guess, it’s different than what you believe?

Let me state that you did NOT answer the question of WHEN Jesus became divine.

[RobRoy]

Yep. Probably THE biggie.

[netmilsmom]

>>So; Ugly Mormons used in a title is NOT sufficiant cause for ANY comments on MORMONism? <<

FReepers normally read the article. You kind of get slammed for just posting about the title.

And no, the word Mormon should not be an instant invitation to debate dogma.

Just as Pope, Rosary or Mary should not be as well.

[Elsie]

Please stop spamming that point.

Harry Truman once said:

"If you can't stand the heat; get out of the kitchen."

St. Paul said:

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
 13.  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 

 

[brytlea]

Well, the Lord WILL sort it out eventually (and fwiw I think we probably are all wrong about some thing or other).
But, if one puts their position on a forum, they should expect debate, whether they want it or not. I don’t really like debating religion myself, so I rarely stake out an opinion (I don’t think this is the place to spread the Gospel, not because I think it’s inherently wrong, only that I don’t think I do a good job of it).

[DelphiUser]

It is not bigotry to observe differences between different teachings, or to compare them to a standard - in this case, the Bible. Mormonism is dramatically different than Christianity (even in its disparate forms) in what it teaches about Jesus Christ and the trinity, heaven, hell, salvation, the Devil, justification, atonement, sanctification, etc., etc., etc.

Please show me where the word Trinity appears in the KJV of the Bible... Mormons believe in the Godhead which does appear there.

That said, I hope you follow all that you know and do your best with it.

[RobRoy]

Yep. Probably THE biggie.

In fact, the BIG difference between Christianity and literally ALL religions on the earth (Ignoring the obvious stuff) is that it clearly teaches that your “eternity” and success at reaching it is not based on your efforts, but someone elses - Jesus’. Grace is the foundation (beyond God himself) on which Christianity exists and flourishes. It literally frees you to do good, not to receive some reward, but becuase it pleases your Father and, as you get to know Him better, you simply want to! No other religion includes FULL grace. Either it all depends on you, or it is a little from you and a little from your god.

[af_vet_rr]

All these charges of hatred are simply a means of shutting down healthy debate - a vital component of free speech.

There's a lot more truth to that than some are willing to admit. A big part of the problem is that you had one group of people in one state pushing a lot of money into another state to influence a state proposition.

It doesn't even matter if it was Mormons - it was a group of people from one state responsible for the majority of out-of-state money involved in fighting a proposition in another state. Anytime that happens, it's going to be ugly, and you'll have people accusing others of hatred.

Hell, I'd be pissed off if some group in another state tried to get involved in any local or state elections in my state. Even if I agreed with that group, I wouldn't want them trying to influence any elections in my state. It's bad enough as it is with the various groups trying to influence the national elections.

If it's not in the US Constitution, states need to decide on their own, and not have outsiders trying to influence local or state elections or propositions.

[Elsie]

Mormons are not "Orthodox Christians" but they are most definitely Christian.

Thank GOD you are here!

I was the ONLY one SPAMMING the thread. You can take over, for my afternoon is SHOT!

[DelphiUser]

Um, where is it in the Nicene Creed that we have to insult and berate those that do not share our doctrinal beliefs?

I recite the Creed every Sunday. I remember the words “I believe....” not “You must believe....’

Guide and teach not slash and burn.

Wise words, thanks!

[Elsie]

Elie, I believe you are a very contentious person. There is nothing admirable about your anti-Mormon obsession.

broncobilly; I believe you are a very deceived person. There is nothing admirable about your anti-ELSIE obsession.

[brytlea]

You pose an interesting question. If someone believes Jesus was a great prophet but not the Son of God, are they Christian?

[Elsie]

This thread is not about dogma and should not be taken as an opportunity to debate that.

I guess if all the PRO-Mormonism folks would leave; I'd have nothing to respond to; would I?

[RobRoy]

God hates sin. He also tells us to hate sin. I think hate is a good thing when aimed at the right target.

I suppose it is like a gun. It all depends on how you use it.

[Elsie]

Mormon’s believe the following:

I posted your AoF.

Isn't THAT a true statement of what a MORMON must believe?

[netmilsmom]

>>But, if one puts their position on a forum, they should expect debate<<

Why? Because that’s what you think?

I think differently. I think that when someone posts something about a religion, be it how the gays are targeting LDS or how the Pope is wearing red shoes today, that poster should not have to defend his/her beliefs. It’s not an invition to debate. It shouldn’t be. It’s not about Dogma. Nor is it meant to be.

I can’t imagine anywhere on FR, one of the Jewish FReepers posting about the events in Israel and having to defend why Jesus is not his/her savior. It isn’t done nor should it be. The LDS and Catholics should be afforded the same luxury.

[Elsie]

BUT it is still Christ Grace that saves, but there are requirements for Grace to apply, just like mainstream Christianity.

Oh?

What are those??

The MORMON ones vs the Christian ones

[netmilsmom]

>>I guess if all the PRO-Mormonism folks would leave; I’d have nothing to respond to; would I? <<

Well, it shows your colors that’s for sure.

[RobRoy]

>>You pose an interesting question. If someone believes Jesus was a great prophet but not the Son of God, are they Christian?<<

The answer is quite simple: No.

C.S. Lewis pontificates on the point very effectively in “Mere Christianity”. The biggest problem is this: If you think a guy was a great teacher, but you do not believe he was God, yet one of the things that he taught was that he is God, is that not a bit of an intellectual conundrum for you? As lewis points out, Jesus was either God or a lunatic. He left no room to be seen as "just" a great teacher.

[Zakeet]

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ ... Mormons are not "Orthodox Christians" but they are most definitely Christian.

Muslims believe in Jesus Christ, but they aren't Christian.

Please read my responses on this thread wherein I list some of the enormous differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity HERE and HERE and let me know where I am mistaken.

[Elsie]

Last question is someone who believes in Jesus, but has a diff rent understanding than you do "passing themselves off" or do they really believe?

Of COURSE you guys 'really believe'!

WHO ever said you didn't??

Like I told my wife, the last time she got us lost in the woods while I was driving; "Well I believed that the last turn I made was right."

[traviskicks]

LOL

[DelphiUser]

I doubt it since I am one of the most outspoken critics of Mormon theology on this board. I've been on both sides of this issue and no one has ever threatened or persecuted a Mormon on this site. Questioned the claims of Mormonism? Well, yes certainly - that happens all the time.

When were you ever on our side of this issue? (Links please)

Neat how you identify yourself as one of the persecutors, then claim persecution is not happening.

I have been attacked on this forum, had my morals, intent parentage, intelligence etc. not just questioned, but been called a liar about what I believe, damned to hell, called a demon from the pit and been condemned in every way imaginable.

With all due respect, you are not in a position to speak on whether or not Mormons are persecuted on FR.

[colorcountry]

God hates sin. He also tells us to hate sin. I think hate is a good thing when aimed at the right target.

You are right. But what I was pointing to was the practice of charging hatred to squelch the voicing of opinions and ideas. Gays are using charges of "hatred" to make us all accept their lifestlye. Minority groups often use charges of "hatred" as a means to take advantage of our guilt. Mormons are using claims of "hatred" when there is any oppostition to their theology. This isn't what Christ meant, is it?

[RobRoy]

Actually, if one puts their views on a forum they should, in fact, expect debate. That is unless it is DU. In which case, if they disagree, the more eloquent your case the better your chances of being banned.

Debate is most of the reason for this sort of forum.

[Elsie]

Please show me where the word Trinity appears in the KJV of the Bible...

Show ME where ANY of your Temple Rites® appear in ANY of your Scriptures!

[Elsie]

Mormons believe in the Godhead which does appear there.

The GODHEAD with TWO physical bodies?