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An Ugly Attack on Mormons
article.nationalreview.com ^ | December 3, 2008 | Jonah Goldberg

Posted on 12/03/2008 8:59:31 AM PST by Publius804

An Ugly Attack on Mormons

The easiest targets for an organized campaign against religious freedom of conscience.

By Jonah Goldberg

Did you catch the political ad in which two Jews ring the doorbell of a nice working-class family? They barge in and rifle through the wife’s purse and then the man’s wallet for any cash. Cackling, they smash the daughter’s piggy bank and pinch every penny. “We need it for the Wall Street bailout!” they exclaim.

No? Maybe you saw the one with the two swarthy Muslims who knock on the door of a nice Jewish family and then blow themselves up?

No? Well, then surely you saw the TV ad in which two smarmy Mormon missionaries knock on the door of an attractive lesbian couple. “Hi, we’re from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!” says the blond one with a toothy smile. “We’re here to take away your rights.” The Mormon zealots yank the couple’s wedding rings from their fingers and then tear up their marriage license.

As the thugs leave, one says to the other, “That was too easy.” His smirking comrade replies, “Yeah, what should we ban next?” The voice-over implores viewers: “Say no to a church taking over your government.”

Obviously, the first two ads are fictional because no one would dare run such anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim attacks.

The third ad, however, was real. It was broadcast throughout California on Election Day as part of the effort to rally opposition to Proposition 8, the initiative that successfully repealed the right to same-sex marriage in the state.

What was the reaction to the ad? Widespread condemnation? Scorn? Rebuke? Tepid criticism?

Nope.

The Los Angeles Times, a principled opponent of Proposition 8, ran an editorial lamenting that the “hard-hitting commercial” was too little, too late.

(Excerpt) Read more at article.nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: christians; gaymarriage; homosexualagenda; ldschurch; mormon; mormons; prop8; samesexmarriage
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To: broncobilly; Elsie
Mormons do not call other Christians non-Cristians if the do not believe in the D&C. Understand the difference?

Yet Mormons call fundamentalistMormons "non-Mormons" if they DO believe in D&C 132? Imagine that. (What a strange & topsy-turvy world that is)

351 posted on 12/03/2008 3:21:37 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Admin Moderator

thanks


352 posted on 12/03/2008 3:29:53 PM PST by samtheman
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To: Colofornian
You seem to fashion yourself as an expert on Mormon theology, therefore, let me ask you this, what does it mean “after all we can do” according to Mormon doctrine? Please state the church's view not your opinion please.

Also, as far as the saved by grace argument, how do you explain the “faith without works is dead” scriptures & the like?

2 Chr. 15: 7 Be ye strong . . . for your work shall be rewarded.
Ps. 28: 4 (Rev. 2: 23) Give them according to their deeds.
Ps. 62: 12 (Prov. 24: 12, 29; Rom. 2: 5-11) renderest to every man according to his work.
Eccl. 12: 14 God shall bring every work into judgment.
Jer. 17: 10 (Jer. 32: 19) to give every man according to his ways.
Micah 6: 8 do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly.
Matt. 5: 6 they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness.
Matt. 5: 16 that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father.
Matt. 7: 12 whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.
Matt. 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Matt. 13: 23 received seed into the good ground . . . beareth fruit.
Matt. 16: 27 (1 Cor. 3: 8; Alma 9: 27-28; D&C 138: 59) shall reward every man according to his works.
Matt. 25: 40 as ye have done it unto one of the least of these . . . ye have done it unto me.
John 3: 21 he that doeth truth cometh to the light.
John 8: 39 If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me.
Acts 10: 35 he that . . . worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Rom. 2: 13 doers of the law shall be justified.
2 Cor. 5: 10 receive . . . according to that he hath done.
Gal. 6: 4 let every man prove his own work.
Gal. 6: 7 whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Eph. 2: 10 created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
Eph. 5: 9 fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness.
2 Tim. 3: 17 perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Titus 3: 8 be careful to maintain good works.
Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will.
James 1: 22 be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only.
James 1: 27 Pure religion . . . is this, To visit the fatherless.
James 2: 22 by works was faith made perfect.
James 2: 26 faith without works is dead.
James 4: 17 him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not.
1 Pet. 1: 17 (Rev. 20: 12-13; 1 Ne. 15: 32; Mosiah 3: 24; Alma 33: 22; D&C 19: 3; D&C 76: 111; D&C 137: 9) Father . . . judgeth according to every man’s work.
1 Pet. 2: 12 your good works . . . glorify God.
2 Pet. 1: 5 add to your faith virtue.
1 Jn. 3: 18 let us not love in word . . . but in deed.
1 Jn. 3: 22 we receive of him, because we keep his commandments.
Rev. 22: 14 blessed are they that do his commandments.

And then finally, please explain how your interpretations are correct while in direct contradiction w/ other Christian religions who read the same Bible & believe in the same God.

353 posted on 12/03/2008 3:36:50 PM PST by Reno232
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To: MeanWestTexan
That said, I saw too many Mormons confuse dislike of RINO Romney with “Mormon bashing.”

BINGO!!!!!!

354 posted on 12/03/2008 3:40:45 PM PST by Osage Orange (Molon Labe)
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To: colorcountry; DieHard the Hunter
Thank you. My nephew served a Mormon Mission in New Zealand (Christ Church area).

I know that the LDS has a significant presence in your neck of the woods.


This is your idea of full disclosure? ROTFLOL!
355 posted on 12/03/2008 3:44:51 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Let’s not hijack the thread on to mormon doctrine.

Not to worry mate, no Mormon doctrine has been posted.
;-)
356 posted on 12/03/2008 3:47:38 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian
Not if you buy into 2 Nephi 25:23: ...saved by grace AFTER ALL WE CAN DO... According to this thought, grace is an after-burner that ONLY kicks in after you've done EVERYTHING you can do...everything spiritually... ...everything morally... ...everything physically... ...everything emotionally... ...everything relationally... So, have you done EVERYTHING you can do?

Very good post.

A cult cannot be in control unless it can have power over its members - hence, the Grace of Christ's sacrifice "gets in the way."

357 posted on 12/03/2008 3:54:52 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: broncobilly

In what universe is that?


358 posted on 12/03/2008 3:55:40 PM PST by svcw (Great selection of Christmas gift baskets: http://baskettastic.com/)
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To: DelphiUser
This is your idea of full disclosure? ROTFLOL!

I wonder if I will receive an apology from you - I won't be holding my breath....Read post #21. (which was my very first post on this thread).

Oh shoot, and you must have also missed post #111. You're slipping DU. I thought you had much better reading comprehension skills.

359 posted on 12/03/2008 3:56:17 PM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Reno232; Colofornian; Elsie
You seem to fashion yourself as an expert on Mormon theology, therefore, let me ask you this, what does it mean “after all we can do” according to Mormon doctrine?

Huh?

You're Mormon - why don't you tell us?

Your post is right out of Elsie's "Mormon Guide to Distract the Argument" and your post is:

"You Play Defense For Awhile!"

360 posted on 12/03/2008 3:57:32 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: AnalogReigns; DieHard the Hunter
Be happy, be Mormon—and I won’t discriminate against you—but please don’t claim the mantle “Christian.”

Reign in the insults there, DieHard says he's not a Mormon, I am and you got the doctrine, and the time-line wrong, The "Trinity" is what we don't believe in, and until The trinitarians got Constantine to go with them, Arianism was the norm.

Go to my page here and read the sections on The Trinity and the Arian Controversy, and lastly Hippolytus

Here is a summation from the bottom of Hippolytus:
So between the time that Hippolytus died in 236 and the Council at Nicea in 325 AD the view of the church swung from three entities acting as one God to one God made up of three manifestations. This is really not a HUGE change when you think about it, but it has many important ramifications.
Also note that I am not just quoting "Mormon Scripture" in these sections, I link to Catholic enclyclopedia on-line for most of this, and other on line references for the rest.

We can and do make a doctrinal case for our opinion, those who refuse to look at it just look juvenile.
361 posted on 12/03/2008 4:06:02 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: SkyPilot

No, he made a comment. I was asking him to explain that comment. Are the questions too hard to answer? You constantly ask Mormons to explain their beliefs, which we do on a regular basis. When we ask for you to explain your beliefs, all you can do is come up with “You Play Defense For Awhile!”?

I would think you would be proud of your beliefs & be willing to explain them rather than hide behind some nebulous guide to distract the argument.

There are lurkers here that not only look for our explanations, but yours as well. I asked questions. I would think they would be relatively easy to answer. Plain & simple.


362 posted on 12/03/2008 4:10:23 PM PST by Reno232
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To: netmilsmom; colorcountry
>>You do know that the Catholic Church views other baptisms by Christian sects as valid don’t you?<<

My husband is a convert, yes I know.
But I’m sure that the Mormons don’t mind at all that the Catholics don’t recognize their Baptism when entering the Catholic church. Ask a few. I’m sure they don’t care at all.


Speaking as a Mormon, nope it does not bother me at all, nor do Baptists not accepting my Baptism, nor Calvinist, nor Mennonites...


363 posted on 12/03/2008 4:26:41 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Reno232; Colofornian
No, he made a comment. I was asking him to explain that comment.

OK - you "made a comment" too. I haven't read every post on the thread, but I read yours. Explain "After All You Can Do" vis a vis the Grace of Christ and His words "It is Finished - John 19:30" for me.

Is that too hard?

You constantly ask Mormons to explain their beliefs, which we do on a regular basis.

HA!

No you do not!

You call every critic a "bigot" or a "hater", you contradict scripture, deny Mormon heresy, and then point fingers.

When we ask for you to explain your beliefs, all you can do is come up with “You Play Defense For Awhile!”?

You are reacting to me calling BS with your post. Now, you multiply the error.

I would think you would be proud of your beliefs & be willing to explain them rather than hide behind some nebulous guide to distract the argument.

You bet.

Ravi is a friend of mine.

Here is what I believe:

Ravi Zacharias - The Existence of God

Ravi reached out to the Mormon church, and spoke in Salt Lake. The leaders of Mormonism cynically used his appearance to try and justify their power. They reminded me of Pharisees in Christ's time.

There are lurkers here that not only look for our explanations, but yours as well. I asked questions. I would think they would be relatively easy to answer. Plain & simple.

You don't only "ask questions" as an innocent lamb, so drop that defense. You are a Defender of Mormonism, and it cannot be logically defended.

Let me put a stake in your argument. Joe Smith (your "prophet") took sexual pleasure in wives of men who followed him who were married to these same women!

If you are so blind to follow that - then you deserve your fate.

364 posted on 12/03/2008 4:39:52 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: greyfoxx39; af_vet_rr; colorcountry
I can just hear the howls if a California group pushed a lot of money into Utah to influence THEIR laws!

That may be, but there are Mormons in California. Their participation is as legitimate as the NRA, the AARP, or any other advocacy group. Perhaps unusual only in the sense that it's coming directly from a religious group, rather than an affinity group.

365 posted on 12/03/2008 4:44:31 PM PST by SJackson (http://www.jewish-history.com/emporium/)
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To: Elsie
How do you feel about ambiguity?

I haven't decided...
366 posted on 12/03/2008 4:51:41 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Jibaholic
The world hates righteousness, and when I was a part of the world I hated righteousness too.

Not all that is hated is righteous.
367 posted on 12/03/2008 4:53:21 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: MeanWestTexan

> As a mason, I will say he boldly stole the fraternity initiation and turned it into a religion.
>
> Pretty crappy thing to do to the fraternity for many reasons. Not only an oath-breaker, but continues to tar the fraternity with people who think it is a religion.

I guess I need to respond to this on two levels.

As a Mason I am bitterly disappointed that Brother Joseph Smith thought our Masonic birthright to be something that he could treat cheaply and shabbily.

You and I both swore the same Obligations that he did: in his case he probably took the Antient Obligation — something not to be taken lightly. And it would appear that he broke those Obligations, if I am to believe this material (I do).

Crikey! On a Masonic level Joseph Smith would be a wilfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth and totally unfit to be received into any warranted Lodge or society of men who prize honor and virtue above the external advantages of rank and fortune.

To say nothing of the Antient penalties.

I do not know of any Mormons who are active Freemasons: there are none in my Lodge. I do not doubt that there must be some in the wider Brotherhood. If so, it must be somewhat embarrassing for them!

There would be no barrier to them joining, naturally, because they believe in God.

My response to this as a Christian is that I need to leave the judging of Joseph Smith to God. Not for nothing does Jesus advise us not to take Oaths: I believe it is because doing so can make you obligated in ways that can make your Christian walk difficult.

I have no difficulty keeping my Masonic oaths, but obviously Joseph Smith did. And by promising to keep secrets that he did not keep, he bore false witness.


368 posted on 12/03/2008 5:01:37 PM PST by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: Elsie
It seemed to work out for Jesus...

Elsie, I know Jesus, and you are not Jesus Christ.
369 posted on 12/03/2008 5:03:35 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Jibaholic
Arianism and other faiths that reject the divinity of Christ are heretical. That includes Mormonism.

You sir are tragically mistaken, We believe most fervently in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
370 posted on 12/03/2008 5:06:12 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
The Mumbai terrorists asked many of the people they were about to murder what their religion was. If they answered "Muslim" they were set free. That is a direct indictment of the MSM's claim that the terrorists were "Indiscriminate." No, they were very discriminate.

The Jews were singled out for torture, and even one of the morticians said he was horrified when he had to view the bodies.

The people who answered "Christian" were slaughtered. If they answered "Mormon" the terrorists would have (maybe) thought they were Christian, but definitely not Muslim, so they would have been safe. BUT - that kind of judgment means the Judges were more ignorant than potted plants.

I am sure the Muslim murderers "hated." It wasn't even "righteous."

It still remains, however, that Mormonism is a cult that has distorted scripture and must be opposed. It is not the Truth, and never has been. It is enslaving people to Hell, and to empower it is evil, wicked, and terrible.

371 posted on 12/03/2008 5:06:24 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: Elsie

> Iff’n you ain’t a SLC based believer in the BoM and some of the Bible and the D&C’s and the Living Prophet®, then you AIN’T a ‘real’ MORMON and do NOT try to pass yerself OFF as one!

1) I don’t take orders from you, Elsie
2) I defy you to show me where I have ever claimed to be a Mormon
3) I expect your apology


372 posted on 12/03/2008 5:07:45 PM PST by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: netmilsmom
No, this is the Apostle’s Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead;

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.

Amen.

Catholics say that at the beginning of the Rosary.


As a Mormon, I only have a problem with the part in red, the rest is a bit old and stilted, but could be taught in a Mormon church without the batting of an eye.
373 posted on 12/03/2008 5:11:25 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: SJackson

I’m not saying the Mormons in California don’t have a right to get involved. I was commenting on the fact that the majority of out-of-state money that was involved was from Utah, and it was a lot of money. Those Mormons in Utah that got involved, whether financially (donations) or through other means, would probably not have been happy if millions of dollars poured in from California to fight or support a proposition in Utah.


374 posted on 12/03/2008 5:13:51 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr

I’m sure they wouldn’t be pleased. Few activists for any cause embrace their oppositions tactice. This entire thread has gotten away from the topic, a blatently anti-Mormon ad. Internet, what can you do, but shame on the stations that ran it.


375 posted on 12/03/2008 5:22:13 PM PST by SJackson (http://www.jewish-history.com/emporium/)
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To: DelphiUser

Yes, but he is only one God among many. Perhaps even you will join him some day. Pride=wanting to be like God.


376 posted on 12/03/2008 5:24:58 PM PST by Jibaholic ("Those people who are not ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants." --William Penn)
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To: DelphiUser

I never said it was. I said the world hates righteousness.


377 posted on 12/03/2008 5:25:53 PM PST by Jibaholic ("Those people who are not ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants." --William Penn)
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To: MeanWestTexan
As a mason, I will say he boldly stole the fraternity initiation and turned it into a religion.

Pretty crappy thing to do to the fraternity for many reasons. Not only an oath-breaker, but continues to tar the fraternity with people who think it is a religion.


As my father would tell you (He was a Mason before he Joined the LDS) there are some resemblances, but there are also many differences. BTW that is as much as he would say about the Masonic ceremony because he gave his word not to tell about it, which is more than I can say for those who post all they can remember about LDS temple ceremonies here.

As a mason, what is your opinion of the Masons in the Mob who killed Joseph Smith who ignored his plea "Is there no help for the Widow's Son?". what do you think of them?

I wold also point out that that is why Mormons do not join Masonic lodges. (My uncles are still asking me to.)
378 posted on 12/03/2008 5:26:14 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: SJackson

>>While I suppose it’s possible the discussion here pleases Mormons, my suspicion it that a politically conservative Mormon unfamiliar with the site reading the reaction to these ads isn’t anxious to sign up.<<

You’ve got that right.
And taken out of context by those looking to hurt FR.

If someone looking up glass confessionals on a Google search, came upon the thread where the Catholic practice of confessing to a priest was questioned in the second reply, I suspect, that person would not come back.


379 posted on 12/03/2008 5:27:37 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Elsie; acipher
What's the MORMON teaching on WHEN Jesus became devine?

Before anything was created... (Jesus is the creator of all things.)
380 posted on 12/03/2008 5:28:58 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

Thank you.


381 posted on 12/03/2008 5:31:54 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: broncobilly

Mormonism is not Biblical by any means. It’s not a matter of interpretation. They follow Joseph Smith and HIS version of the Bible, which is ungodly to say the least. They don’t believe in the Trinity either, from what I have gathered from remarks here. To them, Jesus is satan’s half-brother. Does that sound biblical to you?


382 posted on 12/03/2008 5:34:07 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: DieHard the Hunter

The truth is not “un-Christian.”


383 posted on 12/03/2008 5:34:42 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: netmilsmom

Well, I kinda figured she didn’t...


384 posted on 12/03/2008 5:35:09 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: svcw; DieHard the Hunter
DieHard: What if the Mormons are right? Wouldn’t that put you in an extremely perilous position?

svcw: Not really because they say after we die we get a second chance to believe.

Cough, um it's every one will get a chance, after death is only if you didn't have a chance to learn the truth here. By debating us, you kind of missed that boat. (just thought you ought to know.)
385 posted on 12/03/2008 5:35:32 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Osage Orange

thank you. I appreciate that. M


386 posted on 12/03/2008 5:36:03 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Elsie
Point to some HATE that we can see!

There truly are none so blind...
387 posted on 12/03/2008 5:36:33 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: SJackson

If we took the religious and homosexual aspect out of the debate, it’d be interesting to see how people feel about a lot of money coming from out of state that is targeted towards influencing another state’s proposition/elections.


388 posted on 12/03/2008 5:37:48 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: Elsie

Revelation


389 posted on 12/03/2008 5:41:15 PM PST by lady lawyer
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To: DelphiUser

So you are saying that if I ask questions and don’t follow the lds chant I do not get another chance.
Huh? My uncle the bishop says all I have to do is be a good person and I’ll get a second chance.
Oh well.


390 posted on 12/03/2008 5:41:21 PM PST by svcw (Great selection of Christmas gift baskets: http://baskettastic.com/)
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To: Elsie

Yes, and yes.


391 posted on 12/03/2008 5:41:46 PM PST by lady lawyer
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To: af_vet_rr
It would depend on the issue, gun rights, pro life advocacy, great. Amnesty, horrible. We're all hypocrites to some degree. Some more than others.

On the out of state issue though, while I see your point, national advocacy groups are a fact of life. If you tried to regulate them, they'd simply function through subsidiaries on a state level. Which most have anyway.

Better it's in the open, and if the gays want to criticize the LSD or Catholic Church, fine. If they're over the top, we can criticize them (when we can get a word in edgewise), when they interrupt services or trespass they should be arrested. And however unpopular it might be, the Churchs involved should be involved in prosecution.

392 posted on 12/03/2008 5:43:23 PM PST by SJackson (http://www.jewish-history.com/emporium/)
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To: Publius804
From the original article in the LA Times:
“The artistic director of the California Musical Theatre resigned because of pressure after it was revealed he gave $1,000 to a pro-Proposition 8 group.”

I was once engaged to a nationally known violist. According to her, she was about the only non-queer member of the symphony.

Why the PervsR’Us crowd came to so dominates the arts scene has always escaped me. But, knowing what she told me, I can see why being discovered to have not supported the “Queer Qrowd” might make retention of a prominent position in the arts a wee bit of a problem.

393 posted on 12/03/2008 5:43:42 PM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: FormerLib

“What we are seeing after Proposition 8 is another thing entirely. This sounds like it’s building towards an anti-Mormon pogrom.”

Please! Do preface such posts with a keyboard alert.

Your post got me to thinking about what a war between the Mormons and the Poofters would look like. Too hilarious for words.


394 posted on 12/03/2008 5:51:34 PM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: SkyPilot; DelphiUser
First of all, I find it interesting that you point to one scripture, John 19:30 as the basis for your argument but yet don't address any of the scriptures I listed in re: to works.

You then state that we do not explain our beliefs & yet if anyone were to do a search on my posts, or Delphiuser, or most other Mormons that post here re: our beliefs, one would find your assertion to be quite erroneous. You then state that I call every critic a bigot or hater. Perhaps you can post excerpts of my posts where I call every critic a bigot or hater.

Lastly, I am an unapologetic defender of Mormonism & believe it is actually very logically defended. I would imagine you believe in your church & probably defend it vs. those not of your faith or beliefs as well. Not sure what your problem is there.

Your fallacious attacks on Joseph Smith have been gone over ad naseum here in prior threads as well as Delphiuser’s very cogent response in this thread.

I feel bad for the anger you have. It seems to virtually consume you. That's a shame. The liberals & MSM paint Christians as loons & zealots. With that being said, is it any wonder why when a minority of Christians here do the same thing to Mormons that they bemoan others do to them?

Again I would ask you, if you truly believe in your take on the scriptures, what makes your beliefs & interpretations right & others wrong? We're not the only Christians that have differences w/ your take. If you're correct, tell us why you're correct & why many others(i.e. non-Mormons)are wrong. If you choose to use the red herring that this is just a diversionary tactic, we will just conclude you don't have an answer.

Despite your angst against me & others here of my faith, I sincerely wish you the very best & hope you have a great Christmas season. It's a great time of year to reflect on all of our blessings & what Christ has done for all of us. You, me, & everyone. Cheers my FRiend.

395 posted on 12/03/2008 6:19:49 PM PST by Reno232
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To: Jibaholic
Deification was taught in the Bible
# Rom. 8:16-17
# Luke 6:40
# Heb. 12:23
# Gal. 4:7
# Matt. 5:48
# Psalm 82:5-6
# Rev. 3:21
# 2Pet. 1:4
# 2Cor. 3:18
# Acts 17:29
# 1Pet. 3:7
# Dan. 12:3

And by the early Christians:

Saint Irenaeus
- “Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods?
- How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man?
- Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.”
(the above quotes taken from: Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius (London: Oxford University Press, 1956)

Clement of Alexandria
- “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.”
Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1.[
and
- “if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God. . . . His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it.”
Clement of Alexandria, Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 see also Clement, Stromateis, 23

Justin Martyr
- “[in the beginning men] were made like God, free from suffering and death,” and that they are thus “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest”
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124.

Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria
- “The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. . . . Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life.”
Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.39.
and
- “He became man that we might be made divine.”
Athanasius, On the Incarnation, 54.

Augustine of Hippo
- “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. ‘For he has given them power to become the sons of God’ [John 1:12]. If then we have been made sons of god, we have also been made gods.”
Augustine, On the Psalms, 50:2.
Then you have more modern theologians teaching the same idea and acknowledging deification was part of early Christianity...

C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory
“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship.”

C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said”

Westminister Dictionary of Christian Theology:
Deification (Greek Theosis) is for orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is ‘made in the image and likeness of God’...it is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become God by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both O.T. and N.T. (Psalms 82: (81) .6; 2 Peter 1:4), and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (Romans 8:9-17, Galatians 4:5-7) and the fourth gospel (John 17:21-23).

William R. Inge, Archbishop of Canterbury:
“God became man, that we might become God” was a commonplace of doctrinal theology at least until the time of Augustine, and that “deification holds a very large place in the writings of the fathers...We find it in Irenaeus as well as in Clement, in Athanasius as well in Gregory of Nysee. St. Augustine was no more afraid of deificari in Latin than Origen of apotheosis in Greek...To modern ears the word deification sounds not only strange but arrogant and shocking.

If you want to get the full reference for the quotes, they are at:

http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Deification_of_man

http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Godhead_and_the_Trinity

396 posted on 12/03/2008 6:36:57 PM PST by Reno232
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To: Marysecretary; Elsie; DelphiUser

> The truth is not “un-Christian.”

Good. Then you should have no difficulty at all with this “Truth”.

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Rather like the Mormons. Argue with Jesus if you like: He says that if they aren’t against Him, they are for Him.

Hey, I didn’t write the rules, I just try to obey them. Perhaps you may wish to do the same.


397 posted on 12/03/2008 6:48:05 PM PST by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: Reno232
First of all, I find it interesting that you point to one scripture, John 19:30 as the basis for your argument

I bet you do.

And you cannot answer it.

Can you?

What is the point of me even reading the rest of your rebuttal?

Typical Mormon response.

"We cannot respond via fact - so there is therefore something Wrong with You!"

Turn the Mirror Around.

398 posted on 12/03/2008 6:50:38 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: RobRoy; greyfoxx39
>>I, for one, doubt the rules would be relaxed in the case of a civil emergency.<<

I firmly agree. I think it is the main point of the things.

In fact there are even parts of the temple that take further rank to enter. I remember asking why all of us non-mormons were allowed in and although I don’t remember the specifics of the reason, it had to do with something of the lines of “it wasn’t officially a ‘temple’ yet”. It had to go through some sort of ceremony or something and was still “just a building”.


Temples are just a building until they are dedicated to the Lord. A Temple has many areas that are not "off limits" most have waiting rooms, cafeterias and laundry (usually in the basement) and in an emergency I am sure those would be the safest places and available.

Attributing base motives is not Christlike behavior.
399 posted on 12/03/2008 6:52:51 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Enosh
Delphiuser: “So stating that Jews are not people is not bashing Jews?”

Enosh: This is a dishonest distortion. Nobody ever said Mormons are not people. The argument is that they are not Christian.

Further, to say that a Jew is not a Christin is not only true, it is also not an insult. They don’t claim to be.


Jews say they are people, The Nazis said they were not. Mormons say they are Christian...

It seems a pretty clear comparison to me, but then Hey, I'm a Mormon and don't count.
400 posted on 12/03/2008 7:08:56 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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