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An Ugly Attack on Mormons
article.nationalreview.com ^ | December 3, 2008 | Jonah Goldberg

Posted on 12/03/2008 8:59:31 AM PST by Publius804

An Ugly Attack on Mormons

The easiest targets for an organized campaign against religious freedom of conscience.

By Jonah Goldberg

Did you catch the political ad in which two Jews ring the doorbell of a nice working-class family? They barge in and rifle through the wife’s purse and then the man’s wallet for any cash. Cackling, they smash the daughter’s piggy bank and pinch every penny. “We need it for the Wall Street bailout!” they exclaim.

No? Maybe you saw the one with the two swarthy Muslims who knock on the door of a nice Jewish family and then blow themselves up?

No? Well, then surely you saw the TV ad in which two smarmy Mormon missionaries knock on the door of an attractive lesbian couple. “Hi, we’re from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!” says the blond one with a toothy smile. “We’re here to take away your rights.” The Mormon zealots yank the couple’s wedding rings from their fingers and then tear up their marriage license.

As the thugs leave, one says to the other, “That was too easy.” His smirking comrade replies, “Yeah, what should we ban next?” The voice-over implores viewers: “Say no to a church taking over your government.”

Obviously, the first two ads are fictional because no one would dare run such anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim attacks.

The third ad, however, was real. It was broadcast throughout California on Election Day as part of the effort to rally opposition to Proposition 8, the initiative that successfully repealed the right to same-sex marriage in the state.

What was the reaction to the ad? Widespread condemnation? Scorn? Rebuke? Tepid criticism?

Nope.

The Los Angeles Times, a principled opponent of Proposition 8, ran an editorial lamenting that the “hard-hitting commercial” was too little, too late.

(Excerpt) Read more at article.nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: christians; gaymarriage; homosexualagenda; ldschurch; mormon; mormons; prop8; samesexmarriage
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Marysecretary

Every Mormon I know, or have known, including a former college friend, has been a very good friend and colleague, and of great character, and very conservative politically.

My college friend was a fun-going person, always willing to enjoy social time, and was usually the one to drive back home at 2:00 a.m. on Saturday night!


651 posted on 12/05/2008 9:56:11 AM PST by Stat-boy
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To: colorcountry

” It just shows that others as well as Mormons were involved in the defeat of Prop 8.”

The latest “spin” I’ve read was that the blacks were unwitting tools of the mormons because they might not have voted the way they did if it weren’t for the ads.

So - the msm is painting the mormons as snide, sneaky bigots bent on taking away rights - bent on taking over the government - and blacks were too dumb to see the ads came from the mormons.
If they did - they would have voted for gay marriage.

Unbelievable.

I read the mormons were less than 5 percent of the vote.

And like you said - there HAD to be ALOT of others who voted against gay marriage, in the most liberal state in the US.


652 posted on 12/05/2008 9:57:55 AM PST by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

Unfortunately, there are some here that believe the same as the MSM, that Mormons are snide, sneaky bigots bent on taking away rights, bent on taking over the government.

I am convinced there are liberal plants here putting forth the liberal, MSM line. Just one more case in point. Yes, it is unbelievable. Sad too.

BTW, thanks for continuing the fight against what we both see as a severe threat to our nation & Democracy.


653 posted on 12/05/2008 10:08:14 AM PST by Reno232
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To: Reno232

“BTW, thanks for continuing the fight against what we both see as a severe threat to our nation & Democracy.”

I thought it was just a given that many here would understand what the homosexual activists are up to.

Maybe I’m tuned in because I also read catholic news sites, and this kind of thing has been reported (especially in California) for years now.
And their agenda is worldwide, and they don’t care what denomination you belong to.
Eventually anyone who ministers to the message of the bible will be targeted with a “hate crime” if we let them walk all over us.


654 posted on 12/05/2008 10:14:44 AM PST by Scotswife
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To: Reno232; Marysecretary; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; brytlea; Godzilla
Actually, I do know how Mormons feel about traditional Christians & you are wrong. Although we have differences w/ doctrine & believe there are some out there w/ evil intent, we believe “Christians” to be good people over all & headed in a good direction. We also believe that ultimately they can receive all the blessings the Lord has in store for them.

Now, Reno...did you leave out something in that last sentence? Such as..."to be good people over all & headed in a good direction. We also believe that ultimately they can receive all the blessings the Lord has in store for them"...IF they either become "worthy" mormons while alive...OR WHEN they are baptized and confirmed into the mormon church AFTER they die"?

You know full well, that according to mormon belief, NO ONE will "receive ALL the blessings the Lord has in store for them" unless they accept Joseph Smith and his teachings, and prove their "worthiness" to sit at the hand of God and His Son by obeying mormon standards.

What is the "evil intent" you are accusing Christians of, BTW?

Folks, THIS is what mormons really think of Christians. They can "ultimately" receive all the Lord has in store for them, once they become "worthy".

655 posted on 12/05/2008 10:16:22 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Tagline on vacation during the grand experiment.)
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To: Scotswife
So what are they really saying here?

FEAR Organized Religion!

656 posted on 12/05/2008 10:20:52 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Zakeet
The well respected Wycliffe Commentary takes what I believe to be the most widely accepted interpretation when it states:

Bah!!

By WHOM???

--MormonDude(I respect my elders!)

657 posted on 12/05/2008 10:22:37 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
And unless we band together, this is a battle we may lose.

Oh?

The Christian church has been AGAINST homosexuality WAY before MORMONism was ever invented!

658 posted on 12/05/2008 10:24:22 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

bingo - and Canada and the UN are trying to take it past fear and trying to attach the “hate” label as they proceed to legislate against their definition of “hate”.


659 posted on 12/05/2008 10:27:23 AM PST by Scotswife
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To: Reno232
No Elsie, the rest of the time they’re just malinformed & disingenuous as stated.

Like Bond's famous words: "Shaken; not stirred", we note that it's "Stated; not proven."


660 posted on 12/05/2008 10:28:01 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
One of those “deceiving spirits” was the same One that the Pharisees called a “deceiving spirit” while He was here on earth.

Again - no proof: just claims.

661 posted on 12/05/2008 10:29:00 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
One of those “deceiving spirits” was the same One that the Pharisees called a “deceiving spirit” while He was here on earth.

Again - no proof: just claims.


Since your QUOTED phrase - “deceiving spirit” CANNOT be found in the KJV; I have to assume it is one (or more) of OTHER scripture that MORMONs use.

662 posted on 12/05/2008 10:31:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Marysecretary
It’s not just MY opinion, DieHard. It’s how the traditional Christian church views Mormons.

That's because, Gentile, you are PART of the APOSTATE 'church' that lacks the TRUTH!

We will accept her back if she recants; you - I don't know...

--MormonDude(Well... I guess we could take you in, too.)

663 posted on 12/05/2008 10:33:55 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
Now it seems he’s trying to get out of using the word (without actually admitting he was wrong).

It could happen!

664 posted on 12/05/2008 10:37:36 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
Well, I think he has already decided what works he requires as spelled out in the afore mentioned scripture as well as many others. Wouldn't it behoove you to know what those works are so as to not take the chance that you haven't done them?

Yes - He sure HAS!!

KJV John 6:28-29
28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


For those Old English challenged...


St. John 6:28-29
 28.  Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29.  Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
 

665 posted on 12/05/2008 10:41:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: brytlea
I was hoping you would simply answer my simple question, I really don’t want to spend the time to ferret the answer out from your webpage.

You are supposed to waste YOUR time trying to decipher the text - NOT receive a PLAIN answer.

666 posted on 12/05/2008 10:42:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: VirginiaConstitutionalist
On live television. Even the anchors in studio were horrified.

But, I assume, not actually threatened?

667 posted on 12/05/2008 10:43:58 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
We believe that most will not go to hell b/c of their beliefs.

Oh??

Why do you believe THAT?

668 posted on 12/05/2008 10:45:33 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
So, were Protestants heretics?

Just them DAMNED Presbyterians!

(According to what Joseph Smith learned; anyway)

669 posted on 12/05/2008 10:46:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
Unfortunately, there are some here that believe the same as the MSM, that Mormons are snide, sneaky bigots bent on taking away rights, bent on taking over the government.

Then I believe you have the DUTY to NAME their names!

Let's just HANG these bad people for what THEY 'believe'!!

670 posted on 12/05/2008 10:48:37 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Scotswife
I thought it was just a given that many here would understand what the homosexual activists are up to.

No!!

MY eyes!!

Now THERE's a mental picture that'll take some time to go away!

671 posted on 12/05/2008 10:49:54 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

it sure ain’t pretty, especially when they show up in the communion line dressed up as nuns.


672 posted on 12/05/2008 10:51:21 AM PST by Scotswife
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To: Elsie

HA Ha ha!!!

I got the NUMBER!!!!!


673 posted on 12/05/2008 10:51:22 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39
Oh GF, there is so much anger in your soul. I pray for you.

Just as “Christians” believe all must accept Christ in order to be saved, we believe the same, perhaps just a little more specific. We believe we have the true church of Christ here on earth. Is it beyond reason for us to thus believe that one will ultimately have to accept that truth?

We believe that ultimately all will have the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life or in the next. It's not about Joseph Smith's teachings, it's about the Lord's. Unlike many Christian sects, the LDS church wasn't started by Joseph Smith based on his own ideas & interpretations of the Bible. He claimed to be visited by the Father & the Son who gave direction, just as the Lord had done throughout the Bible. The Lord based this church upon the same principles & formation as He did while He was here on earth w/ prophets, apostles etc.

If Christ's truth is somewhere out there, wouldn't it make sense that ultimately all would have to accept THAT truth regardless of how close they may have been? I respect the fact you don't believe we have the truth, albeit your manner of delivery of such feelings leaves a little to be desired. There's really no difference between your beliefs that Muslims will ultimately have to accept Christ in order to be saved, & our beliefs that all will have to accept His gospel. We're just more specific, but the principle is the same. Not sure why that is such a problem for you.

As far as the evil intent is concerned, there are Christians such as the Rev. Wright, et al, that I feel have evil intent. The majority of Christians don't espouse the sentiments of Wright, the Westboro Baptist church, etc. Nice try to tie my comments in w/ those as an all encompassing statement. Shame on you ole Grey.

At your age, I feel bad for you that anger takes up such a large portion of your days. You seem at times to be consumed w/ the destruction of our church, rather than spending those efforts on more constructive activities to further His work. I rarely hear you putting forth your beliefs in a constructive way that would uplift those that would hear your testimony (notice I didn't say never). Most of your efforts here tend to be spent on destruction. I would wish better for you. My prayers are sincerely w/ you & the other anti’s here.

674 posted on 12/05/2008 10:52:25 AM PST by Reno232
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To: Elsie

and if memory serves me correctly - this isn’t the first time either.

hmmm....


675 posted on 12/05/2008 10:53:01 AM PST by Scotswife
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To: Reno232
Nice try, Reno.

Perhaps you should look to your own salvation, and not worry about my state of mind and/or soul.

I will pray for you, and all your misguided fellows, that Christ's light will someday enter your soul.

At least you have admitted that what I stated was true...that's probably a first.

676 posted on 12/05/2008 11:18:32 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Tagline on vacation during the grand experiment.)
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To: Reno232
Oh GF, there is so much anger in your soul. I pray for you.

Being raised Mormon might make you see anger where it doesn't exist....or make you very angry at being so deceived by Joseph Smith et al....

Either way, greyfoxx is exonerated. But YOU, Reno are guilty of trying to do what only God can, and that is reading the heart of another....shame, shame.

677 posted on 12/05/2008 11:25:28 AM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Godzilla; Jibaholic; Reno232; restornu; Grig; sevenbak
You will soon see that DU is very selective when ever he cites something.

I suppose you are going to say you just chose your quotes at random? No?

Especially when he takes liberty with history.

Of course you Never take liberties with anything? (LOL!)

Take the following for instance:

Constantine, who called the first council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind. This was his expressed purpose according to records he had kept of the event.
If you follow his link you will find the following:

"The emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea. .......In order to expedite the assembling of the Council, the emperor placed at the disposal of the bishops the public conveyances and posts of the empire; moreover, while the Council lasted he provided abundantly for the maintenance of the members. "

Try as one may, one will not see the term - bribed or threat used in any variant form.


LOL! So you have a very bloody war of reunification, you have Christianity which has been used to provide entertainment at the coliseum for a long time, and in many places being a Christian was still a capitol offense. you have letters delivered, by whom? there is no postman the letters are delivered by a military guard. an invitation by the emperor which was refused was often followed by an execution. Then he "put public transportation at their disposal, so what is that, a bus? (There was no bus) travel being dangerous public transportation was travel with the military.

Let's put this in modern terms, a swat team arrives at your house and a fully armed police officer asks you to come with him, the Governor wants to see you. you to believe there is no implied threat? you go ahead and think that. Constantine routinely killed dissenters. There is even one account that has the first bishop who objected to the Nicene Creed in the council being put to the sword, but I don't have a corroborating story fro it so I don't use that, even though it's consistent with Constantine's methods.

Also note that the state church of Rome was a paid position, so the Roman catholic church received monies from the people of Rome. That is the bribe.

DUs continues the spin as follows:

In spite of Christianity being illegal, it had grown in popularity (or maybe even because it was illegal) Constantine sends letters to these bishops (who are under a death sentence just for being Christians) and invites them to a conference,

Is there truth in this statement? Not in the least. Following his coming to power, Christianity was legalized by the Edict of Milan, early in 313 - that is twelve (12) years before the Nicean conference. This is a an example of typical Mormon amateur apologetics who expects that his statements will go unchallenged.


Are you saying that the date is without argument? (LOL do you want to go there again?) just for the fun of it, let's use your date for a minute... let's say Christianity had been legal for a whole 12 years with the memory of coliseums still in living memory, and with the war and dissenters being put to death, there's not much change in how a bishop being "served" with his invitation will feel.

Next he will try to present a little truth.

Please refrain from mind reading, it is forbidden by the rules of this forum, thanks!

However, there are a few conditions, he wants a definition of God that everyone can accept, and thus we have the Greek religions influence in to the Nicene Creed.

Correct, Constantine wanted the strife to stop. But is this Hellenistic influence?


You might want to read a few papers on this, try Hellenistic influence on Christianity:, and Hellenistic philosophy and Christianity (pay particular attention to the section called "Hebrew versus Greek thought regarding God"). There is a lot more out there, but denying Hellenist influence will just make you look silly.

Arianism was at its core Platoism.

Stop right there, Platonism is not Arianism, anyone who is willing to spend a just a few seconds will know that.

The Arian conception of Christ as neither truly God nor truly man but an ontological in-between. Platonism, in its various forms, postulated the existence of such a mediator because it could not accept a direct contact or union between the Transcendent Divine Reality and Creation. It was this intermediate that Arius developed his heresy upon.

You need to read up on Arianism. your description of it here is unrecognizable.

Jehovah's witnesses carry this heresy to its conclusion - a kindred spirit for DU.

Actually, the JWs come by my house every couple of months we have some very interesting conversations, but I would definitely not call us "Kindred Spirits"

But now for the rest of the story. DU would have you believe that Constantine instituted the Trinity doctrine into the church. History reveals that the opposite is true.

History according to who? The Bible is replete with scriptures that only make sense if God the father and Jesus Christ were separate beings. Without listing exact scriptures here I'll point out that Jesus always speaks of God the Father in the third person, prays to him and at his baptism all three are present in different places, and when Stephen is stoned he sees Jesus standing on the right hand of God the Father. Then there is the little matter of Hippolytus who's work "A refutation of all heresies" was the voice of the church in correcting many of the heresies of his day. I have a whole section on him in my page, and in his book "Against one Noetus", his arguments against Noetus would obliterate the Trinity too, here is a snippet from my page that was taken from here
This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. You see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. Froth his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance
At the end of my section on Hippolytus I conclude with this:
So between the time that Hippolytus died in 236 and the Council at Nicea in 325 AD the view of the church swung from three entities acting as one God to one God made up of three manifestations. This is really not a HUGE change when you think about it, but it has many important ramifications.
Having quoted this to you before and having referred you to may page many times I am finding it hard to believe you are ignorant of my true position.

Arius’ friend Eusibius was a friend of Constantine, Emperor of Rome. He persuaded Constantine defend Arius. Constantine was baptized as an Arian.

And Arius was recalled from exile and the day before he was to be "brought back into full fellowship" he died of what his friends claim was poisoning, his enemies claim he was stopped by God.

The Arians were anti-Trinitarians.

that is as inaccurate as defining the Trinitarians as "anti Arian". Any rational person will readily admit there is far more to both sides than just being in opposition to the other side.

The change in the church was not as the result of the Council of Nicaea.

IMHO the first council of Nicea was the culmination of many small heresies being allowed into the church, resulting in the council where they were compiled and codified as a big heresy. To say it was not a change, is just denial of reality.

At the council, the historic position of the church was affirmed and written into a creed.

Hippolytus, the theologian of his day disagrees with you.

It was after this council that historic Christianity was exiled and replaced with the Arian heresy.

Is it your contention that Arianism won? If so why does "Orthodox Christianity" use the Nicene Creed?

Your version of history is supported by no documentation, no link, nothing but your opinion. I quote from the "Catholic Enclyclopedia Online". I quote from Wikipedia about Arianism. My page, has a section on the Trinity complete with excerpts from these sources, what do you post oh scholar of the pajamadeen? your post your unsubstantiated opinion. Very scholarly. (LOL) Also, the Nicean Creed that breeds such bile from DU wasn't formulated in its current form until Council of Constantinople (381) - some 56 years later. So jibaholic, and any other lurker present, it is clear that the history has been misrepresented by DU.

LOL! I linked to the Source! on the Catholic Encyclopedia Online. Where it says: "The year 325 is accepted without hesitation as that of the First Council of Nicaea."

I don't care how many times it was reformatted after that, and I don't think I am exactly displaying "Bile" here. I am presenting a logical, sourced, well reasoned opinion that disagrees with yours. In response you post provably false assertions with no links, no support other than your word, and then you accuse me of not being Scholarly. This is funny.

Let's actually look at the Nicean creed as adopted by the bishops in the meeting being presided over by Constantine:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made out of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes.
this contains exactly what I am talking about (gee imagine that, I was talking about the thing I linked to...) go look up homoousion, a Greek word because to better represented what they were trying to say than any other language (see the Greek Hellenistic influence I was talking about)

To borrow a bit from your phraseology: So jibaholic, Godzilla and any other lurker present, it is clear that the My post has been misrepresented by Godzilla. Now, I won't attribute base motives to Godzilla, I truly believe he didn't understand what I was saying, didn't follow the links, and didn't mean to call me a liar. I truly believe he thinks history is as he represents it here and he's just ill informed, and has not taken the time to study before posting, counting on what he has been "taught" to carry him through.

Lurkers, I encourage you to check out what I am saying, start with the Trinity, read The Arian Controversy and go on to read Hippolytus.. Follow my links, follow my logic, FM me and point out corrections or exception or new sources. I am making extensive use of the Catholic Encyclopedia On line, so I am not just posting "Mormon" doctrine here, please help me to be as accurate as I can on my page.

P.S. feel free to read the whole page, and not just the sections I have linked you to here.
678 posted on 12/05/2008 11:31:00 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Marysecretary
New King James; but Mormons take most of their beliefs from Joseph Smith’s teachings. They consider Jesus satan’s brother.

At best you are ill informed... read this.
679 posted on 12/05/2008 11:32:37 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Marysecretary; DieHard the Hunter
Mormons can believe what they want. I have no problem with any of it until they call themselves Christians. That they are not, in the traditional sense.

So, would you agree with my earlier statement that we are Christians, but not "Orthodox Christians"?
680 posted on 12/05/2008 11:34:20 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
DU: We do not look down on our Orthodox Christian friends, most are doing their level best with what they know.

VR: I'll be sure to inform our pastor this weekend that he doesn't know much.

Don't you think knowing the true nature of the God you are preaching about is important?
681 posted on 12/05/2008 11:39:08 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Elsie
DU: Actually answering questions is not on the anti agenda.

LC: HA Ha ha!

You are channeling Millet now!


have you ever noticed we ignore many of your posts? The reason is that if you read them, they prove themselves wrong. Post the whole Millet video all you want, it does not look as bad to anyone else watching it as it does to you.
682 posted on 12/05/2008 11:43:26 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
You both (1) used an inaccruate - and Mormon - bible, and (2) left out the context. The NASB is more accurate. Here is the full quote. There heresy of believing in other gods is clear.

Pride = Thinking you know what we believe even when we deny that "that" is what we believe.

Pride= wanting to be like God. That goes back to original sin. Genesis 3:5.

4(C)The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


683 posted on 12/05/2008 11:43:52 AM PST by Jibaholic ("Those people who are not ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants." --William Penn)
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To: Elsie
Now you didn't take those 2 verses out of CONTEXT - did you??

I believe I took them in context, that is why I try to link scriptures as much as possible. Those who almost never (or never) link may be doing so to hide the context of their quotes.
684 posted on 12/05/2008 11:45:18 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: colorcountry

Let me ask you this CC, do you really see much anger in my posts? Do you see me damning people to hell? There may be sorrow, but not anger. I’m not reading her heart, rather her actions which are in full view.

BTW, as I’ve stated elsewhere here, I am a convert, so I have a different perspective than what you describe. I’ve been down the traditional Christian path & thus have that understanding & perspective as well.

Best wishes to you CC.


685 posted on 12/05/2008 11:46:32 AM PST by Reno232
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To: Elsie
DU: LOL, first, I find it hard to believe you have a humble opinion.

LC: Second - you avoided dealing with the accusation.

Actually, I linked my page as proof I am not afraid to argue my position. I don't think there is a person (besides you) on this thread that thinks I am afraid of arguing my position.
686 posted on 12/05/2008 11:49:28 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Elsie
Someone who believes that their Living Prophet® speaks for God wonders how OTHERS do?

LC, you are not a prophet or you'd have better things to do.
687 posted on 12/05/2008 11:50:56 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Elsie
I claim the OMM defense.

Overly Mad at Mormons?
688 posted on 12/05/2008 11:52:14 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Reno232; greyfoxx39
I too have a different perspective, as does greyfoxx. We were LDS and now are saved by grace, covered by the blood of Christ, and don't give a second thought to what those who are deceived by the spirit of the anti-christ think about our anger. (forgive me if I am being presumptuous, greyfoxx)

You too, have a nice day.

689 posted on 12/05/2008 11:52:42 AM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Elsie
Did you dispute the fact that past LDS leaders WROTE such things?

The way you guys are saying it, yes, then again who knows waht's in the JOD, it's not doctrine.
690 posted on 12/05/2008 11:53:41 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: greyfoxx39; Reno232; DelphiUser
BTW, I don't know where you got the idea that Colofornian is an ex. That's something I must have missed.

I'm from a family of "ex-s"...Otherwise, in Mormon-talk, I'm only a gentile apostate...not a personal jack mormon apostate.

[Boy, how do LDS keep their categories of "apostates" straight is pure wonderment...especially since DelphiUser muddied the waters a bit more when he said: "You cannot be apostate unless you were a member of the church and left." ( http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2122728/posts?q=1&;page=281 )]

So I guess to some/most Mormons...
...I'm a gentile apostate...
...to others I'm blood-tied to jack Mormon apostates...
...but to DelphiUser I'm technically NOT an apostate (just a spiritual descendent of them; but I'm a spiritual descendent of faithful Mormons, too)
...on-the-other hand I'm certain I've been proxy baptized as a Mormon...so...

...I guess that makes me a gentile-apostate-blood-tied-jack-Mormon-apostate-technically-NOT-an-apostate-proxy-baptized-"Mormon" :)

But to clarify, Reno, I'm not offended by your accusatory assumption from your post. I identify enough solidarity-wise with my jack-Mormon family members that you might as well be talkin' 'bout me personally.

691 posted on 12/05/2008 12:05:28 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: colorcountry
I respect your beliefs & wish you the best in them. The difference is that I'm not in the business of berating your beliefs & calling your church satanic & otherwise.

I will have civil discussions about differences of belief w/ those that are willing to do like wise w/ me. I will defend my beliefs when warranted. I also respect those opinions that differ from mine. I try & do so w/o denigration. It tends to be a much more pleasurable experience that way & far more productive. How about you? Feel the same way?

692 posted on 12/05/2008 12:06:36 PM PST by Reno232
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To: greyfoxx39
DU: a few fight against the church of God and I fear for their souls.

greyfoxx39: Untold millions of Christians fight FOR the Church of God. Many fight AGAINST the Church of Joseph Smith. The mormon claim to being THE "Church of God" is as specious as their claim to be "Christian".

Fine, find our claims to be specious, I have no bone to pick with that, I don't even care when you state your opinion in strong terms. but when you try to tell others falsehoods about us, then I'll have to set you straight.

greyfoxx39: But continue on with this declaration to be the "Church of God"....It makes SO many friends for you among Christians.

apparently you are under the mistaken impression that i am trying to win a popularity contest. I assure you there is no danger of that and you can't even see me.

"It wasn't meant for the church to be popular or all hell would want to join us" -- Brigham Young
693 posted on 12/05/2008 12:07:14 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Marysecretary
The Bible tells us that Jesus was the ONLY begotten son of God. Nice try.

I agree with that.

In your opinion, are spirits begotten, or created?

Jesus is the "only begotten", it's a specific term.
694 posted on 12/05/2008 12:10:01 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

No offense intended. I was going off of memory that was obviously a little off as far as the exact nature.


695 posted on 12/05/2008 12:10:04 PM PST by Reno232
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To: DelphiUser

He had a human son born of a virgin. That’s all I need to know.


696 posted on 12/05/2008 12:12:43 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary; DieHard the Hunter
I suppose a Mormon can BE a Christian but usually not until they leave the church and its false teachings. We have a former Mormon in our church and she’s a neat lady. It’s not just MY opinion, DieHard. It’s how the traditional Christian church views Mormons.

How Traditional Christians (I usually say Orthodox), view us is not a concern, them openly judging us and worse misleading people by saying we are not "Christian" (which misleads by implying that we don't believe in Jesus Christ) then we have to stand up and correct the record.

Marysecretary, if you were saying that Mormons were not traditional or orthodox Christians. You will not be getting push-back from me or most here.
697 posted on 12/05/2008 12:15:40 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

No, I would not agree with that Delphi. I know Mormons are good people but your teachings from Joseph Smith are really off the wall and just plain wrong. A christian needs only one book, the Bible, not some other book written by god knows who. A Christian needs a personal relationship with the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. He has to be invited to come into one’s life to reside there. I pray that’s true for you. Mary


698 posted on 12/05/2008 12:15:58 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Elsie

Elsie! You scared me...LOL.


699 posted on 12/05/2008 12:17:13 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Stat-boy

Yes, I can agree with you. We had a wonderful Mormon family in our little community when my children were growing up. I loved them dearly, but that doesn’t mean I agree with them spiritually. Most have excellent character, for sure. It’s what they believe that separates us spiritually.


700 posted on 12/05/2008 12:19:20 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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