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An Ugly Attack on Mormons
article.nationalreview.com ^ | December 3, 2008 | Jonah Goldberg

Posted on 12/03/2008 8:59:31 AM PST by Publius804

An Ugly Attack on Mormons

The easiest targets for an organized campaign against religious freedom of conscience.

By Jonah Goldberg

Did you catch the political ad in which two Jews ring the doorbell of a nice working-class family? They barge in and rifle through the wife’s purse and then the man’s wallet for any cash. Cackling, they smash the daughter’s piggy bank and pinch every penny. “We need it for the Wall Street bailout!” they exclaim.

No? Maybe you saw the one with the two swarthy Muslims who knock on the door of a nice Jewish family and then blow themselves up?

No? Well, then surely you saw the TV ad in which two smarmy Mormon missionaries knock on the door of an attractive lesbian couple. “Hi, we’re from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!” says the blond one with a toothy smile. “We’re here to take away your rights.” The Mormon zealots yank the couple’s wedding rings from their fingers and then tear up their marriage license.

As the thugs leave, one says to the other, “That was too easy.” His smirking comrade replies, “Yeah, what should we ban next?” The voice-over implores viewers: “Say no to a church taking over your government.”

Obviously, the first two ads are fictional because no one would dare run such anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim attacks.

The third ad, however, was real. It was broadcast throughout California on Election Day as part of the effort to rally opposition to Proposition 8, the initiative that successfully repealed the right to same-sex marriage in the state.

What was the reaction to the ad? Widespread condemnation? Scorn? Rebuke? Tepid criticism?

Nope.

The Los Angeles Times, a principled opponent of Proposition 8, ran an editorial lamenting that the “hard-hitting commercial” was too little, too late.

(Excerpt) Read more at article.nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: christians; gaymarriage; homosexualagenda; ldschurch; mormon; mormons; prop8; samesexmarriage
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To: Reno232

There is only One who’s pleasure I care about, it is not your’s nor mine.

As far as how one appears on the pages of FR, it is really only what is in the heart that matters and not the “appearance of civility”.

Now, God doesn’t want people to pervert his word, nor is he pleased by nambly-pambly “civil” discussions. Jesus said:

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

God has equipped His followers with gifts. You might not like the particular way that Greyfoxx, I or others have been gifted, you might deem it as “offensive” to your man-made religion. As I said, it is not my concern what you think of me. God uses me, and He uses truth. If that makes you uncomfortable, I suggest you check yourself, pray about it.


701 posted on 12/05/2008 12:20:45 PM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Marysecretary; broncobilly
It’s not opinion. It IS reality. If they used the Bible ONLY for their religion, there probably wouldn’t be any problem. But they use another book, The Book of Mormon, which they claim came from the Angel Moroni. It is full of heresies and false teachings. Joseph Smith was a con man who is sending people to hell because of his ramblings. THAT, my friend, is what’s the problem.

I see, what we have here is a lack of common definitions.

Everyone perceives reality and that is their perception.

God is the only one who perceives "reality" as it is.

you are in no position to tell me or broncobilly what reality is, you are not God.

I could spend lots of time telling you where I think you are not in touch with reality, but I prefer to spend my time in useful endeavors.
702 posted on 12/05/2008 12:20:50 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Reno232

Every religion has its heresies when they stray from God’s word. There are heretical Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants...


703 posted on 12/05/2008 12:20:57 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: greyfoxx39
Courtesy ping to #701
704 posted on 12/05/2008 12:24:24 PM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Reno232

I’ve told you here that I have NO problem with Mormons. I know that what you say is true. We do work together on important things. But your beliefs are NOT the same as ours and to say they are is not true. I’m going to heaven when I die. It won’t matter if I have a husband or not. I’m going on my own beliefs in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour. My husband isn’t going to a planet to have spirit-wives and children. There are too many crazy things like that which separate us, I’m sad to say.


705 posted on 12/05/2008 12:24:36 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: colorcountry; greyfoxx39
He indeed called it persecution. I pretty much called him a pansy for thinking that people disagreeing with the claims of his religion is “persecution.” Now it seems he’s trying to get out of using the word (without actually admitting he was wrong).

I find it interesting that this is the "best argument" that you have left. BTW calling me a pansy is name calling which is a form of persecution, but it does not bother me, I am an adult, name call on...
706 posted on 12/05/2008 12:25:06 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: brytlea
It seems important tho, that if someone doesn’t believe Jesus is their savior would not be a Christian, no matter what they called themselves.

We believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

Not that it really matters, Happy now that we call ourselves Christians?
707 posted on 12/05/2008 12:28:43 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

Name calling is a form of persecution? Really?

Then you are the pansy that I thought you were.

Don’t you remember what you learned in Kindergarten? Sticks and stone may break my bones but name will never hurt me.


708 posted on 12/05/2008 12:29:09 PM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: AuntB

I’ve said it a thousand times, I have no problem with Mormons. They are lovely people. But they have beliefs that are NOT mainstream Christian but they say they are. They have a lot of beliefs that are really crazy, especially when it comes to women, spirit wives,spirit children, etc., etc. There are others here who are far more educated about Mormonism and Christianity than I am, but I do know that they feel we are apostates and will not enter the kingdom of heaven as they will, with all their spirit wives and babies. Read up on it.


709 posted on 12/05/2008 12:29:18 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Stat-boy
Every Mormon I know, or have known, including a former college friend, has been a very good friend and colleague, and of great character, and very conservative politically. My college friend was a fun-going person, always willing to enjoy social time, and was usually the one to drive back home at 2:00 a.m. on Saturday night!

Well, my Mormon (and also BYU) college friends & relatives were likewise intentional in focusing on character. But I think we miss some underlying aspects here.

Let's say any of us planned to run for President in 2016 or 2020 or 2024. Would not we be quite intentional in putting forth our best character over the next 8,12, 16 years -- lest our character flaws be our undoing re: our ultimate political plans?

So, roughly 20% of LDS are temple-recommended...some higher in certain locations; some lower in others. For these folks, their ultimate socio-spiritual-political plan is for one day they will become (upon death) Gov. God -- of their own planet/star. Don't you think, like any of us who might have presidential aspirations, that aspiring presidents and aspiring gods would want to put on our best outward face -- lest we be disqualified from godhood?

While we dare not lump every Mormon together -- for all are unique & are individuals -- and even most of 80% of their rosters are NOT even temple-recommended (& therefore not even "eligible" for the ultimate "celestial kingdom" eternal life insurance plan)...we need to understand that a good number of LDS do have ultimate divine aspirations. Among any given Mormon, we don't know all or even most of their inner motivations...but we do know that the motivation of godhood exists for some...and that motivation mirrors the original aspiration of one who said long ago, "I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14)...little do many of them realize that these words of pride were uttered by Lucifer.

710 posted on 12/05/2008 12:30:04 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: DieHard the Hunter

I like the Mormons, too, Diehard. I just don’t agree with their beliefs as being ‘Christian.’


711 posted on 12/05/2008 12:30:49 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary
Just out of curiosity Marysecretary, how do you know Christians need only one book, the Bible. Are we not all the Lord's children? If that is the case, is it beyond your comprehension that the Lord might have spoken to those of His children who didn't live in the Mideast? Did He ever state that He would only speak to those in that area? Did He ever state there would only be one record of His teachings?

Perhaps Ezekiel 37:16-21 would be an interesting read for you:

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 ¶ And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Now, most would accept the stick of Judah to be the Bible. Where's the stick of Ephraim?

The Lord also said in John 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who were those other sheep? Just food for thought.

712 posted on 12/05/2008 12:38:06 PM PST by Reno232
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To: Marysecretary

Mt question wasn’t whether the Protestants had heretics in their midst. My question was whether the Protestant religions were heretic as the Catholics stated.


713 posted on 12/05/2008 12:41:20 PM PST by Reno232
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To: Reno232; greyfoxx39
I respect your beliefs & wish you the best in them. The difference is that I'm not in the business of berating your beliefs & calling your church satanic & otherwise.

What do you do, then, Reno, with Book of Mormon passages like 1 Nephi 14:10 that says there's only two churches -- and one of them is the Church of Satan? Since we know you don't consider the LDS church to be that, then how do you get around the fact that Mormons who adhere to a literal interpretation of 1 Nephi 14:10 in fact believe that every non-Mormon church branch was rooted in Satan.

Also, here you "tag" GF with an accusation of calling your church "satanic" -- but nowhere have I seen you rebuke the LDS "prophet" John Taylor for saying the following: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167)

Why is it so "negative" of us to mention what your spiritual forefathers have believed and expressed when those same spiritual forefathers were even more extremely negative about our spiritual forefathers?

714 posted on 12/05/2008 12:41:34 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Marysecretary

“I’ve said it a thousand times, I have no problem with Mormons. They are lovely people. But they have beliefs that are NOT mainstream Christian but they say they are. They have a lot of beliefs that are really crazy, especially when it comes to women, spirit wives,spirit children, etc., etc. There are others here who are far more educated about Mormonism and Christianity than I am, but I do know that they feel we are apostates and will not enter the kingdom of heaven as they will, with all their spirit wives and babies. Read up on it.”

That’s all very nice and well, but here is your statement that I questioned,
““P.S., do you know how Mormons feel about traditional Christians? Not nice.””

All I asked was an example of your claim. Didn’t give us any proof,did ya? And now you claim Mormons are nice people.....so why don’t you all go find some group that really IS a problem instead of the Mormon bashing. It’s none of your business what they believe. Are they forcing it on YOU? Doesn’t say much for your religion that you are so willing to bear false witness, does it?


715 posted on 12/05/2008 12:44:33 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: Elsie

Apparently so...


716 posted on 12/05/2008 12:48:19 PM PST by brytlea (You can fool enough of the people enough of the time.)
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To: DelphiUser; Marysecretary; broncobilly
...you are in no position to tell me or broncobilly what reality is, you are not God.... [DU]

(Is that "reality" talking, DU? If only God has a "realistic" appraisal, then perhaps, just perhaps, the free counsel you just gave MS wasn't based upon "reality"...because according to your own doctrine you just preached, you also are in no position to tell MS what "reality" is, for you are not God...If reality is so relative, why would MS even bother to consider your inherent unrealistic perspective?)

717 posted on 12/05/2008 12:48:43 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Marysecretary

“Read up on it.”

BTW, bearing false witness is in the 10 commandments....part of your religion, no?

Read up on it....


718 posted on 12/05/2008 12:49:20 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: brytlea
Actually, since I’ve been thru the lessons twice and have a Mormon sister, Im pretty familiar with basic doctrine. I was hoping you would simply answer my simple question, I really don’t want to spend the time to ferret the answer out from your webpage. Thanks anyway.

That's great!, i was not sending you to a generic section on my page, the #Brothers in the link Do Mormons Believe Jesus and Satan are brothers? takes you to a specific section of my page that is directly aimed at your question, no digging required, plus I don't have to spam this thread. Just click and then tell me if that's not good enough, OK?
719 posted on 12/05/2008 12:56:06 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
You said,

That's my opinion, but I would never go on another thread and tell someone who didn't believe Jesus was his savior that he was not a "Christian".

My post was regarding that.

720 posted on 12/05/2008 12:57:09 PM PST by brytlea (You can fool enough of the people enough of the time.)
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To: DelphiUser
I said:

I would very much like more information on that, as it has been my understanding that Mormon’s see Jesus as a man and a brother to man, but not the same as God.

Do Mormon's believe Jesus was a man, not divine? (yes or no will do)

Do Mormon's see Jesus as a son of God the same way you are a son of God?(yes or no again)

If you can't answer that here, fine, just tell me, but don't send me off somewhere else when the answer is yes or no. I'm sorry if my original question (using the phrase more information was probably what caused the misunderstanding) gave the impression I wanted a longer answer.

721 posted on 12/05/2008 1:01:24 PM PST by brytlea (You can fool enough of the people enough of the time.)
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To: Scotswife
hmmm....

 
It gives a reson (like I need one!) to post Scripture!
 
 
THESE are the Scriptures that mention Anti-Christ:

NIV 1 John 2:18-29
 18.  Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
 19.  They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
 20.  But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
 21.  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
 22.  Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
 23.  No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 24.  See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
 25.  And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
 26.  I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
 27.  As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
 28.  And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
 29.  If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
 

NIV 1 John 4:1-3
 1.  Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
 2.  This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
 3.  but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
 

NIV 2 John 1:7
   Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
 


Now THESE are about the BEAST:



NIV Revelation 13:1-18
 1.  And the dragon  stood on the shore of the sea.   And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
 2.  The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 
 3.  One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast .
 4.  Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
 5.  The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
 6.  He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
 7.  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
 8.  All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
 9.  He who has an ear, let him hear.
 10.  If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
 11.  Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
 12.  He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
 13.  And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
 14.  Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
 15.  He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
 16.  He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
 17.  so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
 18.  This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
 
And THOSE are ALL the Scriptures pertaining to 666.


722 posted on 12/05/2008 1:03:27 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Marysecretary; Reno232
P.S., do you know how Mormons feel about traditional Christians? Not nice.

LOL! How many Mormons do you actually know?

I have tons of non-Mormon friends, I have FLDS friends, Catholic friends, Some Baptists, a pentecostal, and some Buddhists.

Mormons love to make protestant friends, because they make great Mormons (It's a joke, OK?)


723 posted on 12/05/2008 1:03:40 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Elsie

Gee, good thing your post wasn’t the 666 one on this thread!

(chuckle)


724 posted on 12/05/2008 1:04:25 PM PST by Badeye (There are no 'great moments' in Moderate Political History. Only losses.)
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To: colorcountry
But YOU, Reno are guilty of trying to do what only God can, and that is reading the heart of another....shame, shame.

You CAN mindread on NON-Religious Forum: can't you?

725 posted on 12/05/2008 1:04:39 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser

Yoohoo... RESTY!!

DU is calling...


726 posted on 12/05/2008 1:05:16 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
You CAN mindread on NON-Religious Forum: can't you?

You may, but can you?

727 posted on 12/05/2008 1:06:59 PM PST by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: DelphiUser
have you ever noticed we ignore many of your posts?

Yes; I have. But make you think I'm wrinting to YOU anyway??


I did.

Merely reported.

The Lurkers can decide on their own. I doubt they'll need much EXPLAININ' done!

728 posted on 12/05/2008 1:07:27 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: AuntB; Marysecretary; All
It’s none of your business what they believe. Are they forcing it on YOU? Doesn’t say much for your religion that you are so willing to bear false witness, does it?

You know, AuntB, by your very own standard, it's none of your business what MS believes about what they believe. (So practice your own standard). Also, is MS forcing her understandings of LDS on YOU? (No) As for your outright slander of MS as bearing false witness, your ignorance slip is showing (read below).

““P.S., do you know how Mormons feel about traditional Christians? Not nice.”” All I asked was an example of your claim. Didn’t give us any proof,did ya?

You want proof? (Here's proof) Read them (don't remain ignorant). Contemporary Mormons revere their "prophets and apostles" -- past and present. They believe they reveal anew God's Word.

LDS Founder Joseph Smith "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:] 'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Brigham Young said that the "Christian God is the Mormon's Devil..." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, page 331). • stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230). •

Orson Pratt (LDS apostle) proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255). •

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172). •

LDS President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127). •

Bruce R. McConkie (LDS apostle) said, "What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power?.... It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel.... It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini." (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55.)

Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President) -- "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation that was not, in the year 1820, so obscured by false tradition and ceremonies, borrowed from paganism, as to make it unrecognizable; or else it was entirely denied ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the `Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:282).

729 posted on 12/05/2008 1:08:02 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser
I don't think there is a person (besides you) on this thread that thinks I am afraid of arguing my position.

I don't think there is a person (besides you) on this thread that thinks I SAID that you were afraid of arguing your postiton.

I disTINCTLY said AVOIDED it.

730 posted on 12/05/2008 1:09:07 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
LC, you are not a prophet or you'd have better things to do.

True - no malls for me to cut the ribbon at or real estate deals to finalize.

(We note that you did NOT say anything I posted to you was WRONG.)

731 posted on 12/05/2008 1:10:28 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
The way you guys are saying it,

Why do QUOTES from your past leaders UPSET you so?

They way 'we' say it... HA!

732 posted on 12/05/2008 1:11:45 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Thanks for that Elsie.

OK - so actually - you keep getting “the number” so you can post those passages.

Not bad, not bad.


733 posted on 12/05/2008 1:12:26 PM PST by Scotswife
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To: Elsie
I got the NUMBER!!!!!

It suits you... (you did ask for it ;-)

Congratulations!
734 posted on 12/05/2008 1:12:32 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Reno232
The difference is that I'm not in the business of berating your beliefs & calling your church satanic & otherwise.

Yup. YA can't improve on what the BoM already says!

735 posted on 12/05/2008 1:12:48 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
"It wasn't meant for the church to be popular or all hell would want to join us" -- Brigham Young

Is THIS doctrine?

I'll answer: NO!

For that is EXACTLY what we Evangelicals want: all HELL to join us!

NOW! Not after they're gone and we have to do a proxy baptism for 'em!

736 posted on 12/05/2008 1:14:54 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

Listen to me. As I’ve said before I will NOT read all your dogma. This is about Mormon bashing....like they are the scariest people you have to worry about! They are no threat to any of us.

Grow up!


737 posted on 12/05/2008 1:17:33 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: DelphiUser
 

I see, what we have here is a lack of common definitions.
 
NO!
 
I am SHOCKED!!
TRULY Shocked, I say!


 
Mormon versus Christian definitions
 
 
Word...
 
Mormon
 
Christian
Atonement
 
(1) Used almost exclusively as a reference to Jesus' conquering physical death for all people.  By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for all people to enter again into the presence of Heavenly Father - if for no other reason than to be judged by him.  In other words, they are again 'at-one' with him (atoned).  This will happen at Judgment Day.  Those who have earned it will live in the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father.  Everyone else will live outside of the presence of Heavenly Father. 
(2) At times atonement includes the thought of Jesus' paying for people's sins.  But underlying all such references is the thought that they have to pay him back.  For a good example of the LDS view of Jesus' atoning work, see Gospel Principles chapter 12. 
Jesus' complete payment, made once, for all the sins of all the people of the entire world. 
Hebrews 7:27: Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 
1 Peter 3:18:  For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.  Through faith in Jesus' payment, we are given eternal life in heaven. 
Bible
One of four books Mormons consider scripture. They believe it to be the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly" (Eighth Article of Faith).  They believe many precious parts have been lost from it (1 Nephi 13:28).  Consequently they consider it the least reliable of the scriptures.  Many Mormons are not familiar with it. 
The inspired, complete and inerrant Word of God.
Damnation
Mormon's Plan of Salvation outlines an intricate process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Anything that stops a person in their progression, such as dying without having a celestial marriage, is considered damnation as it blocks or dams their progression. 
The consequence of unbelief.  Unbelief results in damnation, that is, suffering eternal punishment in hell.
 
Eternal Life (Exaltation)
Living eternally as a god, synonymous with godhood and exaltation.  "Exaltation means the same thing as eternal life" (Learn of Me, p. 72).  Eternal life  is reserved for those who attain the highest level of the celestial kingdom.  Mormons must become perfect, have received their endowment, and been married in the temple (Celestial Marriage) before they can earn eternal life.  This eternal life will be lived both with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom and as god over their own world which they will populate with their own children. 
By faith in Jesus' payment for our sins, we are given the gift of eternal life living with God in heaven as his children.
Faith

(1)  The belief that God exists and has given a good plan of salvation (Mormonism). 
(2) The power God gives Mormons whereby they can resist sin and become perfect. "But he must believe the truth, obey the truth, and practice the truth, to obtain the power of God called faith" (Past Living Prophet and President Brigham Young quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church Brigham Young p. 56).  The more righteous a person is, the more power (faith) God will give him.  "To those who have not begun the quest of comprehension, the word faith appears to be only a synonym for a kind of belief or conviction....It is a principle of power" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 82).
The sure hope of our deliverance from death to eternal life in heaven.  Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness
Must be earned through what may be "weeks, years, or centuries" of effort. To be forgiven of a sin, one must meet the demands of the LDS definition of repentance for that sin. God 'remembers' the original sin and you lose your forgiveness if you recommit the sin.
The undeserved gift of having your sins separated from you "as far as the east is from the west". Because Jesus paid our penalty as our substitute, we are considered guiltless by God. God does not remember our sins.
Gift
 
Mormonism has expanded the definition of the term 'gift'.  The expanded definition includes as 'gifts' things which are rewarded to an individual only after first completing certain requirements or first demonstrating sufficient worthiness.  The expanded definition also includes as 'gifts' things which once received, obligate the receiver to a set of conditions; which, if broken revoke the 'gift'.  Most 'gifts' in Mormonism actually fall under the expanded part of the Mormon definition (eternal life, grace, forgiveness, the help of the Holy Ghost, most of God's many blessings).  Mormon doctrine goes so far as to say that God is 'obligated' to give a particular 'gift' once the prescribed prerequisites have been achieved by the receiver of the gift.   Most of the 'gifts' of Mormonism are not gifts but rewards, compensation, obligatory payments, and contracts.
A gift is something we receive which is undeserved, unearned, offered freely by the bestower.
Gospel
A term that refers to Mormonism in general.  Or in particular, Mormonism's intricate plan of salvation.  "Mormonism so-called - which actually is the gospel of Christ, restored anew this day" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 176). 
The "Good News" of free and full salvation (eternal life with God in heaven) won for mankind by Jesus Christ.
 
Grace

 

The power God gives people to save themselves, conditional on their earning it by doing all they can do on their own.  "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).  "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).  This grace does not directly provide them with eternal life, but rather with the power to make up the difference between "all they can do" and perfection. 
The unconditional, free gift of eternal life given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.  Ephesians 2:8-9:  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Heaven
Any of the three kingdoms Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial.  Life even on the lowest kingdom will be much better than earth, and even the vilest of unbelievers will receive a life in heaven.   "The book (Doctrine and Covenants) explains clearly that the lowest glory to which man is assigned is so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man.  It is a doctrine fundamental in Mormonism that the meanest sinner, in the final judgment, will receive a glory which is beyond human understanding, which is go great that we are unable to describe it adequately." (John A. Widtsoe, quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 166).  Yet, even in the highest kingdom all but those who have earned exaltation will have less than complete happiness.  "How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity!" (Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 19). 
God's glorious home, where all who believed in Jesus' saving work will live forever happy with him.  Revelations 21:3-4:  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.".
Hell

 
(1) Not a place of eternal punishment but the temporary state of suffering wicked spirits experience in spirit prison before Judgment Day.  "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of resurrection is called hell....Hell will have an end" (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 165). 
(2)  The regret the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will experience as they see the glories of the celestial kingdom is described in Mormon literature as a kind of hell. 
(3) Mormons call Satan's domain Outer Darkness.  Only those who leave the LDS church are sent to Outer Darkness.
Satan's domain of unending torment.  Mark 9:47-48: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’  All unbelievers will be cast into hell.  Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Justification
Unfamiliar term to most Mormons.  Mormonism describes it as God's strict confirmation of the merits or demerits of man's own actions.  In other words, LDS justification is God's act of rewarding people on their own actions, rewarding right and punishing wrong. 
God declares us (believers) not guilty on the basis of Christ's atoning work.
Paid - As in "Jesus paid for my sins".
Mormonism uses the word 'paid' as a synonym for 'refinanced'.  When a Mormon says "Jesus paid for my sins", he does not mean that he no longer owes the debt of sin, merely that the creditor and the terms have changed.  The entire debt still remains to be paid! 
When a Christian says "Jesus paid for my sins", he means that his entire payment for all his sins has been made, no more debt remains, no further payment is due or could even be made.
Repentance
"It is a long road spiked with thorns and briars and pitfalls and problems" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness quoted in Gospel Principles, page 123.

The Mormon definition includes:
  1) sorrow for your sins.
  2) abandoning [never again committing] each and every sin.
  3) confessing each sin.
  4) restitution, as far as it is possible, for every sin ever committed.
  5) freely forgive anyone who ever sinned against you.
  6) obedience to all of God's other commands [in essence - perfection].
  7) perform works to make up for the sin.
  8) there can be no repentance without punishment.
  9) you will not even desire to commit the sin again!

Points 1-7 referenced in Gospel Principles, pages 124-125. 

Point 8 referenced in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 224

Point 9 referenced in Missionary Discussions, page 2-14 / Study Guide 2, page 3.

From Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith: True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light.  Not only so, but to make restitution, so far as it is possible, for all the wrongs we have done, to pay our debts, and restore to God and man their rights - that which is due to them from us.   

Literally, a change of mind.  A turning of one's heart from trust in yourself and your works to trust in Jesus and his work for you.  Such a change of heart will result in sorrow for one's sins and a humble attitude of following God's will.
Redemption
Synonymous with atonement. 
Christ bought all mankind back (redeemed) from the wages of our sin.  See atonement.
Salvation
(1)  For most Mormons this is equivalent to physical resurrection, the reuniting of body and soul on Judgment Day.  This is the only free gift in Mormonism.  This is why many can say they believe they are saved by Jesus alone.  They mean that they believe they don't have to do anything to be resurrected.  However, this salvation does not grant eternal life (exaltation).  That is based on their successful completion of their plan of salvation.  Mormonism states that if one makes no effort and is an unbeliever he / she will still be resurrected and assigned a place in the lowest kingdom.  Therefore, a Mormon can say that a person is granted heaven solely on Jesus' atoning work.  And that person need not even believe in Jesus to attain it. 
(2)  Sometimes 'salvation' is used as a synonym for exaltation, as in "Plan of Salvation" (actually the plan of exaltation). 
The free gift of eternal life in heaven with God given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.
Sanctification
A term not commonly used in Mormonism.  They use it to refer to a state of saintliness which is obtained as people purify themselves by overcoming sin. 
(1)  Believers in Jesus' saving work are considered saints by God (sanctified).  This refers to our status as citizens of heaven, while living on earth. 
(2)  While on earth, the continuing work of the Holy Spirit resulting in the strengthening of our faith and becoming increasingly Christ-like (holy). 
(3)  The final change that occurs on Judgment Day where believers are forever separated from their sinful nature and are thereby made holy.
Sin
A word not commonly used by Mormons since Mormonism has a weak view of sin.  "But all of us are guilty of sin to some degree" (Gospel Principles, p. 117).  Instead of talking about sin, they use words such as bad habits, infractions, mistakes, and poor judgments. 
Any violation of God's commands, whether in thought, word, or deed.  Includes any and all trespass, transgression, iniquity, wickedness, etc.  Includes sins of omission (not doing what we are commanded) as well as commission (doing what we are commanded not to do).
Plan of Salvation
In general, Mormonism.   Specifically, an intricate plan outlining a process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Steps in this process include becoming perfect, temple endowment, and celestial marriage.  All the laws and ordinances of Mormonism embody the plan.
 
God's plan of sacrificing his perfect son so that all who believe in him are saved (given eternal life).  John 3:14-17:  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

738 posted on 12/05/2008 1:18:20 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
you are in no position to tell me or broncobilly what reality is, you are not God.

Why does your Organization® send out so many missionaries; trying to tell folks what IT'S 'reality' is then?

Your Organization® is not GOD, either.

739 posted on 12/05/2008 1:19:52 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
...however, we only worship the god of Abraham, and of Issac and of Jacob, he is our God.

Delf, there's FOUR Book of Mormon verses that explicitly talk about worshipping Jesus. (Do I need to trot them out for you?) That doesn't include the many verses in the Bible that explicitly discusses the same thing.

Bruce R. McConkie, LDS apostle, recognized this as well: “The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship...No one can worship the Father without worshipping the Son… It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son.” (McConkie, MD, p. 848)

So, again, how many "gods" do you worship?

That is a logical conclusion, but it is not "doctrine". The conclusion is based on the promise in the bible that we can become heirs to the kingdom then it is logical that God may have inherited the kingdome the same way, but it's just a theory.

So do Lorenzo Snow couplet "theories" galore get published (along with Smith 1844 funeral sermons), commonly get placed in all the major basic theology publications of the LDS church? BYU prof Stephen Robinson, in his book, HOW WIDE THE DIVIDE, conceded this was official LDS doctrine...just not canonized.

That's because, the Bible says so... Romans 8:16-17. if you are an heir to the kingdom of God...

So an "heir" = godhood, eh? Then, since God created Hell and since He is leaving this piece of "real estate" to his "heirs", Lucifer & his demons (& Hitler & many others)...I guess Lucifer, demons, Hitler, etc. also are "gods" according to your definition of "heir," eh?

740 posted on 12/05/2008 1:20:09 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser
I could spend lots of time telling you where I think you are not in touch with reality, but I prefer to spend my time in useful endeavors.

And yet here you are; soldiering away.

741 posted on 12/05/2008 1:20:24 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
We believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

As well as a bunch of other stuff.

742 posted on 12/05/2008 1:21:20 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Good question about 1 Nephi 14:10. The following may be instructive for you:

In chapter 14, verse 10, however, Nephi describes the archetypal categories: “There are save two churches only”—the church of the Lamb of God, or Zion; and the church of the devil, or Babylon. “Whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”

Apocalyptic literature is dualistic. Since it deals with types, everything boils down to opposing principles: love and hate, good and evil, light and dark. There are no gray areas in apocalyptic writing. In this sense, there are only two categories in the realm of religion: religion that will save and religion that won't. The former is the Church of the Lamb, and the latter, no matter how well intentioned, is a counterfeit.

In the historical sense, though, only one entity can be the great and abominable church. Well-intentioned churches would thus not qualify as the mother of abominations described in 1 Nephi 13. They do not slay the saints of God nor seek to control civil governments nor pursue wealth, luxury, and sexual immorality.

In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there are Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his lifestyle, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his lifestyle. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.
http://farms.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=7&num=1&id=168

This is just a snippet. The whole article is excellent.

Now, I've answered a number of your questions, but yet you have failed to answer mine in post 551. If you would like to continue our little “give & take”, then you need to give as much as you take.

743 posted on 12/05/2008 1:21:21 PM PST by Reno232
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To: colorcountry
Nah... "Stick and stones may break my bones..

But words just piss me off."

744 posted on 12/05/2008 1:22:10 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: AuntB; Marysecretary
Listen to me....This is about Mormon bashing...

Listen to me. My previous post to you contained NO DOGMA on my part or on that of Christians! All I cited were Mormon leaders, who were engaging in Christian bashing. This is about Christian bashing...and Mormons and their allies to point a finger at so-called "Mormon bashing" -- yet who will not apologize for or rebuke Mormon leaders who have engaged in Christian bashing, are being downright inconsistent.

It's time for all to be consistent. When we were little kids & teens, we were inconsistent. It's time to grow up.

745 posted on 12/05/2008 1:23:42 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Reno232
Now, most would accept the stick of Judah to be the Bible.

Not MOST Christians; but MOST MORMON sure would, for that is what they've been TAUGHT - it's NOT what the CONTEXT shows!


BTW...

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Israel - 1948

746 posted on 12/05/2008 1:25:15 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
My question was whether the Protestant religions were heretic as the Catholics stated.

Translation: we Mormons are getting TIRED of this thread. Let's see if we can steer it to a Catholic/Protestant fight.

747 posted on 12/05/2008 1:26:18 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Jibaholic
Jibaholic: You both (1) used an inaccruate - and Mormon - bible, and (2) left out the context. The NASB is more accurate. Here is the full quote. There heresy of believing in other gods is clear.

Um the KJV is an inaccurate bible, LOL! The bible says there are other gods, just that we are not to worship them.

DU: Pride = Thinking you know what we believe even when we deny that "that" is what we believe. Jibaholic: Pride= wanting to be like God.

There are many ways to be proud, thinking you know more than you do is one of them.

Jibaholic: That goes back to original sin. Genesis 3:5.
4(C)The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


You left off the trailer for that one...
22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Note that this is one place where Satan actually told the truth to sneak in the lie about not dying. The sin was disobedience not wanting to be like God we are commanded to emulate him.
748 posted on 12/05/2008 1:27:02 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

I don’t read your posts, but perhaps they will influence your crew of Mormon bashers.

I don’t CARE about their dogma. I don’t CARE about YOUR dogma.


749 posted on 12/05/2008 1:27:42 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: AuntB
(The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)

(The right to the Priesthood in America: White men - day one; Black men - 1978; Women - not yet girls)

750 posted on 12/05/2008 1:28:31 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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